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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1409
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 11, 2004 - 4:21 am: | 
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Folks
Armistice Day today.
A day to remember and express gratituted to the fallen millions around the world.
So why ?..
.... http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=132683&command=displayContent&sourceNode=132377&contentPK=11269487
You can help by..
......http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/battlefieldletter
The choice, as ever, is yours.
Thanks for your time.
Monty
Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice
Check out my new weapon, weapon of choice- Jack the Ripper
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 1256
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 11, 2004 - 5:34 am: |
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Monty,
thanks for the links, totally shocking.
as you say today is a day for remembering,
Cheers
Jenni |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1079
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 11, 2004 - 12:44 pm: |
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Hi Monty
Thank you so much for letting us know of this situation. I will be glad to send a letter to the French mayor who is letting the graves of the British soldiers be desecrated by turning the area into a rubbish dump. Although I am not a resident of Leicester, I am a military historian and a concerned Briton, so I hope my voice will help.
All my best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 535
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 11, 2004 - 1:35 pm: |
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I hope you don't have to be British to care about those poor fellows being churned up. I know the US was watching from the side in 1915, but I sent a letter too. My email keeps bouncing back, but I'll send one off via snail mail if I can't get it to go through.
Thanks for posting that, Monty. I hope they'll show that battlefield proper respect. Of course letters from America may not mean much just now, but whatever our individual attitudes towards the war in Iraq might be, I believe all of us in the States have reason to take particular notice of our British allies, past and present.
Best,
Dave |
Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 301
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 11, 2004 - 2:03 pm: |
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Monty,
It's Veterans Day over here and likewise a time for remembering those who served -- too many of whom made the ultimate sacrifice. I shall certainly write a letter, though perhaps we should also include a copy in German, a language that dolt of a mayor might well have to be speaking if we Anglophones (Brits, Canadians, Aussies, South Africans, New Zealanders and Americans) hadn't saved their bacon in WWI & II.
I had an uncle based in Leicestershire with the 82nd Airborne prior to D-Day, so perhaps I feel a bit more personally aggreived despite being in the States.
Don. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3418
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 11, 2004 - 2:41 pm: |
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Hi Monty
Outrageous situation. But the first world war has always been the "Cinderella " of the two world wars. Partly that's because it's more distant in time, partly it's because - sorry to be cynical - it happened before the heyday of cinema.
Robert |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 1495
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 11, 2004 - 3:50 pm: |
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Robert
Ok there are a lot of points here but today of all days we MUST remember all who died
suzi |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 536
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 11, 2004 - 3:52 pm: |
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Hi, Robert
I also think the world might feel guilty about the Lost Generation in particular, since I think the general consensus is that they died in vain (considering what the politicians did afterwards). I wonder if some of the writers and poets who died in that war might be sharing a rueful grin over what's happening with the battlefield of Loos and thinking somewhat sarcastically to each other, "What a fitting metaphor".
I'm not a pacifist myself, but since I was seventeen one of my favorite writers of all time has been Vera Brittain, who wrote a WWI memoir called Testament of Youth--I don't know if you're familiar with her (in the States she's obscure), but Brittain was an English VAD nurse during the war who lost just about every man she knew to the fighting. So it's not surprising she became a confirmed pacifist and anti-war activist for the rest of her long life. In her war diary for 1915, she preserves a poem by her fiance, an aspiring poet named Roland Leighton (7th Worcesters, who was killed by a sniper Dec. 23, 1915). Earlier in the year, Leighton had sent Brittain some violets from Ploegsteert Wood so I'm sure she was horrified by this poem.
Violets
Violets from Plug Street Wood,
Sweet, I send you oversea.
(It is strange they should be blue,
Blue, when his soaked blood was red,
For they grew around his head;
It is strange they should be blue.)
Violets from Plug Street Wood,
Think what they have meant to me--
Life and Hope and Love and You--
(And you did not see them grow
Where his mangled body lay,
Hiding horror from the day;
Sweetest, it was better so.)
Violets from oversea,
To your dear, far, forgetting land
These I send in memory,
Knowing You will understand.
I guess Leighton was no Rupert Brooke, but his poem gives me the shudders. I think outside of a concentration camp, the worst place I could think to find myself in during the 20th Century would be inside a trench in France during WWI. Anyway, I highly recommend Vera Brittain's book to anyone with an interest in WWI.
