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Paul Jackson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 51
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 8:15 pm: |       |
Hi Everyone...
Kosminsky is one of the stronger suspects, but
my main problem was that he seemed to be too young...wasnt he 23 in 1888? I just cant get past that point. Even though the few witnesses who got a glimse of the ripper, didnt get a great look at him...most said he was late 20s early 30s. But thats just my opinion. He may have looked older than he was...I have never seen but one pic of him and he was older then.
Gary, good call on Tumblety's height. I agree that he was way too tall. In those days, if someone had seen a suspect of 6'0, the first thing that would be described would be that...
"He was tall". none of the witnesses described a tall man(excluding pipe man...who was probably just a guy standing there). All describe the suspect of average height...5'6, 5'7...or "he was a few inces taller than the victim" or whatever.
Regards,
Paul
(Message edited by paulj on March 15, 2004) |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1286
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 8:40 pm: | |
Hi Paul,
Well, in my experience, age is one of the most difficult things to determine, and therefore also rather unreliable in the context of witness descriptions. Kosminski may have been 23 in 1888, but he could just as well have looked 28 or 30. We don't know that, and from a witness' point of view, that is a very small leap. As you may know, witness descriptions in general are always problematic; we all have our own personal preferences and the things that seems to be most troublesome in these situations for a person to determine are age and colors. That becomes evident when you've studied enough witness descriptions.
A height of Tumblety's kind is quite a different matter and is harder to overlook (and also easier to remember for the alleged witness), but I think we must treat descriptions of someone being in his early or late twenties as somewhat unreliable and too hard to pin down with certainty for any individual. Therefore I don't see the age thing as a problem in Kosminski's case (there are other more problematic issues connected with him, though).
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Paul Jackson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 53
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 9:42 pm: | |
Hey Glenn,
Yea, I see what you are saying and I agree.
Age is hard to determine sometimes and eyewitness
accounts are often errored, but...I just cant get past 23. That age just doesnt feel right to me.
Three witnesses inside of an hour...Schwartz,
Lawende and Smith(if Smiths man was the the same as Schwartz) all said the suspect looked older.
And Elizabeth Long(even though she didnt see the suspects face but from the back) said he looked
older, and Hutch(If he is telling the truth)
said his guy was older.
Anyway...as we both said...witness' descriptions are "iffy", but in the Ripper case, they are "consistently iffy". Hey, thats a cool phrase. Best regards.
Paul
Oh yea....Ive just been thinking about one thing that is kind of off the topic. How the hell did Jack get out of Dutfields yard, without anyone seeing him. With Mrs. Mortimer at the door for 30 minutes and Diemshutz pulling up, and the couple standing at the end of Berner street...dude walking down the street with the black bag...Mrs Deimshutz in the Kitchen,
James Brown and Marshall hanging around, pipeman in the vicinity....how could he get out without being seen? Bizarre.
Paul |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1287
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 10:19 pm: | |
Hey Paul,
How ya doing?
Yes, I can agree on that most of the witnesses point at someone a bit older than 23. However, there are a lot of people who don't look their age. But it's probably true -- I haven't had time recently to more thoroughly check out the witness descriptions, but they may be consistent on that point -- for what it's worth.
Regarding Dutfield's Yard; yes, it's a bit of a weird puzzle, really. I must admit I don't get it either -- regardless if it was the Ripper or not.
It makes you think why such odd suggestions as The Invisible Man has popped up as Ripper suspects. 
It would be really interesting to get hold of a more thorough and detailed plan over Dutfield's Yard. So far I haven't seen one reproduced, and I don't know if one exists. But it would make things a bit clearer, I think. As it is now, all we have is witness accounts of the disposition and layout of the place, as well as very rough outlines from street maps.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on March 15, 2004)
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Chief Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 582
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 7:42 am: | |
HiPaul, Glenn and All
I would consider the possibility that Stride's killer had already left the yard before
Diemshutz arrived. Of course this takes us into the realm of speculation about whether Stride was killed by JTR or not. If it was JTR who killed Stride he would have been preparing to mutilate the body when Diemshutz entered the yard. However, if a street thug or gang member, as I believe Stride's killer to have been, killed her he would have been content to leave the yard after killing Stride. Recall that a man was seen abusing Stride in the street before her body was found and the throat wound was altogether different from Jack's style and was inflicted with a different type of knife.
