| Author |
Message |
    
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2615
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 4:20 am: |       |
Found this item in the "Times" for Oct 4th 1888. Apologies if it's been posted before :
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2616
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 5:18 am: | |
And this from Oct 1st :
Robert |
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 904
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 11:12 am: | |
Hi Robert!
Kove the 'I'll Whitechapel ya!' will add that to my armoury of things to say at awkward times!!
Cheers
Suzi |
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 905
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 11:13 am: | |
Love it even!!!!! This chap is a bit of a Kove tho!!!!!
Suzi |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2618
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 11:32 am: | |
Suzi, I've found several rather strange and funny items since I've been searching the "Times" and I'll try to put them onto a pub thread some time.
Robert |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 253
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 8:20 pm: | |
Robert,
I think this is the second newspaper report you have put in, that talks of soldiers or reservists
demonstrating very aggressive behaviour against street women and others.I think the other report concerned a soldier named "Henry Love"(??).
I may have missed all the past discussions, but it seems to me Love and Taylor look like really prime candidates for JTR.
Now I know a torn "Sussex Regiment'(??) envelope - again from memory - was allegedly found near the body of one JTR victim.
Given the heated excitement at the time of Taylor's incident, it seems extraordinary for Taylor to have acted as he did - if he could control such behaviour.
Soldiers from neighbouring barracks were paraded in a line-up for witnesses elsewhere after one murders but nothing eventuated.
All quite amazing!
Keep up the good work Robert. At this rate you'll become a worthy lieutenant to Chris Scott!
JOHN RUFFELS. |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 402
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 27, 2004 - 12:33 am: | |
Hi all,
I would not be quick to be amazed that there could be a person named Harry LOVE. One of the aliase used by the notorious wife-murderer, George Joseph "Brides-in-the-Bath" Smith was George Love. He married one of his more lucky victims (one he only cheated and did not kill) under that name in 1898. As Smith was born in 1872, he may very well have heard of Harry Love and decided to use the name, especially as his victims were victimized by his sexual and emotional powers of persuasion.
[By the way, having a "nice" family name means nothing in crime. Three 19th Century murderers who ended up hanged were Daniel Good (ex. 1842), William Dove (ex. 1856), and Charles Peace (ex. 1879).]
Recently (for the last year and a half) my reading outside of true crime and the Ripper has been concentrating on the history of the 13 colonies and the early American republic (1584 - 1825). I have begun noticing an odd expression that pops up in pre-1776 America, referring to the political stirrings in urban settings of the early blue collar workers. These men, mostly in trades like printing, carpentry, butcher shops, etc. are all referred to as "leather apron" men. One of them (possibly the most successful one of all) was Benjamin Franklin - who certainly got to the top. For numerous references to this particular labeling of these pre-Revolutionary Americans, I recommend Gary B. Nash's THE URBAN CRUCIBLE: THE NORTHERN SEAPORTS AND THE ORIGINS OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION (Cambridge, Massachusetts, London, England: Harvard University Press, c.1979, 1986). See such references as on pages 76, 164, 166, 170.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2619
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 27, 2004 - 11:30 am: | |
Hi John and Jeff
John, thanks, but I don't remember posting anything about Henry Love. Maybe it was Chris?
Chris's lieutenant? I wouldn't be able to keep up with him!
Jeff, interesting about the leather apron men. What was the term for the white collar sort of person, then?
Robert |
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 917
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 27, 2004 - 5:05 pm: | |
Hi all
Sexual and emotional powers of persuasion eh......sounds quite a charmer!!!!Well done Robert ...keep it up!!!!
Cheers
suzi |
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 918
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 27, 2004 - 5:12 pm: | |
As to the Sussex regiment thing seem (late on Sunday night) to recall an Annie connection here pills etc etc ..and of course there was Martha,Pearly Poll etc etc (which of course after much dubious shenaniggans came to nothing!) and the 'soldiers'!!!!
Cheers
Suzi |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 405
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 27, 2004 - 6:20 pm: | |
Hi Robert,
So far I have not found any class nickname for upper class white collar (here white ruffle) workers. Obviously the "Leather apron" nickname was meant to be a negative one, denoting a lower economic type. My guess is that a similar design was involved in the use of the name in 1888, though there suggesting a butcher of foreign (immigrant - Jewish?) extraction as a suspect, not a middle class "respectable" type. A Kosminski or Ostrog, rather than a Druitt or Stephen or Gull.
