| Author |
Message |
    
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 849
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 10:31 am: |       |
I have been curious about the Berner street Murder site for some time now.It took place on the doorstep of the International Working Men"s Club-a hotbed of Socialist and Anarchist activity
most being immigrant Poles Russians and Germans many of whom were also Jewish.
In Chicago there had been executions of the leaders[for organising workers to fight for an 8 hour day].
The club also had a printing shop adjacent to it responsible for producing a radical working men"s newspaper which was in the process of being printed that night.In fact everything seemed to be happening that night -speakers,debates then singing and dancing later on.
what i have been thinking is that Elizabeth"s murderer could have [very misguidedly] thought he was [by such an assassination or series of assassination] focussing the attention of the public to bring about a change in living conditions to improve the lives of the people of Whitechapel.In other words he could have deluded himself that this was the way forward including this focusing of attention on the abject poverty of Whitechapel.If say he wasnt very stable anyway
and had got himself involved even peripherally
with a group of people whose objectives and ideology he didnt understand he could have misinterpreted things wholesale and thought he was doing a good thing for society.Such a scenario would account for him being able to avoid being seen--nobody would have realised someone from their club was involved in such
behaviour and would probably never have thought of him having any connection with the murders
even though they may well have noticed that he was a bit strange.
Natalie |
hemustadoneit
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 1:59 pm: | |
Hi Natalie,
It's a possible if unlikely suggestion for the one-off murder of Stride, but, not likely in my opinion that he would be guilty for the other murders.
To quote:
[by such an assassination or series of assassination]
I'd find it unlikely he'd play so close to home and, the guy may be deluded but, it wouldn't account for the ripping of other victims both before and after Stride.
Why kill destitutes and not the bosses of industry? why risk the hangman's noose for murder? why not just plain kill instead of mutiliate and spend additional time at the location with the victim increasing his risk?
In all honesty he'd be more likely to burn down sweat shops and other establishments which exploit workers, I can't see any rational reason why someone fighting for socialism against
exploitational capitalism would decide that murdering and ripping wh*res would futher the cause.
OK it did highlight women having to sell their bodies for the price of a bed for the night but so would plain murder. Perhaps that's why he escalated the level of violence if no-one was getting the message
To quote:
Such a scenario would account for him being able to avoid being seen
That would only be true of the Stride murder and wouldn't hold water for the others as far as I can see.
If you think Stride wasn't a victim of JtR (and I have serious reservations) I fear we'll never know her killer - but it would more likely to be just be a random murder with no hidden meaning or a typical domestic.
The only thing that concerns me in the location is where would she normally take her "punters" if that was one of her regular spots and if she was an unfortunate.
In fact I can't say I've read much about where these women regularly advertised for trade and whether they did have known nearby secluded spots, but I suspect we don't know the answers.
From recollection Tabram's location seemed a strange place to do "business" and I think we know she was an unfortunate, but then again so was the backyard of a Hanbury street residential home.
Do we know much at all about the working life of unfortunates of that time and how they picked up trade, where regular haunts were, just how common was prostitution, was prostitutes in London concentrated in Whitechappel or widespread etc.
Cheerio,
ian
|
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 854
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 23, 2004 - 9:35 am: | |
Well Ian, George Bernard Shaw[see on this site under press reports] certainly seemed to think that the murders had radicalised the press into taking up the issue of social deprivation and focusing attention on this instead of calling for the likes of Warren to br even more brutal in his dealings with the protesters etc.
But I am not all that convinced about that myself.The press soon returned to form.
What I meant was more that in the atmosphere of the working men"s club which was attended by the Russian Revolutionaries etc as well as the anarchists etc there would no doubt have been a few fiery orators among the invited speakers at these Saturday events.The police were well primed about it all--hence their increased presence around that area and around Mitre Square.
A man who was already somewhat unstable might have had his illness triggered listening to all this passionate rhetoric.If his illness was schizophrenia then to him possibly hearing vocal "commands" from on high concurrent with the heated passions erupting on the streets of Whitechapel and the violence already in the air from the state the whole thing might have caused a breakdown at the start of his spree[August1888].
When I wrote about the IWMC being a place he may have frequented this is what I meant when I said
that he could avoid being seen in such a place -nobody would have thought to take notice of his comings and goings on that particular night.The same might almost be said for Mitre Square where he was possibly known there too-possibly as one of the "trouble makers" from Berner Street"s IWMC.