Dave |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3422
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 11, 2004 - 5:03 pm: |
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Hi Dave
Who knows what Leighton might have become had he survived?
i think the one who really does it for me is Wilfred Owen. Then of course there's Siegried Sassoon and others.
i think someone once commented that the reason World War I seemed to throw up better poets than World war II did, was because of the static nature of the warfare - long periods of sitting bored in a trench, miserable, as opposed to being on the move, miserable. But you're right, World War I was just about as close as you can get to hell.
A while ago, there was a programme by Irish writer Tom Paulin on World war Ii poets. He mentioned a poet I wasn't familiar with, name of Keith Douglas. From what i heard of his work, I was very impressed.
i'm not familiar with Vera Brittain, though i should be, because "Testament of Youth" was done as a BBC series a few years ago. I believe her daughter was Shirley Williams - a former Labour cabinet minister. She married Bernard Williams the philosopher.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3423
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 11, 2004 - 5:08 pm: |
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By the way, Dave, i was browsing at a book sale a few years ago, and I found a book containing the best entries from the armed forces poetry competition (WW2). There was some good stuff in there, and it wasn't all officers, either, which was nice.
Robert |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 537
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 11, 2004 - 5:43 pm: |
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Hi, Robert
Yep, Brittain's daughter became a Labour MP, although I don't know anything about her career. I think she's Baroness Williams now. It was Masterpiece Theatre who did the adaptation of Testament of Youth (way back around 1980, I think). I never have seen it but would like to. Brittain went on to write other books too, and did another memoir for WWII, Testament of Experience. Brittain became very unpopular for criticizing the Allies' area bombing of Germany (which specifically targeted civilians) during the war. At the same time, her writings also put her on Hitler's arrest list should Great Britain have fallen. Well, I'll stop about Vera Brittain--it's just that I always think of her on Veteran's Day since it's marked on Armistice Day.
I'll have to check out Keith Douglas, I don't know him. I also didn't know they had a poetry competition for the WWII armed forces. I always associate war poetry with WWI too (Owens and Sassoon like you say).
Cheers,
Dave
(Message edited by oberlin on November 11, 2004) |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 492
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 11, 2004 - 8:01 pm: |
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I have a book by William Allison and John Fairley called THE MONICLED MUTINEER (London: Quartet Books Ltd., 1979, 1986). It discusses the controvertial career of Percy Toplis, who led a mutiny at the British army camp at Etaples, France in 1917, that was concealed from the public for decades. Toplis was involved in black marketing after the war, and was accused of a murder. Conveniently, before he could be tried, he was killed "fighting the police". That was in 1920. Apparently a television series was made of this book. Also there seems to have been a reevaluation on Toplis's reputation.
In the book, getting away from Toplis, is a quote by a dying soldier, the poet Leslie Coulson. The poem was called "But a short time to live."
Our little hour - how short a time
To wage our wars, to fan our fates,
To take our fill of armoured crimes,
To troop our banner, storm the gates.
Blood on the sword, our eyes blood red,
Blind in our puny reign of power,
Do we forget how soon is sped
Our little hour.
It is on page 126 of the book.
Interestingly nobody is quoting Rupert Brooke, Alan Seegar, or Joyce Kilmer here. But in the case of Kilmer I only know "Trees" (hardly a favorite of mine.
Best wishes, and may the veterans of all wars eventually see universal peace.
Jeff |
Lindsey Millar
Sergeant
Username: Lindsey
Post Number: 47
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 11, 2004 - 10:26 pm: |
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Monty,
Am making my voice known (I hope!) via e-mail.
My great uncle lost his life during the Great War, and is buried in France..
Thanks for bringing this to our attention.
Bestest,
Lyn |
Lindsey Millar
Sergeant
Username: Lindsey
Post Number: 48
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 11, 2004 - 11:18 pm: |
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Guys,
Might I also add that my dad also took part in D-Day. He was drunk as a skunk; as he says, "it was the only way I knew how to deal with it, it was such a terror". I am chilled to the bone by the letter he sent to my grandparents, no stamp, no mention of where it was sent from.. just a mention of how he wished his estate to be taken care of.
My dad is now an 82 year old chaplain for the British Legion, who is performing funerals for Veterans by the day.
God bless our Veterans.
And I'm so sorry I voted for Bush. I was blinded. Truly sorry, folks! It took Monty's post for me to see that! Forgive me, please!
Bestest, truly,
Lyn |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1413
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 12, 2004 - 5:17 am: |
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Guys,
Many many thanks for the support.
