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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3779
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 1:21 pm: | 
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OK folks!
You've probably already heard about this. But anyway...
More bombings on London subway stations and buses today! 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4703777.stm
Exactly two weeks after the last ones. This time -- let's hope this is true -- no one seems to have been injured (besides one person with some slight injuries), though, and the bombs seems to have been quite small and of minor impact.
All the best
G. Andersson, writer/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1603
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 3:04 pm: |
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Hi Glenn
Thanks for this Glenn. It does seem that this time only the detonators went off and the main charges did not blow for some reason. A scary time in London and I feel for everyone having to contend with these perilous times.
All my best
Chris
**********************
Floral Tribute at King's Cross Underground
White chrysanthemums and orange-tinged yellow roses
in cellophane with turquoise prayer beads
photographed with the words of Issa:
in this world
we walk on the roof of hell
gazing at flowers
Christopher T. George
* Follow the link to see to see Ashe's tribute using these words of Issa's:
http://thegreenleaf.co.uk/HP/Issa/49issaworld2.htm
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
See "Jack--The Musical" by Chris George & Erik Sitbon
The Drama of Jack the Ripper Weekend
Charlotte, NC, September 16-18, 2005
http://www.actorssceneunseen.com/ripper.asp
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Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1232
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 3:21 pm: |
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Glenn
besides one person with some slight injuries
According to the report I heard, the injured person was one of the bombers. And going one stage further with the rumour, there was a suggestion that the device was in his rucksack, which he was wearing. Not a very powerful blast, if that's true.
Chris Phillips
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3784
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 3:22 pm: |
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Hi Chris George,
Yes, I just heard that now as well.
In other words, this might have ended in another catastrophe similar to or worse than the one two weeks ago.
Scary indeed.
Considering the police found plans of an attack against the sport's arena in Madrid, in the head-quarters of those who lay behind the train bombings there, it indicates a worrying scenario, that terrorists of this kind might strike several times on the same location.
Not good.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on July 21, 2005)
G. Andersson, writer/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3785
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 3:26 pm: |
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Chris,
Yes it sounds almost clumsy and amateurish -- thank God.
One rumour I heard on the news regarding one of the blasts was that in the bus, where the driver at one point heard a bang and thought the bus had been hit by a car. When he later checked out the bus he found a package or a bag that had exploded. Sounds like these guys might not be total experts on their explosive stuff, and maybe we really should be thankful for that.
Let's hope the police identifies these groups and rings them in before they manages to do any more damage.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on July 21, 2005)
G. Andersson, writer/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1604
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 1:20 pm: |
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Hi Glenn & Chris
I am monitoring the news about the man shot dead this morning at Stockwell Station. The man is said by the police to be not one of the would-be bombers from yesterday but nonetheless somehow connected to the bomb plots.
Considering that the fellows were apparently making the explosives in their bathtub(s) using fertilizer, it does appear they are not the most sophisticated crew. It could be either that yesterday's bombs were either not properly primed, or else as I believe I heard one expert say, the bomb mixture might have deteriorated with time. Still, worrying times in Britain right now!!! 
I sent an e-mail to MSNBC last night. I travel every day through Washington D.C.'s Union Station and on the D.C. Metro but I see no evidence that bomb-sniffing dogs are being used as they are, I understand, on the transit system in London. The railway tickets of people boarding trains were checked for two days only after the July 7 London bombings but not since. Civil liberties people are protesting a plan in New York to randomly search commuters baggage. That would seem to me to be a small price to pay for any law-abiding citizen.
All my best
Chris
(Message edited by ChrisG on July 22, 2005)
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
See "Jack--The Musical" by Chris George & Erik Sitbon
The Drama of Jack the Ripper Weekend
Charlotte, NC, September 16-18, 2005
http://www.actorssceneunseen.com/ripper.asp
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David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 956
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 2:52 pm: |
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The searches in New York seem pretty worthless to me--for one thing, you can simply walk away if you don't care to be searched. What's to stop a bomber from leaving one station and going to another? These searches are a waste of manpower, although I guess they provide an illusion of security.