I am not saying he chose Berner Street to "avoid being seen" but rather was triggered to commit the murder there because of the heated debates excitement and late night singing drinking and dancing bringing on his illness.It turned out to have been unsatisfactory in the end because he was disturbed but it was good in the sense that he wasnt noticed.He blended in.
As far as he himself being able to partake of the debates or participate in the growing protest movements I doubt he was well enough to do so.
He may simply have gone to the club because it was local and maybe his brother in law or friends had encouraged him to go.But he may have been excited by the thought of bombs and assassinations that he had heard about with regard to some of the anarchist organisations.Its just a thought really.I have also wondered with regard to Elizabeth Stride whether since she was something of a linguist,intelligent etc and cleaned for Jewish households from time to time she may also have been a police spy as has been said once or twice about Mary Kelly.Catherine Eddowes also worked in Jewish households as a cleaner and thought she knew who he was.And the police were certainly under instruction to keep an eye open for trouble makers in Mitre Square and Berner Street.
Natalie |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1808
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 23, 2004 - 11:36 am: | |
It is true that the Ripper murders stirred up a social and political debate regarding the conditions of the poor in East End.
However, besides that, I find it unlikely that the murders had political motives, and since I am quite doubtful about Stride being a Ripper victim, I think leaning to much upon the Berner Street circumstances, would lead nowhere.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Chief Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 879
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 23, 2004 - 4:33 pm: | |
Hi Glenn,
The fact is Stride was killed in the vacinity, in a brutal fashion , must suggest that she was killed by the same person, that killed Eddowes, just less than a hour later.
Chapman was seen talking to a strange man in a pub at 5am on the morning of the 8th sept, the killer obviously was in a state of semi drunkeness when attacking these women, for simple bravado.
According to the seance conducted by Pamela Ball, she sensed a alcoholic hangover.[ with kelly]
As this fits ther broad sholdered tipsy man, I would suggest 'whoever this man was the perpretrator'[witnessed by Swhartz].was the killer.
The Descriptions given by Long, and Schwartz, were proberly of the same man, although detailed descriptions varied..
Regards Richard.
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 351
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 23, 2004 - 6:57 pm: | |
Just a small point, the radical-cum-anarchists who were hanged in 1887 in Chicago were not hanged for their support of an eight hour day. These were the "Haymarket Square" martyrs - a set of eight anarchists who were tried for provoking and causing the riot and bombing at Haymarket Square in 1886, where a number of the Chicago police were killed. Three or four were hanged, one committed suicide (he bit into a dynamite cap that was smuggled to him in his death cell), and the others sentenced to life imprisonment. In 1894, Illinois Governor John Peter Altgeld destroyed his political career by pardoning the remaining anarchists and posthumously declaring the dead ones innocent. Altgeld went over the evidence and found it highly suspicious (i.e., parts were faked by the authorities). The story is briefly retold in John F. Kennedy's PROFILES IN COURAGE, but it is told in more detail in Harry Barnard's biography of Altgeld, EAGLE FORGOTTEN (the title is based on a poem by Vachel Lindsay about Altgeld and his brave action, "The EAGLE WHO IS FORGOTTEN").
Jeff |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 856
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2004 - 3:49 am: | |
Hi Jeff,thanks for the extra information there.I must look that up.
It was a fascinating area Whitechapel.Despite all the poverty there was such a lot of activity
as well as strong dissatisfaction between the two main elements in the Jewish Community there-between the more settled conservative members of the Mitre Square Synagogue and the more radical socialist and anarchist leaning members of the
Berner Street IWMC.
It would be interesting to see a membership list-if such ever existed-and see if any familiar names popped up!
Natalie |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2470
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2004 - 9:03 am: | |
Jeff, was this the occasion when Shaw organized a petition asgainst the executions, and found to his surprise that very few of his radical friends were prepared to sign it - whereas Oscar Wilde signed it without a moment's hesitation?
Robert |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 352
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2004 - 11:30 am: | |
Hi Robert,
It may have been. I was trying to check it out in my three volume biography of Shaw by Michael Holroyd, but I couldn't find any reference. It would not have surprised me that Shaw would have tried to get such a petition going, as the Haymarket Square Anarchists were as big an issue in the late 1880s as Sacco and Vanzetti was forty years later.
