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RipperHistorian
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 9:52 pm: |       |
I think that instead of sitting around this board trying to figure out who JTR really was by using evidence that already exists, evidence that clearly does not point to any killer 100%, we should start a project to exhume the graves of the 5 accepted ripper victims.
We should start with Mary Kelly as she is the most likely to yield usable evidence and she has no surviving family.
Who would be willing to take part in the greatest attempt to yield new and very revealing evidence about the most famous murder case of all time?
The main barrier to doing such a project is not going to be moral objection or political problems, it is going to be COLD HARD CASH.
So, my question is: Who wants to put their money where their mouth is and really solve this case?
If there was forensice evidence left on the body from the killer of MJK we could possibly determine:
race, hair color, more about wounds/weapon, whether anatomical knowledge was possessed, and tons of other information.
I am dead serious, if anybody is willing to engage in some SERIOUS RIPPEROLOGY, instead of just talking about it, please respond so that we can start what could amount to the biggest breakthrough in the history of this case.
Tim |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Chief Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 753
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 3:06 pm: | |
Hi Tim,
You cannot be serious, these poor unfortunates have been dead 116 years, we can not even be certain that they are buried in the said sites, if any remains were found, we could not be certain they were the remains of the persons, we infact would gain nothing.
I appreciate that we are all anxious to obtain the truth, but the time gap is too long, to exhume the victims bodies. also the authorities would never allow such a enterprise, without proof that a particular victim , would lead to the rippers identity..
Dont get me wrong , I would welcome more imformation, but I can find no logic in exhuming the graves.
Regards Richard. |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1324
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 3:39 pm: | |
Tim,
I naturally agree with Richard here. You must be dreaming.
Unless the soil on the grave sites is of very specific character, it is questionable if there is anything left -- if the exact locations can be found in the first place. Graves are in general reused, so I can tell you that such efforts are impossible after over 100 years. To find a number of skeletons during archeological excavations are one thing, to find the remains of one specific person, buried in papuer's graves, on a grave yard is doomed to fail.
As Richard says, it has been too long. I am afraid there is only one way to get as deep as possible into the Ripper case, and that is from an intellectual and academic point of view, combined with modern experiences of police work.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 185
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 4:39 pm: | |
Tim,
Let me quickly join Richard and Glenn in saying that your suggestion is rather far-fetched in several ways. Moreover, I'd like to add something I have wanted to say for a while now. That is, since you are now a regular poster why don't you register? And when you do, adopt a little less presumptuous handle than Ripper Historian. Maybe Donald Rumbelow or Stewart Evans would be entitled to that name, but not many others. Nothing personal, just my opinion.
Don. |
AP Wolf
Chief Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 957
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 4:57 pm: | |
I've got the cash, you lunatic.
So let's haul them out. I'll pay Wilson and anybody else to stand there and pronounce Freudian on the age-old remains of long-dead whores. I'll even pay Cornball to come along and DNA their spit. Bring along Canter and we'll trot around the bodies singing Yiddish folk songs and sharpening our knives.
I'll get Sickert to paint our portrait.
Whatever you drinking give it up.
|
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1326
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 5:10 pm: | |
Donald,
Good points, there, as usual.
(No offense, Tim.)
AP,
"I've got the cash, you lunatic.
So let's haul them out. I'll pay Wilson and anybody else to stand there and pronounce Freudian on the age-old remains of long-dead whores. I'll even pay Cornball to come along and DNA their spit. Bring along Canter and we'll trot around the bodies singing Yiddish folk songs and sharpening our knives.
I'll get Sickert to paint our portrait."
Now you're talking, old chap. Let's go for it! 
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2241
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 5:34 pm: | |
I can provide the shovel.
Robert |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1327
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 5:42 pm: | |
You've always been a nice guy, Robert. You may do the digging as well.
The Guinness is on me in the nearest pub, if we find something. Let's make it a spring outing.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2243
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 6:01 pm: | |
I can provide the bad back.
