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Klaus
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 8:45 am: | 
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Hi
I have for some time been wondering how dangerous Whitechapel/Spitalfields really was at the time of the murderes.
Some books tell us that it was quit common for people outside the area (often wealthy people) to go to Whitechapel when they where looking for a "good" time (say: alcohol, prostitutes etc.).
Other books claim that the area was so dangerous that even the police would hesitate to enter some of the streets. If this was the case one would not expect any-one to go in there on their own free will, because one would not be sure to get out again alive. Even if you dressed as the locals you would be in danger og being spotted as an outsider.
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1235
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 11:00 am: |
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Klaus,
Whitechapel would have been as dangerous as anywhere else in London.
Ive always look on with suspicion the statement that Dorset st was so dangerous even the police left it alone. Here in Leicester there are certain streets that the police will not go down in uniform. This is due to racial tensions. This doesnt mean that there is no police presence, there is. Just that they're incognito. I feel the same stood for Dorset st.
That said, Im sure the odd Rosser patrolled down there in full uniform on regular occassions.
As for dangerous Whitechapel.....statistics show you are more likely to be assaulted in Westminister.
.....dodgy politicians you see. John Presscott knows who Im talking about !
Monty
Prince Charming, Prince Charming,
Ridicule is nothing to be scared of
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 485
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 2:42 pm: |
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Monty,
really that's interesting. was dorset st a particularly Jewish area do you mean?
Jenni
ps your not the guy with the eggs are you?
"Think things, not words." - O.W. Holmes jr
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Alan Sharp
Chief Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 619
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 4:13 pm: |
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I recently read a fantastic article from the New York World from sometime in late November 1888, sorry don't remember the date, comparing Whitechapel with similar districts in New York. The author pretty much said that Whitechapel was no worse than other similar districts, and particularly that the main thoroughfares were good respectable working-class areas, before going on to describe some of the effects of poverty there.
If anyone in the states has access to a newspaper library and can find this article it would be an excellent addition to the Press Reports. I only saw a partial reprint of it, not the entire article.
"Everyone else my age is an adult, whereas I am merely in disguise."
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Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 939
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 5:16 pm: |
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From what I"ve read a lot of Whitechapel was quite poor although like numbers of places in London there were parts of it that were quite wealthy.The area immediately around Dorset Street seems to have been particularly run down with all those doss houses but other areas nearby were reasonably respectable for example Goulston Street.
There was a lot going on too among the local workers and the unemployed-workers clubs etc and big public meetings almost every week sometimes.
Natalie |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2680
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 6:55 pm: |
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We probably have to factor in a bit of bragging - "My street's harder than your street."
Or like that Monty Python sketch : "We were really poor. We used to have to wash in puddle in road."
Robert |
Alex Chisholm
Detective Sergeant
Username: Alex
Post Number: 112
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 8:28 pm: |
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You were lucky, Robert.
We used to dream of washing in t’puddle. 
All the Best
alex |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 411
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 8:43 pm: |
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I don't know if this is the best way to show the possible dangers of the East End, but here goes:
One of the denizens of that East End was a young chap named Charles Spencer Chaplin (born April 1889, so thus just missing the Autumn of terror).
Chaplin does have a degree of contact with our Jack - his autobiography mentions that he once asked for a glass of water from a publican (yes,
he claims it was George Chapman).
In 1916-1917 Chaplin showed his first spurt of artistic genius in the movies with a series of comedies called the Mutual Comedies. One of the best of this twelve picture deal was EASY STREET
(co-starring Eric Campbell, Edna Purviance, and Albert Austin). It deals with Chaplin joining the police force (no town is named - it can be in America) but he is given the worst street in the district to work in ("Easy Street"). It is ruled by gangs, but the chief honcho is Campbell who can beat up the local cops and does. My guess is that Campbell's character is based on street toughs from the East End of London, and possibly based on some incidents the young Charlie saw.
Before I leave this, I should add that in 1896 there was an example of the type of street violence that Eric Campbell's character is able to demonstrate in EASY STREET. There was a murder of a retired engineer named Henry Smith at Muswell Hill, a suburb of London. It was done by two burglers named Albert Milsom and Henry Fowler.
Milsom confessed in court, in an attempt to save his neck at the expense of Fowler. Fowler, a strong, burly man, had already had to be subdued by half a dozen men when captured. He attacked Milsom during a recess in the trial, and fought with a similar number of policemen, all but destroying the dock he and Milsom had been standing in. Both men were found guilty and hanged.
Jeff |
Steve Laughery
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 1:59 pm: |
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The Whitechapel described by Jack London around 1902 sounds pretty rough and tumble to me. Usually when there is that much hunger and desperation in a crowded city setting, one would expect to find a pretty high crime rate.
When "fops" used to go "slumming" here in the American West (weatlhy swells looking for adventure in mining camps or the opium dens of some Pacific coast city) they were often accompanied by body guards - or, at least, a large (armed?) friend or two.