Oddly enough, regarding Shaw's reaction to Wilde's signing the petition without a moment's hesitation (bravo Oscar!), some thirty years later Shaw was to do an odd thing regarding a similar petition closer to home. In 1916 Sir Arthur Conan Doyle gathered a petition of many leading society and literary figures to try to stop the execution (for treason) of Sir Roger Casement, the Anglo-Irish humanitarian and Irish Nationalist patriot. Conan Doyle felt (having seen the notorious "Black Diaries" that showed Casement's homosexuality - and which were used by the British Government to undercut sympathy for Casement, as a great humanitarian gone wrong) that Casement was insane and should not be hanged.
He presented the petition to Shaw - and Shaw would not sign it. Shaw was a pacifist, and felt that his signature would doom the attempt to save Casement! In the long run it didn't matter - Sir Roger was executed. By the way, Sir Roger heard what Conan Doyle's basis for the petition was, and deeply resented it. Whatever his sexual habits, Casement wanted a free and independent Ireland.
Jeff |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 353
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2004 - 11:35 am: | |
Hi Natalie,
If such a list of members were to turn up, it probably have some names on it that sounded familiar. But I just wonder if such a list even exists anymore - possibly in Scotland Yard itself, which would have been keeping an eye on any anarchist activities in London.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
hemustadoneit
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, May 23, 2004 - 7:39 pm: | |
Hi Natalie,
Thanks for the info on the fact that the case did cause more of a social upheaval than I previously believed - I know there was at least some local debate/action on lack of commitment to catch the perp etc... I'll go find the article you pointed out to me.
Your reply does now make more sense in that context, but I'd still lean (if anything) to it being more of a reaction to previous murders where he latched onto the JtR case and added another victim to stir up the protests even more.
...and co-incidentally that happened to be the same night the real JtR struck just an hour later.
I tend to agree with Glenn that there's something about Stride that just doesn't gel with the other murders, but if I had to I'd have to lean to indlude Stride just because the local police did (but politically they may have had to include Stride just because the local press were already publishing it as another JtR victim and the police would be accused of a cover up if they denounced it as just another murder).
But just one-cotton-picking-minute, his brother in law?
To quote:
maybe his brother in law or friends had encouraged him to go
Is this speculation or do you have a candidate in mind (err would one of the kosminsky clan be the name you're thinking of ;-o)
Coincidences do happen Richard - two dissimilar murders in one evening don't necessarily mean they must be related.
Cheerio,
ian
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2471
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2004 - 3:11 pm: | |
Thanks for that, Jeff. Ah well, that's Shaw's unpredictability for you!
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 858
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2004 - 4:48 pm: | |
Yes,you learn interesting bits of history all the time on this site..What characters they all were.
Thanks for the extra information on these people,Jeff.Poor old Sir Roger-!but I agree with him over the issue of his homosexuality.It didnt have anything to do with the cause he was prepared to give his life for.Still I"m sure Sir Arthur Conab Doyle had only the best of intentions-Oscar too.
Thanks too for the bit about Shaw and Oscar Robert!
Hi Ian,Yes I must admit that that is who I was thinking of mainly but since the place seemed to have also attracted numbers of immigrant Poles,Russians,Germans-Jewish and Gentile both it could also have attracted other suspects such as Kaminsky[unlikely but a possibility]and likewise David Cohen.It seems to have had a fairly mixed bag of people-viz sweatshop workers,intellectuals
of various kinds eg William Morris,George Bernard Shaw,some of the Russian Revolutionaries and a lot of political/intellectual members of the Jewish Community---though not Lawende,Levy or Harris![they attended the more respectable/conservative Jewish Imperial Club!]
Makes you wonder though about why JtR chose these places and then ran off to Wentworth Street and dropped the piece of apron in the hallway of a mostly Jewish tenement building.And MAY have written an obscure message about "Juwes" and "blame".
Natalie |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1809
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2004 - 5:19 pm: | |
Hi Richard,
I guess I am not that certain about the common factors connecting the Stride murder with the others as you seem to be -- the importance of the common factors regarding some of the witness descriptions, are somewhat slightly exaggerated.
Also details concerning the modus operandi and the probability that it was a different type of knife that slashed Stride's throat than the one that was used in Eddowes' case some 45 minutes later, raises serious doubts in my view.
And as Ian states; "Coincidences do happen Richard - two dissimilar murders in one evening don't necessarily mean they must be related."