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 501
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 6:11 pm: | |
Whatever brought this on AP?
Natalie |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1328
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 6:47 pm: | |
Robert,
Ah! So you're visiting a physiotherapist as well?
Hmm. sorry, I guess we are to take this thread seriously... (which is not easy, though, I might add...).
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Paul Jackson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 76
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 8:03 pm: | |
My Grandfather has a backhoe we could use so we wouldnt have to worry about straining our backs.
Paul |
Brad McGinnis
Inspector
Username: Brad
Post Number: 158
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 8:57 pm: | |
A noble idea with no practical merit. Even after only 50 years in Englands moist slightly acid soil the only remains that MIGHT be found would be dental enamel.
Brad McGinnis, C.H., CNA, B.S.A. |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1329
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 9:37 pm: | |
Hey Paul!
What is a backhoe? I can't find it in my dictionary...
I think I can get hold of a caterpillar or excavator!
Do you think we need a permit to use it?
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on March 21, 2004)
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Paul Jackson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 77
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 9:47 pm: | |
Hey Glenn,
A backhoe is an american term for an excavator.
Its kinda like a tractor with a large digging arm on the back. Hence the name "backhoe".
If they give us a permit to dig up a bunch of dead bodies then they may overlook us having the permit on the backhoe.
Paul
Paul
(Message edited by paulj on March 21, 2004) |
Andy and Sue Parlour
Detective Sergeant
Username: Tenbells
Post Number: 106
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 5:08 am: | |
Hello All,
Regarding exhumation. The laws of this country are very rigid. No exhumation can take place without Home Office approval. To exhume a body there has to be a ongoing Police inquiry. Re-burial is also allowed due to land subsidence or re-building etc. These reasons are also subject to rigid regulations.
Archaeological excavations of a burial site can be allowed however, but the burials must be at least 500 years. Alas none of this criteria fall within the JTR case.
In most cases of exhumation where there is a Police inquiry and Home Office approval is granted, the task is carried out by Home Office
officials or Police from a neutral Division.
Its for this reason mass murderer Dr Harold Shipman recommended that all his victims be cremated, luckily some of the relatives refused and had burials. Based on forensics obtained from exhumations the Police had a satisfactory conviction.
A&S |
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 944
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 6:47 am: | |
I think that the idea of exhuming the bodies is far fetched I don't see that as any reason to attack Tim for his suggestion.
You are all nice people from my own experiences on this board, but I doubt Tim probably sees it that way at present and to be honest I couldn't blame him. I know that you don't mean offence but I would completely understand if Tim would feel uncomfortable putting forward any other ideas on here again.
I'm not talking about all of you obviously as not everyone who replied on here have said anything disrespectful to him but some have and (putting on teacher's cap) you know who you are.
Come on now, play nice.
That is all I have to say, not that I suppose anyone will pay me any attention as people will do what they want.
Sarah |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1331
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 6:48 am: | |
Paul,
Thanks. I'm learning something everyday here.
Andy and Sue,
Right you are. It sounds quite similar to the laws we have here in Sweden.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1332
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 6:55 am: | |
Come on, Sarah. We're just kidding around here.
After all, his post was kind of provocing anyway, so his far-fetched suggestion was quite funny in that context. No harm intended. We're just getting a little silly here.
After all, it has provided us with some new information. Now I know what a backhoe is.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Ronald James Russo Jr.
Sergeant
Username: Vladimir
Post Number: 21
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 8:36 am: | |
I say let the women rest, I feel they deserve at least that peace. It is not like we can incarcerate or execute the person who committed the murders. While it is an interesting thought, I think that our interest in finding JTR is not worth disturbing these poor lady's resting places.
Vlad |
RipperHistorian
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 6:41 pm: | |
All,
There is evidence to support that the analysis of long dead human remains can glean "some" info from them depending on the condition of the burial sites and bodies. I was under the impression that some of the grave sights of the "unfortunates" were known.