Random searches don't provide enough coverage. Racial profiling's no good either--they just create a lot of ill will in a whole section of the law abiding populace, and besides, who's to say there's not another John Walker Lindh walking around? Or an Eric Rudolph? It is simply asking too much of the NYPD or any security force to spot the nuts who are undoubtedly out there, especially in a multi-cultural center like New York. Look at the London bombers--they don't look particularly sinister to me.
Maybe there's sort of electronic surveillance system that covers everyone. The drawback is that you can't conduct a subway or bus system like an airport. It's impractical, nobody would get anywhere.
Frankly, I don't think there's much anybody can do except "just get on with it", as they say in London.
Dave |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1606
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 3:24 pm: |
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Hi Dave
I do beg to differ with you. A random search and at least a police presence, obvious heightened security, might be sufficient to deter a would-be bomber who might have to pass scrutiny and who will worry that they not get through. If you can just walk onto the trains without screening of any type, as you can at present most times at the stations I pass through in Baltimore and Washington, D.C., it makes it all the more perilous, I think, for the commuters. Again, though, I do think that use of bomb-sniffing dogs in Washington, New York, and other cities with mass transit could be a key move at this time.
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
See "Jack--The Musical" by Chris George & Erik Sitbon
The Drama of Jack the Ripper Weekend
Charlotte, NC, September 16-18, 2005
http://www.actorssceneunseen.com/ripper.asp
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David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 958
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 3:39 pm: |
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Hi Chris,
No problem, we all have different opinions. I'd suggest to you that someone prepared to blow themselves up and riding a religious/suicide high would not in the least be deterred by random searches or by any police presence--check out some of Israel's stringent measures. Besides, look at the redundant little groups terrorists seem to work in in London--a random search might get one, racial profiling might get another, but they're not going to get them all. Open societies are simply vulnerable to terrorism.
I agree that bomb-sniffing dogs might be helpful though.
Dave |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3797
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 6:25 pm: |
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Hi Chris,
Last I heard from the authorities of the London police, they declared that letting life go on as it should would be the best thing. To them the idea of searching people on buses and trains sounded a bit unrealistic in such a big city and would disturb to much of the communications and the daily life, and I agree with them.
As Dave says, with these kinds of terror actions from within the country there aren't that much you can do, except to continue the surveillance of the groups known to commit certain acts, and asking people to keep an extra cautious look.
I think the vast system of surveillance cameras in London is one the greatest assets they have, and it is quite an impressive system that is also linked to a data bank where known criminals are registred for easier identification. I would assume it is one of the best systems of the world.
All the best
G. Andersson, writer/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Bob Hinton
Inspector
Username: Bobhinton
Post Number: 337
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 6:56 am: |
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The problem with searching suicide bombers is, as they found out in Israel, these searches tend to take place in queues.
When the bomber reaches the head of the line he quite happily detonates the explosives, ensuring that he takes some security personnel with him.
The bombers purpose is to murder and maim as many people as he/she can. There is an optimum target but if he/she can't reach that then detonation will take place anywhere.
I believe the only solution is to do what the Israelis do. They have highly trained spotters, mainly at airports who can pick out potential bombers just by observation.
I attended a lecture given by one of these people at a Copex exhibition several years ago. He a played a video which showed them using this method as against mechancial devices, such as detectors and sniffers. The Americans using the technology caught four out of ten 'bombers' the Israelis caught all ten.
The main message was that to rely too much on technology was a mistake - a sentiment with which I heartily concur.
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David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 962
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 1:34 pm: |
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Hi Bob,
Thanks very much for that, you sure raised some valid points and no one can deny that the Israelis certainly have much experience in this area. But Israel provides a lot more than spotters; they also have a very strong military presence on the ground. I have read that one of their methods is to approach passengers, look them in the eye, and say "Shalom". I guess the Islamic extremist is supposed to be put off by that. Over here, maybe they could say "Mickey Mouse" or something but I don't think that would work very well.
I think that if we had these sort of spotters in the States, they wouldn't come from the military but rather from the private sector, who would only pay them minimum wage--they'd all be high school dropouts. I still don't see how you train people to spot suicide bombers. I guess racial profiling, but I am not hollering "racism". Seriously, what characteristics do you look for? Obviously, it's very natural for us to look at people with Middle Eastern descent. But racial profilers can't stop there. How about black muslims (we already profile our black population anyway). How about young girls of Palestinian descent-they've carried out several bombings in Israel. We might also add residents of the U.K., now that it turns out that the London bombers were British (as was Richard Reid, the so-called shoe bomber from 2001)?