Can't be said clearer than that.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Scott Suttar
Sergeant
Username: Scotty
Post Number: 32
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2004 - 10:38 pm: | |
Hi Glenn,
I continue to be frustrated by the assertion that a different type of knife was used on Stride. I see absolutely no evidence of this. Rather than go into those details here (and bore everyone again) perhaps if you can, read my last post on "Liz Stride - The Murder".
Natalie,
I too have been thinking about the locale of this murder and the fact that the two murders on the night of the double event seem to have links to the Jews. I am on record on the Graffito Thread as saying that I think the graffito had nothing to do with Jack the ripper. I don't think my opinion has changed yet but it is food for thought. I don't however think the killer frequented the club but rather that the murder site was important rather than the victim. To kill near a club frequented by Jews might point the Police in their direction.
Scotty. |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1812
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 12:36 am: | |
Hi Scott,
Well, there are no evidence of anything and certainly no evidence pointing in the opposite direction either. In the medical statements there are clear suspicions that it was a different, round-pointed weapon (not only based on the rather uninterested knife that was found, but probably merely on the nature of the wound), and that must count for something, although it's by no means conclusive.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Scott Suttar
Sergeant
Username: Scotty
Post Number: 38
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 3:04 am: | |
Hi Glenn,
My point remains this, yes there is no evidence that a sharp pointed knife was used. Please show me where either of the doctors state that they believe a round ended knife was used. This is a complete misconception as far as I can tell. No such statements were made to my knowledge by the doctors who conducted the post mortem. They clearly state that the fact that there is no evidence of a sharp pointed knife being used, in itself does not mean that one wasn't.
Might I ask you to reference where these "clear suspicions" in the medical statements can be found. I'm not discounting them I just can't find them.
Scotty. |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1813
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 6:25 am: | |
It's all there, Scotty, in those quotes you yourself put up on the Stride thread:
Was there anything to indicate that the cut on the neck of the deceased was made with a pointed knife? - Nothing."
How you can interpret that statement as a support for the opposite direction goes beyond me. Sure, it doesen't by no means prove that it was a knife with a round tip, but it is clear that they believe in the possibility -- in spite of the fact that they disregard the knife that was found.
Since this problem was addressed at the inquest to begin with, we can't pretend it isn't there. It must have come up for a valid reason. The problem is, that you seem to find this uncertainty regarding the murder weapon only connected to the useless knife that was found. It is just as fair to assume that they discovered this problem while looking at the throat cut from a medical point of view.
Because they did see the throat wound -- you and I have not.
This is all a matter of interpretation, nothing else.
See also my more elaborated answer to you on the Stride thread.
Al the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 859
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 10:33 am: | |
Hi Scott re your point about the murder location.
I think that a picture is emerging for me about these venues on the night of the double event.
What I am beginning to see is a Whitechapel dominated by poverty and class tension as well as racial tension and some internicine tension between the richer conservative Jews and the more recently arrived Jews some of whom were very active round workers rights but not around the synagogue attending community centred around the great Synagogue at Mitre square.Around the time of the murders there were reports in the Jewish Chronicle about the disruption to their lives that thes people who attended the International Working Mens Club were causing through their demonstrations and protests.particularly since they were asking if they could bring a march of dissafected sweat-shop workers from the Berner Street Head-quarters to the great synagogue in Mitre Square.[Which their orthodox elders refused and not only refused but appear to have contacted the local MP a Mr Montague,to prevent the printing of the radical Jewish Workers newspaper in Dutfield Yard].
There seems therefore to have been extreme tension not only with some local non Jewish Whitechapel inhabitants but also between these two Jewish groups one in Berner Street the other in Mitre Square.
What you then have thrown in on top of all these growing tensions is a kind of cat among the pigeons situation whereby both groups wake up to news on the Sunday 30th September 1888 that two women have been found dead with their throats cut almost to their backbone in one case inside the clubs yard and in the other just next to their club.Not only that but a piece of one of the women"s apron has been found covered in blood etc just outside the Jewish Tenement house.[add in the graffiti and you see why Warren blew his top!]
All this is all the more surprising when you consider the activity that was going on all around that night.It seems that no place could have been more lively that the International Club that night and even the Imperial Club was only just ending its nights activities.Strange places one would think to choose to murder!Especially given all the dark alleys of Whitechapel at that time.
It"s almost like a cat comes along with two slaughtered and mutilated birds and places one outside one man"s house and the other outside his
estranged brothers house.There seems to be an attempt here to communicate something even if its only "Well here is my offering a curse on both your houses" type of thing.
