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  | Archive through May 05, 2004 | Dan Norder | 25 | 1 | 5-05-04 7:12 am |
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Sarah Long
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 1104
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 9:36 am: |       |
Dan,
So Dew says that his memory is good, and therefore we should just believe him?
Well, how exactly would you suggest that he prove it? If he is adamant that his memory of that day are fine then how will we ever know if his memory was dodgy or that what he remembered was correct?
Monty,
I'm sorry but I don't buy it. You didn't answer my question about people with photographic memories. What about them? Their memory doesn't work in the same way.
Not everyone's memory is the same. My brother, for example, has probably already forgot what he did this morning and yet I have a very good memory and can recall things years after they have happened. I have also been told by my parents that they are surprised about what I remember from when I was younger and also how accurate I am.
Now, I don't know exactly what has gone on in this situation and ok, maybe this man's memory is hazy (although he did emphasize the fact that this man was young, even calling him a youth) and Ally asks a good question about why the others have different accounts of what happened, but no-one can say that everyone's memory is the same. Well, people could say it, but they'd be wrong.
Sarah
Smile and the world will wonder what you've been up to 
Smile too much and the world will guess  |
Maria Giordano
Sergeant
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 21
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 10:39 am: | |
Sarah-
People with photographic memories( eidetic imagery) are few and far between. Even they don't always remember things over great periods of time,
People can remember wrongly without being liars.I'm sure Dew could have passed a lie detector test that what he remembered was the absolute accurate account of events, as could your Gran and as I could have.
I still believe what's in my head now even though I have contemporary,documented evidence which I myself wrote to the contrary!
I'm not saying that every memory is wrong.Many of the things we all remember, even from our childhoods, are correct and are verified by family members who were adults at the time .
But sometimes, especially with exciting,emotionally charged memories we can be way off base. We go over the event again and again and each time we solidify what the stroy should be and exclude things that don't make sense. After time, we're remembering a memory construct instead of the actual thing we ovserved long ago.
This is a natural function of the brain and doesn't happen conciously or with intent to deceive. The brain just likes things to be nice and neatly tied up.(just like the reason we tend to see patterns in randomness;the brain abhors chaos.)
Mags |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1085
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 10:46 am: | |
Sarah,
I'm sorry but I don't buy it. You didn't answer my question about people with photographic memories. What about them? Their memory doesn't work in the same way.
Yes I did...dont you remember ?
.... and once again, everyones memory works the same.
Its just that some are very good at recalling memory. You are good at recalling it. Your brother seems not so hot.
You may be accurate but I bet you £3.50 that you are not exact.
I mean, I could prove this by asking you a question.
Wheres my tatoo ?
Monty
I don't share your greed, the only card I need is
The Ace Of Spades.....and dont forget the joker  |
Sarah Long
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 1108
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 11:03 am: | |
Monty,
Yes I did...dont you remember ?
Don't you try and trick me.
Its just that some are very good at recalling memory.
This is what I'm saying. Dew may be very good at recalling memory. We have no proof that he isn't.
Ok, so memory fades, but if I don't remember something I say I don't or I leave it out. It confuses me as to why Dew would emphasize a fact that he was maybe unsure on.
Oh, and your tatoo....well I wouldn't like to say.
Sarah
Smile and the world will wonder what you've been up to
Smile too much and the world will guess |
Greg Hutton
Sergeant
Username: Greg
Post Number: 16
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 12:41 pm: | |
Hello all,
has anyone else seen the Bloody Britons programme about J.T.R. presented by Rory Mcgrath on cable/sat here in the U.K.(possibly on Discovery channel)?
There is a section in it where they analyse memory. Whilst filming in broad daylight a young man started shouting at them, making them re-do the whole piece, much to Rorys annoyance. The whole thing was a setup to see how much info could be taken in by a witness. They set up an identity parade and Rory, who wasn't in on the stunt, had to pick out the shouting man. This was only a short time after the event maybe an hour at most. He failed to notice that the person wasn't in the parade but he still positively identified an innocent person.
