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Kris Law
Inspector
Username: Kris
Post Number: 342
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 10:39 am: | 
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When the police were searching all the houses in the Whitechapel area, what would happen if they came across someone who owned a quantity of books on the Occult?
Would this person be taken in for questioning? Was this enough to raise an alarm? Did the police even take the notion of the killings being down for Occult reasons seriously?
-K |
Thomas C. Wescott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 114
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 10:09 pm: |
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Kris,
Actually, although there's nothing in the official documentation to suggest the police ever considered an occult motive, they weren't inclined to ignore any clue that came to them that wasn't completely proposterous (i.e. escaped gorilla). Actually, it's possible the mutilations to Eddowes' face got them thinking 'black magic', but that's only postulation on my part.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Thomas C. Wescott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 117
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 11:08 pm: |
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I thought I'd mention that if you wanted to further explore the subject of 'JTR as black magician', or discuss D'Onston as a suspect, you should visit www.jtrforums.com (while continuing to visit the Casebook, of course). From what I understand, discussion of such stuff is not exactly encouraged at the Casebook. Ivor Edwards, author of 'Jack the Ripper's Black Magic Rituals' runs the jtrforums.com site, along with Tim Moseley, whose name you'll know from Ripper Notes if you're a subscriber.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Howard Brown
Sergeant
Username: Howard
Post Number: 12
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 11:29 pm: |
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An update to that URL given by Tom:
www.jtrforums.co.uk
Mr. Law's question is somewhat important on a couple of levels.
Its my own opinion that had the Police encountered anyone with BOOKS on ritualism and/or occultism,they would have been dismissed as "loonies" or " bored idle rich ".
Now had they encountered a cache of knives used in rituals,and all the bizarre candles,symbols,and such,I think they would have raised an eyebrow or two.
Ironically,in the 21st Century,we take occultism far more seriously than the 19 Century world did.
Speaks volumes on how this motive,one of the most underlooked in not only this crime,but many other crimes,has "evolved".
Thanks for placing the original post,Kris.... |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1003
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 4:44 am: |
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Hi All,
I have just been thinking again about the state of the rippers mind and whether anyone will ever know more about it from the evidence we have left-it amounts mostly to the photos of the victims and the post mortem reports.
I agree that the strange marks on Catherine Eddowes face seem to be symbols[inverted triangles
etc]
If indeed JtR was a paranoid shizophrenic which is a possibility - we have the prime suspects of the senior police at the time Kosminski and Druitt who either suffer from this illness[Kosminski] or have a close relative who suffers from it[Druitt"s mother].
A feature of the illness as the psychosis attacks is often an abnormal degree of interest and reliance on the occult and other bizarre religions/quack doctors etc.
As the attack of psychosis develops[sometimes swiftly sometimes more stealthily] the person develops very strange delusions about the paranormal "powers" giving them "instructions" etc.
This is where I think the markings on Catherine"s face may still yield clues about his state of mind and who or what was influencing him.
It could have been the occult-something sybolic he believed he was being "instructed" to do.
I do know that any religion can be distorted in this way by a person suffering from this illness.
Its finding out what the symbols meant thats the catch 22.In the 60"s various experiments were carried out by some of the doctors working in the field.They involved the doctors themselves taking LSD as it was thought to be the drug that would give them the breakthrough in understanding the condition.However it didnt give them the breakthrough required to understand the "meaning of the sybols"-though it did give more insight into the illness itself and may have led to the development of the drugs now used-with varying degrees of success to treat the condition[not everyone appears to be able to be relied upon to take their medication which is one of the main drawbacks .
Anyway to return to JtR and the Occult yes I do believe he could well have dabbled in it -which would just show how dangerous it can be and disastrous for others if the person has started to "lose their mind".
Natalie |
Howard Brown
Sergeant
Username: Howard
Post Number: 13
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 9:36 pm: |
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Dear Ms.Severn....Symbols ( chevrons ) cut into the face of one victim is something which can be traced to the occult.
Without stirring up the bees nest, this makes far more sense than a clothier's calling card..
And,as a reminder for us all,as bizarre or insane a belief in hocus-pocus symbols is, people do believe in 'em.....To a lesser and far safer degree,there aren't hundreds,but hundreds of thousands of people, in the Western Civilization that believe in signs,symbols,special numbers,and other mumbo-jumbo when playing what we call in the US,"the numbers", the daily lottery.....eviscerations,they ain't,but they are very similar to the darker and more deadly elements of Occultism. |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1962
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 10:17 pm: |
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Howard,
Everything makes more sense than a "clothier's calling card" (if you're referring to Radka's little suggestion)... believe you me.
However, as been said above. According to the internal police communication there is really nothing to suggest that the authorities and police officials at the time really suspected an occult motive.
They -- like the doctors -- seem to have been rather convinced of the fact that some sort of sexual homicidal maniac (perhaps with spells of religious mania) was on the loose, not an occult fanatic.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
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Howard Brown
Sergeant
Username: Howard
Post Number: 15
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 10:41 pm: |
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Hey Glenn...
