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David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 827
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 2:10 pm: | 
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Here's a story by the BBC--the Flowers Portrait of Shakespeare has been determined to be an early 19th century fake. Now I'm familiar with the Chandos and Grafton portraits (alleged), but this is the first I've heard of the Flowers Shakespeare.
Look how the scientific analysis and historical context get along!
Dave |
David O'Flaherty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 1068
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 12:37 am: |
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Happy Trafalgar Bicentennial, Britain. A shame about Nelson though.
Dave |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1640
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 10:44 am: |
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Hi David
Thanks for the mention of the Trafalgar celebration. The official listing of this weekend's events can be seen at
http://www.trafalgar200.com/
As a bit of an aside, the Nelson monument in Liverpool is featured in a Gutenberg text, reprinting an article published in 1818 at "Nelson's Monument at Liverpool." The monument, on Exchange Flags behind the city's Town Hall, would have been very familiar to James Maybrick, whether he was Jack or not, and probably also to other suspects who had links to the city: Tumblety, Gladstone, Deeming, and James Kelly.
All my best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
http://christophertgeorge.blogspot.com/
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David O'Flaherty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 1070
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 11:28 am: |
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Hi Chris,
Thanks for those links. The National Archives has a nifty search engine on their site, Trafalgar Ancestors. Their database covers all the people who served with Nelson at Trafalgar. I notice several Flaherties are listed; one is even from my ancestral county of Galway (where Flaherties and O'Flaherties translate as Smith and Jones).
Hope you had a pleasant trip to the UK.
Cheers,
Dave |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1641
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 1:47 pm: |
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Hi David
Thanks so much for the list. I was excited to find there was apparently a Chris George at Trafalgar--
Christopher George aged 21 born in Cranack, near Truro, Cornwall, England.
Ship: HMS Tonnant
What makes this find doubly interesting is that HMS Tonnant was the flagship for the British fleet when the British attacked Washington and DC in 1814 that I have written about... though at this moment I have no way of know if the Cornish Chris George was still on board Tonnant at that time. Even if he wasn't, it's an interesting piece of info!
All my best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
http://christophertgeorge.blogspot.com/
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David O'Flaherty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 1096
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2005 - 12:44 pm: |
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Some American professors want to exhume Shakespeare to see whether he was murdered (by his son-in-law?). That's a new one to me. Since I believe Shakespeare has no descendants, I'm not sure whose permission they are trying to obtain. Weren't there some relatives of Shakespeare's sister still around in the 19th century?
In another article, Stanley Wells describes the John Hall-killed-Shakespeare idea as "ridiculous" but seems to think having some of Shakespeare's DNA on hand would be valuable (I'm hoping he'll post to a Shakespeare mailing list I'm on and clarify his position).
I wonder if this is also somehow tied into authorship. When I first read about plans for an exhumation, I thought, "This will never happen in a million years." I wonder whether people's indignation will be overcome by curiosity. I personally think it would be cool if the skull turned out to be intact and we got a facial reconstruction. But is that an honest reason to conduct an exhumation? It'll be interesting to see how it plays out. Maybe we'll get a chance to see Shakespeare's curse in action, eh? 
Dave |
Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 3126
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 05, 2005 - 11:32 am: |
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Dave,
thats way out there isn't it?
even by my own low standards
Jenni
"Things are getting strange, I'm starting to worry, This could be a case for Mulder and Scully"
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David O'Flaherty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 1101
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 05, 2005 - 12:12 pm: |
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Hi Jenni,
Yeah, there's a lot of resentment about this. Yesterday I read that the vicar had said, "No, I don't think so." There's some speculation that the grave is probably empty anyway, that the remains have long since traveled down the Avon and washed out to sea. I also see that the fellow who's proposed the exhumation, forensics expert James Starrs of George Washington University, is a familiar face on television. If it's correct that Starrs is searching for descendants who don't appear to exist, hasn't even approached the vicar for permission to exhume the body, and hasn't even determined that there's a body to exhume, it seems like he hasn't really done his homework, so I wonder what his interest is. I would be interesting to know if Starrs has made a public statement expressing his intention to exhume Shakespeare, or if he just mentioned that an exhumation would be interesting, perhaps in passing during some sort of interview and it's all been blown out of proportion. I have only seen the reaction but not Starr's initial statement.
Your low standards? From what I've heard about your recent article, your standards are in fine shape!