Memory doesn't fade, it's how we as individuals interpret and log events at the time that causes the problems,and afterwards when recollecting we make things fit our version.
Regards,
Greg |
pf arm
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 8:35 am: | |
Going back to what was said earlier about why McCarthy had someone go round to the room to check fo MK. Isn't it plausable that IF rumours were going round that Mary Kelly was not answering the door etc, that McCarthy would had sent someone round to check she hadn't absconded without paying the rent rather than to collect the rent?
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Richard Brian Nunweek
Chief Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 858
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 5:05 pm: | |
Dan,
The quotation about Mrs coxs neice , comes from the 1991 A-Z PAGE 91.
The imformation came from the late Dan Farson.
Quote.
The night of the murder of Mary Kelly ,my aunt was very young, just married with one child, she was standing at her door,and waiting for her husband who was a bit of a boozer.
She saw mary coming through the iron gate, with this gentleman, a real toff.
mary was always bringing home men , mostly seaman from a pub called the frying pan, singing and holding their arms, with a bottle of gin under her arm,
This night as they got under the lamp, in the court they stopped.
Marys words were' all right love, dont pull me along'.
My aunt said they were only a few yards away from her at the door, she said she saw him as plain as looking at her hand.
He was a fine looking man, wore an overcoat with a cape, high hat, not a silk one, and gladstone bag.
as they went into the house, Mary called out 'Goodnight'to my aunt.
Well there you are Dan, a full quotation.
Regards Richard. |
Ally
Chief Inspector
Username: Ally
Post Number: 588
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 6:36 pm: | |
Ahem...
Okay Richard. Let's say that fifty years later, Dew was right. Now please explain why in the world McCArthy, Bower and Beck all perjure themselves over who went to the police station?
 |
Dan Norder
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 68
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 8:16 pm: | |
Richard,
Thanks for giving a citation. I need to get that book, even if that particular anecdote seems highly dubious.
pf arm,
Good point. That's quite plausible.
Greg,
Yeah, there have been lots of examples and studies like that. But the point about memories fading is a little more complicated than that, because recalling memories and thinking about events can put you into imaginative states where you try to visualize things again, and you can think about what ifs (and what other people said) and actually burn those into your memory as if they were the real ones.
Dan Norder, editor, Ripper Notes |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Chief Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 859
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 3:14 am: | |
Hi Ally,
How can I explain the inquest reports?.
Speculation..... Dew describes the messenger as a young man , and later a youth.
First question to ask is 'How old was Bowyer'?
Nothing that I have heard over the years indicates he was a youth, rather the opposite infact.
If the youth was for exsample 13-15 years old, he may because of his age, been kept out of the official picture. Bowyer may well have seen kelly as soon as the youth reported the incident to McCarthy, and then once confirmed, mcCarthy too went to room 13, it is then quite possible that the youth , Bowyer and Mccarthy all went to commercial street police station, the youth being some what quicker.
The fact is Ally, The whole incident is a mystery, How can I dispute Dews account, also the inquests reports, and how can I make real sense of it all.
It is similar to Coxs neice, she gave Farson a plausible account of Mrs coxs meeting with kelly , with some good observations, yet the description of the man seen with kelly is in complete contrast to her official statement.
I suppose in a nutshell, its a question'what is the truth?'
It is there somewhere, if i had to choose, i would prefer later recollections, rather then those made in the chaos at the time, there would have been no pressure to say the right thing, and release nothing that could harm investigations.
I believe Dews account of the 9th november, I also believe Mrs coxs neice version, and as known by everyone on these boards i believe farsons imformant on [grave spitting incident].
I appreciate I come under flak , for such views, but I am afraid thats my gut feeling.
Regards Richard. |
Busy Beaver
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 3:45 am: | |
Hi Richard, re cox's neice's memory recall not entirely sure it's for real- particularly the bit about the Gladstone Bag. How often has the bag been the 1st thing that a lady would look for before going with a client? It has become senonimous with Ripper descriptions. Also depending on the time of this supposed sighting there is no mention of the handerchief- which would be quite important especially if we are to believe George Hutchison's testimoney. The description of the gentleman fairs well- tall, long over-coat, gentleman appearance. So what we have is- Mrs Cox and Hutch possibly saw the same man and Lewis did see Hutch standing outside the court around the 2.00am mark. Why did Cox and Lewis not see each other? Time Factors??? Busy Beaver  |
Vincent
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 9:36 am: | |
Mr. Nunweek wrote: "First question to ask is 'How old was Bowyer'?"