Natalie |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2560
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 2:08 pm: | |
They had some illustrious names visiting Berner Street, to judge by this item from January 14th 1889 in "The Times" :
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 888
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 4:21 pm: | |
Thanks for this Robert-I"m a bit surprised the Times reported such an event!
I am just presently trying to find a web site selling books to get a copy of the Fishman book on East End Jewish Radicals. Its out of print but there are copies of it about.
Nice to hear from you again
Natalie |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2564
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 5:35 pm: | |
Hi Natalie
How can it be out of print when I've just ordered one from W.H. Smith?!?! Twenty pounds (doesn't seem to be a paperback edn available) but I'll have to wait till July for it to come through.
There are a few items about Kropotkin on the "Times" site.
Looking forward to the paintings.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2565
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 5:40 pm: | |
Sorry Natalie, I think you're talking about a different book - East End 1888 was the one I ordered. Did he write one on Jewish radicals too?
I remember there was a book called The Anarchists of Jubilee Street - was that Fishman?
Robert |
Scott Suttar
Detective Sergeant
Username: Scotty
Post Number: 57
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 8:20 am: | |
Hi all,
Just thinking about the whole Jewish Clubs connection Natalie. It occurs to me that if Police today were to have a positive ID of a suspect such as that reported to have occured at the seaside home, even if the witness would not swear to it, they would surely believe they had their man and try to build a case. If any of us were in that position and let's say for arguement's sake we had a Jew as the suspect, it would not take us very long before we were investigating their background. Surely if a Jewish connection were established in such a way both the Mitre Square Synagogue and the Working Mens Club would have been asked for a list of members.
Doesn't get us anywhere I know but there it is.
Scotty. |
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 772
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 10:14 am: | |
Hi, Robert and Natalie
Bill Fishman is the author of two books on the East End that are pertinent to our interests. They are:
William J. Fishman, East End 1888: A Year in a London Borough Among the Labouring Poor. London: Duckworth, 1988.
William J. Fishman, East End Jewish Radicals 1875-1914. London: Duckworth, 1975.
All the best
Chris George
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2569
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 10:56 am: | |
Thanks Chris. I may go back and order the other one too.
Scotty, I think the police probably did investigate the Berner Street club, but if they did have a list of names, it seems to have vanished. I'm hoping that one day something may emerge from Tsarist files.
Robert |
Scott Suttar
Detective Sergeant
Username: Scotty
Post Number: 64
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 11:33 am: | |
Robert,
I guess the point I was making is that if they did investigate all of this and let's say it was Kosminski or Cohen, and let's say they were a member at either site, (sounds very unlikely when I put it like that!) surely they would have started to be able to definitively link their suspect to the crimes. Yet the statements we have from various officials in the ensuing years make it clear that they certainly did not find conclusive proof that one man was JtR.
In my mind that means that the killer had no association with these Jewish establishments or that no link could be established. That is to say the police found no link or didn't look.
Scotty. |
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 773
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 1:26 pm: | |
Hi Robert
I don't think we would necessarily need the Tsarist records to know who comprised the members of the Berner Street club. I'm thinking that the membership records and meeting minutes of the Berner Street club might possibly still exist somewhere, or else the makeup of the club members and a record of the meetings could be gleaned from the pages of Der Arbeter Fraint, the Socialist newspaper published out of the club. Unfortunately though since the newspaper is in Yiddish and printed in Hebrew characters it might need a Hebrew speaker to make full sense of the articles on the meetings held in Berner Street. Incidentally, at this time, the newspaper was a genuinely socialist periodical, although later it became an anarchist organ. See an anarchist website which give a review of Fishman's book on East End Jewish radicals for more information on the nature of the club and the paper in 1888.
All the best
Chris
(Message edited by chrisg on June 17, 2004)
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2571
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 3:56 pm: | |
Hi Chris and Scotty
Chris, thanks for that. Well, we can only hope that something remains, waiting to be discovered.
Scotty, yes there doesn't seem to have been a simple link. Of course, Jack may have been Jewish, and killed Stride because he took her for a member of the club, i.e. because he disliked socialists.
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 890
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 5:13 pm: | |
Hi folks!I have just lost a whole page when AOL suddenly closed down.Oh well I want to thank Chris for the info above-just what I needed-terrific!
