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Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 90
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 5:32 pm: | 
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Hi all
We do know that he had a bunch of Lindbergh kidnapping money and that he was not Hauptmann.
J. J. Faulkner has joined the ranks of R. M. Qualtrough, H. B. Richmond, J. Hartigan and Mr. Kipper as great mystery men of crime.
I see that Court TV is doing a show about the kidnap/murder on Wednesday and I, for one, will be surprised if he even gets a mention. At any rate, that seems to be the pattern of such programs.
Goodies,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 630
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 6:44 pm: |
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Hi Stan,
I don't know of Faulkner, Richmond, or Kipper, but I am glad you have resurrected that merry murderous maniac J. Hartigan. All I can say is,
"Hooray, hooray, hooray!!"
Who did poison the Lieutenant?
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 91
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 7:21 pm: |
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Hi Jeff
Hooray, hooray indeed! As the old boy said, "It is a mystery they will never solve."
"H. B. Richmond" was the guy who, in letters to authorities, claimed responsibility for a series of two unsolved child murders in New York City during 1915. "Richmond" gave notice of the second murder before it happened. He also added Jack the Ripper to the end of his signature.
"Mr. Kipper" was the chap who made an appointment to be shown a house by British estate agent Suzy Lamplugh in 1986. Ms. Lamplugh has not been seen since and has been declared legally dead.
Stan
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 631
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 9:27 pm: |
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I can only think of one other party who fits this catagory: Mr. "Harry Vaughan", salesman extroadinary who went about Europe planning a new shipping line in 1882, then "accidentally" shot a lawyer in Brussels named Guillaume Bernays. He wrote an apologetic note to the police about how the killing was accidental. For months the police sought Vaughan, following his elaborate trail. Then they rethought the entire matter and concentrated on the enemies of Bernays. They eventually found that Armand Pelzer, who loved the wife of Bernays, had a brother named Leon whose whereabouts at the time the mysterious Vaughan had been about matched. In the end they proved Leon had been Vaughan, and they convicted him and Armand for Bernays murder.
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 92
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 10:25 am: |
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Hi Jeff
I remember reading about "The Man Who Never Was Case" some time ago but I'd forgotten the details. That's pretty complicated. I'm surprised they solved it.
Maybe we could also add the enigmatic "Alice" from Camden Town as a mystery woman of murder. The other question there would have to be, was "she" really a woman?
Stan |
Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 93
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 12:54 pm: |
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P.S.
Of course, you could also ask if Kipper, Qualtrough, Richmond and Hartigan might actually have been women.
Faulkner is unique in this group because he was actually seen in his assumed incarnation. He walked into the bank, exchanged thousands of dollars in gold notes for new money and walked out. It was only after he left that it was realized the cash was Lindbergh ransom money. Clerks had not paid much attention to him while he was there so they weren't able to give a good description but they did remember enough to say that he definitely wasn't Hauptmann.
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 632
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 9:50 pm: |
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Hi Stan,
Maybe Faulkner was the mysterious Isidor Fisch. I could believe Hauptmann had an accomplice or two. Most of that money was never accounted for.
In THE RIPPEROLOGIST about a year and a half back I did an article, WHAT WAINWRIGHT WROUGHT, dealing with Henry Wainwright's murder of Harriet Lane in 1874 (in Whitechapel). In the article I made an effort to trace several cases (including the Pelzers) where attempts were made to create "straw man" fake people. Wainwright did the same, trying to make it look like Harriet ran off with another man. It did not work out in the long run, but for nearly a year most people bought that lie.
I am also convinced that there are other cases with similar "straw men" situations where some inconvenient person dies and the death is covered up by rumors spread by the killer that the victim has run off somewhere with the "straw man". The Crippen Case had an element of this in the doctor's plotting (he said Belle had fled to California with a lover). Earlier Samuel Dougal claimed that Camille Holland had left Moat Farm for a yachting trip. Those two crimes were exposed in the end for other reasons, but I am sure many others were more successfully carried out.
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 97
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 1:10 pm: |
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Hi Jeff
Yes, that "straw man" scam is a trick that has been tried in several cases. Perhaps successfully in the case of Jean Milne. Here not to cover the murder but to throw the police of the track and give the actual killer time to get away.
Regarding Fisch, I think he was out of the country and maybe even dead when Faulkner popped in but I would have to investigate further to say for sure.
I also tend to agree that Hauptmann was involved in some way but I don't believe they proved it beyond a reasonable doubt.
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 634
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 8:03 pm: |
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Hi Stan,
I think he was definitely involved, but the problem with the case of the people v. Bruno Hauptmann is the crazy degree of overkill to get him. If it had been anyone else's infant kid, public feeling would have been hostile towards the malefactor, but it was Lindbergh's and the public really wanted blood. Under more "normal" situations a few cops might have listened to Hauptmann a little more and might have looked closer at others (Whately the butler, for instance, and that unfortunate maid who killed herself). But it was a three year investigation, the suspect was an illegal alien and (ironically - given Lindbergh's later pro-Nazi feelings) a German in a period when anti-German feelings were still high. Hauptmann probably was involved in the planning and actual physical kidnapping (he had used threats to kids in robberies he committed in Germany), but he had
to have accomplices.
By the way, when reading the comments about the 1915 New York Ripper case, an idea crossed my mind about a possible suspect, but I will put it on the correct thread.
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 102
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 11:33 pm: |
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Hi Jeff,
Yes, they really put the frame on Hauptmann whether he did it or not.
Have you seen the film "Crime of the Century"? It's much better than the made for TV version, although, it wasn't too bad either.
Do you remember the book that came out a few years ago that put the blame on Lindbergh himself? I don't recall what its name was.
Stan |
Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 103
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 11:39 pm: |
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P.S.
I'll be checking out the show on Court TV tonight.
I live in Illinois. Do you live in America Jeff? |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 639
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 8:29 pm: |
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Hi Stan,
I live in New York City.
The book about Lindbergh that came out (by a man whose last name was Behn) suggested the baby was killed by Anne Morrow Lindbergh's sister. I think that is stretching things a bit.
The curious thing about the mystery of the Lindbergh-Hauptmann Case is how historical perspective poisoned it from the start to now. In the middle 1930s Hauptmann's sole guilt (or guilt at all) was nearly universally accepted.
He was an illegal alien from Germany (still suspect as our most recent foe at war in 1917-18, and loathed for atrocities in the war, such as the Lusitania or shooting Edith Cavell). He was not a good looking person (certainly Col. Lindbergh was far more photogenic than Bruno, who had beady eyes and a plain, long face). And we all were upset that our national heroic symbol was attacked in such a horrible way - his son kidnapped and murdered. That the kidnapping was a business crime - Lindbergh was to pay a ransom for the baby's return (supposed return) escapes most commentators of the period. Even the normally sensible Edmund Pearson made a crack-brained comment that Hauptmann's killing (or supposed killing) of the baby was due to his hating Lindbergh while he revered Manfred von Richtofen!
But after 1937 it all changes. Lindbergh reveals, more openly, his admiration of the Nazis, and becomes the spokesperson for the American First movement. After that it is his reputation (except for what he achieved for aviation) that suffers, and more and more critics of Hauptmann's trial come forth. There has never been a perfect balance between these two extremes.
On the other hand I have never quite bought the view of Bruno being an innocent lamb. I will say he was involved with others and leave it at that - his misfortune was he was the one who got caught.
His wife Anna died about six or seven years back, and I have seen his son (who looks very much like him) on television.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 107
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 12:48 am: |
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Hi Jeff,
Yes, I remember when Anna died and Mrs. Lindbergh only went a couple of years ago.
Well, that TV program sure put Hauptmann squarely in the dock. I recorded it on DVD and think I'll go watch it again now in case I missed something. The evidence seemed to be stronger than I'd been led to believe.
Have you read the book about the Robert Greenlease kidnapping? It's very interesting and there are many similarities including a dead child, missing ransom money that was never recovered and the final chapter being played out in the death chamber. There are even rumored connections to organized crime. I remember this case from when I was a child.
Best regards,
Stan |
Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 108
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 12:58 am: |
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P.S.
Since you live in NYC, have you been over to check out the Carrie Brown murder site? The closest I've been was Watkins Glen for the Grand Prix in 1979.
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 641
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 9:08 pm: |
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Hi Stan,
Oddly enough, I never have been that interested in the Carrie Brown Case as I should have been.
I worked in lower Manhattan for years, but never walked to the area that she was killed in, and (although I used the reference library at the City's Municipal Archives) only once did I look at the District Attorney's scrapbooks on microfilm. Sometimes one lets great opportunities slip away too easily.
I do have a crazy theory about Carrie's end. It deals with that rumor about Ripper like murders in New Jersey in 1891, when Carrie died and when George Chapman was in the area. I have found another mutilation murder in the area - but in NYC. But it was not 1891. It was a few years later. And the victim was a man, not a woman.
I have seen that book on Bobbie Greenlease's kidnapping and murder, but I never purchased it. I thumbed through it. There were suggestions that the police may have stolen some of the ransom money. And the father of Bobbie was suspected of having underworld connections.
Oddly enough, another kidnapping/murder - of Marion Parker by William Hickman in Los Angeles in 1928 - also had rumors of police corruption involved. There may have been pieces of information that could have saved Marion the Detectives purposely overlooked, because of the chances of a large reward being offered.
The evidence against Bruno is strong. Far stronger than his supporters want to admit. But they leave large holes in the story, especially regarding what happened the night of the kidnapping (how the staff at the Englewood house was so oblivious to any noises from outside or upstairs). The evidence puts Bruno at or near the center of the crime - but it also suggests he had one or more accomplices. That is what is wrong about the case.
I have frequently thought of Charles Lindbergh and his family. When his grandson made that special solo flight from New York to Paris on the 75th Anniversary of the flight of the SPIRIT OF ST. LOUIS, I realized that had Charles Jr. not died in 1932 he would have still been alive to see his nephew's flight. I wonder what he would have been like. An isolationist like his Dad, or more like the aviator adventurer who flew into history in 1927? And do his family ever wonder about him too?
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 110
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 11:51 pm: |
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Hi Jeff,
Well as I predicted that show didn't even mention Faulkner. My girlfriend called when it was on so I had to review it to make sure. I'm even more convinced of Hauptmann's guilt now but I still think he had help. I don't believe he was a stupid man and he looked like a pretty cool customer when he was on the witness stand but I don't see him as having the cunning to pull off a crime of this magnitude alone and almost get away with it.
That book on Greenlease left the impression that the Mafia tricked the kidnappers out of most of the ransom money. I think that's how it ended up anyway.
I remember seeing some of the horrible pictures from the Hickman case. It has to be one of the most shocking crimes ever. If I recall correctly, Hickman was either lynched or barely escaped same.
The kidnap case I'd say I'm most interested in is Charles Mattson. I guess because his murder is unsolved and with the witnesses it always looked to me like it should have been solvable.
Regarding Brown and Chapman, even though he was a poisoner, there always seemed to be mutilation murders wherever he went. I always wondered a little about that.
Best regards,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 642
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 8:14 pm: |
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Hi Stan,
I am not familiar with the Mattson Case. Please fill me in on the details.
I happen to luck out about a decade ago, when my agency worked in lower Manhattan. There were several book stores within a five block walking distance (true heaven to me), and one specialized on fantasy, science fiction, and detective stories. But sometimes it had used books. I came across (for under $2.00 incredibly) a nineteenth century book about the kidnapping and unresolved fate of Charlie Ross. It is in my crime library right now. It has a section on some of the boys who were produced over the years to Christian Ross as his missing son.
From what I recall, Hickman mutilated Marion's body by cutting off her legs and sewing back her eyes to look wide open when the car she was left in was seen by her father - so that the father would believe Marion was still alive. Hickman did not get lynched (though he should have been).
He did end up hanged in San Quentin. [The two kidnappers who were lynched in California were Thurmond and Holmes, the fellows who kidnapped and shot Brooke Hart in San Jose in 1933. There is a good book on that case, SWIFT JUSTICE by Harry Farrell, who also did a splendid book about the Burton Abbott Case of 1957, A SHALLOW GRAVE IN TRINITY COUNTY.
I don't know if Chapman ever mutilated a corpse or stabbed anyone, but one point about him keeps being overlooked by everyone who rejects him as a Ripper suspect. Supposedly, the theory is, if you are a secret poisoner type you are not likely to use any other means of violence (so George/Severin could not cut up prostitutes and then poison paramours). But when he was arrested in 1902, the account of the arrest in the memoirs of Scotland Yard detective Arthur Neil (my American edition is called MANHUNTER OF SCOTLAND YARD) points out that he was planning to flee. The police were watching him for several days, and knew his intentions. They also knew that he owned and could use a pistol.
Granted it is not a carving knife or a surgical knife, but if Chapman was able to use a gun, it means he was capable of killing someone with one.
If that is the case, he was also capable of killing somebody with a knife. This doesn't make him the Ripper, but to me it throws out the theory that his M.O. is one that can't be changed at all.
It's funny about Hauptmann and possible associates. If you remember Agatha Christie's use of the Lindbergh case in MURDER ON THE ORIENT EXPRESS, she mentions that there was an execution of the fellow who actually did the physical kidnapping of the baby girl who is killed, but that he never revealed the person who planned it because of fear of retaliation (which doesn't make sense, as he was about to be executed anyway). Even Ms Christie felt Hauptmann did not act alone.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 113
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 9:13 pm: |
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Hi Jeff,
I guess they could have threatened to harm Hauptmann's family to keep him quiet but who knows.
A few years ago, I read a book about Ross and remember that there were a lot of imposters who kept turning up for literally decades. Burton Abbott doesn't ring a bell with me right now.
You've pretty much got Parker's mutilations right as best I recall. I did know about those other guys being lynched; guess I expected Hickman might have gotten the same because of the nature of the crime.
As for the Charles Mattson case, he was the ten-year-old son of a Tacoma doctor. On December 27, 1937 he was taken from his home while his parents were out. A single man with a gun invaded the residence and abducted him while his brother, sister and a family friend looked on. The culprit left a ransom note demanding $28,000 for Charles' safe return but failed to give any further instructions. His parent's expected future contacts but none were forthcoming. The witnesses provided a description and a police sketch was circulated but without result. On the following January 11, Mattson's remains were found by a road about 60 miles north of Tacoma. All indications were that he was killed within days of the kidnapping. The criminal was never captured or identified. It was assumed that the perpetrator began to fear that he might get caught picking up the money and murdered the boy to end the affair with one less witness.
Regards,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 646
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 1:46 pm: |
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Hi Stan,
Sorry, but I have been a little busy the last few days.
The Burton Abbott Case took place on April 28, 1955 when a young girl, Stephanie Bryan, was kidnapped when she was headed home by a short cut after school in Berkeley, California. For three months nothing panned out, and awards over $2,500.00 were offered. Stephanie's French textbook was found in a field, but that was it. Then, by accident, evidence was found that led to the arrest of Abbott. His wife was cleaning out boxes of old clothes and came across a handbag that had papers, photographs, and an unfinished letter from Stephanie. She showed these to an acquaintance who brought it to the police attention. The possession of the bag could not be explained away. Abbott did produce an alibi, but it turned out to be a bad one. He claimed he went hunting up at Alameda in Coweta County. Unfortunately Stephanie's remains were found nearby. The trial began on November 7, 1955 and ended on January 25, 1956 with a verdict of guilty. Because of Abbott's personality and lack of anything against him, and the guileless manner he implicated himself, many felt that he might not have been guilty. But Farrell goes into great detail, and while he finds some lingering problems (involving Abbott's uncle and mother) he concludes that Abbott was guilty. He died in the gas chamber on March 15, 1957.
The Mattson Case sounds fascinating, but probably unsolvable at this date. I doubt that even if any useable DNA were found on the surviving evidence. It sounds like the criminal had been studying the Mattson household for some time to plan the snatch and to comprehend that there might be some money in it for him. But the panicking is odd. What could have made the kidnapper think he was in danger (possibly because of all the potential witnesses?).
Odd case this.
By the way, while I was growing up in Queens back in the 1960s, the Alice Crimmins case in Kew Gardens Hills (roughly two miles from my home) occurred. I remember that prior to the arrest of Mrs. Crimmins for the murders of her children (when it was thought to be a child snatching) my mother was extremely insistant on knowing where my sister and I were at all times we were not at school.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 114
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 6:17 pm: |
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Hi Jeff,
Thanks for the information about Burton Abbott. I Googled it and got some stuff but you increased what I found by about ten fold. Did Abbott demand a ransom for Ms. Bryan?
That Alice Crimmins case was a weird one. I wrote a little about it for a book but I never found a publisher.
Probably the the most famous kidnapping case that has ties to my area was the snatching of William Hamm of Hamm's Beer fame. He was taken from St. Paul by the Barker/Karpis Gang in 1933 but the ransom drop was outside of Farmington, IL, about 10 miles west of where I live now. No one died in this case and Alvin "Creepy" Karpis got to go prison where he taught Charles Manson how to play the guitar.
Back to Mattson, Tacoma was kind of a hotbed for kidnapping back in that era. Nine-year-old George Weyerhaeuser had been taken from that same city the previous year. He was released after $200,000 was paid and the criminals got long jail terms.
The assertion in the accounts I've read about Mattson claiming that the culprit killed the boy because he suddenly began to fear that he'd be grabbed when he went to pick up the ransom are curious. Although that's possible, you'd think he'd have realized that danger before he embarked on the crime.
The odd $28,000 ransom demand is a little puzzling as well. Why not $25,000, $30,000 or $50,000 for that matter? Also, why did he leave no plans for the exchange or contact them later to set up same? I'd have to wonder if it really wasn't a "fake" kidnapping, that is, one similar to Leopold and Loeb.
Regards,
Stan
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 649
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 7:52 pm: |
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Hi Stan,
I still feel that, for all the defects in the prosecution's case and presentation, Alice Crimmins was one of the luckiest defendants in New York State criminal history. Yeah she was convicted, but when she got out (fairly early, by the way) her boy-friend (who - supposedly - had Mob connections) was waiting to marry her. I have heard she has a very nice life style right now, although no direct grandchildren.
Probably because she is still around publishers are avoiding a full study of the case. She could still sue for slander.
As I was reading your account of Mattson, I was thinking of a classic 20th Century British mystery: the Gorse Hall Assassination of 1909. About four people (besides the dead man, George Henry Storrs) saw his assailant. The police arrested Cornelius Howard, and he was acquitted despite a feeble alibi. Then they arrested Mark Wilde, and he won because the first arrest and trial put the second man's guilt into question (although he too had a weak argument for his innocence). It is the only crime in British history resulting in two trials of different defendants and no convictions.
The kidnapper left at least three witnesses who might identify him. It might have unsettled him (although, if he was aware of Gorse Hall, he would not have needed to worry). On the other hand the odd amount suggests he was not serious (but then, if he had studied the Mattson family to know when to enter their home for the snatch, he may have been aware of how much they could afford). Perhaps he spent so much time preparing step one (snatch the victim) that he failed to consider the notes or the plans of exchange. Of course there is also a continuing posibility that he wanted to kill the kid from the start - for either kicks or revenge. Yes, it is a good puzzle.
Abbott did not make a ramsom demand. It would have simplified matters if he had. It looks like a sex violation murder kidnapping. Farrell's research into the case was wonderful - he found there was an eyewitness to the kidnapping, but one who for personal reasons could not (or would not) testify in court (she was doing something she did not want to reveal in the area the crime occurred at). He also had a creepy discovery: a man driving on the highway saw a car like Abbott's driving up to Coweta County, and the trunk was not totally closed - and there was a small arm that was visible in the trunk.