Steve |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1237
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 4:39 am: |
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Guys,
Hold on.
Im not saying it wasnt a rough area. Hanging baskets off the street lamps and window boxes maybe not. As Steve above points out, hunger and desperation sometimes triggers acts of violence.
But to depict Whitechapel and surrounding area as lawless is wrong. There were many upstanding and respectful citizens (the vigilance commitee supports this) who acted in a responsible manner.
If this wasnt the case why did these murders trigger (along with sensationalist reporting granted) such a frenzied atmosphere within the area?
Monty
Prince Charming, Prince Charming,
Ridicule is nothing to be scared of
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2681
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 9:32 am: |
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According to this, part of a long article from 1904, some people lived there by preference :
Robert |
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 947
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 4:40 pm: |
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God chaps!!!!
Reckon that ok it was dangerous!!! seriosly so but have you walked there in the last few weeks???!!!!!! Tell ya............nothing changes!!!!
x Suzi |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1240
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 4:07 am: |
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Suzi,
I have.
Didnt feel threatend at all. Never have.
Put me up west and the hairs rise, back streets off Regent St especially near the Glassblower pub. I dont know why. Must be the Socialist in me.
No, no, not Tatchell !!
Monty
Prince Charming, Prince Charming,
Ridicule is nothing to be scared of
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Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 940
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 9:12 am: |
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I agree with Monty.The people seem friendly.I like the atmosphere.Parts of West London can be much more threatening,but there are parts that are OK too.
Natalie |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 544
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 10:03 am: |
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I've not walked Whitechapel at night (except on tour), but I have walked around during the day and never felt the least bit threatened. I find that generally people mind their own business if you mind yours. I've found this to be true in London generally. That's not meant as a putdown. It's a compliment.
I've often said that I never feel unsafe in London. There have been a few times when I've second guessed myself about being where I am. I walked with my family across Green Park late at night in pitch dark last March and felt uneasy, thinking "I would not want to do this alone." I'm sure I'm somewhat naive about the danger, but I grew up in and live in large US cities. Believe me, and danger in London is miniscule in comparison. Just guard your wallet/handbag!
Andy S. |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1865
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 4:02 pm: |
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Hi all,
I have to agree with most contributors here. OK, so I have only been to London once -- mind you -- but the general impression from my excursions in Whitechapel/Aldgate (once on a JtR walk in the evening and once during the day), was that it was no more threatening than walking in my own neighbourhood at home.
To tell you the truth, I didn't feel threatened at all.
On the other hand, one Saturday night I made the mistake to walk back to my B&B through Picadilly and Soho (after having been to a very pleasant restaurant). Now, that was a scary experience!
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
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Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 950
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 4:34 pm: |
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Hi Monty!!!
Ok who's going to threaten you then baby!
Glenn
If you WILL walk through Soho!!!!
All!
Actually I took a Jtr virgin up last month a) didnt get lost ...!
and b) had a great time with no hassle at all!!!...tell you what the funniest thing was when stopping in for a curry in Brick Lane cos the Sheraz was closed!!!!! for the first time in 116 yrs! went to another and then a guy (resident I guess!!)
came past a) throwing dirt out of the flower beds into our window!!! and b) a guy went by pushing a trolley full of dead and still bleeding!!! sheep carcases!!!!! I said they were being placed for that nights JTR tours!!!! Hate to say it.....think she believed me!!!!!
Anyway!!! I LOVE IT AND HAVE NEVER HAD ANY 'SERIOUS' horrors!!!! nothing changes.......especially the loos in the 10 Bells!
Suzi |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1242
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 4:03 am: |
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Suzi,
Caz apparently !!
You use the loos at the Bell?
Brave girl.
Monty
Prince Charming, Prince Charming,
Ridicule is nothing to be scared of
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2684
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 4:08 am: |
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Suzi, pretty embarrassing if a man with a damp sponge comes in to erase the graffiti.
Robert |
d g cornelius
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 11:16 pm: |
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Ripperrati:
Apocryphal quotation from S. Holmes: "Watson, I always carry firearms east of Aldgate." Have always followed the advice religiously myself. Can't be too careful in Canary Wharf.
respex,
d g cornelius |
Steve Laughery
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 4:37 pm: |
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Hi All -
I found the following in the Brooklyn (NY) Daily Eagle, Friday the 13 of January, 1893. It originally came from the St. Louis (MO) Globe-Democrat. It concerns Whitechapel, crime, "slumming" (sort of), and how an American minister dealt with an "unpleasant" situation.
Enjoy.
SLUMMING IN LONDON.
-------------------
A Memphis Clergyman Narrowly Escaped Death.