Well, I'm not for any of that. Frankly, that sort of profiling only seems to nab people like Cat Stevens. If the authorities are going to conduct searches, then searches should be thorough, balls out and not half-assed, optional affairs--everyone should be searched and we should just put up with the hassle of missing the occassional bus or train. I don't think people will put up with that too long, even if most are willing right now. Patrons of public transportation are impatient and perpetually in a hurry (I know, having been a passenger on Chicago's El for eight years).
People are always willing to volunteer the other guy for searches, but just you wait until everybody experiences them over a period of a few months. It's always the white guy in the suit who complains most loudly at the airport--I am talking about my experience in the United States and not the U.K. Here, we are already complaining about airport security and have been for a long time.
I think the best defense is the alert passenger. I don't think Western democracies are built to live in a climate of intrusive security and fear; we have just had it too good for too long.
Another thing Israel has that we don't is a wall. I understand the frustration they must have, but I wouldn't want to see that over here. The good news is that Israel has seen a decline in bombings (I think the last was in February). I think a big reason for this is that the leadership of the PLO changed in Nov-Jan, with Mahmoud Abbas coming in, and not the wall.
Cheers,
Dave |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4719
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 2:03 pm: |
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Hi Dave and all
I wish Cat Stevens would make some more records - he did some good stuff.
I think that human beings aren't programmed to remain on perpetual high alert. Look at the way the Germans in WW2 started omitting safety procedures when sending messages, and consequently helped us to break their code.
The trouble is that knowledge percolates so efficiently, that just about anyone can make a bomb if he puts his mind to it. Frightening.
Robert |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 963
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 2:17 pm: |
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Hi Robert,
I believe he's made several, but not the folksy stuff he was famous for. I thought I heard that he was going to make a new one. I remember he was over here just after 9/11 and sang something old, which of course he had sworn he would never do. I can't remember which one it was--not the obvious "Peacetrain". Maybe it was "Moonshadow"? That's one of my chief memories of that period just after 9/11, Cat Stevens (I guess it's better to call him Yusef Islam) shyly singing one of his old songs for us--it was impromptu, he didn't have a guitar or anything. Nice to see after he had seemed so extreme during the 80s.
Cheers,
Dave |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4720
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 2:47 pm: |
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Hi Dave
I didn't know he'd been extreme - I lost sight of him once he dropped out of music.
I know he did a one-off concert a few years ago called I Have No Cannons That Roar.
Robert |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 964
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 3:22 pm: |
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Hi Robert,
My sense is that when he converted, he went kind of hardcore into Islam, Ayatollah-style. I'll probably get into trouble for saying so, but it's similar to some born-again Christians who turn very judgemental and conservative after they've been saved. I guess it's the flush of first love sort of thing or relief at not having to live an unhappy life--I don't know, not being a religious person myself. Anyway, back when the Ayatollah passed the fatwah on Salman Rushdie for writing The Satanic Verses, Stevens was quoted as agreeing with the Ayatollah Khomeini that, well yeah, Rushdie ought to be killed for criticizing Islam. To be fair, I think Stevens still maintains that he was misquoted. Whether he's hedging or not, I don't know, but a lot of radio stations stopped playing his music (as if the songs themselves were bad). I remember 10,000 Maniacs had just covered "Peacetrain" and they pulled it off new pressings of whatever album that was on and stopped performing it for a time. Of course, "Peacetrain" is a perfectly great song no matter what. Stevens's attitude was "do what you like with those old songs, I don't care about them anyway and I'll never sing them again because I'm all about Islam now."
I don't think he holds the hardline view he had as a new convert and seems to have mellowed a bit. In the interim, he's done a lot of charity work. I don't know if some bureaucrat thought the charties were suspicious or what (I have no doubt that Yusef Islam is a bona fide humanitarian), or if it was a case of someone holding a grudge for his having sided with the Ayatollah Khomeini (who is still despised over here although he's been dead for awhile now).