I believe I have taken us off topic with this aside, but it is an interesting area for speculation.
All The Best
Gary |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1289
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 8:39 am: | |
Hi Gary,
That debate is an old but interesting one, and as you say this is not the thread for it. I myself have been involved in it since I first visited this site, and I have gone from being a complete believer in Stride being a Ripper to somewhere in between, and recently I have also begun to consider the assaulting man as her killer as an alternative option.
I don't want that theme to inflict on this thread (we can move that elsewhere), but let me just say, that we only have Schwartz to rely on as far as the assaulting man is concerned -- no one ever saw or heard any incident besides Schwartz and whether or not that person was her killer, the problem still remains how he managed to slip away without being seen.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Natalie Severn
Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 458
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 10:52 am: | |
Hi Glenn and Gary and Paul /All,
If the ripper really could "blend in"like its suggested I have begun to wonder if he might simply have slipped back into the adjacent club?
If he knew the whereabouts of a sink in there he could have rinsed his hands quickly and then blended in and gradually out. Just wondering if this club was one he went to from time to time?
Noone knows which way he went until he sets off for Mitre Square.
Another [Paul Begg]writes that one at least of the witnesses Levy was evasive and gave the impression that he knew more than he would admit to.Could it be that Levy recognised him /knew him from somewhere?
The other thing Glenn is would Mitre Square AND Dutfield Yard both be in the rippers comfort zone?
Best Natalie |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Chief Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 584
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 11:19 am: | |
Hi Glenn, Paul, Natalie
Glenn-Yes, the Stride as a JTR victim is best left to another thread. Your point about Schwartz being the only witness is quite valid. The newspapers even had him fleeing incontinently to his lodgings. Somehow I doubt he would have admitted to a reporter that he lost bladder control after 'pipe man' produced a knife.
Natalie-I have wondered the same thing myself about Stride's killer. Could he have mixed briefly with the crowd or found a temporary refuge in some empty part of the club. Of course, if he was the same man who killed Kate he could not have hung around too long.
All The Best
Gary |
Jim DiPalma
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jimd
Post Number: 73
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 12:31 pm: | |
Hi All,
Paul writes (of Kosminski): "He may have looked older than he was...I have never seen but one pic of him and he was older then."
Paul, could you please tell me the source of that photograph? I was not aware that a photo of Kosminski was known to exist.
Just to stay on-topic:
1) local man, not yet named
2) some variant of the Polish Jew theory (Kosminski or Cohen or someone like that)
3) various others who can at least be shown to have been in the area at the time of the murders (Bury, Hutchinson, Cutbush, etc)
thanks
Jim |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1290
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 1:44 pm: | |
I think Paul refers to the drawing (he didn't write "photo") often seen in connection with him.
Unfortunately, Paul, that drawing isn't really Kosminski, though, but just a sketch to illustrate the Ripper without a certain suspect in mind.
Besides that, no real picture of Kosminski has survived.
Gary and Natalie,
To go off topic again; it is an interesting suggestion that he could have blended in with the people in the club, but I would consider it quite risky. Besides, all people inside the club were gathered by the police and then questioned and searched. Besides, as Gary points out, if it was the same person that killed Eddowes, then he wouldn't have time to stick around too long; he would probably have found himself stuck in the place during the police inquires.
It is an interesting though, but I suspect that Stride's murderer (whoever he was) hid behind the gates and then slipped out while Diemschutz went inside. The only alternative is that he somehow managed to cut her throat and then disappear at some point when the coast got clear from witnesses (which leaves little room). I find that a bit tricky, although not impossible. I prefer the first alternative at this point.