Dave |
David O'Flaherty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 1102
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 05, 2005 - 12:43 pm: |
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By the way, another archaeological dig/exhumation quietly took place in Poland a couple of months ago--scientists figure they have located the remains of Copernicus. The facial reconstruction looks a bit like the actor James Cromwell.
Dave |
R.J. Palmer
Chief Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 746
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 05, 2005 - 1:33 pm: |
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Dave-- You might know this, but quite a few years ago an American broadway critic named Calvin Hoffman convinced the local authorities to dig up the Walsingham Family tomb at St.Nicholas' Church at Chislehurst. He was convinced that Walsingham's tomb would contain documents proving that Christopher Marlowe survived and penned Shakespeare's plays. WHen they removed the floor, they found that the graves had been pulverized by the weight of later entombments and there was nothing left.
When I visited Oxford 10 or 12 years ago, I was very surprised to see a graveyard had been reclaimed for use by the University when they needed to expand one of the colleges. A bloke told me they called in someone from the C of E who conducted a ceremony, afterwhich they brought in the bulldozers and made quick work of it. They even used some of the headstones to build a sidewalk. I guess one has limited choice when living on an island(!) |
David O'Flaherty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 1103
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 05, 2005 - 2:39 pm: |
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Hi R.J.
Yeah, I suppose real estate is at a premium in Britain. I guess money has a way of overcoming any qualms.
I think it's awfully interesting when the practical and sentimental collide. If you think about it, these kind of sanctioned exhumations and routine postmortems haven't been with us that long; it was only during the 1830s and 1840s that dissection was even advocated as a routine feature of inquests, and they didn't become routine until the 20th century. Before the 1840s, they just weren't being performed that often. At the time, people associated those kinds of procedures with hanged criminals and workhouse paupers (the anatomists' legal source). You can imagine the upset feelings when granddad suddenly died and the coroner turned up wanting to take him away so a surgeon could open his body. I wonder if that sort of prejudice hasn't lingered in our collective subconscious, if there is such a thing.
I didn't know that about the Walsinghams, I'm kind of surprised that the local authorities agreed to open the tomb on those kind of grounds. What were they expecting find, a copy of "Romeo and Juliet by Christopher Marlowe?"
(Message edited by oberlin on November 05, 2005) |
R.J. Palmer
Chief Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 748
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 05, 2005 - 2:59 pm: |
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Dave--Pretty much, yes. Hoffman's theory was that Marlowe (who was about to be quizzed on his alleged atheism by the Star Chamber) faked his death at Depford to avoid imprisonment. He then escaped to Italy where he penned "Romeo and Juliet" and those other plays set in northern Italy.
A few years ago they exhumed Zachary Taylor in order to test a theory that he was poisoned. Quite an interesting documentary on it on one of the history channels. The tests came up "negative" RP
(Message edited by rjpalmer on November 05, 2005) |
David O'Flaherty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 1104
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 05, 2005 - 3:33 pm: |
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Hi R.J.
My Marlowe theory is that he had the same literary agent as Patience Worth
I have heard that they exhumed Zachary Taylor but I haven't seen that documentary, which sounds really interesting. I believe there was a lot of debate over Taylor's cause of death. Just a few months ago they conducted an exhumation in Suffolk on the sister of one of the Jamestown founders, Benjamin Gosnold. They thought they had found Gosnold's grave and wanted to procure some DNA from his sister to confirm it. I don't know what the results were.
Dave |
Phil Hill
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Phil
Post Number: 1006
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, November 06, 2005 - 3:00 am: |
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Stratford church, where Shakespeare is buried is very close to the River Avon. Given that the river has flooded many times since Shakespeare's death and burial it is quite possible that nothing now survives of his body. The memorial bust is high on the chancel wall, but the tomb was under the flagstones - so there might be nothing to exhume.
In the UK there are strict rules about the reclamation of cemeteries and burial grounds. A period of something like 75 years after the last interment has to be allowed to ensure that no immediate descendents are alive when the graves are exhumed. All bodies are then reburied on consecrated ground.
As relatives (widows or widowers in particular)of people buried in the cemeteries of churches long since demolished may have a right to be buried beside parents or spouses, the 75 odd year-count may begin quite late. In very ancient towns in England, like my home town, I know of Victorian graveyards which remain sealed off but where I recall elderly people being buried in my childhood. It will be a long time before they are touched.
Phil |
David O'Flaherty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 1113
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 11:27 am: |
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Hi Phil,
I've recently read on the SHAKSPER list that workers building an adjoining vault once accidentally breached Shakespeare's grave, and when they looked inside, there was nothing but dust. It would appear that everything disintegrated or washed away. |
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