I read a good book last year, THE CRIME OF THE CENTURY, about Leopold and Loeb. It suggested that there were several other crimes involved including assault (and one castration) that may have been linked to the pair. The author (whose name, I regret, I can't recall) is the first who seriously questioned that Loeb was the evil master of the pair, with Leopold as his puppet. There is more that suggests Leopold was in control far more often than he admitted, and that the death of Loeb helped Leopold throw most of the blame on his dead partner.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 115
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 8:54 pm: |
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Hi Jeff,
Although they were both geniuses, Leopold was certainly the one with the higher I.Q. Of course, that means little regarding which was the dominant party. When I was in grade school, I remember our teacher giving us a her rendition of the crime when Leopold was released from jail and the case was in the news. She also threw in the story about William Heirens for good measure and he's still trying to get out. The movie "Swoon" has some flaws but it, in my view, is the best film based on the Leopold and Loeb case. I always wondered why Leopold got top billing. Maybe because he lived the longest?
As for Gorse Hall, that case has always intrigued me. I put the unknown killer on my World's Ten Most Wanted list for 1900-1909 when I was writing that series of articles for America's Most Wanted News Magazine. I listed the full ten on the thread in Media .. Articles here. The biggest puzzle to me isn't so much who did it but what was the strange grudge he bore against the victim and why didn't Storrs, who must have known what it was, tell anyone? It must have involved something illegal or immoral. Perhaps the guy caught Storrs having an affair with his wife.
Regards,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 650
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 11:39 pm: |
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Hi Stan,
I didn't realize Heirens was still alive. He must be in his seventies or eighties. The only Chicago killer that I was aware of as being dead was Speck, who died back in the 1980s in prison.
There was a "darkly" funny story that was true from the 1970s about Richard Speck. The Texas legislature was getting bogged down by too many private bills that state legislators had been getting passed for no responsible reasons (except for the sake of getting votes for the legislator involved). Finally one of the state senators decided to teach a lesson to the rest of them. He requested a special private bill to have the state senate of Texas honor that prominent advocate of birth control and population control, Mr. Richard Speck of Joliet, Illinois. The bill was quickly voted on, and passed. Then it's proposer told his fellow senators who voted for it who Richard Speck was.
After that there was more care with private bills.
I have seen the pair listed as Loeb and Leopold, but I imagine the order is done for alphabetical effect ("Le" before "Lo"). I have not seen SWOON, but I have seen ROPE and COMPULSION. If you look at the IMPB Board on movies then you can
see some of my reviews, including those two films. I think of those two COMPULSION is the better film (ROPE is stuck with that Hitchcock filming trick he experimented with).
There is a good account about Gorse Hall, THE STABBING OF GEORGE HENRY STORRS by Jonathan Goodman (1983). He looked at the evidence and suggested that either Howard or Wilde could have been the actual killer, but a third possiblity was a foreigner who might have been avenging a younger sister who was a suicide after Storrs got her pregnant (the sister worked in Storrs factory).
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 116
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 7:18 pm: |
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Hi Jeff,
Yes, we're still holding William Heirens. He'll turn 77 in November and will start his seventh decade of incarceration if he is still around about a year from now and, from what I've seen on TV, he's still in pretty good shape.
Heirens is now claiming that police tortured his confession out of him and that he also signed the statement because they assured him that he'd get the death penalty if he didn't. I would not be inclined to doubt these assertions but that doesn't mean he's not guilty either. Dolores Kennedy, who wrote a pretty good book about Wuornos, has become convinced of his innocence and, to no avail so far, has began a campaign to get him released.
As far as Speck is concerned, his trial was in Peoria and, as I was driving by the court house back then, I remember craning my neck to see if I could pick him out in the crowd that was out front. I was never sure if I saw him or not.
He became ill when he was here and my girlfriend's friend at the time was working as a nurse at the hospital where he was admitted. As a joke, some of her coworkers gave her a form to go take care of a patient and when she got on the elevator she looked down at the name and it said Richard Speck!
Speck was born not too far west of here and it's thought that he committed his first murder in that same part of Illinois. He's also been named as a suspect in a number of other murders, most notably, the case where three women vanished from Indiana Dunes State Park shortly before his Chicago rampage. The description of the guy seen with them before they went missing sounded a lot more like Bundy to me though. I wonder if anyone has looked into his whereabouts in 1966. He would have been about 20 years of age at the time.
I haven't seen Goodman's books about the Wallace or Storrs murder cases but I did read the one he wrote about the burning of Evelyn Foster. There's some doubt as to whether that was actually a murder but I tend to think that it was, primarily because I place stock in very detailed death bed testimony. Of course, you also have Ernest Brown's supposed "confession" on the scaffold but that can be argued against on several fronts.
Back to Storrs, it's hard for me to imagine that the witnesses wouldn't have identified the attacker if he was one of the accused. If he was wearing a disguise, I haven't seen that mentioned in any of the accounts I've read.
Regarding the Leopold and Loeb inspired movies, I've also seen "Compulsion" and "Rope". I actually kind of liked the latter including the one scene per reel experiment. It really wasn't much like the actual case though. "Compulsion" was but, if I remember correctly, the names were changed "to protect the innocent" in that film as well. The 2002 movie "Murder by Numbers", although it's set in modern times, is an unmistakable recapitulation of the case; much more so than "Rope".
There was some controversy about "Swoon" when it first came out because some saw a homo-erotic subtext in it. That was of no interest to me but I didn't really see that in the film anyway.
As for IMDb, I'll see if I can find your reviews. I'm currently going though all 3/4 million titles listed trying to make a list of all true-crime films ever made. I think their title page says something like 400,000 titles but that number is way overdue for an update by my count. I "only" have about 130,000 movies left to review. So far, I've found about 345 true-crime productions and about 250 of them are based on actual serial killers. Of that number, I've culled out 28 "serious" JTR movies.
Also on the topic of IMDb, have you seen the Louis Le Prince film made in Leeds, England during October of 1888? You can almost imagine seeing the real JTR in the crowd as he takes a holiday between Eddowes and Kelly.
There's also, what could be, a murder mystery about Le Prince himself. He was observed getting on a train at Dijon, France in 1890 and was never seen again, alive or dead.
Regards,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 652
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 9:59 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
Ah yes, Le Prince. I read the book about his fate, THE MISSING REEL, about ten years ago. He's one of those figures in technology, on the rim of greatness, who somehow just fail to make it. In his case, he probably died or decided he had to make an exit (I have no real way of guessing, based on what I read). The author of THE MISSING REEL did suggest (in one of several scenarios) Le Prince getting into the train compartment at Dijon, and finding a mysterious, sinister man occupying it. Later the man is described having deposited a large bag on the side of the tracks (i.e., like Eyraud and Bompard getting rid of Gouffe's body a year earlier).
The only other figure I know of, in the technological revolutions of the last two hundred years, who vanished or died mysteriously was Rudolph Diesel...but he was an important figure because of his marvelous engine. In 1913 he was headed for England to discuss selling his technology to the British navy (he needed the cash), and he vanished from a channel steamer. His body was eventually found. Either he committed suicide because of his debts, or he fell off the boat, or an agent of the Wilhelmine Government pushed him overboard to prevent an important technological advance from being given to the British.
To me, the types of figures who approach Le Prince in dying on the edge of greatness were Otto Lilienthal and Percy Pilcher in aviation, and David Schwartz, the Austrian engineer whose plans for an aluminum, gasoline powered airship failed in his hands, but worked when acquired by Count Ferdinand Zepperlin.
By the way, there was an error of sorts in THE MISSING REEL. The author admitted thinking that Edison (in his high handed patent snatching ways) was behind Le Prince's disappearance, said he could not find any smoking gun pointing to Thomas Alva. But I did find that Le Prince was not the first person in Edison's career who vanished and was never heard from again. In 1888, Edison had been using an adventurer named Frank McGowan to locate a rare bamboo that might be useful in improving the filament of his light bulb. McGowan made a journey through nations of the Andes (Peru, Ecuador, and Columbia) to locate this bamboo (gramina) and ship it to Edison. He returned to the U.S in November 1888, got his pay of $2,000.00 for the trip in cash, had lunch with an acquaintance, walked into the streets of Manhattan, and was never seen again. Edison hired William J. Burns to find him, but Burns couldn't. There is a page and a footnote about this in Robert Conot's biography of the "Wizard of Menlo Park", A STREAK OF LUCK (New York: Seaview Books, 1979), and a reference to the disappearance in Matthew Josephson's biography EDISON. So, technically, Le Prince was the second figure in Edison's life who vanished mysteriously.
ROPE is a good movie, but I find it static. The best performance in it (I thought) was not Stewart's but John Dall (certainly a malevolent type in this film if ever). Dall died too young. He was a pretty good actor.
If you would look at IMDB for one of my reviews (THE HONEY POT, for example, or NICHOLAS NICKLEBY (1947), you can press my "theowinthrop" e-mail name and find a total listing. So far I have reviewed (for better or worse) about 270 titles. Some are true crime films, or based on true crimes (like COMPULSION, LADIES IN RETIREMENT, and THE BODYSNATCHER).
I read the Evelyn Foster book, as well as the one on the Elwell Case, and the Starr Faithfull book. I like Goodman's work. He tries to be realistic in his approach to these mysteries, and he tries to be thorough.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 559
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 3:53 pm: |
|
Jeff,
I have an interesting sidelight on the Crimmins case that involved a neighbor of mine. On the order of Mrs. Maxwell and Mary Jane Kelly and as easily dismissed . . . or not. Since the individual is still alive -- just -- I don't want to post anything here, but if you'd like to email me privately I'll give you the gist.
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 117
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 8:51 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I noticed on another thread you said something about doing stuff for Find-A-Grave. Do you know why they put people on there when they don't know where they're buried? My x-g/f and I found her former father-in-law on there but it said his grave location was unknown. He was a racing driver named William "Shorty" Cantlon and he died in a mysterious crash during the 1947 Indianapolis 500. I've talked to radio announcer and track historian Donald Davidson about it and he hinted at a cause that he told me in confidence. I wondered if it had something to do with him being confronted by an illegitimate son on the morning of the race which Davidson was unaware of. Cantlon was also in the 1932 movie "The Crowd Roars" with James Cagney.
Interesting mystery about Le Prince. I was thinking about starting a thread for far-fetched theories. How about; LePince was killed by Jack the Ripper because he caught him in the act on the world's first surveillance camera? Suuurrre, that one goes on right after; Eddowes was a secret agent for Pinkerton's.
From what I've seen regarding Le Prince's first "camera", it was more like a group of still cameras mounted in a single box with a mechanism to trigger the shutters sequentially. In a way, more like a tidied up version of Muybridge's serial camera system from the 1870s.
William Friese-Greene had a more modern like camera at about the same time. I submitted his 20 foot, 10 frame/second 1889 film that he shot in Hyde Park to IMDb. I don't know if they're going to accept it. They seem to be flustered because the film was made and viewed in 1889 and they don't list that year in their index.
Your mention of someone possibly parceling Le Prince up and leaving his body off the train reminded me of another criminal who traveled around dropping off packaged human remaims from the railway. The Brighton Trunk Mystery is certainly one of the great puzzles of all time.
I also thought of Alfred Lowenstein when you mentioned Diesel's disappearance. He was the businessman who also vanished while crossing the channel in 1928. In his case, they were never sure if he fell, jumped or was pushed from his airplane.
Regarding detective William Burns, I always think of him in connection with the Leo Frank/Mary Phagan case. I liked the TV movie on that one too.
I wrote about the Elwell Case for AMW News Magazine and considered doing the same with Starr Faithful. After investigation, I decided not to because there was too much doubt as to whether it really was murder. If I remember correctly, Gloria Vanderbilt wrote a book about the case and claimed that Starr was murdered by a former mayor of Boston.
As for "Ladies in Retirement", I'm a big Ida Lupino fan. Always found her strangely alluring. She was a great director in "The Hitch-Hiker" too; based in the William Cook murder spree. When Cook was on the loose in 1950, I remember seeing his picture on the front page of the paper. I was four-years-old and it scared the crap out of me.
I agree with you about Dall's performance in "Rope". Another great villain who died off right after a Hitchcock movie was in the can was Robert Walker in "Strangers on a Train". Farley Granger was very good in both as well. It almost makes it look he was a jinx to his costars.
Regards,
Stan
(Message edited by Sreid on May 18, 2005) |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 653
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 11:04 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I haven't added anything on the FIND-A-GRAVE Board for at least three quarters of a year. I use the username "Mayerling" on it. Among the graves I visited were Mary Kelly's and Elizabeth Short and Grace Budd (but most are high level historical figures, like various Civil War figured - occasionally I would find a notorious figure. Look up Chester Gillette, for example).
Recently I got e-mail from a member of the family of one 19th Century killer whose grave I left a message on. I was able to point some books out to the person about her ancestor's case.
One of the things I like about the site is it shows what famous or infamous people are buried near one's home. I live in Flushing in Queens. My high school, John Bowne High School, is across the street from Mt. Hebron Cemetery. In this predominantly Jewish cemetery are the graves of a grandaunt and uncle of mine, but I discovered Molly Picon, Boris Tomishevski, and other Yiddish theatre stars are there. So is the comedians and actors Alan King and Jack Gilford. But so are several less desireable people, led by Louis "Lepke" Buchalter of "Murder Inc."
One day I may resume putting comments on it.
I never saw Cagney's THE CROWD ROARS. I'll have to try to catch it. The story of "Shorty" Cantlon sounds fascinating. Did your ex-g/f ever find evidence of an illegitimate half-brother?
Regarding Le Prince's invention, Christopher Rawlence makes a good case for his finding the key innovation that was needed for the motion picture camera to function properly. He figured out that the film had to have regularly spaced holes on the sides for it to synchronize in a projector properly. Edison and his associate George Eastman eventually came up with a similar idea. It gave their work the advantage over competitors.
I know little about Friese-Greene except for the film with Robert Donat. I like that movie.
The Brighton Trunk Mystery was written up by Jonathan Goodman in a book, THE RAILWAY MURDERS
(London: Allison & Busby, 1984). It goes into the police information on who they suspected for the murder in the Brighton Train Station. It was not Tony Mancini, who just happened to drop off the corpse of his girlfriend (whom he killed in a moment of anger) at the same train station.
Tony, fortunately for himself, had Norman Birkett as his attorney, and (remarkably) was acquitted.
There is a book about Loewenstein called THE MAN WHO FELL FROM THE SKY by William Norris. It was
written in 1989 and is a thorough discussion of the death of the traction magnate. Norris believed that Loewenstein was killed on purpose, but found too many possible suspects and motives(sort of like the death of Serge Rubenstein in 1955). By the way, his death has been used (in variations) in at least three films: SUCH MEN ARE DANGEROUS with Warner Baxter and Bela Lugosi,
GILDA with Rita Hayworth, Glenn Ford, and George Macready, and CONFIDENTIAL REPORT (a.k.a. MR. ARKADIN) with Orson Welles and Akim Tamiroff.
William J. Burns is a fascinating detective. He was also the first head of the F.B.I., but he was head during the Harding Administration and it hurt his reputation (his boss, Attorney General Daugherty, misused the F.B.I. to spy on those investigating the Harding Administration Scandals, and Burns complied with Daugherty's orders).
Vanderbilt means former Boston Mayor Andrew Peters (served 1918 - 1922). He was a distant relative of Starr's mother. Peters and the under age (but developed) Starr had an affair.
He is a leading suspect, but not necessarily the guilty party.
I don't recall the William Cook case - please remind of it's details.
Best wishes,
Jeff
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Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 123
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 2:22 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I've been meaning to ask, what's your favorite Mayerling film?
I liked the movie inspired by the Chester Gillette case,A Place in the Sun.
You mentioned the Yiddish arts. I've always been a little interested in ethnic cinema including Yiddish Cinema. Do you know of any that was made in America? I've always associated it with central or eastern Europe.
I once heard Larry King assert that a millionaire had never been executed in the United States making some kind of point about the unfairness in our justice system. Buchalter immediately came to my mind when he said that. I'm pretty sure he was a multi-millionaire at the time and might even have been a billionaire in today's money.
Cantlon's illegitimate son was my x-g/f's former husband; now deceased. He was the one who confronted him on the day of the race. He didn't know Cantlon was his father until his aunt told him when he was 16. He was 21 when the meeting occurred. I'm not suggesting anything sinister on his part. I just thought that the action might have rattled Cantlon enough that he wasn't paying as close attention as he should. My contact had some other ideas about the cause of the crash, some of which he chose not to reveal.
I found out that Friese-Greene used 54mm film so, if it was the usual 1 1/3 : 1 aspect ratio and with the space between the frames, there would have been close to if not exactly 5 frames per foot. At 10 frames/second, the 20 foot film would have run a whole 10 seconds.
I've read The Railway Murders but I'd forgotten it was by Goodman.
Cecil England a.k.a. Tony Mancini confessed the murder to a paper after his trial but I was always suspicious that he was paid to say that guilty or not. Great way to boost sales. The accounts I've read say that Violet Kaye's remains were found in a trunk at Mancini's residence.
Odd that they couldn't identify the woman or the killer in the other case, although, I guess a doctor of mediocre repute was looked at pretty seriously as the latter.
A third murder case arose at the same time when the body of baby girl was found in some baggage that had been left in the lost luggage room at Brighton Station. She'd been there for about four months and was never identified either.
Back to William Burns, I know his agency was also belatedly involved in the Cincinnati murder series in the early 1900s. I don't know if Burns was personally involved though.
Regarding the William Cook case, he was the product of a broken home and spent his eary years involved in petty crime. He was released from prison in 1950 when he was 22 sporting a fresh jailhouse tatoo saying "HARD LUCK". He then began traveling the U.S. by means of carjackings. When one of his stolen vehicles ran out of gas along an Oklahoma highway in late December, Mr. and Mrs. Carl Mosser with their three children stopped to help him. Pulling out his gun, Cook forced the family to drive him around for several days. At the end of his joy ride, he ordered them out of the car and killed all five; dispatching the family dog for good measure. He then high-jacked a police car and used it to pull over a salesman named Robert Dewey. After forcing Dewey to drive him to California, Cook killed him too. He then took two more hostages and forced them to drive him to Mexico where he was recognized and captured. He was sent back to California and went to the gas chamber on December 12 of 1952; to my relief as I was now six-years-old.
Regards,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 654
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 8:46 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
Unfortunately I have only seen the film with Omar Shariff as Rudolph. I never saw the film with Charles Boyer. The Shariff film was interesting enough, but too long and a bit hard to believe at the conclusion (Rudolph's head was partially blown off by the pistol shot, but we are supposed to believe he lived long enough to reach for and grab Maria Vetsera's hand as he was dying. Effective cinema, maybe, but not very likely.
A PLACE IN THE SUN was pretty good film - an interesting minor point is switching the name of the family from Gilette (Chester was supposedly a distant relation of razor king King Gillette) to Eastman (as in George Eastman), especially as the killing was in upstate New York, and George Eastman's photography empire was centered in Rochester, New York. But the family business in the film is a woman's clothing company.
By the way, have you ever seen the Von Sternberg film version with Philips Holmes and Sylvia Sidney? It is shorter, but has some good moments in it. But Dreiser disliked what Paramount did to his book, and he sued the company for the "damage'.