To get back to the subject of the thread:
Good and very sane suggestions, Jim. I can agree with them.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 8:06 pm: | |
Hi all,
One point on Tumblety and it is a quite simple one. The police at the time Knew how tall he was and what he looked like. Either because he was arrested two days before the kelly murder or like some people have suggested that he was being watched by another police organization and they still arrested him anyway. If they did not know what he looked like before they arrested him they sure would have after and they still followed him from London to Newyork.
I wonder if anyone can help me out? Hutchinson came forward with his description and Tumblety was arrested at about the same time. Does anyone know witch happend fist?
All the Best,CB |
Paul Jackson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 56
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 10:26 pm: | |
Hi Everyone,
I know which illustration you are referring and its not that one...I think it is somewhere on this board...Im not sure. I may be mistaken, but...I'll try to locate it.
Best regards
Paul |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1293
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 7:39 am: | |
Hi Paul,
Then it's a picture I haven't seen, and I do believe you must confuse it with something else. As far as I know, there is no existing picture or photograph of Kosminski.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1294
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 7:43 am: | |
By the way, in one television documentary I saw a quite funny drawing of the Polish Jew/Anderson suspect/Kosminski/David Cohen in Colney Hatch, while identified by the "fellow Jew". The convict is standing to the right, unshaven and with his hands behind his back; Anderson is standing in the middle, smoking a pipe.
That is not a contemporary picture, though, but a sketch that was made especially for the program.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Timsta
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 6:03 pm: | |
Gary:
"I would consider the possibility that Stride's killer had already left the yard before
Diemshutz arrived."
I've always thought that Diemschutz's pony shied from the smell of blood, rather from either the body of Stride or the body of Jack (or whoever). Horses *hate* the smell of blood, it's a survival instinct programmed into them (for rather obvious reasons).
Regards
Timsta
|
Chris Michetti
Detective Sergeant
Username: Pl4tinum
Post Number: 62
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 12:39 pm: | |
Timsta,
The horse could have shied away from the smell of blood, but Jack could still have been hiding in the dark corner between the gate and club wall. Interesting about horses and blood, though.
Chris 
|
Paul Jackson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 61
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 8:07 pm: | |
Whats up Guys...and Gals,
Yea, Timsta..that is an interesting point, but I have to agree with Chris...If it was Jack, then he was still in the yard, if wasnt then the killer was gone.
Paul |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Chief Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 586
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 7:59 am: | |
Hi All
Sorry if I have not responded to any of the posts mentioning my name. I have spent the past week in bed after having thrown my back out.
I know that a horse will refuse to pass the dead body of another horse unless the rider forces it to do so. I wonder if the same is true of the dead body of a human being.
All The Best
Gary |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 524
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 4:11 pm: | |
Hope you are OK now Gary
Take Care
Natalie |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2249
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 24, 2004 - 11:14 am: | |
Hi Gary
Hope you're recovered.
PS Did you use that week to read "War and Peace"?
Robert |
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 609
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 24, 2004 - 3:33 pm: | |
Back onto thread now darlings!!!!!
Right for what its worth IMHO....
1.Hutch
2.Barnett
3.Mc Carthy
4.Tim Donovan
whoops that four!
well?? !!!
Cheers
Suzi |
Busy Beaver
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 4:08 pm: | |
For what it's worth My top suspect at this moment in time is George Hutchison (British). Failing him, an unknown Whitechapel resident/frequenter who has not yet been identified or put forward.
Busy Beaver |
Maria Giordano
Sergeant
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 14
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 2:26 pm: | |
I'm just an old-fashiioned kind of girl so I'll go with:
David Cohen/ Polish Jew
Arby LaBruckman
unknown local guy
Mags |
Paul Jackson
Inspector
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 193
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 8:11 pm: | |
Maria
Arby LaBruckman? You call that ole fashion?
haha....He is indeed an interesting suspect.
I like the unknown guy too. That's who it probably was anyway.
Paul |
Maria Giordano
Sergeant
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 15
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 12:47 pm: | |
Hey, Paul---
While Arby is a recent find, I think of him as one of the "classic" types of suspects as opposed to Sickert, Maybrick and the Henpicked Blackmailer.
Mags |
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