Their speculations were based on "usual suspect" thinking,then. There's no penetration,only evisceration....
Religious mania spells ? I wonder how they came up with this as a motive..Do religious manic spellbound sorts rip out uteri? Were there ever murders committed with eviscerations,by bona fide religious fanatics, to refer to?
Before we drink [ again,,,],the 19
th century had a far more narrow set of goalposts to kick at then we do now. Motives of crimes usually have to accumulate to a certain point before it is catalogued within the "probable cause" list. As an example of Victorian thinking,no policeman in their right mind would have considered an Englishman to be involved with the Occult. THIS is why I have had "trouble" with Sir Robert Anderson's commentary on his identification of an immigrant as the killer. Why? Because Victorian thinking being at work, NO Englishman could have done these crimes. Imagine Sir Bob's answer if he was asked about the occult angle !!
One more thing,before I go get our beers....I know you are only repeating what you read,as to what their opinion on motive was. I was not being critical of you....now...drink !
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1965
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 10:54 pm: |
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Hey Howard,
"As an example of Victorian thinking,no policeman in their right mind would have considered an Englishman to be involved with the Occult. THIS is why I have had "trouble" with Sir Robert Anderson's commentary on his identification of an immigrant as the killer. Why? Because Victorian thinking being at work, NO Englishman could have done these crimes."
I know and I can agree on that one. The Victorians had their own demons to deal with, that's for sure.
I'll take a Guinness, please.
Next round is on me.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on July 31, 2004)
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
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Howard Brown
Sergeant
Username: Howard
Post Number: 33
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 9:32 pm: |
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Check this map out........ |
Howard Brown
Sergeant
Username: Howard
Post Number: 34
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 9:38 pm: |
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....okay, I ain't a cartographer !
The dotted line denotes the path back to London Hospital.....
I would appreciate an opinion or two or three on this...
Eerie,ain't it? I remember someone saying that it seemed to be a random pattern and nothing special....Perhaps.
What do you think ? Random or planned.... |
Thomas C. Wescott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 149
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 10:15 pm: |
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Howard,
I don't see anything in your design. What's it supposed to be? And about the authorities not being open to an Englishman practicing the occult, they weren't so naive, as many were Freemasons, etc. Let's not forget Warren's comment that a 'secret society' might have been behind the murders.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2000
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 8:05 am: |
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I tend to agree with Tom, here, Howard.
Seems like a random pattern to me -- if it even is a pattern to begin with...
I am not even inclined to buy the pattern stuff deriving from geographical profiling, and this looks even less.. hmmm... convincing.
Furthermore all patterns involving victims locations -- occult or not -- are quite dependent on how many -- and which -- victims we are prepared to attribute to the Ripper.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
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Howard Brown
Sergeant
Username: Howard
Post Number: 35
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 6:35 pm: |
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Glenn and Tom...
Ouch ! When I go wrong, man,do I go wrong !
My apologies to Rand Mcnally !!
Anyway........What I was trying to do was to
show a pattern,perhaps,by drawing a line,as
you can see,and rather poorly I admit,from
the 1st Canonical victim to the 5th ......[
starting at the top right,due left,zig zag
down to bottom right,over to the left and
then diagonally upward to Millers Court.
The dotted line is a path back to London
Hospital. It sort of looks like two
triangles....Okay,now fire away ! I put
on a football helmet !
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Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 202
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 7:57 pm: |
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I am, of course, familiar with the theory that the killings were placed to form a cross, but I don't understand the dotted line back to the hospital.
I know why you assume the killer was at the hospital, which of course is unproven, but either way the line doesn't make sense. You have it going from Stride's location, and if we include Stride in the series he wouldn't have walked home from that spot since he had to make it over to Miller's Court immediately after. And not that we could have even walked in a straight line over rooftops.
If you make lines back to the assumed origin point, Chapman's, MJK's and Eddowes' are more appropriate choices. Or all of them if you decide to do it that way. Singling Stride out as the only one that gets a dotted line doesn't make sense.
Plus I think the London Hospital was actually noticeably (if not significantly -- that's a judgment call either way) farther south on that map, on the other side of the road.
Dan Norder, editor, Ripper Notes
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Howard Brown
Sergeant
Username: Howard
Post Number: 36
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2004 - 7:54 am: |
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Dan...
Err...uhh...arrghh...umm..I found that "map" on the Internet and was just, ahh,,goofing around and err..came up with this case-crackin' evidence and possible pattern...I appreciate you pointing out the correct direction of London Hospital...Well,there goes that solution!
Anyway,please go and look at my profileand see where I was when I came up with this earth-shatterin' info....There wasn't much light in there...
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Jon Smyth
Inspector
Username: Jon
Post Number: 162
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 4:31 pm: |
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Ah, Howard (and Dan), take another look at that map you posted.
There's a number '5' next to Millers Court, right?
There's a number '1' next to Buck Row, yes?
Draw a horizontal line from that '5' across to just below the '1', then bring a line down from that '1', you see a large shaded figure, like an 'E' on it's side?.