There was a trivia question in the recent Jeopardy championship series on the LIBRARY OF AMERICA series of classic American works. AN AMERICAN TRAGEDY is the only novel that fills up one of the 800 page volumes by itself.
I did not know about the child in the bag story, but I recall (from Goodman's essay) that a doctor was about to be arrested for the abortion death of a patient (the body found but not identified in Brighton), but some idiot on the local police force confronted the doctor before the trap to arrest him was fully ready. The doctor immediately called every prominent family head whose daughters he "helped", and their united influence killed any further investigation.
I don't know enough about the Cincinatti series of killings to say anything about them or if Burns was involved himself. I also liked the Jack Lemmon film about Leo Frank. Another film I would like to see (but haven't) is THEY'LL NEVER FORGET with Claude Rains (and introducing Lana Turner as the victim). It hasn't been on at a reasonable time on the Turner network in the last two years.
That Cook fellow sounds like a really mean psychopath. In a way his crime wave, with using his victim's vehicles for further mayhem, sounds like a model for Charles Starkweather in 1957. Maybe the latter had read of Cook too, and took down the features as a model for his own viciousness.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 129
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 7:53 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
No, I knew there was an older version of An American Tragedy but I have not seen it.
I do remember reading something about the abortionist and all the baby mama drama in the Brighton case (it reminds me a little of Christie) but I wondered how much they really had on him. The woman who was found was pregnant but the accounts I've read say that the fetus was undisturbed. Also, the case was nationally publicized and I should think that someone who knew a missing woman would contact the police whether they knew she was pregnant or not.
As for They Won't Forget I have it on tape and wrote a brief review on it, along with ten other films, for T.E.D. Klein's CrimeBeat Magazine in 1992. It's a pretty good film but not much like the actual case.
I read an OK book about the Frank/Phagan case about fifteen years ago. It was written by a woman who was Mary's grandniece if I remember correctly.
All things considered, I'd say The Murder of Mary Phagan is the second best true crime TV movie after Murder in the Heartland. Tim Roth does a first class job playing Startweather in that one.
I always thought if they ever make a film about Brady and Hindley that Roth would be perfect and if not him Sean Bean. Cate Blanchett plays Myra and either Tobe Hooper or Ridley Scott directs. What do you think?
A while back when I was at Barnes and Noble, I saw that Brady has a book out. I can't imagine putting money in that creep's pocket, in fact, I refused to even pick it up.
My two favorite true based serial killer movies are 10 Rillington Place and The Young Poisoner's Handbook. The only true crime film I'd rate above them is White Mischief.
Bests,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 655
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 12:58 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I liked 10 RILLINGTON PLACE (which I still have not reviewed on the IMDB Board), but I am unfamiliar with THE YOUNG POISONER'S HANDBOOK.
I did not see WHITE MISCHIEF, but I read the book. I found the acquittal of the defendant quite ironic in the end.
I never read the Leo Frank book by Mary Phagan (grand niece and namesake of the victim), but I recall she was giving the point of view of Mary's family in believing Leo was guilty. I have two books here (Harry Golden's A LITTLE GIRL IS DEAD is one of them) which tell the story, but they support the theory that Leo was innocent.
Problem with the case is what emerged in the 1980s when Alonzo Mann finally came forward with his story of seeing Jim Conley with Mary's body. It sound plausible (especially if one is inclined to believe Leo was innocent), but all it means is Conley was transporting the body - he may not have killed Mary. Also, it was 1985 that he came forward. The jury is dead, the prosecutor and defense attorney and judge are dead, rebuttal witness Conley is probably dead, and we are left with only Mann's statement. It really is not tested testimony in a trial transcript, and the Georgia Legislature was right in refusing to alter the court decision - no matter how much one might decry that decision.
Georgia has gone as far as they could go with it's posthumous pardon for Leo - it is based on the failure of the state to protect him from a lynch mob.
I liked THE MURDER OF MARY PHAGAN, especially Lemmon's portrayal as Governor Slaton. Wisely he becomes the center of the film's activities. Robert Prosky was a dandy Tom Watson (although he does not look like the Populist leader).
The concentration on Lemmon's character is similar to a cable film about the Dreyfus Affair that starred Richard Dreyfus as Major Picquart. His character (who cracked open that cover-up) is the center of that film.
I have not seen Bradley's book in the bookstores yet. I imagine he will try to pass the blame of his acts to society or Myra or someone else. Wait until it is available at a bottom-of-the-barrel remainder pile, or at a second-hand book sale. As for casting, from my memories of what they look like (from those police photographs) the actors to play them both would have to be quite plain looking. Myra was blond (was she naturally so? Probably not), but somewhat dumpy and puffy looking. Bradley was thinner and had dark hair (black or brown). Cate Blanchett would be too pretty (I think) for Myra. Can't think of anyone. If Sean Penn could handle a Scots accent, he might essay Ian.
The first book I ever read concerning that case was BEYOND BELIEF. I read it in the 1960s. And in 1980 I saw it's author, Emlyn Williams, on stage playing Charles Dickens in a one man show.
It was delightful.
I have to admit not seeing MURDER IN THE HEARTLAND either, but I've seen some documentaries on Starkweather on Biography and on the History Channel. His girlfriend/accomplice finally got released from prison about fifteen years ago.
Best wishes,
Jeff
|
Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 135
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 8:15 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
The Young Poisoner's Handbook is an account of serial killer Graham Young. It's told in a black comedy style and I love it.
Regarding White Mischief, I've also read the book and think that Sir Delves probably did it.
You're right, the Mary Phagan book did at least infer that the family thought Frank was guilty, even now. I tend not to agree. I've also read A Little Girl is Dead and was stopped by a cop when I was taking it back to the library one evening. I wondered what he'd say if he saw it but he let me off with a warning whether he saw it or not.
That Alonzo Mann guy popping in at the last minute aroused my suspicions as well. He reminds me a lot of John Parks in the Wallace case. Maybe they're telling the truth or maybe they're just looking for a little notoriety before they pass on. Funny they keep they're mouths shut until the accused dies.
One of the most interesting parts of the case is how Conley wowed them on the witness stand. I guess they didn't expect a black man to be such a good talker. He sort of exceeded expectations like Willie Stevens did in the Hall-Mills Case.
I haven't seen the movie about the Dreyfus Case but I did see Richard Dreyfus on a talk show telling about it.
Regarding Cate Blanchett playing Myra in the hypothetical Moors Murders movie, perhaps they could dirty her up like they did Charlize Theron to play Wuornos. I doubt that she'd want the role anyway. Another actress I thought about was Courtney Love but I'm afaid that might be a little too close a match.
I've only read accounts of the crimes in collected case study type books. I don't recall seeing Beyond Belief anywhere. It seems to me, a lot of Brits were sorry they didn't end the death penalty a year later after they heard about the slayings.
As for Starkweather, being in the Midwest, I remember everyone being on edge when he was on the loose too. It was a lot like the thing with Cook.
Regards,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 657
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 8:34 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
Before leaving the unfortunate Leo Frank, I have an odd story (which is true) to tell you. As a movie lover you are probably aware of that old time character actor Percy Helton. Well, I know a rather obnoxious little man who could be Helton's son (he's plump, short, and while he has more hair he has the same irritating high pitch squealing voice that Helton did). This individual I know I will call Sam (not his real name). Sam is a history fanatic. If he knows you like history he will button hole you and ask your opinion on all kinds of questions (if Albert Sidney Johnston had not bled to death at Shiloh, would he have beaten Grant, is typical of Sam's questions). Well, he frequently talks about the Leo Frank case - he claimed he was distantly related to Frank. In fact, he even went on a trip to Atlanta and managed to meet Ms Phagan (who whatever her opinions are is a busy reporter/writer). They agreed to disagree about the solution.
Well then, what was his big family connection to Leo Frank? Sam's wife was the niece of an in-law cousin of Frank's wife. The way Sam always talks about it one would think there was a blood connection but there isn't any. And, of course, with that "Percy Helton" voice and appearance the total irritation he creates on the subject is something not to behold (if you are lucky).
I think Conley's appearance on the stand was such a rarity in 1914 Atlanta (an African American testifying against a white man - imagine that), that it did create a sensation. Conley was probably determined to be as credible as possible on the stand. Even if he did not kill Mary Phagan he knew he was the next suspect after Frank - his testimony was needed to prevent local attention from reaching for him. An understandable point of view, no matter if you think Conley guilty or not.
In passing by the Dreyfus Case I delivered a lecture on it over a year ago. There are two possible murder mysteries in it. The first is the death of Major Hubert Henry, who was implicated in the cover up and the manufacturing of "proof" against Dreyfus. He apparently committed suicide in his cell (most likely he did), but there have been all kinds of suggestions that (as the French novelist Celine suggested), "Maybe somebody helped him a little."
But the other is even more curious. Emile Zola died in 1902 of asphyxiation due to a stuffed chimney stove flue in his home. There is a possibility the flue was tampered with.
If any pair were deserving of a special act of Parliament in the 1960s briefly restoring the death penalty in the United Kingdom it was Ian and Myra. Not even the Krays could excite as much hatred.
I looked up THE YOUNG POISONER'S GUIDE on the IMDB website. There are quite a number of postings. I think Young died a few years ago.
The movie sounds quite good.
Best wishes,
Jeff
|
Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 140
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 6:33 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
That "Sam" guy sounds like a real piece of work. I do remember Percy Helton. In his later years, he reminded me of an organ grinder's monkey.
It looks like there's some extra intrigue in the Dreyfus Case. I know the basics of it but not a lot of details.
One thing I forgot to mention about the White Mischief film is that they totally ignore Errol's past affiliation with Oswald Mosley's Black Shirt Fascist movement. Although I think Broughton probably did it, when I wrote an article about the case for AMW News Magazine, I offered another possibility. That was, since Italian Somaliland was just over the border from Kenya, perhaps Mussolini could have sent some agents in to punish him for deserting the cause.
You're right about Young dieing in prison. I always felt a little guilty for enjoying that movie because those people were really killed but so be it. The movie Dandelion Dead, about the Herbert Armstrong case, was kind of in the same vein but it didn't bother me as much. I guess because of the greater passage of time.
You mentioned the Krays. That was a great film as well. Reg and Ron got "The Whole Life Tariff", British life without parole, just like Ian and Myra and Ian is the only one still living.
One last thing on Rope, I saw when I looked it up on IMDb that there was a 90 minute version that was shown on British TV in 1939. That would have been the old BBC 405 lines of resolution/25 interlace frames per second system I believe. That would have been something to see. I imagine it was live and, since I don't believe they even had Kinescope then, it's probably lost forever.
Best regards,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 658
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 8:55 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
Everytime I have seen those IMDB references to 1939 BBC television productions I feel like crying. From what I understand, to those people who were renting the special televisions at the time (which, I believe, was very expensive), they were able to see some of the finest actors of that generation in the plays that were currently on the West End. However, the deal that Lord Reith had with the West End theatre producers was that the special television disks or tapes that were made would be destroyed after a certain amount of time. So if you saw Ralph Richardson in Priestly's EDEN EAST or some other 1938 play with him or Olivier or Evans or Redgrave it was a performance that was on television once. To me it is as much a loss to us as all the lost plays of Euripides, Sophocles, etc.
There has always been a hint of a suspicion about Lord Erroll being killed by Fascists in Kenya, but with his philandering you really did not have to look far for other more likely suspects, including Sir Delves (but not limited to him). It is a wonderful little mystery, but I find it fascinating for snobbery effect. Other philanderers have been killed in history, but Lord Erroll is like the lightning rod figure because he is a nobleman (I think the hereditary high constable of Scotland, if I'm not mistaken). If he wasn't Lord Erroll, would he still be such a fascinating figure? How many people remember Philip Barton Key or Saville Morton, two 19th Century philanderers who were killed by outraged husbands? Key was shot in Washington, D.C. by then Congressman Daniel Sickles (the trial was a big sensation in 1859). Morton was stabbed to death by a fellow newspaper reporter in Paris, who thought Morton was the father of his children. That was in 1852. Morton was a close chum of William Thackeray, but he's pretty much forgotten by history. Neither has the cache, somehow, of Lord Erroll.
Armstrong's case is also the basis of the Francis Iles novel MALICE AFORETHOUGHT, although elements of the similarly mousy Dr. Crippen are brought in to create the "protagonist" Dr. Bickley. But the country house setting, the ease with which the wife's death is made to look like an unfortunate drug problem, and the fact that a second poisoning leads to the undoing of Dr. Bickley is just like Armstrong being undone for trying to poison Martin, his rival solicitor.
The only difference is the ironic conclusion of the novel that differs from real life.
If you want to try to see a good film, suggested by the Crippen Case (but taking the view that the Doctor was innocent), try Paul Muni's WE ARE NOT ALONE. I saw it last October on the Turner Classic Film Channel, and it was wonderful.
I don't know how spartan was the prison conditions Reg and Ronnie faced in jail (one of them got married while in jail - I think it was Ronnie, the homosexual brother trying to prove he wasn't gay), and both even made a considerable sum of money when they were paid for the rights to the film of their life story.
Hardly as hard as they deserved. Did you ever see the Monty Python spoof about them where they are called the Piranna Brothers? I particularly like it when the authorities don't take notice of their activities until one of them detonates a nuclear device. And the other one thinks he's being followed by a huge hedgehog called "Spiny Norman" (it turns out in the end he was!).
As for "Sam" he is a real piece of work. I did not even discuss his weird political fixations. He hopes to discover a hitherto unknown politician who will rise all the way to the top.
Does he hope to become the man behind the politician? No, he just wants to be the gopher for such a figure. As Jack Paar used to say, "I kid you not."
Best wishes,
Jeff
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Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 142
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 6:15 pm: |
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Hi Jeff,
Yes, it was sad that all those live TV shows were lost to the ether. Sort of like the library burning at Alexandria.
As far as Lord Errol goes, in the film, they say he was something like forth in line to the defunct throne of Scotland. I don't know how accurate that is. The movie followed actual events pretty well until the ending which differed in method although not in result. Another theory I've read suggests that British Intelligence might have taken Errol out because they suspected some disloyalty on his part. From the pictures I've seen, the actress who portrayed Diana was much better looking than the real person.
I don't recall seeing anything on Morton and Thackery but I definitly remember Key and Sickles.
Probably because one was the son of the author of "The Star Spangled Banner" and the other went on to become a Civil War hero of a sort. If I remember correctly, his amputated leg is still on display in some medical museum somewhere. I'd probably also add Ewell to the murdered scoundrels list.
The Brits certainly know how to make good true-crime film most of which seem to feature one of the controversial post-war death penalty cases, such as, Ruth Ellis, Derek Bentley and Tim Evans. I kept expecting to see "The Hanratty Story" any year but now that DNA has pretty much proven him guilty that may have gone out the window.
I don't recall seeing those two films you mention so I'll be on the look out for them.
Too bad the Krays were allowed to make money on the movie. They should have waited until they died off which is what I think happened in the Errol case.
I do remember seeing that skit on Monty Python but I was unsure if they were spoofing the Krays or the Richardson brothers. One of my sons gave me Volume One of the Monty Python word book for Christmas one year. I saw in the index that Volume Two has this skit in it but I didn't ever get that one.
Best regards,
Stan
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 659
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 8:18 pm: |
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Hi Stan,
I have not heard any rumors, but there can still be a "Hanratty Story" film. The family (when they saw the DNA blow up in their faces) immediately said the police had accidentally or purposely contaminated it. I always find it fascinating how those who use DNA to get felons released or to discredit a police investigation always avert their eyes the moment the DNA proves them wrong. The same thing happened a few years back when Anna Anderson's DNA was compared to the Romanovs' and to the remains found in the mine shaft at Ekaterinaberg. The findings seemed to shut the door on Ms Anderson being the Grandduchess Anastasia. But now her supporters are insisting there was some hankypanky with that DNA sample too. So I have no doubt someone will come up with a Hanratty film, suggesting (for some unknown reason) the Government had to pin the A6 murder on him and then pursue his guilt to some four decades after executing him.
I saw DANCE WITH A STRANGER when it was released here (about 1985) with Natasha Richardson as Ruth Ellis. I forgot who played her lover/victim. Ian Holm was in it, and I recall it was quite well acted.
Oddly enough there has been no attempt to do a film on Elvira Barney and her lover. It would be an interesting period piece. I wonder who could play Sir Patrick Hastings or Mrs. Barney.
The conclusion, of course, is when after the trial Hastings (on a vacation in Paris) is almost run over by Mrs. Barney. Sort of an ironic coda to the story.
I figure that the Pirannas had to be the Krays because both names are the names of fish. The Richardsons were not nice either, but their operations seem far smaller than the Krays whose nightclubs and gambling dens tried to attract the upper crust - I wonder if Lord Lucan ever went to any of their gambling dens?).
Another good film suggested by the Crippen Case is THE SUSPECT with Charles Laughton as the husband, and Stanley Ridges as the Scotland Yard Detective who comes to like him. It is set eight years earlier, but follows the story closely (including Laughton planning to relocate to Canada with his secretary). Henry Daniell plays a subsidiary villain in the movie. A good film all around.
Best wishes,
Jeff
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Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1771
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 4:13 am: |
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Hi Jeff,
In 'Dance with a Stranger', Ruth Ellis was played by Miranda Richardson (also of Blackadder fame, giving us a terrifically girlie Elizabeth I).
Ruth's lover (David Blakeley?) was played, I believe, by Rupert Everett.
Love,
Caz
X |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 660
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 5:17 pm: |
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Hi Caz,
I knew it was one of the Richardson's, but not sure which.
Miranda is the daughter of Vanessa Redgrave. I once (accidentally) found that there is a vague, but curious connection between the Redgraves and one of Victorian England's most notorious killers. Not related, but connected due to acting. I can't explain what it is at present, as I still hope to use it one day in some writing on that killer.
I wasn't sure it was Rupert Everett or not.
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 143
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 5:30 pm: |
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Hi Jeff,
I agree about those DNA equivocaters. Another thing I hate to see is those Innocence Project people telling those chumps how sorry they are that the DNA at the crime scene was actually theirs. They should be outraged with these clowns for wasting their time and money knowing they were guilty. Worse yet, they wasted time and money that could have been spent on an inmate who actually was innocent.
From the pictures I've seen of Elvira Barney, she was a little hefty so maybe Kirstie Alley could play her. Just kidding. It would make a good movie though. Another case that should be put on film is Bywaters/Thompson; a great tragedy with the two lovers being hanged in the end. A good case that was filmed and filmed well was Rattenbury in Cause Celebre.
I would suspect that Lord Lucan might have popped into one of the Krays' joints. Wonder where he's playing now? Perhaps with William Bradford Bishop another missing murderer.
Regarding the Crippen Case, I saw recently that Ethel LeNeve lived well into the late twentieth century. Until she died, her family knew absolutely nothing about her early life.
Best regards,
Stan |
Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 144
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 6:02 pm: |
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P.S.
Aha! I see there is a Bywaters/Thompson film. Shall have to track that one down.
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 663
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 11:10 am: |
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Hi Stan,
Wherever a living Lord Lucan can be found, he would not be playing with William Bradford Bishop unless it was socially acceptable. Lucan was (from what I read about him) a terrible snob.