I would like to mention that I brought this subject up because
a) The impact of this battle is still being felt today.
b) This isnt just about the Brits that died. Its about all nations all over. Not us or the French either but German, American, Belgium, Australian and all other nationalities I have failed to mention. Its about the ultimate sacrifce. A sacrifce for those who mattered.
I read somewhere a soldiers view.
"It wasnt about us beating the Germans. It wasnt about the pride of our nation or some sort of crusade against evil, well not for me anyway. It was about two things. My family who I loved dearly and my comrades who were unfortunate enough to be along side of me. I fought hard so I could live to see one and fought even harder so I could survive to see the other. This becuase neither had failed me like my country had."
Thanks again.
Monty
PS Don, was your Uncle based near Quorn (aka Quorndon) by any chance?
Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice
Check out my new weapon, weapon of choice- Jack the Ripper
|
Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 1260
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 12, 2004 - 5:23 am: |
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Monty,
no thank you for bringing it to our attention
Jenni |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1082
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 12, 2004 - 11:21 am: |
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Hi David
Keith Douglas fought in Africa but ultimately was killed in France. Following is one of his most powerful poems written while in the desert so pertinent right now as we think of the fighting going on in Falluja. I believe the title "Vergissmeinnicht" means "Forget me not" in German.
All the best
Chris
**************
'Vergissmeinnicht'
Three weeks gone and the combatants gone
returning over the nightmare ground
we found the place again, and found
the soldier sprawling in the sun.
The frowning barrel of his gun
overshadowing. As we came on
that day, he hit my tank with one
like the entry of a demon.
Look. Here in the gunpit spoil
the dishonoured picture of his girl
who has put: Steffi. Vergissmeinnicht
in a copybook gothic script.
We see him almost with content,
abased, and seeming to have paid
and mocked at by his own equipment
that's hard and good when he's decayed.
But she would weep to see today
how on his skin the swart flies move;
the dust upon the paper eye
and the burst stomach like a cave.
For here the lover and killer are mingled
who had one body and one heart.
And death who had the soldier singled
has done the lover mortal hurt.
Keith Douglas
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3427
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 12, 2004 - 11:38 am: |
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Hi Chris
Thanks for posting that. Yes, I remember this was one of the poems singled out by Paulin in the TV programme.
Robert |
Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 302
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 12, 2004 - 8:17 pm: |
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Monty,
I really don't know. He was, in fact, my step-uncle (though the only member of my stepfather's family worth a polished farthing). He was truly one of the good people, but died relatively young without issue and I doubt anyone else would know.
But about 10 years ago I discovered the daughter of Gen. James Gavin (commander of the 82nd and one of those rare generals truly loved by all his men) was living in our town and got in touch with her to tell her how much respect "Uncle Eddie" had for her dad. We had several conversations and I do recall her saying the 82nd had been in Leicestershire prior to the invasion.
You are right, though, there were an awful lot of "Uncle Eddies" on all sides. Young kids right out of high school and suddenly thrust into a fiery cauldron that would decide the fate of the world. He was certainly the least likely paratrooper -- soft-spoken, slight and maybe 125 lbs. soaking wet. He fought at Normandy, Operation Market Garden and finally the Bulge. Wounded three times and the last time left for dead until someone said "I think this one's still breathing."
He wasn't 20 when he got back and had already seen more hell than most of us will in a lifetime. That may be why, after he got out of college, he entered the diplomatic corps. And, as I said, what the war couldn't do leukemia did at much too early an age.
Sadly, I would think we all have stories like this.
Don.
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David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 544
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 1:08 pm: |
|
I just had a nice email from the editor of the Leicester Mercury and he told me they had received 1,300 letters so far.
Dave |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3443
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 1:58 pm: |
|
That's good news, Dave. Hopefully something will come of it.
Robert |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1129
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 14, 2004 - 1:51 pm: |
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Hi,
Just to add my personal message for armistice day,I always make a point of watching the BBC, broadcast I find it so moving, not only for the heads of state, and our dear queen who always seems to be visably moved, but also the thousands of ex soldiers of both sexes that march pass, to pay their respect to not just the unknown soldier, but to the memories of their fallen comrades, and it reminds us all of just how futile war is for everyone concerned,
I lost[ although not born till early 1947] two uncles one a Japanese pow, who along with thousands of others lost their lives through desease in Burma.