Jeff |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2627
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 27, 2004 - 6:39 pm: | |
Hi Jeff
Interesting that after the "Dear Boss" letter's "Jack the Ripper" more or less replaced "Leather Apron" as a nickname for the murderer, some people continued to believe both that the letter was genuine and that the killer was a Polish Jew - when it's obvious that the letter couldn't have come from a Polish Jew (if that term is meant to denote a recently arrived immigrant).
Robert |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1216
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 28, 2004 - 5:33 am: | |
Robert,
Re Times Oct 4th 1888.
Would you (or anyone) happen to know where Clare Market or Catherine st is.
Its just that something mentioned in that article has struck major alarm bells with me.
Maybe conincedence but.....
Monty
Prince Charming, Prince Charming,
Ridicule is nothing to be scared of |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2629
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 28, 2004 - 6:47 am: | |
Hi Monty
There's some info at http://www.victorianlondon.org/
Robert |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1217
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 28, 2004 - 7:32 am: | |
Robert,
Many thanks.
Seems as if this incident happend near The Strand.
Back to my papers now !!
Cheers again,
Monty
Prince Charming, Prince Charming,
Ridicule is nothing to be scared of |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2631
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 28, 2004 - 3:36 pm: | |
I don't know whether this has already been posted.
"THE TIMES" 7th Dec 1888
Robert |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 536
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 28, 2004 - 5:25 pm: | |
Regarding Taylor: I wish the article gave information on what time of day the attack took place. Presumably if happened during the day since it was in the Market. This sounds more like a copycat "London Monster" (William Rhenwick) assault than a Ripper incident. Sort of a precursor to Cutbush and Collicut. Maybe the Ripper hype prompted such "Monster outrages" as it stirred up memories or tales of the London Moster attacks of a century earlier.
Andy S. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2643
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 2:14 pm: | |
This guy seems to have got off lightly :
"THE TIMES' 13th Sept 1888.
Robert |
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 924
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 3:43 pm: | |
Wow Robert!!!
This is of course what you get for nosing around in these old rags!!!!!!! They're wonderful!!! Did I tell you that I've got a copy (uncut!) of Punch Sept 22nd 1888 with the Blind Mans Buff cartoon fabulously intact!!!!! and no you cant have it! Its mine!!!dont you know!! Mine!!
Cheers
Suzi
Smile!! and if all else fails....REALLY smile |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2645
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 4:34 pm: | |
Hi Suzi
I love the adverts in these old publications.
Saw a couple in "The Times" :
Accidents - hospital wanted
LOOK TO YOUR DRAINS
Robert |
Alex Chisholm
Detective Sergeant
Username: Alex
Post Number: 111
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 11:41 am: | |
Hi Andy
This is how the Daily Telegraph, 4 Oct. 1888, page 5 reported the Taylor incident:
"At Bow-street, yesterday, Henry Taylor, an army reserve man, was charged before Mr. Vaughan with assaulting Mary Ann Perry, and with threatening to stab her. - The prosecutrix said that the prisoner acted indecently in her presence about three o'clock in Clare-market. She went on and spoke to her sister, and the accused came up and knocked her down. He also produced a clasp knife with a blade about 3 in. long, and threatened to rip her up as the others had been. A crowd collected, and after threatening to stab any one who approached him he ran away, and was followed by a number of women calling out "Leather Apron." He got into Catherine-street, where he was stopped by Police-constable Benjamin Betts, 190 E, to whom he said, "Keep the cows off me, or I'll rip them all open." Betts took the knife away from him, and, seeing that the prosecutrix was bleeding at the nose, took him into custody for assaulting her. On the way to the station the crowd increased, and it was all that Betts, assisted by another constable, could do to get the prisoner to the station unmolested. There he was searched, and a razor was found on him. - Mr. Vaughan sentenced the defendant to two months' imprisonment for the assault, and ordered him to find one surety in £5 to keep the peace for three months."
A bit behind the times, I know, but hope that helps anyway.
Best Wishes
alex
|
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 927
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 1:16 pm: | |
Hi Robert!!!
WONDERFUL!!!!
Perhaps these two are related!!!!!!!?
looking forward to trawling throught the Punch and coming up with some ads to rival these!!!
best
Suzi |
Chad Gatlin
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 3:16 pm: | |
I am new to this site, but have become extremely interested in the Ripper crimes since the reading of Patricia Cornwell's book "Jack the Ripper: Case Closed". Although Cornwell, has not completely convinced me, i believe her theory has some merit. I have written this to point out something that i have found browsing through photographs of Sickert's art. Although his infamous "Ripper Paintings" did not start until 20 years after the spree, i have found that in each of his paintings shortly following the murders that i have seen, you can find a figure in the shadows or somewhere in the paintings (unnoticed by the other characters in the paintings i might add)of a figure resembling the description of JTR. I thought this was interesting and I wanted to submit it to see what you all thought, having studied this subject more than I. |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 443
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 10:31 am: | |
hi Chad
why not look on the sickert or cornwall boards
under suspects and ripper media?