By the way, Lucan was the second member of his aristocratic line tied to a homicide. His ancestor, the Earl of Lucan who was involved in the Charge of the Light Brigade, was a witness in an 1872 murder trial. That Lord Lucan's mistress, a Madame Riel, was hacked to death in her home by her maid, Marguerite Dixblanc. Marguerite fled to the continent, but was brought back (ironically by the future notorious Chief Inspector Nat Druscovitch), and Lucan had the embarrassment of having to appear for some collateral details about Madame Riel's establishment at her trial. By the way, that Lord Lucan died in 1888 at the age of ninety - one year after finally being promoted to Field Marshall!
I am aware of the Byswaters - Thompson film, but never saw it. I believe that years ago the BBC did a mini-series based on A PIN TO SEE A PEEP SHOW, F. Tennyson Jesse's novelization on this case.
In all these triangle tragedies, I forgot to mention two dealing with a biggie from America:
THE GIRL IN THE RED VELVET SWING and RAGTIME. Both deal with the killing of Stanford White by Harry K. Thaw, and the scandal about Mrs. Evelyn
Nesbitt Thaw. By the way, did you know that one of the witnesses at White's killing was his brother-in-law William Clinch-Smith. The latter would die in the Titanic disaster six years aftewards, along with William Stead.
Another triangle tragedy that has been ignored for dramatic treatment is the Richardson - McFarlane tragedy of 1869. Albert Richardson was a prominent war correspondent and reporter for the New York Tribune. He had fallen in love with Abby Sage McFarlane, who was the abused wife of a drunk and would-be politician named Daniel McFarlane. In that period Abby dared to get a divorce from McFarlane. He went beserk and fatally shot Richardson at the Tribune's offices on Park Row in lower Manhattan. One of the witnesses was future theatrical impressario Daniel Frohman (then a copy-boy). Richardson lingered several days before dying, but he married Abby (the ceremony was performed by the Rev. Henry Ward Beecher). McFarlane's trial was a farce. Despite evidence that he tried to blackmail Richardson and the Tribune, he was protected as a defender of hearth and home (like Dan Sickels in 1859 and Harry Thaw in 1907). He was acquitted. However, he eventually died destitute in the American west. Abby Sage Richardson became a writer and play production reader, and successfully raised her children by McFarlane. Among her friends were Frohman, his brother Charles (the one lost on the Lusitania) and Mark Twain (who wrote several blistering attacks on the sudden insanity defense of McFarlane at the trial). Abby died in 1900.
Best wishes,
Jeff
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Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 145
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 9:33 pm: |
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Hi Jeff,
Bishop was a man of some rank in the government so I'm not sure how that would rate with Lucan. I should think his snob tendencies might have been taken down a notch or two by now given his state, that is, if he's still around. I always kind of pegged him as a baby boomer wannabe.
I've seen both of the films you mentioned about the Stanford White murder although neither follows the case very closely. I have also seen snippets of the 1907 short The Unwritten Law: A Thrilling Drama Based on the Thaw-White Tragedy which recreates the crime.
Regarding Crippen, there is a black and white movie called Dr. Crippen that was released in 1962. I haven't seen it but would like to.
As for famous murders as a result of love triangles, there are all those unsolved slayings in which that was at least one of the theories. We've already discussed Storrs. Then you have those like William Desmond Taylor and Dot King. In the Dr. Sam Sheppard case, you have alleged affairs involving both him and his wife. Sheppard did eventually admit to at least one himself. Due to the unsolved nature of these cases we'll probably never know for sure if they were triangle killings or not. I should suspect that at least some of them are.
Best regards,
Stan
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 665
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 11:12 pm: |
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Hi Stan,
I once saw "Stanford White". Years ago I was in the 42nd Street Library and was standing in line to hand in some book requests slips. It turned out that Norman Mailer was standing in front of me. He played White in RAGTIME.
When you mentioned the film DR. CRIPPEN, I think that Donald Pleasance played the doctor. But I have not seen this film either.
They were supposed to do a film about Desmond Taylor's murder, based on Sidney Fitzpatrick's book A CAST OF KILLERS (involving the investigation of director King Vidor). However nothing ever came of it. There is, however, a film about the odd death of Thomas Ince called THE CAT'S MEOW by Peter Bogdonavitch.
By the way, the Philo Vance novel (and, presumably, the movie) THE CANARY MURDER CASE is supposedly based on the murder of Dot King.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 146
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 7:09 pm: |
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Hi Jeff,
I did thumb through the Stanford White book at the library but didn't check it out. Around here, I shouldn't expect to see any celebrities hanging around either.
The book on Taylor, I did read about 15 years ago but don't remember if they came to any conclusion.
I know that Charlotte Shelby is the popular suspect right now. If my memory serves me correctly, there was another woman who had never been connected with the case who left some writings that hinted that she had done it. They were found after she died not too long ago.
I remember seeing that film about Ince reviewed some time ago and looked for it at Blockbuster but haven't found it yet. Does the film point the finger at Hearst?
Also, I see that there's a movie coming out next year entitled Zodiac which is supposed to be based on Graysmith's book. It's a good book although I don't really agree with his conclusion. I saw there's also a film called The Zodiac Killer coming out this year but I'm not sure if it's about the same case. Maybe it's a remake of the dreadful 1971 movie of the same name. I guess the cops staked out the theater where it was first shown hoping the real guy would show up to check it out. If he did, perhaps that's the reason he stopped killing.
Depending on how you count them, I think that's about six films on this case. There's the loosely based Dirty Harry and the 1992 Mexican movie El Asesino del zodiaco. I've also seen it said that the 1996 TV movie The Limbic Region was based on Zodiac but I've also heard the claim that it was inspired by Kemper.
Best regards,
Stan
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 667
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 9:12 pm: |
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Hi Stan,
The Fitzpatrick book grabbed all the headlines in 1982 (I believe that was when it was published). Vidor not only thought that he had found that there was a cover-up by Paramount and that the killer was Mary Miles Minter's mother Charlotte Selby, but also felt that a second Hollywood director who died in 1937 under mysterious circumstances may have been killed by Selby. He also wondered if Selby was still alive in the late 1950s, when he visited an aging, "Baby Jane" Minter in her home.
Ironically at about the same time, Richard Giroux (of the publishing house) wrote a book about Desmond Taylor's death linking it to the director's involvement in fighting a drug ring in Hollywood (which involved his other girl friend, Mabel Normand). It did not get quite the exposure of Fitzgerald's book.
In his book, ACTS OF MURDER: TRUE LIFE MURDER CASES FROM THE WORLD OF STAGE AND SCREEN, Jonathan Goodman (London & Sidney, Futura, 1986, 1987), Mr. Goodman opts for Mabel as the murderess.
However, I have not seen anything about some writings discovered since by another woman, confessing to the crime. On the other hand it sounds vaguely like another Hollywood mystery. The late Sam Marx wrote a book THE MURDER OF PAUL BERN, who was the producer husband married to Jean Harlow. Normally Bern's death was considered suicide. But Marx showed that he was a bigamist with a mad wife, who shot him to death and then killed herself (by jumping from a ferry boat).
THE CAT'S MEOW takes the view that Hearst (Edward Herrmann) shot a desperate Ince on his yacht in an accident (he was aiming for Chaplin, trying to have an trist with Marion Davies). It is the theory that usually has been suggested by students of the mystery (Ince is facing financial and critical disaster, so he is trying to find something to give him leverage for Hearst or Chaplin's backing - and gets into the way of a fusillade). It is possible, but it was a theory that Hearst's multitudinous enemies came up with to hit at him. Herman Mankiewicz, the original author of AMERICAN (later called CITIZEN KANE) put a scene in that suggested that Hearst/Kane was a murderer. But Welles took the scene out of the finished script and film (although a line from Susan Alexander, that Raymond - Kane's butler - knows where all the bodies are buried, remains in the film to show what might have been in the film). Bogdanovith, a friend and fan of Welles' work, probably knew that in 2002 he could do a film on Ince's death and get away with it, and it would have been a blow against the millionaire publisher who hit back at Welles' career.
I have not seen any of the films based on Zodiac. Nor have I seen Spike Lee's, SUMMER OF SAM.
Best regards,
Jeff
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Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 147
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 5:37 pm: |
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Hi Jeff,
I have seen Summer of Sam and there's way too much Summer and not nearly enough Sam. It wouldn't rate very high on my true-crime film list.
As for Citizen Kane, I know Hearst tried to put the squelch on it even with its friendlier cut. It's a good film but it seems a little overrated to me.
I have heard the theory about Taylor being put down because he was trying to get the drugs out of Hollywood. A Mob hit of a sort.
Regarding the woman who confessed to killing Taylor, she was an actress who worked for both Taylor and Ince, oddly enough. It was actually a deathbed admission in 1964. I remembered seeing it discussed on a tape about the murder. Early in her career, she went by the name(s) Margarite or Margaret Gibson. When she changed studios they changed her name(s) to Patsy or Patricia Palmer. Her confession was somewhat rambling and it has its detracters. I haven't heard anywhere that she gave a motive but things from another Taylor disposal of a girlfriend to blackmail pertaining to drugs have been mentioned.
The theory about Paul Bern being offed as the result of the nutty corner of a triangle reminded me a little of some of the stories going around about another supposed suicide, that is, the shooting of George Reeves.
Best regards,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 668
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 7:13 pm: |
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Hi Stan,
It is always hard to seperate truth and fiction when dealing with a legend. The legend of "CITIZEN KANE" is that Hearst went ballistic (as he should have) about the film, and tried to destroy it. When RKO refused, he banned mentioning their films in his newspapers, and threatened to demolish the motion picture business if Welles flourished. Welles always mentioned that Hearst and his hireling Louella Parsons always were gunning for him afterwards, and that Hearst even considered framing Welles on a morals charge once. Well I can believe he was not liked by Hearst and his newspapers, but if Hearst had tried to do what he threatened he possibly would have had some problems of his own.
Newspapers (even powerful chains, like Hearst's) need advertising to thrive. He had resettled in the west coast, and he was threatening to do damage to one of the most profitable industries on the west coast. It might have seriously backfired, as much of the money in Hollywood was from east coast banks, who could easily have pulled out dozens of industries all over the country from advertising in Hearst newspapers. I suspect the threat was more for effect than for reality. Hearst wouldn't have wanted a confrontation with the American economy.
KANE is a great film (my favorite) but it is overrated because it has an historical importance, and (in Welles' odd career) a dynamic
all it's own. It took all of the best developements in motion pictures from 1895 through 1941 and incorporated them in the hands of a theatrical genius, who demonstrated how they could be taken into the next stage in story telling (sorry about the pretentious speech, but that is the simplest way I could think of putting it).
Everything in KANE had been used before, including the non-linear story telling, the ceiling-ed rooms, the characters' dialogue collisions (Howard Hawks had used it a year earlier in HIS GIRL FRIDAY). Even the plot, about the man who seems to have everything but has nothing in the end, was used a few years earlier by Preston Sturges in THE POWER AND THE GLORY. Welles himself claimed that his understanding of film cutting was from watching and rewatching John Ford's STAGECOACH. The elements gelled together, and KANE resulted.
In terms of Welles' own career, while he would make some films of great reputation (AMBERSOMS, LADY FROM SHANGHAI, OTHELLO, TOUCH OF EVIL, CHIMES AT MIDNIGHT) he never had the full control and power over any project again in his entire career (with OTHELLO he came close, but he lacked a studio backing him there - he had to finance the film and do all the production organization and work himself - and it took four years).
Had he not been targeted as a troublemaker (more than as a person that Hearst wanted hurt) his career probably would have been smoother, and he'd have made films that would make KANE seem more secondary than it currently seems. THE MAGNIFICENT AMBERSOMS would probably have pushed into the shade, if it had not been truncated and redone. But by doing that to Welles' work (and the new RKO executives who did that would be copied by other studio executives in the next two decades elsewhere) they guarranteed that KANE's remarkable achievement would shine more and more in retrospect compared to anything else the director created.
Enough about Welles, Hearst, and KANE. Except for one thing, tragically never followed up in the script. When Kane, Leland, and Bernstein take over the decrepid N.Y. Enquirer, we hear Kane pointing to a mystery in Brooklyn about a woman who disapeared (I think her name is Mrs. Silverstone). He tells Leland to send a reporter down to see the location and question the husband (Kane believes the woman was murdered), and pretend the reporter is a police detective. He instructs Leland that if Mr. Silverstone makes any problems the reporter should leave yelling that Silverstone is an anarchist. We never hear any other details. When Bernstein reminisces (later in the film) about the young woman he saw in the ferry boat on the Hudson, I keep wondering if it was Mrs. Silverstone.
Never heard of Margarite or Margaret Gibson or Patsy or Patricia Palmer. She must have been a small time supporting actor.
Reeves' death is like a reawakened mystery. For years it was generally accepted as a suicide, but in the last decade or so it has been reexamined. The general theory was that Reeves felt his career was ruined by his latching on to the "Superman" role. Actually that would have been hard to prove. Did you know he actually was one of the stars in FROM HERE TO ETERNITY, playing an army chaplin, but all his scenes were cut. I would really like to see those (if they exist) put back into the film.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 148
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 8:55 pm: |
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Hi Jeff,
There are some questions about Reeves' death but I think I'd still go with the suicide verdict. Being "typed" as Superman doesn't really sound like a good enough reason though. There was a biography program about him on TV and I believe they mentioned that he was cut out of From Here to Eternity. In fact, if I remember correctly, they showed him in a clip from the film.
I guess my problem with Citizen Kane is that I'd heard so much about it before I saw the film. It could have been twice as good as any other movie ever made and it wouldn't have lived up to expectations.
Of the Welles films you named, I'd have to say that Touch of Evil is my favorite; lots of sleazy characters including Charlton Heston playing against type. As far as staring roles go, I also like The Third Man.
I remember the latter being featured rather prominently in Heavenly Creatures, another very good true-crime film. If you haven't seen it, the movie is about two teenage girls who murdered one of the girls' mothers in New Zealand during 1954. Juliet Hulme and Pauline Parker were lesbian lovers but also had fixations on Mario Lanza and James Mason. They were, however, repelled by Welles. Both girls were convicted of killing Mrs. Parker. They have since been released from prison, changed their names and one is now a famous mystery writer.
I'd be hard pressed to name my favorite movie. I could probably think about it for a week and come up with one but then two days later I'd think of another I liked even better and so on. My favorite genres are suspense, mystery, noir and horror especially if true-crime is connected to any of those. I also like anything Hitchcock and some Sci-Fi. The movie I've watched the most times would probably be Rear Window.
As far as Patricia Palmer, formerly Margaret Gibson, goes, IMDb says that she was in 78 films from 1913-1929. Her career ended when sound came in but I don't believe that had anything to do with it. The Trivia section on her IMDb page says that she was the mother of Debra Paget. It also mentions that she "Reportedly confessed to murdering William Desmond Taylor on her deathbed." She was also involved in some sort of blackmail scheme right after Taylor's death.
Best regards,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 670
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 10:05 pm: |
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Hi Stan,
I like TOUCH OF EVIL too, because of the ambiguities of Quinlan's character. Nobody likes a corrupt cop, but Quinlan usually is on the money in guessing who the guilty party is and usually only goes about framing them when the evidence is "wobbly". That at least is Menzies' defense of their actions (we, of course, can't tell how often Quinlan's brilliant hunches are based on prejudices or personal dislikes). As it turns out, the fellow he frames in the movie actually confesses at the end. But did the defendant confess under duress or out of a realization he was caught? We can't be sure. There is a moment in the film when Gus Schilling plays a construction worker at the Linnekar business who was sent to prison by Detective Quinlan. Momentarily he is suspected because the dynamite that killed Linnekar came from that site, and he has a record. Schilling's looks of hatred at Welles/Quinlan suggest more about the reality of his personal campaign at "evening the evidence playing field" for the police than anything that Calleia/Menzies says.
I have to admit my three favorite characters in the film are Akim Tamiroff's ridiculous crime boss, Grandi, Dennis Weaver's hotel clerk (with some clear emotional problems), and Mercedes MacCambridge's bull dyke gang leader. It is a weird set of characters.
I think Pauline Parker is Anne Perry. She actually wrote an article last year in an issue of the Ripperologist. I haven't seen HEAVENLY CREATURES.
I like REAR WINDOW, because of the elaborate set and the way Steward, Kelly, and Thelma Ritter end up getting tangled in so many lives in that courtyard. Also (I think this) the role of Thorwald along with the role of the prosecutor in A PLACE IN THE SUN were the two big ones in the movie career of Raymond Burr, and led to his getting cast as "Perry Mason".
I will have to take a look at Patricia Palmer's career on the IMDB board. I just know nothing about her (except what you have mentioned).
Best regards,
Jeff
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Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 150
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 01, 2005 - 8:11 pm: |
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Hi Jeff,
Yes, Perry was the convict. There are crimes I have difficulty forgiving.
I saw today that they disinterred Emmett Till; not sure what they're looking for after half a century. A couple of years ago, I made a minor contribution to Ripperana regarding the case which some think was the inspiration for Bobby Gentry's song Ode to Billy Joe. The murder is described as a lynching but not by the usual standards. His killers went to extreme efforts to hide the body, something not done in lynching because the object of the crime is to make an example of the victim.
Probably, one of the things I like most about Rear Window is the sort of surreal look of the huge sound stage. Like you, it's also interesting to watch how Mr. Jefferies draws Lisa and Stella into his suspicions. Only one scene was shot off of the set and it was cut out of the film.
I saw the movie with my parents at the theater when it first came out. Before TV, we used to go to as many a ten films a week. Now, I have the DVD. I thought I remembered Thorwald killing his wife on screen but I guess I was recalling his tussle with Miss Fremont when he caught her in his apartment. An example of false memory?
The trailers on the DVD are kind of interesting. In them, Stewart has dark hair and some of the neighbors, to me, appear to be played by different actors than in the movie. Also, regarding L.B.'s pet names for his neighbors, the woman living below Miss Torso is called Miss Hearing Aid; a name Stewart, nor anyone else, ever utters in the film.
You're probably right that the movie enhanced Raymond Burr's career. Surprisingly, that ghastly Godzilla didn't undo it all. I'm a fan of B Sci-Fi but that wasn't even a B-.
In my view, Hitchcock peaked in the 40s and 50s. Psycho, although a very good film, is the slight beginning of the decline. He did, however, shoot it as a low budget experiment so perhaps you'd have to give him a pass just that once.
Best wishes,
Stan
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 673
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 01, 2005 - 9:31 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I have a book, A DEATH IN THE DELTA, about Emmett's miserable end. I still haven't read it. One of many books I got that I have to plow through. I think they are hoping to find something like DNA for possibly looking over the old evidence (it's just a vague guess, I really can't see what they are going to be able to do - but after finally getting Medgar Evars' killer, and several others, they want to try to avenge Emmett).
From what I understand, Ms Perry is the luckier of the two girlfriend killers. It wasn't her mother who was killed, but the other girl's mother. The other girl (once out of prison) was basically cold-shouldered by her family. Perry did not have to worry about that.
By the way, you mentioned on the thread about Charles Peace, that you saw that 1949 film. I have never seen it. As for that early film (c. 1905) it does still exist. I have seen scenes of it shown on some early movie television documentaries. In one of the scenes Peace is dressed as a clergyman, and misdirecting the police when they ask if he saw the burglar. As the bobbies run off, Peace, holding a bible like he is reading it, thumbs his nose at them.