I was also under the imprssion that since a good portion of people here are "truly" interested in finding the identity of the ripper. I know that a lot of written books, and some very very good books indeed about the evidence, suspects, etc. I was simply suggesting that perhaps a serious endeavor should be made to answer some questions for sure instead of engaging in pure speculation. New, solid evidence from the actual victims could clear up a lot of speculation about the case, even if the body of only one victim were to be found intact. It is better to try and fail then to never have tried at all, the longer we wait, the less there is that will be left to analyze.
Maybe my suggestion is a bit extreme, but if positive results were found we could find information that not even the police and doctors of the time would have had access to. If there was even a small chance that we could find something, it could shed a lot of light on the case.
Richard and Glenn,
Perhaps you are 100% correct, but wouldn't you like to know for sure?
Donald,
My screen name was never meant to imply that I was a champion ripperologist, it was just the first thing that came to my mind the first time I posted (I am interested in the Ripper and I am a graduate student in History). Sorry if it offends you. But it is not meant to mean "The Master Ripper Historian" it is just supposed to mean that I am a historian interested in the ripper. I have all the respect in the world for you and the other great ripperologists (Rumbelow and Evans, etc)
AP Wolf,
Yeah, let's make a nice sarcastic and creative insult towards me. Lord knows there is no way that you would ever exploit a bunch of dead whores, you have all the respect in the world for them and believe we should leave them at peace. OOOHH wait no, you spend all your time writing a book about them and bringing a bunch of poor unfortunates into the spotlight of the entire world by telling their story so that you can be a star when everybody agrees that you found the "real ripper". I have never insulted you, but for some reason you chose to insult me, it's fine if you don't like my idea, but you don't need to take cheap shots by calling me a lunatic and telling me that I drink (which I don't). So yeah, you put your heart and soul into some theory because you have limited evidence, rather than take a real progressive step forward towards real information. Is picking up a shovel to tough of a job for you to handle? I hope you will refrain from insulting me further.
Tim |
RipperHistorian
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 6:55 pm: | |
P.S.
I did not mean to imply by initial post that great work was not being done here, I was trying to get some enthusiasm for a new project. Maybe it is frustration at having been looking at information over and over again with a great hunger for the truth that makes me just want to go grab some perfect evidence. It would be so great to be able to get some concrete physical evidence. Perhaps my enthusiasm made my post seem a little bit "gung ho" but I really do think something could be gained from such an endeavor. My apologies to anybody who was insulted by my post, as I certainly had not meant to downplay the work that anybody has done on this case.
Sincerely Yours,
Tim |
SK S
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 6:13 am: | |
Exhuming is not an option.There are no options,only best guesses.Mine? It was James Maybrick but only if the piss-head scouse chancer gives us the real truth will that particular avenue ever be explored.The worst thing that ever happened to the search for answers was/is that idiot scouser on the make.Somewhere I suspect he has told/written the truth but which 'version' one believes is a debate in itself.One thing is for sure,if the diary is fake,if the watch is fake,then we shall never,ever know was JtR.There are no other clues. }} |
RipperHistorian
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 8:17 pm: | |
There was an interesting debate on this same subject under the general discussion topic "Will We Ever Know".
Some people do seem to think that some possibilities exist for this to work.
Tim |
RipperHistorian
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 8:22 pm: | |
The body of Jesse James was exhumed from his grave and they did a DNA comparison to known living descendants of him on the History (or maybe Discovery) Channel. They gleaned quite a bit of information from this exhumation. Under the "Will We Ever Know" post there is even a suggesiton that DNA could be obtained without actually exhuming the body.
I am honestly surprised that there is not more enthusiasm for this endeavor.
Are you telling me that it wouldn't be a great find to retrieve the body of Mary Kelly? Just think of what could be told by such a find. Think of how many questions could be answered?
Give it some thought,
Tim |
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