Thats the London Hospital, its on the south side of Whitechapel High Street, a stones throw south of Buck Row.
Sorry to rain on your parade also Howard, I think the lines have no significance, just random.
Regards, Jon |
Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 213
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 5:40 pm: |
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Uh, I just noticed in my post above that I typed "Millers Court" when it should have been "Mitre Square." Ouch. I hate it when I do that.
Stride and Kelly being killed the same night would be a heck of a lot more shocking revelation than lines on a map. But of course it's not true, I just yanked the wrong location starting with the letter M out of my brain when I was typing.
Dan Norder, editor, Ripper Notes
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Howard Brown
Sergeant
Username: Howard
Post Number: 44
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 10:39 pm: |
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"I just yanked the wrong location starting with the letter M out of my brain when I was typing.
Dan...
Thats okay,Dan ! Take a wild guess where I yanked my cartographical nightmare above, out of !
I used an inaccurate representation of the Canonical Five kill sites,and put two and two together and came up with.....well,you know the rest.
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Dustin Gould
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 11:27 pm: |
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Kris....
As tempted as I am to say "yes," I honestly don't think it would have raised an alarm, or have been given serious consideration. Truth be told, back then, spiritualism, and occult studies, were "in vogue". They were not as taboo, as we think they were back then. If found, the police might have given them a cursory look, but not much else. MHO. Truth be told, I think they were hellbent on finding a "madman" guilty. The concept, of murder as a ritual practice, I don't think would have dawned on them.
All the best,
Dustin Gould |
Avril Ford
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 9:21 pm: |
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Howard
In the Victorian period most people (mainly the upper classes) openly dabbled in the occult. So i don't think the police would have found it that hard to belive.
Say the Ripper was into the occult wouldn't it make more sense for him to go on a child killing spree? I know that it's against Satanic ritual to sacrifice children, but things may have been different back then. |
Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 195
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 6:45 pm: |
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Hi Avril !
I'm not sure that in the Victorian Age "most people" openly dabbled into the occult. Could this be a typographical error? In any event,of those who DID participate into Satanic ritualism were more likely than not bored rich types or those with a lot of time on their hands that the lumpen prole simply didn't have to waste on such silly rigamarole.
Most European people at that time were still considerably influenced by the church in their worldview,at least as far as their spiritual beliefs were concerned. Living up to those beliefs is another story in any age,not just that one. Likewise,very few occultists in 1888 committed murder,just like in 2005. Its the 1 percent of these people that makes it so bad for the other...oh...you've heard that one,eh?
Regarding the police,I tend to believe we have to interpret the world from their 19th Century perception and not our retrospectively accurate view. They more or less considered whom the Ripper could have been from a considerably more narrow perspective. Our age has more types of serial killers for the police to reckon with than the police did then. The fact that prostitutes were killed undoubtedly steered the police to look for a "lone" killer...a killer with a dislike for women and someone who chose the easiest targets of that time,just like our age,prostitutes.
Your last sentence states that its against Satanic ritual to sacrifice children, but wouldn't it make sense for him to go on a child killing spree ?
Well,children weren't treated as well back then on average,thats for sure. Yet,as far as I know,there weren't any reports of missing children or children found murdered in an ritualistic manner in the Autumn of Terror. I believe it is highly possible that the murdered victims were laid out in occult fashion for all to see. Obviously, not very many children were out on the street at the time these women were. The chances of successfully murdering a series of children with the population of the East End not replying in open and violent revolt to such an outrage after the first and second hypothetically murdered child,at most,is remote,in my opinion.
Thanks for asking,Avril !
Take care...
How |
Sir Robert Anderson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 127
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 9:45 pm: |
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"although there's nothing in the official documentation to suggest the police ever considered an occult motive, "
Well, they did bring D'Onston in for questioning after he wrote some rather odd letters...See Ivor's excellent work for more on that.
Personally, I can't imagine the police thinking they weren't up against Evil with a capital E after seeing the scene in MJK's room.
Sir Robert
"I only thought I knew"
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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Sir Robert Anderson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 128
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 10:15 pm: |
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"Yet,as far as I know,there weren't any reports of missing children or children found murdered in an ritualistic manner in the Autumn of Terror."
For some reason I seem to remember that there were a series of child abductions from the Whitechapel area not too long before the Ripper. I admit the memory is hazy....help, anyone?
Sir Robert
"I only thought I knew"
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1271
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 11:06 pm: |
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Hi all
In the January issue of Ripperologist, shortly to appear, I have an article on Arthur Diosy and D'Onston and the black magic question. To answer Kris Law's question about whether the police looked into people who were interested in the occult or who had books on the occult, according to Sir Max Pemberton, talking years later to Bernard O'Donnell, Diosy alerted Scotland Yard to a certain bookstore that sold books on the occult. Apparently the police did take note of customers who bought such books and did follow up to check out those individuals (see Melvin Harris, The True Face of Jack the Ripper, pp. 159-160).
All my best
Chris George
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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