GODZILLA seems to have a life of it's own. How many remakes and sequels have the Japanese made (one of the remakes had Burr reprising his role as the American newsman - he apparently got a kick out of it). On the Nickelodean kids cartoon, RUG RATS, they spoof Godzilla with a character called REPTAR.
Thorwald is never seen killing his wife. Steward falls off into a fitful sleep in one sequence, and then is awakened by a piercing female scream (interesting problem - why is he the only one who heard it? - obviously because he is the central figure in the film, but realistically it doesn't fully make sense).
Subsequently he gradually zeroes in on Thorwald as most likely responsible for the disappearance of his wife, who must have been the screamer.
I never got the DVD on REAR WINDOW. I have it on video (formatted, unfortunately). I do have VERTICO on a special video in "letterbox" style.
I still think REAR WINDOW a better film, although VERTICO is more highly regarded by Hitchcock fans.
After PSYCHO Hitch did do the interesting THE BIRDS. The only film he made after that I liked at all was FRENZY (I never saw FAMILY PLOT). TOPAZ and the Paul Newman spy film were pretty mediocre. However, I also did not care for THE TROUBLE WITH HARRY, which many Hitchcock fans think is great. I found it a forced joke after awhile. PSYCHO, for a low budget experiment, is very impressive - but it's hard to imagine how a big budget would have improved it.
Best wishes,
Jeff
|
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 151
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 8:25 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
This morning's paper said that Till is being exhumed to do an autopsy, which was not done at the time, and to do a DNA test on the remains because there have been assertions that the body wasn't actually his. The two men who later confessed to the murder are dead and couldn't be tried anyway because they were already acquitted in a trial. I've heard there may have been others involved but I think the only one left alive is an elderly black man who probably did so under threat of dyer consequences. Not sure they'd have much chance of convicting someone like that.
Yes, I was fairly sure that Perry's mom was not the one killed. In fact, I think the name Perry might have come from her mom's lover or perhaps second husband. The film seems to indicate that she was the leader of the two. It also shows her initiating the attack by raining blows onto poor victim's head with the brick in the sock.
That 1905 film about Charles Peace sounds like it might be quite accurate right down to his acrobatic escape from the train. The reason I assumed that it no longer existed in its entirety was because IMDb does not list a running time.
Last night, I watched The Stranger, which is the only Welles' film I have on DVD. It's amazing to realize the change in his appearance during the twelve year interim until Touch of Evil.
Regarding Burr in the Godzilla films, it always looked to me as if his scenes might have been inserted later for the American audience. Perhaps I'm wrong but they look kind of incongruous to me.
Yes, I know now the murder in Rear Window is signified by a scream and the sound of breaking glass. After not seeing it for 37 years, my memory was a little diminished. The main thing that always bothered me about the film is the lack of lightning with the thunder. Funny they'd have missed that.
I think Vertigo would rank way down on my list of Hitchcock movies. One of my favorites is Dial M for Murder. I would love to see it in its original unreleased 3-D format. A woman once told me that a print in that form still exists and that she'd viewed it.
You're right, The Birds is an interesting film. I've always maintaned that it is actually a Science Fiction film, much to the horror of everyone I tell that to.
Topaz and The Trouble with Harry are good but, sadly, Family Plot isn't. I once saw that Hitchcock was working on another interesting film before his death but I don't remember its name, that is, if it had one.
I saw Frenzy at the theater with my ex-wife when I was married. It is pretty good and is said to be based on the "Jack the Stripper" case. The similarities are quite vague but I'd say it's more like that case than Psycho is like Ed Gein.
Best regards,
Stan
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 674
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 9:11 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
Some years before he died Raymond Burr was talking about his film and television career, and he suggested (probably a bit facesciously) that if he could he would have liked to have tried to play Mason hired by some prison reform group to fight for the appeal of Thorwald. Burr would have played both Perry and Lars. The thing he pointed out in the interview was that nobody ever saw how Mrs. Thorwald died, and (he claimed) Perry might prove it was an accident. However, I seem to recall that Thorwald is said to be confessing as the movie ends (he mentions to Wendell Corey's police where the head is, and when one offers to show it to Thelma Ritter, queezily she passes on the offer). So I guess Burr was just having a small joke.
The best things about THE TROUBLE WITH HARRY (for me) were the photography of the New England Autumn leaves, and the odd little speech John Forsythe gives when Parker Fenelly buys his pictures. The latter seemed out of place in the film, but it was somewhat poetic. But the film should have been shorter to be effective.
TOPAZ did have one interesting point to make, and that was how many small people on both sides were smashed by the scandal. The conclusion, when Hitchcock just shows the bodies of various people executed in Russia, Cuba, France who were either traitors to their official governments or betrayed by those they trusted. I think Hitch was making a point of how most of us are really just pawns in international games of diplomacy or spying. It is like Leo G. Carroll's comment at the start of NORTH BY NORTHWEST that Cary Grant is on his own because it is useful for James Mason to believe he is the C.I.A. agent.
I did see one scene from FAMILY PLOT, but it only interested me because one of the millionaires who is victimized by the villains was played by the actor who played "Coach" Ernie Mancuso on "CHEERS".
I have seen the 3-D DIAL "M" FOR MURDER on television once - it had some good effects. When Lesgate is stabbed while trying to strangle Mrs. Wendice, the 3 D effect is well used when Lesgate falls backwards driving the scissor deeper into his back.
The best part of FRENZY was the business about the Chief Inspector and his wife, with the poor woman trying to learn continental cooking (which her poor husband tried to eat but really couldn't). The scene with the body in the truck full of potatos, pursued by the killer was a good sequence too.
The physical change in Welles first appears in CONFIDENTIAL REPORT, when he starts filling out. I have heard he had some illness that started his weight gain, but his intake of food probably really pushed it along. He was still quite good looking in OTHELLO.
Not much to add regarding Perry. So far, she is the only murderer who has turned that talent into a literary career in fiction (a few wrote fact based books). I just wonder if (like Agatha Christie) she will ever get official recognition - not a Damehood, but a O.B.E. or something like that.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 152
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 6:53 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Given her past, I'd be surprised if Perry ever got an O.B.E. I should think that would cause an uproar.
She is probably the only killer who turned that fact into fiction as a writer. The only "maybe-sort-of" that came to my mind was the assertion that Edgar Alan Poe might have killed Mary Rogers in 1841 and then wrote about it in The Mystery of Marie Roget. Of course, most killers before the middle of the twentieth century never got the chance to have a second career because they were executed.
I agree about the scenes in Frenzy where the Inspector is subjected to those wretched meals served to him by his well meaning wife. They give the film a little comic relief in spots.
At the end of Rear Window, the cop does say that Thorwald is going to 'take them on a tour of the East River' (to look for body parts being the implication) and that something that was buried in the garden is now in a hat box in his apartment. I guess if Raymond Burr was serious about his project, he could construct a scenario where Thorwald accidentally killed Anna and disposed of the body because he was afraid of being accused of her murder. Since you hear her scream, then shout what sounds like 'NO!' and then hear the sound of glass breaking, it's hard to imagine what kind of accident it could have been.
Also, even if Mason could save Thorwald from the electric chair, you still have the other crimes associated with concealing the death, cutting up the body and then dumping it, not to mention killing the neighbors dog. Most importantly, however, you have the assault and attempted murder of Jeffries. I'd think that this tally would result in a sentence that would make it unlikely that a man of Thorwald's age would ever get out of prison.
Have you seen the TV remake of the movie starring Christopher Reeve? Nowhere near the original, you see, but not all bad.
Several years ago, I taped Hondo for my archives. It's the only color 3-D movie I've seen on TV. The extra dimension was marginal in this example.
In Dial "M" for Murder, I'd think the scene where Kelly is reaching back over her head for the scissors as the killer has her pinned down on the desk would look good in 3-D. The shot where they are pushed deeper into his back is pretty graphic for 1954.
I'm waiting for someone to develop a way to digitally separate the two 3-D images so that they can be shown alteranately on 60 frame/second progressive scan TV which would be viewed though some sort of synchronized LCD glasses. They might have to work out the problem of what is, in finality, a 24 frame/second movie shown in 30 frame/second. That seems to work out OK on regular interlace scan TV, though, even with a 12 frame/second animated film. If it would have been shot in 30 frame/second Todd AO, that would be perfect but I don't think that was fully developed yet.
Best wishes,
Stan
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 675
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 9:37 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I suspect Burr was having a bit of fun about Mason defending Thorwald (perhaps asking Robert Ironside to investigate). There is also a side issue about the lady (whom we never see in the film) who is Thorwald's girlfriend, and who is impersonating Mrs. Thorwald. She would have to be explained away. So would the fact that Mrs. Thorwald's jewelry was so nicely protected by him after the "accident" occurred.
The Christopher Reeve film is actually interesting on it's own merits. There has always been a slight (I'd say very slight) element of sympathy for Thorwald because his plot comes acropper due to his being the victim of a peeping tom (Jeffries). Thorwald was something of a loner. When one neighbor tries to start a conversation with him about planting bushes and flowers, Thorwald tries to ignore her, and finally tells her to shut up. And he does poison Frank Cady's dog (oddly enough the most tragic moment in the movie - not the death of the barely known Mrs. Thorwald). He also nearly throttles Grace Kelly, but then she is caught in his apartment as an intruder. He's quite unlikeable. But he has a veneer of repectability.
The villain in Reeve's version is a younger man, who is not only violent with his girlfriend, but is perfectly willing to invade anyone's apartment if he feels his own interest is involved. He invades the apartment of a gay couple (I believe they were gay), who he confronts as the people who have sent him the cryptic notes about the murder/disappearance.
He is also far more sadistic than Thorwald was. Thorwald just wants to get back at Jeffries for being a peeping Tom by throwing him out the window. This guy disconnects Reeve's air hose, or thinks he does, so Reeve can take some time dying.
The most interesting thing about Reeve's version is that his physical condition added concern for his position. Jimmy Stewart had a broken leg - bad enough, but he could move about a bit, and he could yell (as he does). And in the conclusion of his version, I thought it was far more thrilling in its way than Hitch's. Is it a better film? I leave that to the viewer.
There is a film starring Robert Ryan and Rhonda Fleming (I think it's Fleming) called INFERNO, about a scheming wife and her lover leaving an ill-tempered millionaire (Ryan) who is crippled in the desert to die. I saw it late on television (alas, not in 3D) back in the 1970s, and it was very exciting. It used 3D to enhance the shots of the desert vistas, which improved the sense of difficulties facing Ryan in his quest for survival. If you can catch it try to do so. It is a wonderful film on it's own merits.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 153
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, June 04, 2005 - 6:04 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
The name Inferno sounds familiar but I don't believe I've seen it. Shall try to track it down.
A glimpse of Thorwald's girlfriend is shown leaving his apartment with him on the morning of the murder. Jefferies has just dozed off and misses it.
My favorite part of the movie when I was seven-years-old was Jefferies defending himself with a tool of his trade. I still like that part so I guess I haven't advanced too much.
I agree that Reeve makes a more pathetic victim. In the original film, I know that Jefferies' first broken leg was caused when he was hit by a crashing racing car but is the cause of the Reeve character's handicap explained in the other movie? I've only seen it once some time ago and don't remember if it was explained.
On IMDb, I see that the movie was first remade as Hou chuang in Hong Kong a year after the original. Haven't seen that version and likely never will. Might be interesting.
In today's paper, I saw that Karla Homolka was released from prison. I guess after ten years they figured she'd suffered enough for what could be described as serial child killing! What on Earth are they thinking up there?
There's supposed to be a movie released this year about the case entitled Deadly. IMDb says it's in post production and is due out after Karla is freed.
Best regards,
Stan
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 677
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 04, 2005 - 10:14 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
Well Edmund Pearson was critical about the 1891 release of Dr. Neill Cream from Joliet for poisoning Mr. Stott. He had served only 10 years of a life sentence. So this kind of judicial wishywashiness is not unknown. I only hope that (with Ms Homolka) it does not result in a series of additional murders, as it did with Cream.
Jeffreys had photographed the sports car disaster and won some prize for his picture, but we can tell that he got injured as a result. I sort of like the conclusion of the film where, thanks to Thorwald's attack, Jeff now has two broken legs!
Have you ever read anything by Cornell Woolrich. Last summer I read a collections of his short stories, and he's quite good - but very bleak. I wonder if the story of REAR WINDOW ends with Jeff surviving under the care of his girlfriend.
To me though, the best story of Woolrich's that got into a film was THE NIGHT HAS A THOUSAND EYES with Eddie Robinson, John Lund, Gail Russell, and William Demerest. It really is one of the best films suggesting E.S.P. is a reality, and it's conclusion I find almost Shakespearean in construction and denoument.
As for the photobulb conclusion of REAR WINDOW, there is a nice little thriller with Van Johnson called 23 PACES TO BAKER STREET, in which Johnson is a blind playwrite who stumbles onto a kidnap plot. Because it is based on what he has overheard, it resembles the plot of THE LIST OF ADRIAN MESSENGER, but the conclusion (if you haven't seen it) does with sound what the conclusion of REAR WINDOW does with flash - light effects.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 155
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, June 05, 2005 - 7:26 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Yes, we know Jefferies was hurt at the auto race because that's what his boss refers to when they are discussing his predicament on the phone at the beginning of the film. This was the only scene originally shot off set but Hitchcock decided to leave it out and just go with the Gunnessen's voice.
I haven't read any Cornell Woolrich. As I recall, an extra on the DVD says there were some significant differences in the movie and It Had to be Murder; most notably the lack of a love interest for the main character.
On a side note, I see that they're remaking Strangers on a Train for a 2006 release date. Don't see how the original can be topped or even equaled.
I also see that a film is being made where Ben Affleck stars as George Reeves. The movie is about his death case and is entitled Truth, Justice, and the American Way. It is also scheduled to be out in 2006 and stars Diane Lane as Toni Mannix.
Regarding Neill Cream's (or his double's) early release, I always wondered if there wasn't some sort of fix put in for him. I had a grand-uncle who became a prison guard in Joliet about six years after Cream left. My mom and dad have some art and craft type things that some of the prisoners were encouraged to make as way to keep them busy. Sadly, I have not been able to find any names on them. I think it would be pretty safe to say that none of them were made by Cream but I wonder if there isn't some of his craft work out there somewhere. What a find that would be.
Best wishes,
Stan
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 685
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 8:47 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I am having trouble tonight posting. However, I just want to say that I am writing an essay on Cream, which I hope will be published soon.
Hope this small message gets through,
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 688
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 9:33 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I seem to be back on track with the postings again.
I read a reviewer's copy of a collection of short stories by Woolrich. He has a very bleak outlook on life (he was, in truth, a pathological recluse). But his fiction was written for the period from 1939 through 1960. His cops are fully ready to bend all rules to get the criminals (in ways that make Eastwood's "Dirty Harry" look like a member of the A.C.L.U.). In one story, in order to get a cop killer another cop turns in his badge, keeps pursuing the criminal until the latter makes the mistake of getting use to the cop, and then encourages the criminal to commit a second murder (for which the criminal is arrested).
I am trying to imagine what kind of arts and crafts item Neill Cream would have made. A do it yourself abortion kit? A handy dandy chemistry lab? I can't see him making a model boat or chess/checkers set.
I wonder if the new version of STRANGERS ON A TRAIN will stick closer to Patricia Highsmith's novel. Apparently Guy and Bruno actually become much closer in the novel than Hitchcock would suggest in his film. But for me, there will only always be one Bruno, and that is the late Robert Walker.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 159
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 7:44 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Maybe Cream might have made a set of wooden measuring spoons or some decorative pill boxes.
It looks like Woolrich's stories were quite to the dark side. He sounds a little like a James Ellroy of his period.
Regarding Strangers on a Train, no, I haven't read Patricia Highsmith's novel of the same name and I wholeheartedly agree that no one will top Robert Walker for the role of Bruno. From what I understand, he was a morbid alcoholic and destroyed himself with the substance; a pity.
Did you see the 1996 TV movie version of the story entitled Once You Meet a Stranger? I don't believe I did and if so I must have found it totally forgettable.
Best wishes,
Stan
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 689
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 8:35 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
Yes, I am aware that Walker was a terrible drinker - especially after his divorce from Jennifer Jones. But his death had to do with some foul-up with an operation he was getting. I'm not sure exactly what. At least it was the official story.
Never heard of Once You Meet A Stranger. It sounds like a good title, but that is no proof that the film is any good.
Thinking about Cream, how about a doll that looks like him, holding the pill box, with a pull string. You pull it and it says things like, "Take one of these, and try to call me in the morning!" A more sophisticated version would have him say "Chapman was an amateur", or "Who remembers Bury?"
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 162
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 6:20 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Regarding Once You Meet a Stranger, I remember hearing something of it when they were about to broadcast the program but I didn't feel any pressing need to see it. In fact, I didn't even recall the name of the show until I saw it in IMDb.
As far as Cream making a talking doll is concerned, I believe that Edison came out with a talking doll about that time. I'm not sure how it was turned on but it had a small record player inside. From what I've heard, these toys weren't too reliable. My parent's don't have any prisoner made dolls but they have an artfully done item of doll house furniture manufactured at "Joliet Inc.".
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 691
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 8:17 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
When I visited Edison's labs at West Orange, N.J. twenty years ago they had one of those talking dolls he invented. Lovely porcelain dolls, but the voice was none-to-convincing. But the prototype for the "Chatty Kathy" and other talking dolls had to start somewhere.
He made a number of odd inventions that were not fully successful or partly successful. He actually invented the prefabricated house. Made of his own cement, you purchase a "kit" of molds for the walls, stairs, etc., and it actually could make a full house. Several are still in existance in New Jersey. The idea had considerable merit, but he got carried away with it. He also made molds for prefabricated cement furniture! The public's interest turned into a massive laugh. Cartoons showed dozens of people pulling cement sofas and beds into place. So the original idea was laughed into oblivion.
Another one of his ideas that did not pan out dealt with coal mining. He felt that he could build huge crushing machines that could take rock and get the coal out of it economically faster. It didn't work out that way, and he lost over two million dollars trying to prove it would work.
He also experimented with golden rod (at the end of his life) as a possible rubber substitute. Then there was his attempt to perfect an electric car engine. At West Orange is a 1917 Ford that Edison did get to go at about twenty five miles an hour. It is a truck, and there are eight storage batteries (about the size of a modern car battery) in the back where the truck usually has it's goods in. They take up half the back. All this proved was that given his technology, he could not replace the gasoline car motor his friend Ford perfected. What Tesla might have done is another matter. I have always been fascinated by the work of Nicola Tesla (who was far more interesting as a person and as an inventor than Edison). I suspect Tesla might have done something interesting with batteries working on some alternating current system.
Joliet Prison was full of interesting people besides Cream. The British anti-Fenian spy, "Major Henri Le Caron"/Thomas Beach, got a position in Joliet about the same time Cream was in the prison - he got it through his connections as a member of the American Fenian group, using their political clout.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 164
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 6:28 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
In Illinois, the main thing Joliet is known for is the second home for Chicago mobsters. Whenever I mention anything to anyone around here about Cream being there, all I get is a big blank stare.
Back in the mid-70s there was a handwriting expert who was asserting that Cream's writing matched that of some of the JTR letters. Have you heard that theory or know what happened to it?
I remember seeing a TV show about Edison's concrete form houses and it didn't look like a bad idea. There were only about a half dozen made and I think they are all in one small area.