Also another who was a rear gunner on a lancaster bomber that was lost in action.
My Father served in the royal navy, and was engaged in the first naval battle of the war'The River plate' he was on board the 'Ajax' and he proberly only survived that skirmish because of the decision to skuttle the German pocket Battle ship 'The Graf S'.
I am a softy by nature, even though the subject of 'Jack' fascinates me, and the day of rememberence, has a nostalgia feeling for me, and hopefully will always do so.
Regards Richard. |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1417
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 15, 2004 - 4:27 am: |
|
Don, Dave O,
Don,
The reason I ask is because I vaguely remember reading that the 82nd spent some time in Quorn, a village just down the road from me (infact passed through it on Saturday and thought of your story on the way to the Loughbough fair). I know Americans were based all over the county. When I was a lad and in the scouts we camped at Beaumanor Hall in near Woodhouse Eves (again, only a mile or so from Quorn). The hall was a base for many soldiers from all over. I remember mucking around in the wooden huts and lockers and finding quite a few saucey pictures. Must have been American billets I found eh????!!!!!
Dave,
On Friday the Leicester Mercury wrote a letter to Mr Chirac.
We await the reply with great interest.
Again, thanks to all for your support.
Monty
Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice
Check out my new weapon, weapon of choice- Jack the Ripper
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3461
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 15, 2004 - 1:15 pm: |
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Hi Monty
I did (naively) send an email to the "Daily Mail" about this scandal, but they wrote back to say that they couldn't find the space to publish it.
Robert |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1420
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 4:07 am: |
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Folks
A victory for respect !
http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=132697&command=displayContent&sourceNode=132405&home=yes&contentPK=11313765
Thanks to you all !!
Monty
PS Robert...Daily Mail.....say no more !
Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice
Check out my new weapon, weapon of choice- Jack the Ripper
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3467
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 4:43 am: |
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That's great news, Monty!
Robert |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1422
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 6:19 am: |
|
Robert,
Too right.
Guys, how does it feel to know that your actions made a difference in this world?
Monty
Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice
Check out my new weapon, weapon of choice- Jack the Ripper
|
Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 1270
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 6:26 am: |
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Monty,
thank you very much for drawing my attention to it. How i missed it on the front of the paper i don't know!!
Hurrah!!
Jenni |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1236
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 12:02 pm: |
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Yes , really splendid news Monty
Natalie |
Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 303
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 12:32 pm: |
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Monty,
Great news and again thanks for alerting us all.
Don. |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1090
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 1:06 pm: |
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Hi Monty
Excellent news that our concern over this impending tragedy, the threatened desecration of war graves in Loos, France, has done some good, and plans for the proposed trash dump have been shelved. 
Thanks for bringing this to our attention, Monty.
All my best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
|
Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 3176
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 4:35 am: |
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Hi everyone,
just wanted to say something as its Armistice Day today. i don't really know what, but ,
Jenni
"You know I'm not gonna diss you on the Internet
Cause my mamma taught me better than that."
|
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 887
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 5:24 am: |
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Absolutely, Jenni. Well done for bringing back this thread. I shall be there at 11am... doing nothing except standing or sitting still.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1688
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 6:03 am: |
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Earthworm Dampness
Late afternoon rain draws a musty smell
from the earth after another hot day;
a backhoe moves earth, uproots trees;
a mulcher whines; a hardhat feeds
limbs into the whirling blades.
They’re clearing land for more
graves at Arlington Cemetery, to add
to the quarter million that wave
already with stars and stripes
on the manicured lawns sloping
down to the muddy Potomac.
Christopher T. George
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
http://christophertgeorge.blogspot.com/
|
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1529
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 4:15 pm: |
|
Hi
Just heard the recollections of 109 year old Henry the oldest world war one survivor in the UK,
What a inspiration.
His descriptions of trench warfare and the horrendous conditions that our troops faced were a reminder that war is such a waste of life.
My thoughts were with the fallen today, and having lost a grandfather in the Somme it personally hits home.
Richard. |
Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 829
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 4:53 pm: |
|
It is Veterans Day here in the states, honoring our veterans from every war. Thanks to all of you, especially any veterans on the boards.
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 241
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 5:29 pm: |
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Wars of necessity seem to be a thing of the past. Those who have come before have helped to stem injustice and have fought and died to preserve human rights and dignity. It is they I salute. Those of the Gulf Wars, innocent pawns many, I pity.
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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