Whatever, it was nice to see him over here making a gesture in 2001 and I was certainly moved by it.
On the next episode of "You Said I Said", we'll examine John Lennon's Jesus statement. Also: did Robert Johnson really sell his soul at the crossroads? (The answer is YES).
Cheers,
Dave |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2233
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 6:13 am: |
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Chris,All,
Heart breakingly sad about the young Brazilian
man.
Another casualty of these awful times.
Think I will leave it at that.
Natalie |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1435
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 7:59 am: |
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Hi,
A tragic accident and to be honest i am horrified.
if the police officers were that concerned that this foreign looking gentleman who had just left a block of flats that were being watched may be in poccession of a explosive device why was he not detained at the scene but allowed to board a bus, and then allowed to enter a underground station before being told to stop?.
To chase a suspect through a populated area, believing the suspect was carrying a bomb is sheer madness, and to use a powerful firearm in a small area whether trained or not is extremely dangerous.
It seems to me part of police procedure ie. await till a suspect is at the crime scene before apprehension rather then prevention in the first place.
A Throughly inhuman act on what turned out to be a innocent man heaven forbid if the police force in general are fully armed in our country.
Stop these acts of terror by the minority by all means , even if necessary stop the suspect by the use of a firearm, but five shots at point blank range into a persons head is just something out of the old roaring twenties period, and i found the whole episode and procedures followed something that is disturbing.
Thank goodness the poor soul was not of muslim faith, one can imagine the reprisals...
Regards Richard. |
Bob Hinton
Inspector
Username: Bobhinton
Post Number: 338
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 8:30 am: |
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Dear David,
Re your post of 23rd.
These spotters aren't your normal minimum wage high school dropout types we usually see loafing around supermarkets bedecked with gaudy badges etc. They are highly intelligent, often with psychology degrees, very highly trained super profilers if you like.
The case this chap was telling us about was when he spotted a man in a queue to board an aircraft. The spotter stood next to the machinery when it did the checks and nothing came up. He then asked one of the guards to hand search the suspects luggage which they did - again drawing a blank. He still insisted something was wrong and had the man taking in while he literally took the mans suitcase apart. In between the outer fibreglass shell and the inner lining of the case the terrorists had inserted a cloth lining soaked in a chemical and then dried to shape.
The result was a highly efficient incendiary device that igniting in the luggage compartment at thirty thousand feet would in all probablility brought the aircraft down.
When asked why he suspected the man he replied 'Look at him - he needs a shave, his clothes are old and worn, his shoes are scuffed - yet his luggage is brand new!'
From this telltale sign he observed the man more closely and noticed a whole string of factors that convinced him the man was a wrong un.
This is the sort of skill needed.
Bob |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2234
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 8:44 am: |
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I totally agee Richard.Its just horrifyingly sad.
Natalie |
Bob Hinton
Inspector
Username: Bobhinton
Post Number: 339
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 9:20 am: |
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Richard,
You ask several good questions about the shooting recently, why wasn't he stopped earlier, why were so many shots fired etc.
Perhaps I can answer a couple.
A friend once told me that trying to catch terrorists is like trying to snare jelly in a net!
Most terrorists work in a cellular formation, hundreds of little groups, each unaware of the others existence. However there is usually some form of common link, either a method of communication, such as email, telephone etc, or a messenger who will go from one group to the other. Now this messenger links group A to group B only, he doesn't link to group C, so if he is lifted he can only betray A & B.
The job of the authorities is to try and identify the link. They will not stop him - they simply follow. He leads them from A to B, they then surveil B in the hope they can identify the link to group C and so on.
The problem is they often have no idea what the link looks like so everyone who contacts A is a suspect.
In this case the Brazilian left the house housing group A and set off. He looked very similar in dress, equipment and racial features to others in the group, so he was followed.
Now at this point the watchers do not know whether he is a link or a bomber so they follow him.
However when his travel patterns, getting on a bus heading for the tube began to conform to the patterns of behaviour exhibited by the bombers they decided for public safety to lift him.
They called for him to stop and surrender and identified themselves as police. He understood English very well according to his parents, but instead of stopping he vaulted a barrier and ran towards a train, making a desperate effort to get on board. Why? I don't know. Neither I guess did the officers following him – but they had a pretty good idea.