My oldest son is an electrical engineer and he wrote his Masters thesis about the electric car he and some classmates built. I believe they pretty much ran into the same obstacles that Edison did.
Probably the most interesting story regarding Edison is his rivalry with George Westinghouse and the attempt to push his inferior DC current system. And most interesting of all, is his promotion of the electric chair to show that AC was unsafe.
William Kemmler, who hacked his g/f to death, had to be the first to make a demonstration run in 1890. The spectacle so horrified reporters that they referred to it as a high tech burning at the stake.
Best wishes,
Stan
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 692
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 8:38 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
From what I understand about Kemmler's demise, the electrodes were not properly put on him somehow, so he was literally cooked to death. It was a hideous execution, and (ironically enough) it was attended by more news reporters than most of these usually were. One who attended was Richard Harding Davis, the future war correspondent.
What you heard about the small number of concrete houses is true - and they still seem to serve their purposes as abodes quite well. It was a good idea, but the business about concrete furniture just killed it (Edison included a concrete gramaphone as well, naturally).
The theory about Cream's handwriting (which vaguely looks like that on some of the letters) was pushed in the late 1970s, but never really taken seriously. Just looking at the controversies about who wrote those letters to the police and newspapers - which are fully aired on this website - you can see that even if you were to prove Cream wrote any of them, you still would have to prove the author was Jack the Ripper.
The best thing about the developement of electric cars is the new attempts at "hybrid" forms that either include some gas engine or solar energy with the electricity. Unless a much more powerful electric battery, which is also lighter than those currently in use, is found we are not going to have a practical electric car that can compete with current gasoline powered cars.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 167
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 6:59 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Yes, not only would we not know if Cream was the Ripper even had he written the letters, we'd also have to ask if it was him or his supposed double. Was Cream in London while his double was in Joliet or the opposite?
As for Kemmler's execution, maybe they hadn't figured out how to use the wet sponges yet. I also read that the current was at 1000 volts. Perhaps that was a little low since they usually run 1500-2000 today at about one ampere current and at something like 50-60 cycles/second. I haven't seen what current or AC cycles were run into Kemmler. The cycles/second could have been another problem because if they are too fast the skin effect comes into play. That is, the current passes over the skin of the body without passing throught it.
Regarding other hideous executions, it's hard to top the hangings where the drop height was set too long. "Black Jack" Ketchum was probably the most famous criminal to have his head torn off as a result but he was by no means the only one to suffer this fate.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 693
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 11:45 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I bought Steward Evans book about Berry the execution. Berry tore heads off Robin Goodale in 1885 and John Conway in 1891 (this last botched job effectively ended Berry's career). But, if memory serves me, Ketchum had the ironic misfortune of signaling the hangman by saying, "Let 'er rip!". If he had a moment or two of conciousness after the accident (mercifully very brief), he must have realized the hideousness of the irony of that statement.
In Berry's case, he normally went out of his way to do everything as carefully as his predecessor Marwood did. But Berry also bungled the execution of John Lee in 1885, who became "the man they could not hang." However, he did not do what Marwood is reputed to have done in one execution in 1882. The latter went to Ireland to execute several members of a family accused of a massacre murder at Maatrasna. One of them, Myles Joyce, could not speak or understand English. He could not understand what Marwood was telling him to do on the scaffold (where to stand, how to stand). In a burst of anger, Marwood kicked Joyce into the pit when the rope was around his neck. This story was not in John Laurence's THE HISTORY OF CAPITAL PUNISHMENT (although he notes the hatred of Marwood by Fenians, and rumors that they poisoned him), but (unfortunately for Marwood's reputation) Myles had a distant cousin who recalled the incident and wrote about it in an essay. His name was James Joyce.
There is nothing good to say about Kemmler's demise, except that if there had to be horrendous electrocution it might as well have been the first.
Best wishes,
Jeff
|
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 169
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 6:19 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I'm wondering when the last botched hanging was. I know the Canadians tore Thomasina Sarao's head off in 1935 while hanging her for killing her husband. The hangman must have made the mistake of believing a woman when she told him her weight. Just kidding!
Ketchum being hanged for something other than homicide also makes me wonder, who was the last person in the Western World to be executed for a crime other than murder? I remember the Rosenbergs when I was a kid but the last I can think of is Chessman in 1960. My eighth grade English teacher was a crusader to save him in our class and he was pretty bummed when Chessman was executed. I seem to recall some black men who were condemned to death in the south for rape at about the same time but I don't remember if the sentences were carried out.
As for Ketchum possibly briefly remaining conscious after his head was ripped off, I know the French did some experiments in that regard after some convicts were guillotined. The most notable was Henri Languille in 1905 and he reportedly showed definite signs of response when the executioner yelled at him while holding his head. I would tend to think that Ketchum probably was not conscious after his mishap because tearing a head off would be much more traumatic than slicing one off.
On that cheery note, best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 695
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 9:36 pm: |
|
Hi Stan
I have tried to think of any major American or Western executions on non-murder crimes since Caryl Chessman's case. As a matter of fact, the world wide outcry against Chessman's execution may have caused the suspension of such punishments in any non-murder cases afterwards.
The worst punishment in any western jurisdiction for non-murder crimes is the use of castration (by chemical means) in some rape crimes. But even that meets with some opposition.
As for the Rosenbergs, I have often wondered why no further executions occurred of traitors. I think it was tied to a reaction to the overreaction against the Rosenbergs during the early Cold War/"McCarthy Era" (remember that one of the prosecutors was Roy Cohen). We've had several major spy or treason cases, like Ames for example, and they resulted in heavy prison sentences.
I have a book, GUILLOUTINE, ITS LEGEND AND LORE by Daniel Gerould (New York: Blast Books, 1992). It mentions the experiment with
Languille, but it mentions one in 1882 on a rapist murderer named Louis Menesclou. Menesclou's head was given some transfused blood from a dog, and briefly showed motion of the lips and eyes. It does suggest that some life remains after beheading.
The same, by the way, is true with hanging victims (at least prior to the modern method of hanging, which dislocates the vertebrae). In 1803 a murderer named George Foster was hanged for killing his wife and children. At the time Europeans were noticing the experiments of Count Alexander Volta with electric circuits. Someone somehow connected electric circuits to Foster's nerves, causing his hand to quiver a bit.
Before leaving guillotining I remember one other famous case of a head displaying life after the blade fell. In 1793, when Charlotte Corday was executed for stabbing Marat to death, the executioner (Samson?) slapped her face. It blushed to the shock of the crowd.
On that odd note, best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 170
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 6:19 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Yes, I'd heard that about Corday. I have a print of Jacques-Louis David's Death of Marat displayed right above my computer.
As far as "living" beyond the hangman's drop, I've seen records of the heartbeat checks after the trap was sprung and it sometimes continues for about half an hour. An issue of that fact was raised in the movie In Cold Blood.
Regarding opposition to chemical "castration", they were still practicing surgical castration in Canada at least into the 1950s from what I understand and maybe even later. I also know that the NAZIs castrated Bruno Ludke before they let him go. The procedure made no difference to him. He went right on raping and murdering women just like before. They finally gave up and finished him off with an injection of Typhus.
I remember seeing the Rosenbergs during their trial and appeals in movie newsreels when I was a child. When I asked my mom what they did, she said, 'They gave the Russians the atomic bomb.' That sounded like a good enough reason for the death penalty to me at the time. Now, I think maybe Julius deserved it but perhaps Ethel did not.
As far as I'm concerned, Ames definitely should have been sentenced to death. He committed murder by proxy when he gave away our spies to the Soviet Union which got them all killed. In addition to that, he also put the life of every American at greater risk.
Best wishes,
Stan
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 696
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 6:57 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
The business about the Nazis and Ludke surprises me a little bit. Perhaps in someway Ludke was considered unusable to them, but I am aware that certain criminals were able to get jobs in the SS or other Nazi organizations. Hans Grans, the partner and lover of Fritz Haarmann (and the one who eventually gave testimony against Haarman at their trial) got a job as a guard at one of the death camps in World War II. Ludke may have never thought of joining the party or tried joining it when too late. He then made the second mistake of continuing his crimes after he was originally caught and punished. I hope he enjoyed being a medical guinea pig.
The last time I heard of a chemical castration case in this country was in Texas (surprise, surprise!), for a convicted rapist. The man actually agreed to it rather than a longer jail sentence. However, the law required that it be supervised by a registered doctor. No doctor was willing to do it. The convict was regretfully told he would have to take the longer prison sentence after all.
Oddly enough, I was under the impression that Ethel may have been the little engine that could of the pair - that she egged on Julius to do his espionage work. Possibly. Every few years some new dribblet of information comes out, that their spy discoveries helped the Russians, that their spy discoveries were not needed by the Russians. With all the information, disinformation, and doubletalk by involved parties out to save themselves (paging Ethel's brother), I don't think we'll ever know the full tale.
[Being Jewish, I have sometimes thought that the executions of two Jews shows some degree of anti-Semitism at work. It does, but Judge Saypol (the trial judge) was Jewish, as was Cohen. My guess is that if the last name of the two had been Baxter, Brown, Fesseden, or Peters, it wouldn't have mattered given the degree of paranoia in the country at the time. Had the trial occurred in 1958 or 1964, they would have been sentenced to life imprisonment.
Ames was a totally greedy scumbag (sorry about that term, but it fits him), looking to make as much profit as he could from his sensitive position. I don't recall if the Rosenbergs got paid for their spying - I believe they were naive about helping the Communist cause. But Ames certainly got paid. He was lucky that there was no death penalty facing him when he was caught.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 171
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 9:08 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
The latest rendition of the Rosenberg case I saw reduced Ethel's involvement down to not much more than typing some letters. I saw her brother on TV not too long ago and he pretty much stood by his actions. As I recall, he's changed his name.
I've always wondered why they came down so hard on the Rosenbergs and not on the others involved in the ring, some of whom seemed as guilty if not more so. Not only did none of them get the death penalty, none even got a life term.
It is a wonder the NAZIs couldn't press Ludke into some sort of service. He must have been too much of a rogue even for them.
They had Sonderkommando Dirlewanger's death squad unit that was mostly made up of released psychopaths. It's hard to imagine how they kept control of a gang of maniacs like that. One would think they couldn't distinguish between killing each other and carrying out their mission.
Best wishes,
Stan
(Message edited by Sreid on June 12, 2005) |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 698
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 13, 2005 - 8:36 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
Leave it to the Nazis to create a commando death squad made of psychopaths. And the Americans think that only we would have had a "Dirty Dozen" squad. The difference is that we apparently only thought of it for a movie about World War II. They actually used the idea in World War II.
As for the Rosenbergs, as I said the information keeps changing about their roles in the spy business. The Russian archives claim they really did not have a major effect on the atomic bomb developement, but this could be a cover-up, or it may be an attempt to hide Russia's comparative slow atomic warfare project in comparison to Americas.
Ethel's brother can say what he wants, but if he really is not ashamed of what he did - why did he change his name?
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 174
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - 7:33 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
It looks like Hans Grans traded in one sociopathic boss for another. Do you know when he died?
David Greenglass might have changed his name because he feared some type of reprisal but I would suspect shame was also a factor. I don't see how his family could have any regard for him.
To me, the most intriguing spy ring was the Cambridge 4/5, that is, Philby, Burgess, Maclean, Blunt and the mysterious fifth man. The general consensus is the he was John Cairncross but a book came out about ten years ago pointing the finger at Victor Rothchild and the trail hasn't stopped with them. There may be a sixth, seventh, eighth and nineth man!
Last night, I was continuing my plod through all the movies on IMDb and found a 2000 film called BTK which stood for Born to Kast. One of the characters in the movie was named Killman which was the name the BTKiller used on the return address of some of his recent letters, in all, "Bill Thomas Killman". I guess Dennis Rader must have been a fan of French Short-Subject movies.
He was home free he blew it. I hope he gets the attention he so craved now and then some.
Best wishes,
Stan
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 699
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - 8:26 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I never heard when Grans died - I only know that it was too late. He should have shared the block that his ex-boyfriend got in 1925. He probably is dead by now.
Greenglass is probably in the same position with his family as Anne Perry's former friend/lover is regarding their murder victim. Both Greenglass and Perry's friend destroyed a close relative. Therefore they are personas non grata with their surviving relatives.
I really have not paid much attention to the Cambridge spy circle, but I tend to doubt it got as high as eight or nine members. Given the need for secrecy in such groups, the more members the worst the chances of keeping their identities secret for long. As it was four revealed their duplicity by 1979, and the fifth man (Blunt) was revealed and disgrace. If there were others, they must have played a minor role.
My favorite bit of business from this was how Burgess and McLean and then Philby ran off to Moscow, to suddenly have smaller posts there than when they were in England. Burgess and McLean were pretty bored by this, but stuck. Philby seemed to enjoy his notoriety with visitors, but he was given a smidge more important job as a spy teacher. None were given jobs of real importance, because none of them were trusted.
I can't see Rader as a fan of French movies - his image is too middle american.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 175
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 5:22 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I wasn't seriously suggesting that Dennis Rader was a fan of Francois cinema petite. Being the egotist that he was, I'd expect that he Googled BTK, got a hit on that movie, saw the character Killman and decided to incorporate it in his mailings as a sort of private joke. Before he was caught, I wondered if the murderer was a film noir fan because the 1947 classic Born to Kill is sometimes referred to as BTK for short.
Regarding the Cambridge spies, I think the ones who defected wound up interred in the Kremlin Wall. Philby's image was put on a Soviet stamp as well but I'm not sure if the others were accorded that "honor".
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 700
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 9:02 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
Not much to add tonight. I have finished an article I'm forwarding to Dan Norder on Dr. Cream.
As for Philby's picture on a stamp, I just wonder if the stamp was issued when he was alive or just after his death. In the U.S. the subject of a stamp has to have died, but I don't know about Russia/the Soviet Union. In any case, I have always had a slight suspicion about the timing of Philby's demise in the 1980s. He died as Gorbachev's "glastnost" was beginning. I often have wondered if Philby realized that as Gorbachev was making overtures to the West, he would certainly consider (as a good will gesture, mind you) turning over Philby to the British as a wanted traitor. Philby's health may have taken a turn for the worst when he realized he'd be only valuable as a returning felon pawn in future Russian government moves.
I hate to say it, but I never saw BORN TO KILL. Is it any good?
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 176
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 6:41 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I'm not sure what the protocol was pertaining to the Soviets placing individuals on stamps but Philby wasn't so honored until 1990, two years after his death and about one before the demise of the Union itself.
As for Born to Kill, I haven't seen it either (although I have read a lot about it) but I plan to do so soon. It's one of the films featured in the box set Film Noir Classic Collection Vol. II which I plan to purchase. I have Vol.I and it contains such greats as Gun Crazy and Murder, My Sweet.
Regarding Cream, he certainly looks like a JTR sent over by central casting. How do you feel about the assertion that he had a double and his supposed abbreviated confession on the scaffold? (That is, if it won't give away your article.) If the admission was only heard by James Billington, one would have to wonder if he truly understood what Cream said or could even have made the whole thing up.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 702
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 8:33 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I cannot say anything about Billington - hopefully my article will bring out certain points about Cream's execution.
I have seen MURDER MY SWEET, but I have not seen GUN CRAZY (or OUT OF THE FOG, for that matter). If they happen to be on at the time I'm available to catch them I watch them. MURDER MY SWEET was pretty good (I like Dick Powell, and the film gave Mike Mazurki one of his few really interesting tough guy roles - but catch him in De Mille's THE UNCONQUERED for a moment of remarkable common sense that all employees of hard bosses would appreciate). One of my favorite noirs is THE BIG CLOCK, which I enjoy more and more everytime I watch it. I liked it more than it's remake with Gene Hackman, although that film had some good moments in it too.
Perhaps the British ought to honor some of their spy geniuses too. How about a stamp for Admiral "Blinker" Hall, the spymaster who helped decode the Zimmermann Telegram, and made sure it got into American hands. Or Commander Ewen Montague, who dreamed up the spy hoax known as "the man who never was". Certainly some belated recognition for both men should be deserved.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 177
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 17, 2005 - 6:30 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I haven't seen The Big Clock but I shall endeaver to do so. It has been on TV here but it never seems to be on at a proper hour. As a pleasant surprise noir film goes, Quicksand with Mickey Rooney gets my vote. It also features James Cagney's very sexy sister as the femme fatale. Hard to believe that those two came from the same parents.
Regarding the Zimmermann Telegram, some maintain that it was a hoax perpetrated by British Intelligence to trick us into entering the war on their side. My High School History teacher said that we should have declared war on them because they were flying our flag on their ships when we were still neutral.
Then there's also the assertion that they knew in advance that Japan was going to attack Pearl Harbor and didn't forewarn us because they figured that we would enter the war more aggressively if we were surprise attacked. Of course, conspiracy theorists say the same about President Roosevelt.
I think there's little doubt the British Intelligence was the best in the world during the first half of the Twentieth Century. Their luster sort of faded when the missed the Cambridge Five for so long and then failed to prevent or solve the assassination of Georgi Markov.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 704
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 17, 2005 - 8:36 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
The rumor that the Zimmermann Telegram was a hoax was actually scuttled by one fool - Alfred Zimmermann, Foreign Minister of Germany. He was confronted by reporters after the release of the contents of the telegram, and instead of indignantly denying it, he admitted it was his.
So much for the hoax. That doesn't mean that the British did not violate our neutrality. They did, with a casual wink from the Wilson Administration. Although officially neutral, Wilson favored the victory of Britain and France over Germany, but neutrality means exactly what it implies - that you can't side with one of the combatants. So the Germans noted that American arms did get to the Allies, while little American arms or food reached the Central Powers. This led to the immense German sabotage campaign in the U.S. culminating in the "Black Tom" Island explosion in 1916. It also was one of the reasons for the use of submarines by Germany to sink ships carrying contreband. Only once, in the 1914 - 1917 period did the British lose American support. When they retaliated after the Easter Uprising, Americans were appalled by the number of executions of Irish patriots.
Their intelligence was better than America's or Germany in the first three decades of the 20th Century. By World War II Germany had improved it's spy rings. America had to catch up during the Second World War with the 0.S.S. I suspect that the diminishing of Britain's world power image led to the similar collapse of standards in it's inteligence gathering, allowing the Cambridge Five to flourish.
I hate to say it, but I have never seen QUICKSAND either. I know something of the plot (Rooney is drawn into more and more criminal acts due to the preceeding ones). It sounds promising, especially as Peter Lorre is one of the heavies in it.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 178
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, June 18, 2005 - 3:20 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Yes, you've got the plot right for Quicksand. Yesterday, I watched Asphalt Jungle with Sterling Hayden. Every time I see him, I can't help but think of old Gen. Jack D. Ripper in Dr. Strangelove which may be my favorite film.
I was always surprised that the best the Germans could do was "Black Tom". Some think the 1920 Wall Street bombing was a belated "sore loser" attack but I think an Anarchist was a more likely suspect.
They were even less successful in WWII. The two squads they landed never got around to blowing anything up. Beyond that, the only other events, I can think of, that were even slightly suspected of being acts of sabotage were the burning of the Normandy, which may have been an accident, and the Great Hartford Circus Fire which was probably set by serial killer Robert Segee.