-------------------
"I had an adventure in London last spring of a very unpleasant nature," said Rev. Theodore Swain, a Memphis minister, now a guest of the Laclede (?). "I was wandering about the city sight seeing one day, and finally found myself near the notorious Whitechapel district. I was approached by a beggar who appeared to be a complete physical wreck. I questioned him, and his story was so pitiful that I concluded to investigate it. He said that he lodged in the next block, and thither we went. He led me into a gloomy old building and up three pairs of rickety stairs to a little stuffy room, lit only by a dirty skylight. Once in there he locked the door, laid aside his crutches, pulled off his gray wig and stood up a powerful six footer in the prime of life. 'Well,' said I, 'I see that you are a fraud; what do you want with me?' He replied that he wanted my purse, watch and chain, and to enforce his claim produced an ugly looking knife. 'It will do you no good to cry out,' he said, 'for you cannot be heard in the street, and no one in this building will come to your aid.' I had sized him up pretty close and concluded that he was bluffing - that he would not dare kill me in the very heart of London, so I assumed a careless air and told him that if he robbed me he would have to kill me first, and that he might just as well get at it. 'Oh, I know that you have got a pistol, but I'm not afraid of it,' he said. 'Most Americans carry pistols for just such cattle as you,' I replied, with all the coolness I could assume. 'Now, if you are not afraid of it, why don't you get to work?' I saw that he was cowed, and, throwing my hand to my hip pocket, I stepped forward and said firmly, 'Give me that knife.' He handed it to me without a word, unlocked the door and held it open for me to pass out. No, I had no pistol - never carry one - but I made no more visits to the dens of London beggars without a burly officer at my elbow."
Steve |
Steve Laughery
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 6:36 pm: |
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Robert & Alex
Speaking of Monty Python, remember the sketch where Michael Palin (as a Cockney housewife) remembers in an interview:
"Kipling Road was your typical East End street. People were in and out of each others' 'ouses - with each others' property - all day long! Yes, they were a cheery lot; cheery, and violent."
Steve} |
Steve Laughery
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 3:36 pm: |
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Hi All,
I certainly do not mean to insult any East Enders, or suggest that their home is a dangerous or undesirable place to visit. On the contrary, I was in Whitechapel 20+ years ago with two friends. We walked everywhere, took in the sights, and drank a small-lake-worth of beer. No one robbed or cheated us; in fact, everyone I can remember was quite nice.
But is the East End of today all that similar to the East End of the 1880s and 1890s? From what I've read, many - not all, (of course not!), but many - of the families there were poor, unemployed, ill-fed, and living under cramped, crowded, dirty conditions. When that happens to a significant percentage of any population, there is usually crime; there is usually violence.
Just look at what we've all read about Jack's victims. How many times did those poor women get lied to, cheated, robbed, dumped, deserted, or threatened? They sometimes had no place to sleep. How often were they arrested for being drunk, loud, and disorderly? I wonder how many times they were really beaten to within an inch of their lives over something like a piece of soap ... I realize not everyone led such a life, but many people did. It all sounds very tough to me.
If I were to travel to Dodge City Kansas this summer, I'm quite sure I would have a wonderful time as a tourist. That doesn't mean it would have been smart to go "Slumming" in the Long Branch Saloon in the 1870s. That probably would have been a good way to get insulted, robbed, beaten up, or simply shot dead by some drunk-out-of-his-mind cowboy with a chip on his shoulder.
At certain times, in certain places, under certain circumstances, some people act like that.
Steve
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klaus
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 3:01 pm: |
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Thanks for all your wonderful answers. I've been away for a bit of holiday so I've only seen the answers now.
I've walked Whitechapel several times myself - even at nights. And I have never felt threatened. But when I lived in Sidcup for a period I was beaten up by a gang of young lads (for no reason but waiting for the bus).And I reccon Sidcup is supposed to be a nice neighbourhood.
So I guess you can't tell if a neighbourhood is rough just by pointing out that it is mainly populated by poor people.
And Whitechapel surely has changed a lot since the 1880's.
Anyway...the reason for asking the question was to find out whether it would be fair to count out people from outside the area in the search of our killer. I guess not.
-- Klaus |
Dustin Gould
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 12:54 am: |
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Hi Klaus,
I've read statistic-based articles, that have actually compared Whitechapel, to places like "Hell's Kitchen" New York, and even "Compton" in South Central Los Angles. Although gun crime was at a low in Whitechapel, its overall crime rate was just as high, if not worse, than alot of our modern, metropolitian cities.
All the best,
Dustin Gould |
NC
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 11:30 pm: |
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Klaus,
In order to answer your question fully, it may be useful to define "dangerous". Does this mean one would be likely to experience: assault (minor or serious), theft, robbery etc. in Whitechapel/Spitalfields? More likely than other parts of London?
My impression from what I've read of the times is that low level street and domestic violence was extremely common whereas murder was a rarity. The key elements of the JtR murders are so far removed from the day to day baseline crime level that I think it is difficult to draw any conclusions about the fiend from overall crime rates. I certainly wouldn't exclude any suspect on geographic grounds without some direct evidence.
It is certainly helpful though to understand as much as posible about social conditions and context of the period.
Neale |
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