Cheers
Jennifer
Uncle Bulgaria,He can remember the days when he wasn't behind The Times.....
|
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 931
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 03, 2004 - 10:57 am: | |
Robert!
Right have the brute in front of me.......what about...
NUBIAN....Liquid waterproof blacking,no brushes required,gives a brilliant finish..lasts a week in all weathers!
This one is great!.....
TO STOUT PEOPLE
Mr Russells aim is to ERADICATE, to cure the disease and that his treatment is the true one seems beyond all doubt.Book 116 pages notes how to pleasntly and rapidly cure obesity first 3 wks 3lb loss!!!
WOW! will take this to work and digicam some others!!! funnier and a damn sight quicker than trying to read this type!!!!.............and then type!
Suzi
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2667
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 03, 2004 - 4:14 pm: | |
Hi Suzi
Yes, good stuff. I have a reproduction of a book called Stories of the Railway by V.L. Whitechurch (first published 1912). Inside are some ads. One mentions a name we on casebook know :
CONCERNING TATCHO
When President Lincoln was asked to take the wrong side of a case he said, "I could not do it. All the time while talking to that jury I should be thinking, 'Lincoln, you're a liar, you're a liar,' and I believe I should forget myself and say it out loud."
Truth and honesty made Lincoln the giant he became.
There is no advertisement in the world that can compare with that which comes from the reputation of always and everywhere being absolutely reliable.
When Mr. Geo. R. Sims discovered the hair grower, he christened it under the Romany name of Tatcho.
Why?
Because this word Tatcho literally means what the hair grower truly and honestly is, that is, "trusty," "honest," "genuine."
All that is asked is that you give Tatcho a chance to lay the foundation to a growth of natural thick and luxuriant hair. Give Tatcho this chance - let it prove to you that it lives up to its worthy name - Tatcho, the trusty, honest hair grower.
Ask your Chemist.
THE HAIR GROWER
TATCHO
"Trusty," "Honest," "Genuine."}
The advert is accompanied by a drawing of a woman clearly labelled "The Goddess of Truth". Above her is the inscription "Truth shall be thy warrant" and the "goddess" is gazing into a looking glass which bears the words "Tatcho the trusty, honest, hair grower".
There is also an illustration of Mr. Geo. R. Sims - a hairy man - full head of hair, beard and moustache. I believe this is "our" George R. Sims.
Robert
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2668
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 03, 2004 - 5:45 pm: | |
In fact, Sims even did this sort of thing in "The Times" :
Robert |
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 935
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 03, 2004 - 6:15 pm: | |
Robert!!!!
Obviously Mr Sims was an hairy man.........and the would be coupon fillers were ansmoooooooooooooooooooooooth man!
Suzi |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 256
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 03, 2004 - 7:26 pm: | |
Robert,
Reminds me of that English television comedy skit in which a "preacher" giving a sermon from the pulpit begins..."Esau, He was an Hairy Man..."
Your interest in George R Sims brings to mind that Ripper-related incident Sims was very fond of telling in his many Ripper "now -it -can -be -revealed " -type stories.
The one where a late night coffee-stall owner engages a customer in conversation. The stall-owner remarks about The Ripper being quiet lately, and the customer suspiciously says something like: " You will probably hear of a double event today..." or something like that.
The point is, the stall-owner later claimed the suspicious customer looked exactly like the portrait of George R Sims on one of his books in a shop window!
Now, Robert, think: what sort of person would know if there had been a double murder before the general public?
Mortuary attendants,policemen, close witnesses and their relatives (who would be entreated by the police to keep quiet)... and journalists -especially journalists- like Sims - with excellent senior police contacts!
Now, I am not saying Sims was The Ripper, but I AM suggesting Sims was very probably the suspicious coffee-stall customer.
I cannot, however, explain the spot of blood allegedly seen (in a dark street under a street lamp?) by the stall-owner on Mr Suspicious' shirt-cuff. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2669
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2004 - 5:20 am: | |
Hi John
Re the spot of blood, or whatever it was - wouldn't these coffee stall owners have had a brazier or something similar, on which to boil the kettle? The light from this may have enabled the owner to get a good look at the man - and his cuffs.
Robert |
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 942
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2004 - 10:13 am: | |
John!!!!!!
My point exactly!!!!!!! Beyond the Fringe I recall!!!,all this stuff about kettles, cuffs and spots of blood is enough to start a theory here!
Suzi |