Also Scotty to say I agree and dont understand the police not looking through lists-maybe they did and were worried to let it be known they were suspicious of someone Jewish etc anyway I think its worth us trying to get hold of those lists if they still exist.Bill Fishman himself will be speaking on the East End in August and may be able to help,he may also have a copy of East End Jewish Radicals[another way to get it Robert is via a website called abe books.com[secondhand I think].
I have had difficulty getting my paintings on line and have to wait for the weekend Robert when we"ll have more time.
All the Best
Natalie |
Scott Suttar
Detective Sergeant
Username: Scotty
Post Number: 69
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 10:55 pm: | |
Hi Natalie,
I'm trying to discover whether there were Jews on the Police force at that time, Just wondering if Bill Fishman might know anything about that.
Scotty. |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 894
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 4:03 am: | |
Hi Scotty.there was definitely one see under pc Brown committed suicide just after Mary Kelly"s murder.W.Fishman will be at Augustt"s C&D club.
Best Natalie |
Scott Suttar
Detective Sergeant
Username: Scotty
Post Number: 71
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 6:37 am: | |
Thanks for that Natalie, I also note that in the reports I see on him it hardly rates a mention that he was Jewish. I find that interesting, anecdotally it suggests that a Jewish policeman was not a novelty.
I'm stuck down here in OZ in August, but if anyone has a chance i'd love to know if Mr Fishman is aware of Jewish Police being a common thing back then.
I've done some searching earlier today and am interested to find that there is a Jewish policeman's group in the Met now, it was only formed 2 years ago though.
Scotty. |
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 775
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 10:12 am: | |
Hi, Scotty
There were possibly a number of Jewish police constables in the Met but I would not think they were common. Eight years before he joined the Met, P.C. Richard Brown, E Division, when he applied to join the Royal Artillery in 1878 gave his religion as "Church of England" (Anglican), according to the War Office records at the PRO. In covering the inquest into his 16 November 1888 suicide by gunshot in Hyde Part, the Jewish Chronicle of 29 December made a point of saying Brown was Jewish and named a couple of Jewish acquaintances. In other words, Brown may also have stated that his faith was Church of England when he joined the Met on 16 August 1886, and that might have been the case for other Jewish recruits to the police as well.
Hi, Robert
I may be wrong about this, but I doubt if there were Jewish female members of the Berner Street club at this period, or if anyone, including the murderer, would assume that Liz Stride could be a member of the club.
Best regards
Chris George
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
|
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 895
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 10:37 am: | |
hi All,Jewish "ethnicity" is passed on through the mother/female line and so its possible that PCBrown"s father was Church of England and had his son christened Cof E but that he considered himself Jewish as he grew older and that his mother told him that she believed him to be Jewish as well.In fact if his mother was Jewish then to all intents and purposes he was Jewish.
As far as female members go I too think not but dont forgetthat one of the members who discovered the body[if I remember right]had just returned from "escorting his girlfriend home".To me this implies that women played a part in the activities
as guests at least and possibly they came to hear women speakers such as Annie Bessant who often did speak at similar places in Whitechapel at that time.
i think that maybe Elizabeth Stride had knowledge of men who frequented this club and was hoping to pick up some business near closing time.
Maybe too she felt reasonably "safe" around a busy club on a Saturday night!
Natalie |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2576
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 12:57 pm: | |
Hi Chris
Maybe there were no official female members, but didn't they have their wives there that night? Diemschutz went inside to check on his wife.
The reasons I think it's possible that the murderer of Stride (whether or not he was Jack or Jewish)
may have taken her for a member, are that she was standing just inside the gateway, she may have been singing along to the music (she reportedly could speak Yiddish), and of course we can't be certain that "Lipski" wasn't aimed at her.
It's just a possibility which I don't want to exclude completely. Personally though, I doubt if Schwartz's man killed Stride.
Chris, it would be understandable if Jewish
police applicants gave their religion as C of E when actually joining up, but wouldn't they have faced real problems when it came to giving evidence in court on oath?
Robert
|
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 777
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 1:43 pm: | |
Hi, Robert
I think the murderer or anybody else passing by would probably have assumed that Liz Stride was a prostitute touting for trade, which is exactly what she was. It is known that Stride spoke Yiddish, so she likely catered to Jewish customers.