Best regards,
Stan
(Message edited by Sreid on June 18, 2005) |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 707
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 18, 2005 - 8:30 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
If I may suggest two books about German espionage and sabotage operations in the U.S. pre-1917 see Barbara Tuchman's THE ZIMMERMAN TELEGRAM and and Jules Witchover's SABOTAGE AT BLACK TOM: IMPERIAL GERMANY'S SECRET WAR IN AMERICA - 1914 - 1917 (Chapel Hill, North Carolina: Algonquin Books of Chapel Hill, c. 1989). The latter is a little boring, but it does go through the classic stories of German saboteurs (like Von Rintelen, and - interestingly enough, Franz Von Papen, then stationed in Washington,D.C.), and the torturous history of how the Germans denied and fought the allegation of the sabotage at Black Tom, until after World War II when they finally admitted it and settled the damages. There have been rumors of other acts of theirs, even after war was declared. In 1918, the disappearance of the collier, U.S.S. Cyclops, may have been due to sabotage from pro-Germans in Rio de Janairo. Also, in 1916, the explosion at the Preparedness Day Parade in San Francisco, California (that was blamed on Tom Mooney and Warren Billings, who went to prison for twenty years for it) may have been from a German agent. See THE BILLINGS CASE by Richard H. Frost (Stanford, California, Stanford University Press, 1968). There were plenty of odd sabotage acts in the period that could have been by German agents. As for the Wall Street Explosion (which was the worst terrorist act in lower Manhattan prior to either the Fraunces Tavern attack in the 1970s or the World Trade Center disaster of 2001), I have always been sure that it was the result of an anarchist - a reaction to the Palmer raids.
The Normandy disaster has also been attributed to the activities of Lucky Luciano's henchman, to help get the Feds to meet with him about an arrangement for him to aid the war effort, and get released from prison (after the war he was deported to Italy, where he continued his activities). The Hartford Circus Fire may have been Segee's handywork. It could also have been an accident. How it was an act of sabotage by German agents makes no sense to me. But I am aware of some troop train disaster in the west, about 1943, which definitely was sabotage, but was never solved. I saw a discussion of it on the history channel once.
I love the names of the characters in Dr. Strangelove. Besides the title character (who is based more on Edward Teller than on Henry Kissinger, as some have suggested), there is General Ripper, Group Captain Lionel Mandrake (a "mandrake" root, which is shaped like a man's body, if you tear it out of the ground is supposed to let out a scream that drives the hearer mad), Captain "Bat" Guano (Keenan Wynn),
Colonel "King" Kong (Slim Pickens in his greatest role - YIPPEE!!!), President Merton Muffley ("I'm sorry too Dimitry!"), Premier Dimitry Kissoff, and Ambassador De Sadeski). I forgot General "Buck" Turgidson. Great cast too.
I wonder if any of them got into a cave and managed to avoid the "shaft gap" that Strangelove warned them about.
Best regards,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 179
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 6:18 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
'But can he make it General?--HELL!! YYEeess---' 'Mister President we must not have a mine shaft gap!' Too bad all the main players are gone. James Earl Jones is the biggest role actor still surviving, I think. Yes, I wonder if they all went underground and got busy doing all that prodigious breeding with those numerous sexually stimulating females?
Interestingly, unbeknownst to the movie makers, the Soviets were actually working on a doom's day device at the time. It was a large ship that was essentially an enormous hydrogen bomb of something like 10,000 megatons. They planned to cruise it up and down the east coast of their country with a trigger that would set it off automatically if radiation levels indicated that we had hit them with a strike. It was said that it would have boiled the ocean dry at the point of detonation and put so much radioactive dust and water vapor into the air that it would have wiped out virtually all life in the Northern Hemisphere and most in the Southern. The leadership finally scrapped the plan when they found out that to be effective there would have to be no way to shut the thing off.
I'm going to send this first part and will send a second because my line has been going dead and I don't want to have to retype all of this.
(Message edited by Sreid on June 19, 2005) |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 180
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 8:06 pm: |
|
Part II:
One last thing on Strangelove, I'd always heard that he was based on Teller (not much like an ex-NAZI scientist). Maybe Wernher von Braun would have been a better choice.
Going back to the points about being executed for crimes other than murder, I did think of one law still on the books. If someone tries to frame a person for a crime, in some states, they are subject to the same punishment as that individual, had he been convicted. That would make the framer eligible for execution if he was trying to get another person convicted of a Capital crime.
Regarding the Great Hartford Circus Fire being sabotage, the possibility was considered and discounted early on. The assumption was that it might be an act of Axis terrorism.
As for the Normandy, yes, I was aware of the Luciano game and a possible Italian connection.
On the topic of other sabotage, I don't recall any troop train disaster in 1943. There was the intentional derailment of the City of San Francisco at Carlin, Nevada in August of 1939; a case I wrote about in the AMW News Magazine. It happened two weeks before Hitler and Stalin started their invasion of Poland and I don't think it was any sort of pre-emptive strike. Twenty-four people were killed and over one hundred were injured. Police found tools, tracks and two jackets left behind so it was assumed that there were two people involved. The case was never solved but the theory was that they were disgruntled employees or former employees. Because there were two involved, it is unlikely that it was a Matuschka type situation.
There was a similar unsolved 1995 crime in which one person was killed. The criminal(s) left a note at the scene signed "Sons of Gestapo". No such group is known and the letter is believed to be a red herring.
Getting way out on the fringe, there was also the so-called Murder Train that was discovered in McKees Rocks, Pennsylvania in May of 1940. Evidence showed that the three victims were killed in Youngstown, Ohio in December of 1939. Many think that these victims were killed by the same person responsible for the unsolved Cleveland Torso Slayings.
The only victim who was identified was James Nicholson. He had a criminal record including a burglary conviction at Pontiac, IL in 1929, not too far from me. Nicholson also had the word NA?I carved in his chest. The ? has always been thought to be a backward Z sliced in by a dyslexic murderer making the word NAZI. Was the killer signing his work as a NAZI or was he accusing Nicholson of being one?
Since it's hard to cut a curved line into flesh, perhaps the "backward Z" was actually an S. What could NASI mean? There was an Italian commander by that name who was having some success in Eastern Africa at the time but why would the killer choose to carve his name into a victim? Who knows.
Hope you got both my messages.
Best wishes,
Stan
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 709
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 10:41 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I stand corrected - the train sabotage case I was recalling was the City of San Francisco disaster in 1939. I just garbled up the details, recalling it was never solved and was at or near the period of the Second World War.
Re: The Normandy fire. I neglected to remind you (I'm sure you remember this) that Hitchcock sneaked a shot of the Normandy on it's side at the New York pier in SABOTEUR (with a shot of Norman Lloyd looking smug as he passes it). On a personal note, a number of years back I knew an elderly man who worked in the fire department in New York City in 1942. He was on one of the fireboats used to put out the fire. But Mort, my friend (who is dead now) told me the reason it sank was due to the stupid orders given by the officer in charge of putting out the fire. Mort said that if the ship had been properly scuttled at the pier, the fire could have been put out and the ship reraised for continued use. Instead, by pouring tons of water onto the top of the ship by the fireboats, it caused the boat to capsize on it's side. It ruined the Normandy from further use.
The backward "s"/"?" reminds me of the carved marks on the face of Leon Beron, the victim in the Steinie Morrison Case in 1911. Beron was found with a mark (an "S"?) on his face - was it an "S" for "spy" or the Russian/Yiddish word "Spick" which was the same thing. There was a theory (which still goes around) that Leon was killed for informing to the police the whereabouts of the cop killers in the Houndsditch Murders - the crime that led to the siege of Sidney Street.
Otherwise I have not heard of the Youngstown case of 1940 at all.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 181
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 7:54 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
No, I didn't know about the scene in Sabotuer regarding the Normandy. That's the one Hitchcock film I should have seen but haven't. Someday I will.
I always figured the ship turned on its side because they made it top heavy by pouring on too much water. The one "good" thing I guess you could say about the whole incident is that only one person lost their life.
Regarding the Steinie Morrison Case, I don't know a lot about it. On a related topic however, I did write about Peter "The Painter" Piatkow for AMW Mag. and, because he was never captured, listed him as one of The World's Ten Most Wanted for the years 1910-1919.
The "cryptography" on Beron's face reminded me a little of another murderer I'd written about who claimed a Russian connection, that is, the 3X Killer of Queens in 1930. He attacked two "courting" couples a few days apart, killing the men and leaving the women with a mysterious note signed 3X3-X-097. He said he was an agent of some secret anti-Comminist Russian group and made demands regarding the return of some unspecified documents. He was never captured or identified and no one ever quite figured what the heck he was talking about.
Back to the movies, I see on IMDb that there's another movie due out next year about Raymond Fernandez and Martha Beck entitled Lonely Hearts. Unlike many, I enjoyed the 1970 film The Honeymoon Killers about the same case. I believe it started out as Martin Scorese's first movie but he was replaced before it was completed. The murders were also the basis for the 1996 Mexican film Profundo carmesi. In the upcoming feature the murderess is played by Salma Hayek. It's hard to imagine her playing that greasy slob Beck!
Best wishes,
Stan
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 711
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 8:08 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
The best book on Sidney Street and the related mysteries is THE HOUNDSDITCH MURDERS (U.S. title, THE SIEGE OF SIDNEY STREET) by Donald Rumbelow. It was the first book of his that I ever read. Peter the Painter, he feels, was an interesting side matter, as the real leader of the anarchist group would eventually become a leader of the Cheka in the U.S.S.R. under Lenin and Stalin. [There has also been a legend that Stalin might have been one of the "anarchists" because he had been involved in bank robberies in Russia, and was in England in 1910 or so - Rumbelow dismisses that story, as well as the connection with Beron and Morrison.]
Queens has had a number of interesting killings. The Snyder-Gray Case (Ruth's home is still standing and in use in Queens Village). The Guldensuppe - Nack - Thorne Case of 1897 (in Woodside). The Kitty Genovese Case on Austin Street in Forest Hills. Also, in the 1930s, there were a series of killings on the roads of Queens of motorists that were never solved.
I never saw THE HONEYMOON KILLERS, though I remember when the film came out. I also have a small paperback about the case which I haven't read. It's amazing how difficult it is to get everything one wants to do done.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 184
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 6:07 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I guess the biggest thing everyone remembers about the Snyder/Gray Case is the shot of Ruth kicking up her heels in the electric chair taken by that reporter with his secret ankle-cam. The thing that most fascinates me is the reason they resorted the sash-weight, that is, Albert Snyder's bizarre immunity to arsenic. It seemed to have had no effect on him as a Plan B after he failed to drown when being "accidently" pushed off his boat.
Regarding Kitty Genovese, have you seen the 1975 TV movie Death Scream which was based on the case? It's not too good. The main reason to watch it is to see an adolescent Helen Hunt. I now see that Winston Moseley is claiming that he's innocent of all the murders he was accused of. Surprise, surprise!
Regarding the Guldensuppe/Nack/Thorne Case, I know nothing of it. Please enlighten me if you wish.
As for the series of unsolved murders of Queens motorists in the 1930s, I'm not familiar with that either. That is, unless you are referring to the Lipstick Murders of 1937, which some think are related to 3X.
Best wishes,
Stan
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 713
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 8:03 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
One of these days I may do an article on Guldensuppe for THE Ripperologist. It has some bearing on one of the legends of the Ripper Case, and should be considered in the context of Whitechapel. Suffice it to say, Mr. Thorne lured Guldensuppe, a rival, to a house in Woodside, Queens (at the time this was the countryside - it is about fifteen minutes from Manhattan now by subway). Thorne was assisted by Mrs. Nack, his girlfriend - who was tired of a second affair with Guldensuppe. The latter was shot and killed in the rented house, and his body disposed of (but not well enough). Eventually there was a trial of Thorne, and Mrs. Nack was smart enough to give evidence against him to save her neck. Thorne died in electric chair in 1898.
I have to recheck the NY Times Indexes to find the story. It was a series of drive by shootings of apparently random motorists in Queens in the middle 1930s.
Moseley has such a number of crimes against him that I doubt if he'll ever get out. Of course, there may be some group of so-called civil libertarians who will champion his cause - like those who believed Hanratty was framed.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 186
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 5:34 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I take that back! After reading your account, I remembered reading about the Guldensuppe murder in a Martin Fido book I have. The dismemberment sounds a lot like those in the Cleveland Torso Slayings of the 1930s. I guess there's just one good way to cut up a body for transport.
The fact that the body was wrapped in oil/american cloth also reminds me of the guy who may have been JTR seen with Kelly by Hutchinson shortly before her murder. Since he was carrying a bag made of the same fabric, it must have been quite the popular material of the time.
Best regards,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 715
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 8:28 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
As a matter of fact, American Cloth was quite popular. When Henry Wainwright cut up the body of Harriet Lane in Whitechapel, and tried to transport it across the East End by hansom cab in 1875, he wrapped up the remains in American Cloth. Richard Altick, in discussing the Wainwright case in VICTORIAN STUDIES IN SCARLET, points out that the cloth had a strong, pungent smell, and Americans were not too happy that it was named for them. Wainwright may have used this cloth because it's odor would hide the odor of decaying flesh.
Like so many crimes I looked into an aspect of the Snyder Gray Case once that had been underdiscussed - the guilt of a third party involved. In the film/novel based on the case, Double Indemnity, Walter Neff (the fictional counterpart of Judd Gray) is an insurance salesman - not a lady's underwear salesman as Gray actually was. James Cain, in the novel, wanted to include the insurance scheme (to kill Mr. Dietrichson when he had that policy with the double indemnity clause if he is killed accidentally or in a crime). The policy on Albert Snyder had such a clause. In the fictional story Neff manipulates some paperwork so that Dietrichson signs the insurance papers without realizing it. In actuality Snyder's signature was forged by Ruth and Judd with the connivance of an insurance salesman who subsequently was fired and sent to prison for five years for fraud. There was also a long court case in which the insurance company was sued by Ruth's mother for Ruth's daughter by Albert. Ruth's mother argued that even if Ruth (the original insurance beneficiary) had planned the murder of the insuree (Albert), the secondary beneficiary (Ruth's daughter) should not be penalized by the law as she did not take part in the crime. The argument was not acceptable to the New York courts.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 188
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 12:54 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I guess oil/american cloth must have been the garbage bags of its day. If that guy was JTR, I wonder if he was planning on carrying off MJK's organs in that satchel.
Regarding the Wainwright Case, I'm surprised that the papers described it as a Greenacre type crime, a murder that happened nearly 40 years beforehand. That killing must have been a much bigger sensation than we realize today.
I love Double Indemnity with Barbara Stanwyck as the femme fatale who was much better looking than Mrs. Snyder and Fred MacMurray playing against type. In reality, Ruth Snyder looked more like a female impersonator than a femme fatale to me.
My favorite real life femme fatale would have to be "Machine-Gun" Kelly's g/f Kathryn Shannon. Second would likely be Elizabeth Jones of Hulten and Jones fame.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 716
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 8:19 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
Curiously I have never really considered the various femme fatales from the point of view of their actual looks. Evelyn Nesbit was possibly the most attractive looking woman (when she was young - not after a lifetime of drinking) of any woman involved in a celebrated murder case. One that always convinces me that photography is a haphazard art form is Gabrielle Bompard (the French coquette who helped Michel Eyraud strangle Gouffe the bailiff in the 1889 trunk murder case. Her pictures don't reveal anything special about her features, but there is something puckish in her expressions that suggests a minx.
I always wondered what happened to Elizabeth Jones after her prison sentence was over. And I wonder if she ever saw that film with Kiefer Sutherland, Chicago Joe.... If she did I bet she was surprised at how the story was twisted up.
The Wainwright Case was quite an affair in 1875, as the first mutilation murder in London in about 20 years (the previous one had been the Waterloo Bridge Mystery of 1857). Greenacre's killing in 1836-37 spawned quite a bit of commentary at the time, in part because of the killer's social position (he was platform chairman for an parliamentary election a few years earlier - the candidate, ironically enough, was Daniel Whitten Harvey, the first head of the City Police). Wainwright had a higher than usual social position too - he hobnobbed with theatrical people (he liked to give little dinners for theatre people - especially actresses). In 1871 he attended the funeral of the dramatist Tom Robinson (whom he supposedly resembled). W. S. Gilbert, a friend of Robinson's, noted the odd resemblence between the two men. Oddly enough, in 1875, Gilbert got out of some jury duty by taking up (briefly) a brief on Wainwright's defense in the homicide case. He was not involved in the final trial.
It was the year he wrote TRIAL BY JURY for Arthur Sullivan.
DOUBLE INDEMNITY is a favorite of mine too. The novel differs from it in several ways. I don't know if you read it, but the conclusion is not the same (though both Phyllis and Walter die).
And also Wilder had a slightly different end in mind for the film - he wanted MacMurray to die in the death chamber while his friend Robinson watched. Actually the present ending is far more effective.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 189
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 2:36 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I haven't seen a picture of Gabrielle Bompard so I don't know how she rated in the looks department.
As far as Elizabeth Jones goes, since she was born in 1926, I'd expect that she's still alive and probably saw Chicago Joe and the Showgirl; a so-so film. If I was feeling generous, I might give it 6 out of 10 stars on IMDb.
No,I haven't read the Double Indemnity book. I have trouble with novels keeping my interest. Right now, I'm trying to find the time to read the book on Mudgett/Holmes that one of my sons gave me for Father's Day. I almost bought a book about him some time ago which, if I remember correctly, asserted that he was America's first serial killer. I don't know how anyone could say that with such famous cases as the Benders out there. America's (meaning U.S.A.'s) first real serial killers would likely be the Harpe brothers 1770-1804.
Best regards,
Stan
(Message edited by Sreid on June 25, 2005)
(Message edited by Sreid on June 25, 2005) |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 717
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 10:29 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
There are three books currently out on Holmes. THE DEVIL IN THE WHITE CITY by Erik Larson tells his story against the equally interesting tale of the Columbian Exposition in Chicago in 1893. There was THE TORTURE DOCTOR by David Franke written in the 1980s. There is a third book DEPRAVED by Harold Schechter. There is also a 1955 book THE GIRLS IN HELL HOUSE, part of the series of true crime studies (THE GIRL IN THE HOUSE OF HATE about Lizzie Borden; THE GIRL ON THE BEACH about Starr Faithfull; THE GIRL IN THE RED VELVET SWING about the Thaw - White - Nesbitt case). So which one did your son purchase?
Since you don't intend to read the novel I'll explain. James Cain built Neff's personality to be like the so-called "putty" man personality of his counterpart Gray. He can't get Phyllis / Ruth out of his system. In the end his friend and boss, Keyes, allows him to flee with Phyllis (not the situation at the end of the movie). They cross the border into Mexico, so theoretically they are free - but they really aren't. The weight of their guilt weighs them down. In the end, they decide to commit suicide together by walking off the ship they are on while it is at sea. It is a totally different ending from Wilder's movie version.
Wilder, by the way, also toyed with a different start and finish to SUNSET BLVD. It was to start not with William Holden's narration as his body is found and fished out of Swanson's swimming pool. It was to begin with Holden's body delivered to the morgue, and he and all the other corpses talk about what happened to them - and so Holden would have been able to enter into the story. It was not to end as it did - at the end of the film Nancy Olsen was to show up in tears, crying at Holden's corpse. Of course, the final shots of Swanson descending the staircase into blissful madness were far more powerful - thank God Wilder did it finally as he did.