This is a good question. Has anyone managed to track him down in any census?
Regards, Vincent
|
Sarah Long
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 1118
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 11:06 am: | |
Vincent,
I'm not too sure how old he was but he certainly sounded like an older man and certainly not a 'youth'. Wasn't his nickname due to the fact in was in the army in india or something?
Sarah
Smile and the world will wonder what you've been up to
Smile too much and the world will guess |
Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 234
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 11:16 am: | |
Vincent, Sarah,
Check the Witnesses > Bowyer thread for some research by Chris Scott on his age.
Don. |
Ally
Chief Inspector
Username: Ally
Post Number: 592
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 11:24 am: | |
So Richard,
Your contention is that the "heat of the moment" caused Bowyer to lie about going to the station, for McCarthy to forget who he had sent to Mary's apartment and what his reason was for doing so, and for a police officer sworn to uphold the law to allow perjury about a situation he was involved in to go on uncontested?
I would think that McCarthy would be a more accurate witness as to why he sent someone to Mary's apartment and who that person was than someone recollecting events decades later.
It amuses me that you get outraged that we would suggest that Dew was "lying", though no one has suggested that, yet you have no problem stating that 3 other people perjured themselves because you would rather believe a different version of events.
Bottom line: McCarthy knows who he sent and what his motives were for doing it better than anyone else. Unless you can provide a clear reason why he would perjure himself over something so trivial, Dees recollections must simply be taken as the natural distortion of events that happens with the passing of decades.
P.S...also if you contention that such a traumatic event would so imprint itself on the mind that details would remain sharp 50 years later, you can't claim trauma would have caused them to forget those details 7 days later.
(Message edited by ally on May 06, 2004)
|
Sarah Long
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 1119
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 11:47 am: | |
Ally,
To be fair, Richard didn't say that Bowyer didn't go to the station, just that this 'youth' went too and ran faster and so got there first.
Unless you can provide a clear reason why he would perjure himself over something so trivial, Dees recollections must simply be taken as the natural distortion
I'm not saying that McCarthy or Bowyer lied in any way, but sometimes people do tell small lies for reasons that other may find absurd and I'm not saying that this was the case. I also think it's quite unfair on Richard to ask him to explain something for which there obviously in no simple answer if it was the case.
To put it simply, say I tell a tiny lie about something for which there is no reason to do so, does that mean that because others cannot find a reason for my tiny insignificant lie, then I couldn't have lied?
Sarah
Smile and the world will wonder what you've been up to
Smile too much and the world will guess |
Ally
Chief Inspector
Username: Ally
Post Number: 593
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 11:59 am: | |
A tiny lie is slightly different than perjury. One being illegal and the other not.
And it is Richard's contention that we are all outrageous for suggesting that Dew might have lied and wanting us to provide explanations as to why he would have lied and why we refuse to accept that he is telling the truth.
Simply put, it is far more outragous to accuse three people of perjury than it is to believe that a man might have misremembered something decades after the fact and therefore, if you plan to accuse three people, then you ought to be able to back that up with some sort of reason or evidence for them having done so other than such flimsy support as a man's memoirs written 50 years after the event.
(Message edited by Ally on May 06, 2004)
|
Sarah Long
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 1121
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 12:05 pm: | |
Ally,
I suppose so, but it is quite hard to explain why anyone makes strange lies though, not that I'm saying anyone lied. Dew probably remembered things wrongly but I just find it interesting on why he emphasizes the age of the person who came into the station to report it.
Maybe there was another murder that day (although I think we'd know) or maybe a young boy came into the station earlier to report something else and he confused him with Bowyer 50 years later.
Sarah
Smile and the world will wonder what you've been up to
Smile too much and the world will guess |
|
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