Put this context. Put a coin on the back of your hand, hold your hand parallel with the floor and turn your hand until the coin falls. You have until the coin hits the floor to decide Bomber or Innocent. If you get it wrong dozens of people could be killed and maimed within seconds.
The police considered that his behaviour was that of a suicide bomber and took action. Now let us look at the action they took.
First of all consider the aim of a suicide bomber is to kill himself and as many of the 'enemy ' as he can. Pointing a gun at him and threatening to shoot is completely ineffective. He will detonate the explosives and die happy knowing he took some uniformed enemy with him!
Secondly marksmanship. You are going to have to forget Hollywood folks. When I used a handgun regularly I was pretty fair. With a SW mod 66 .357 Mag 6" barrel and using aimed shots I could put six rounds through a 50p piece at 25 metres. With a P85 Ruger 9mm semi auto I could put 15 rounds through a CD at 25 metres. However that is when I was on the range. When your heart is pumping, adrenaline is flooding your system, and something is flying past your ear making a very strange buzzing sound it’s a different story. You always aim for the largest target, the central body mass, fire in twos and hope he drops. You ALWAYS shoot to kill - shooting to seriously annoy doesn't really come in to it.
Thirdly effectiveness of firearms. In the movies a baddy gets hit and down he goes. Unfortunately that doesn't often happen. The amount of people killed instantly with one shot is about 10% of those hit! Unless you hit a vital organ with a bullet nothing much happens. Two cases. A police officer in a shootout with a drug dealer across the width of a police car. The officer fires several times and wonders why he keeps missing. The officer is hit several times but luckily his body armour saves him. He keeps firing but apparently keeps missing. Afterwards it is discovered the police officer had hit the other man 18 times and yet didn't stop him. Cole Younger a member of the James gang was hit 17 times and still walked to his jail cell, doffing his cap and talking to the ladies.
And lastly why so many shots to the head? Unfortunately it is another myth that a bullet through the brain kills someone instantly. Nonsense. There was a famous case (Mostly Murder, Sir Sydney Smith) where a man was shot through the brain with a large calibre handgun. The exit wound was some 2 1/2" in diameter and approximately a third of his brain was later found at the site of the shooting. He still managed to walk several miles and hold a perfectly rational conversation.
To instantly stop all function of the human body it has been determined the only guaranteed way to do this is to completely destroy the cortex of the brain. This is achieved by multiple shots to the head until the brain is literally disintegrated.
In the case of a suicide bomber there is no such thing as ‘subduing’ It takes a microsecond to detonate a bomb and I have seen several police officers fail to control a man completely. You can’t do it. Even if you pin him to the ground immobile – what happens when you try to get him to his feet?
What happened during this incident was a tragedy a mistake was made and an innocent man died. Unfortunately there are hundreds of occasions in our daily lives where a mistake can cost someone their life. Before condemning the police perhaps we should all give thanks that for the vast majority of us in our jobs a mistake can be rectified – but there are jobs where this is not possible.
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David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 965
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 9:56 am: |
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Hi Bob and all,
Yes, it's difficult when you are dealing with an enemy who blends in with the population. I understand in this unfortunate case suspicions were set off by this man's unusually thick coat. The coroner will have to hold an inquest (with a jury since this man died in custody). The Met will have their own I think it will be interesting to see what kind of verdict an independent judicial officer and jury will return. I'm sure one recommendation to the general public will be "don't run"; we will have to see if they have any criticism of the Met.
Cheers,
Dave |
Harry Mann
Detective Sergeant
Username: Harry
Post Number: 124
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 6:18 am: |
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One should not condemn the police for the action they took.Unless they have been in a situation where a person's life depend on a split second decision.I have been in that position.Sure the circunstances were different,but the result could have been the same,and in my case there would have been no public scrutiny,no accounting for my actions.I doubt I would even have had to submit a report.I was eighteen years old,and to this day believe I was set up to kill this person.My superiors would doubtless have congratulated me.It occured while I was a soldier.It did not occur during hostilities.
It is tragic,for all concerned,but it is a time when the police need the backing of the whole community,if they are to attain the safety the populance demands. |
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