I think it was common in this period because of the bigotry of the day and for fear of progroms or at least discrimination for some Jews to hide their ethnicity and religion. Brown also claimed he was from Australia and named a street address in Adelaide, South Australia, but the address does not check out and I have not been able to establish his claimed Australian background. It is noticeable that another time, in his British Army papers, when signing up temporarily in another unit other than the Royal Artillery, in 1879, he claimed he was from the island of Heligoland off the coast of Germany. My assumption, though I might be wrong, is that he was in actuality of Eastern European background.
Best regards
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2581
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 6:00 pm: | |
Hi Chris, Natalie, Scotty
I found a bit of info in two books - "A History Of The Jews In Britain Since 1858" by V.D. Lipman, and "A Documentary History Of Jewish Immigrants In Britain 1840 - 1920" by David Englander.
In the former : " The intellectual leadership of the Jewish left-wing movement in Britain was, broadly speaking, social-democrat in the 1880s under the inspiration of the pioneer Jewish socialist, Morris Vinchevsky (1856 - 1932), who arrived in London in 1879. Between 1890 and 1894 several of the socialist leaders left for the United States and the main intellectual influence on the Jewish left until 1914 was that of the anarchists. This was reflected in the ideological orientation of the Yiddish press. The leading Yiddish journal in London, with an influence probably much beyond its nominal circulation of a few hundred, was founded in 1884 by Vinchevsky and Joel Elijah Rabbinowitz as the Polishe Yidel (little Polish Jew) - the first Socialist paper in Yiddish. In October 1884 it became Die Zukunft (The Future) but this soon took a more flexible line as Rabbinowitz wanted to adjust to religious, Jewish national and even bourgeois attitudes. Vinchevsky left Zukunft (which continued until 1889) and founded the Arbeter Fraint (Workers' Friend) which remained the main left-wing Yiddish periodical in what became a variety of Yiddish papers in Britain. When Vinchevsky left for America in the 1890s it changed its line to anarchism. It is perhaps symbolic of the transfer of ideological leadership of the left-wing movements from Britain to America from about 1894 to 1914 that even the anarchists, who seem to have been the principal force in Jewish left-wing thinking in that period, were led by a non-Jew, Rudolf Rocker. Rocker, who had come to England from Germany in 1895, settled in east London in 1898, learned Yiddish and immersed himself in Jewish affairs as editor of the Arbeter Fraint and leader of the Jewish anarchists. Under his leadership the anarchists, although not numerically a large group, took over in 1892 the club at 40 Berner Street, which had been founded in 1884 as a socialist centre ; and the anarchists exercised an influence on the strikes of London Jewish tailors in 1889 and 1906."
In case AOL closes down on me too, I'll post the rest a bit later.
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 898
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 6:21 pm: | |
Thankyou Robert for such a detailed piece of information.Looking forward to the next bit!
Natalie |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2583
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 7:00 pm: | |
Hi again
From the Englander book : " What was the role of Jewish women in all of this? (i.e.left-wing politics)Did they occupy a more prominent position than their sisters in the national labour movement? We do not know. At present immigrant Jewish women remain hidden from history. They were certainly noticed in their own day. The female members of the Jewish cap makers' union, held at the 'Duke of Clarence', in Commercial Road, for example, made an impression on Booth's research assistant who recorded them in his notebook. In the tailors' strike of 1890 masters and workers both tried to mobilise the women on their behalf, and in 1906 the refusal of the immigrant housewives to buy bread except that stamped with the union label was critical to the successful outcome of the strike organized by the Jewish Bakers' Union. Jewish women were also particularly active in anarchist politics. Millie Sabel, 'Red' Rose Robins and Milly Witkop were all closely involved with Rudolf Rocker and his circle. The Arbeter Fraint group owed much to their contribution. Jewish immigrant women, then, were not passive observers. Nor were their native sisters whose militant campaigning for the right to vote upset the service of the synagogue on more than one occasion.The links between immigrant and native women require extended study, as do most aspects of the experience of Jewish women."
Re Jewish policemen, the book contains a report by PC 100 Greenberg of Leman Street, whom Englander describes as "possibly the only Jewish policeman in the Metropolitan Force at that time" (the time being 1916).
I tried a quick, crude and unscientific search on the police orders website. I found only one Cohen (in the Met in 1864) but I did find three or four Abrahams and two or three Levys in the Met late 80s through the 90s.
Chris, the Brown case is intriguing and I hope you can unearth more about it.
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 900
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2004 - 12:42 pm: | |
Again thanks a lot Robert for this info.I must do some similar searches myself.
Best Natalie |