There are ever earlier and earlier serial killers. There is a fellow named Greene who rampaged in the New England area in the 1810 - 1820 period, and there were the Harpes on the Nachez Trace. But there were probably even earlier ones who were able to disguise their crimes as done by different people or even by Indians as atrocities. To me it is academic who was first. Holmes (in my opinion) was at the head of his class due to that murder castle idea.
I don't think anyone ever tried to duplicate it on a private level (the Nazis did on a national level).
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 190
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 7:41 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
My son gave me The Devil in the White City. I'd seen the two others of the first three you'd listed at the book store. The Torture Doctor was the one I'd seen many years ago and considered buying.
Holmes' castle set up was pretty much unique although Herman Drenth carried on a somewhat similar enterprise in WV around 1930. When I was a child, an elderly neighbor related how she'd gone to the Chicago World's Fair when she was young. I didn't know about Holmes then but maybe she was lucky.
Today, I finished going through all the 3/4 million films, TV shows and video games listed on IMDb. I found about 350 movies based on true crimes of which more than 200 were renditions of serial killer cases. That daunting project took me about six months.
Best regards,
Stan
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 718
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 8:12 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
When you get a chance, look up the name of the famous British barrister, Edward Marshall Hall on Google. I did during lunch today, and found there was some television or commercial film called BRIDES IN THE BATH, which must have been about George Joseph Smith (whom Marshall Hall defended).
I suspect there are more than just 350 films based on true crimes. There are detective movies that have plots suggested by actual cases.
Did you make a list?
The Holmes Castle was somewhat unique because it was not only a murder enterprise but a business. Don't forget, it was supposed to be a hotel. I keep suspecting that had he not been caught because of the murder of Ben Pitezel, and that incredible journey with Ben's poor children, Holmes would have eventually have figured out a way to set fire to the "hotel", destroy the evidence, and collect a large insurance policy. That was his usual method.
I have seen photographs of his hotel - it actually looks shabby, but if you consider what the rooms were like, the interior must have not been designed to be for "House Beautiful".
Read THE DEVIL IN THE WHITE CITY. I found it quite interesting about Holmes, about the fair, and about Chicago in 1893-1895.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 193
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 9:36 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Yes, I've seen a picture of Mudgett's "castle" as well and you're right it does look more like a slum building than a new one. Have never seen any interior shots. I guess you could say that Dr. Petiot's scheme was somewhat similar.
I came a cross that Brides in the Bath production on IMDb about a week ago. As I recall, it was a British TV movie so I wonder if it will ever be available here.
Yes, I did make a list of those films but they are only in the order that I found them right now. I didn't take down a lot of titles that I could have. All I listed were murders. I didn't list westerns like Billie the Kid movies or gangster features like Al Capone films. There were also movies that were said to be based on cases that I'd never heard of. If I couldn't verify them from another source, I didn't include those either.
I see where Rader pleaded guilty to BTK today. When I saw the opening scene of Manhunter, the original Hannibal film, it reminded me of the Otero murders. I've never heard anyone say it was though.
Best regards,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 720
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 8:50 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
Interesting that you mentioned Dr. Petiot. He did use that rented building for killing most of his victims. Like Holmes, he took advantage of a local event - in this case Paris in the Holacaust Period - to kill and plunder those Jewish refugees unlucky enough to cross his path and need his "help".
I haven't seen MANHUNTER (or even the film Hopkins got the Oscar for). As for the Otero murders, I also admit ignorance. As for Mr. Rader, the comment made by one of the psychiatrist was interesting. His matter of fact report of his murder spree kept him (despite being in police control) to remain in control of the situation and continue the agony of the families of his victims. I keep hoping that, when he is in prison, he is successful living there as Richard Loeb or Jeffrey Dahmer were.
I would not bother with any western genre movies on your list - the distortions of most of the figures in the west (Earp, Masterson, Holiday, the James Boys, the Youngers, the Daltons, Cody, Hickok, Hardin, Belle Starr, the Kid) is so intense that really few of the films deal with the real personalities of these people.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 200
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 7:10 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Have you seen the picture of Petiot straining in the guillotine just as the blade is beginning to drop? I tried to order the film Le Docteur Petiot but they told me it was no longer available. At the same time, I was able to get L'Elegant Criminel about Lacenaire and it was pretty good.
My favorite French true-crime film is Les Blessures Assassines about the Papin sisters, their incestuous lesbian relationship and the horrible murders they perpetrated. I think they were condemned to death but, as was the usual French practice when the criminal was female, the sentences were commuted. The younger of the two was later released and there are rumors that she may still be alive and living under an assumed name.
Regarding Rader, I could see that he was in his glory relating those murders in court plus he got to twist the knife one more time in the hearts of his victims' families. I expect that he'll be protected in prison but maybe he'll be stupid and ask to be released into the general population like Dahmer did. His case does bolster my argument that the FBI tenet that says 'serial killers don't just stop' is wrong.
As for Leopold and Loeb, I always wondered why the former escaped the de facto death penalty unlike his sweetheart. Perhaps it was because he didn't seem quite as arrogant about the matter as Loeb did.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 722
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 8:26 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
No I haven't seen that picture of Petiot in the guilloutine. I also missed the film. As for Lacenaire I did see his classier appearance in French cinema - Les Enfants du Paradis. The murder of the Count of Montjoy is fictitious, but the involvement of Avril with Lacenaire is true. Pierre Brassieur (I think he played Lacenaire) did get across the intellectual arrogance of the man. I find it fascinating that Lacenaire, Le Maitre, and Deburau were the three real life figures whose lives were blended in that film.
Loeb was quieter than Loeb in prison, and the latter apparently was just asking for it. I always liked that newspaper comment about, "Richard Loeb, a student of English, yesterday ended a life sentence with a proposition." That was a nice summation.
As for favorite film based on a real life French murder case, I think that Chaplin's MONSIEUR VERDOUX comes close to it. He does try to make a philosophical point which many people don't buy, but I enjoy the bulk of the film. Oddly enough I have not seen BLUEBEARD'S TEN HONEYMOONS with George Sanders or LANDRU. Have you?
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 203
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 6:24 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I haven't seen Les Enfants du Paradis. Some descriptions make it look like it may have started off as a Vichy cinema production. Neither have I seen Monsieur Verdoux although I have it on my list.
I have seen both Landru and Bluebeard's Ten Honeymoons. Of interest, I see that IMDb lists a film entitled Bluebeard that was released in 1909 before Landru even started. I believe in a criminal sense at that time when someone referred to "Bluebeard" they were usually speaking of Gilles de Rais.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 723
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 8:12 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
An interesting point about the term "Bluebeard". It got popularized (if I can use that term) to refer to Henri Landru, because of his international notoriety post Versailles Treaty. But as a matter of fact, it had been used for the same type of negative connotation prior to Landru ever first turning his attention to the matrimonial notices.
Today we do realize that the legend of "Bluebeard" was a twisted version of the case of Marshall Gilles de Rais in the 15th Century.
Charles Perault watered down the horrors of that ogre (if they were true - there is some question about it), to be about a much married murderer or wife imprisoner, whose last wife and her brothers destroy him and rescue the earlier wives.
However, by the turn of the 19th into the 20th Century the term had been used to describe certain real life murderers of spouses or fiances for cash. Deeming was referred by it once. So was Johann Hoch, the pudgy murderer of between 20 and 50 middle european ladies in the U.S. In fact Hoch was called the "Stockyard Bluebeard" in reference to his career in killings in Chicago (where he eventually was hung. And (a few years later) Belle Gunness was called a "female Bluebeard". Possibly this was done to not only demonize Belle but to de - feminize her as well. All this was before 1909.
By the way, the use of the term "Bluebeard" as a reproach at a man who was dating or chasing too many woment is often overlooked. In 1903 there was a play, "Mr. Bluebeard" that starred Eddie Foy Sr. (but not his seven kids). It was playing at the Iroquois Theatre in Chicago when the dreadful fire of 1903 took place. Foy was able to calm down part of the audience and enable them to escape, but 600 others (mostly women and children) were not that lucky.
From what I understand of LES ENFANTS, it was shot partly in secret, as the French Vichy part of the war was crumbling at the time. Years ago I recall seeing Arletty and Jean-Louis Barrault on a television show discussing it (it must have been in the early 1970s). The Vichy government felt that the film was too proletarian, so they had to work in secret. Even so, the film is a wonderful one.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 206
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 01, 2005 - 6:53 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I'd have to investigate where I saw it but I remember reading in some book I've got here that there were suspicions that Belle Gunness and Johann Hoch may have actually been working together. If that's the case, too bad they didn't take each other out early on.
Thinking about two serial killers trying to take each other out reminds me of rivals Carlton "The Stocking Strangler" Gary and William "Chairman of the Forces of Evil" Hance. Sadly, they never got to meet.
Regarding Belle, some time back, I found a 1908 film about the "Black Widow" on IMDb called Gunness Murder Farm. It's listed as a Crime/Short. There isn't much information on it but I'd guess that it's more like a Documentary/Newsreel.
Best wishes,
Stan
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 727
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 01, 2005 - 8:01 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I am always suspicious about those newspaper or early coverage reports that criminal "A" knew criminal "B". It was reported in 1905 that Hoch worked as a janitor in H. H. Holmes' murder castle (although Hoch's marrying murder scams were taking place in 1893 - 1895).
Why on earth did Carlton Gary and William Hance take such a dislike to each other? Mutual jealousy?
I would not imagine that the Gunness Murder Farm would end up in an early short subject (although in 1908 most films were really short subjects).
I have been roving around IMDb looking up subjects to do biographical squibs about (mostly political figures from 1880 - 1950), and there are so many odd old movies that were taken to celebrate long forgotten parades and civil ceremonies tied to Spanish-American War figures like Dewey, Schley, Sampson, Shafter, Wheeler, Fitzhugh Lee, Nelson Miles, Theodore Roosevelt, McKinley, even Vice President Garret Hobart!
I have found that (because he was the Mayor of Greater New York at the time) the long forgotten Roger Van Wyck is in at least two surviving films. There is also two films where Boss Richard Croker pops up (one showing him leaving Tammany Hall with his cronies in 1900). Theodore Roosevelt and his daughter Alice appear on one with Prince Henry of Prussia (the brother of Kaiser Wilhelm II) because Alice launched the Kaiser's American built yacht, METEOR, about 1902. I'm still trying to figure out why Wilhelm could not get his yacht built in Germany.
I keep imagining that if motion pictures had been made a decade earlier (say if Eadward Muybridge had carefully considered his photographic work and figured out how to do it), we might have seen Generals Grant and Sherman in their last years, or Edwin Booth, or Inspector Abbeline (if he got permission). Of course, none of them would have been in a talking film.
[I have a Naxos CD set which gives famous actors doing Shakespeard, including Irving as Cardinal Wolsey, and Booth doing a speech from Othello. Booth actually is a remarkably restrained actor, and probably could have fitted in more modern play acting than Irving could.]
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 207
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, July 02, 2005 - 6:56 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
You're right, it is too bad that Muybridge didn't put two and two together and figure out how to make movies in the 1870s. If so, we might have films of Custer riding off to the Little Big Horn or newsreel footage of the actual Gunfight at the OK Corral! His running horse series of stills certainly proved that the film speed was fast enough to make movies in the 1870s. Of course, that's easy for us to say in hindsight. He did more to advance the field than any other person on Earth had done up to that time.
I think there was a kind of jealousy between Gary and Hance, although, more the latter of the former. Hance was mostly trying to get Gary, a black man who was killing white women, caught by the police. Even though he was black as well, he wrote to authorities pretending to be a white supremacist and threatening to kill more black ladies if they didn't stop Gary from murdering white women. He eventually got his wish and got himself caught as well.
As for movies in 1908 being mostly shorts, the generally regarded first feature lenght film is a true-crime movie of sorts. It's the 1906, Australian, 70 minute, film about Ned Kelly entitled The Story of the Kelly Gang. Some argue that another Australian production called Soldiers of the Cross, which was made in 1900 by that country's Salvation Army, deserves that honor. The work is a series of ten reels about martyred Christians. Total running time is about two and a half hours when viewed in sequence. The argument comes in as to whether this is a two and a half hour film or ten movies of 15 minutes each.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 729
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 03, 2005 - 2:06 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I find it interesting that Ned Kelly's career would be the subject of one of the first full length films. I don't know if it still exists, but I suppose it might be better than the one with Mick Jagger as Ned.
The earliest of the American full length films (I think) is Griffiths' JUDITH Of BETHALIA in 1914 (which runs under an hour). He'd been building up to it. And the Europeans had made several like Sarah Bernhardt's QUEEN ELIZABETH and an Italian version of THE LAST DAYS OF POMPEII (which was a colossal flop). You needed a Griffiths or DeMille to direct such long films, so that the audience would not get bored.
I always enjoy thinking of Muybridge. Edison met him several times in the late 1880s when he first thought of motion pictures, and he was pumping him for his impressions of whether or not the idea was feasible. Muybridge thought so, but he had no interest in pursuing it (his slow frame time/motion sequences were a full-time occupation by then, and he probably realized it would immortalize his name in photography - so why get involved in mechanics he didn't fully understand?). Edison must have been relieved that there was one less rival in the field.
Muybridge had an interesting career in other respects. He shot and killed his wife's lover in the 1870s, and was tried and acquitted ("the unwritten law" again). I always like to think that besides laying the foundation for motion pictures, he did prove Leland Stamford was right - a racing horse does, occasionally, have all four legs off the ground at the same time!
It's nice to see Hance was hoist on his own petard by his crusade against Gary. Doesn't happen too often among serial killers. Occasionally (looking at those who worked in the same period) I think there is an element of copycat habits. In April 1892 the London newspapers linked Deeming with the "double header" Ripper killing of Stride and Eddowes. Within a week Cream poisoned two prostitutes on one night. I would not be surprised if Cream decided to copy what he thought Deeming had done - and what the Ripper actually may have done.
Listening to old recordings of late 19th Century voices, I have the same feelings of chagrin and loss as I feel about the lateness of motion pictures. We have (at present) the voices of every President from Grover Cleveland to the present. However, Chester Arthur (who lived to 1886) missed the advent of wax cylinders as did Ulysses Grant (d. 1885). President Rutherford Hayes did make a tin-foil recording on the original phonograph, but the chances are it no longer exists (or if it does, it is too delicate to try to replay right now). As for celebrities, there are recordings of Arthur Sullivan and Johannes Brahms in existance (Brahms is introduced as "Herr Doktor Brahms") but they missed Offenbach (died 1880), Gounod (died 1883), and Wagner (died 1883). One record which bedevils specialists is the recording of Queen Victoria's voice. She had a very "silvery" sounding voice, but she supposedly destroyed the record in 1900, believing it was wrong for her voice to survive her physical being. Recently though there has been a question if it survived after all.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 208
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, July 03, 2005 - 8:58 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Yes, that 1906 Ned Kelly film could very well be better than Mick's version. I saw the 2003 film based on Kelly last year and I thought it was quite good.
When they referred to the early film as feature length, they were using 60 minutes as a boundary. Personally, I think it should qualify if it's over 45 minutes.
If I remember correctly, Edison actually made a kind of color sound film in the 1890s. The frames were hand colored and the sound was on a phonograph which was virtually impossible to synchronize so it never went anywhere.
To me, the sound part looked like the element that required the most "vision". For the movie idea, all they had to do is combine two things that already existed, that is, still photography and flip book animation.
I see where Homolka is on her way out. Perhaps she can share a flat with Mary Flora Bell.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 732
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 04, 2005 - 1:55 am: |
|
Hi Stan,
Actually, I saw (it was ten or twelve years ago)two of Edison's surviving "talkies" which he made about 1910. One was a Civil War film dealing with uncovering a confederate spy in a southern army camp. The camp is for Northerm troops, and the film begins with them singing "Marching Through Georgia". The synchronisation is really lousy, but it was interesting to see how close it came to working. These actors were roughly 35 to 40 years old for the most part, so by the time that THE JAZZ SINGER was made they would be approaching their mid 50s to 60. They were also closer in time to the actual Civil War than any actor of the 35 to 40 age group that I saw in films made between 1932 and 1950. The film (which deals with tricking a man claiming to be a "deaf mute" into revealing he's a spy) was mediocre in developement, but it was only 10 minutes long. I ended rather admiring the guts to put it together, but realizing why it just did not quite work.
The second "talkie" was about a practical joking group of club members hazing a new member by pretending the club is a suicide club. It was sophomoric and dull.
The key to the vocal portion was synchronisation. Until they got that straight, movies could not talk.
Interestingly in 1921 D.W.Griffiths attempted to get Al Jolson to sign up for a picture, inviting him to a movie set he had in Westchester County. Jolson came, stayed the night, and left thoroughly bored by the next day. Griffiths' picture had no interest to him without any talking, and Griffiths could not give him a talking film. This probably explains why Jolson was so willing to work with Warner Brothers in 1927, as he had been watching for the last year as Warners made recorded film scores (for DON JUAN with John Barrymore) and as Fox experimented with talkie short subjects. Jolie knew the technology had finally arrived and the public could finally hear something yet!
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 209
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 6:59 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
It was that Edison Civil War talking picture that I saw a clip from several years ago. They only ran about 30 seconds of it so the sound didn't have time to go that far off. I'm surprised that someone hasn't synchronized the sound in a computer and made a copy of the film with the audio and video matched up as Edison intended.
Too bad they didn't get the sound picture thing figured out earlier, we might have seen many more stage actors from a century ago practicing their craft in the movies. John Barrymore would be a notable exception. He didn't seem mind acting without sound. When you referred to Booth being a restrained actor, I assume you meant he didn't give a near-hamish performance like Barrymore did in most movies I've seen him in. Maybe it was because J.B. was drunk most of the time.
Perhaps Jolson wasn't too keen on doing business with Griffith because he glorified the Klan in Birth of a Nation. The main thing that surprised me about that film was that I could sit and watch a silent movie for three hours.
I saw that Karla Homolka was released yesterday. Twelve years for serial child torture murder - she's suffered enough! I don't see why they had to make a deal with her when they had video tapes of the crimes.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 737
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 7:48 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
As a matter of fact, you are lucky it was only three hours of BIRTH OF A NATION. Griffith's original cut was four hours long, with additional scenes (such as one or two showing New Englanders engaged in the slave trade). It's one of those movies you have to see, but you see it for technical reasons (cross-cutting, etc.) It's like watching Leni Reisenthal's TRIUMPH OF THE WILL. You watch it, and you feel the government it celebrates looks popular and strong enough to last forever - and then you feel sick that you felt that about the what you were watching.
Barrymore's performances, when he was younger and in control, were not that hammy - and still hold up. After 1936 only his comic performances remain good. His best performances (I think) are in the silent period.
If they had any silent films of the late 19th Century I suppose we could have seen Irving and Edwin Booth. Two others I would have liked to have seen were George Fox, the comedienne and clown (best recalled for "Humpty Dumpty") and John McCullough, who was (for awhile) Booth's leading rival in Shakespearean parts. Both Fox and McCullough went insane (Fox from the lead base make-up he used, McCullough - apparently - from syphillis). Actually there is supposed to be surviving film of Beerbohn Tree in MACBETH and of James O'Neill in (you guessed it) THE COUNT OF MONTE CRISTO.
Homolka was interviewed, and her interview was on the internet. She's protesting that she is under too much unfair public observation now. My heart just bleeds for the lady. Maybe we can hide her in the cell with the male killer she betrayed to get that light sentence.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 210
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 6:28 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Poor Ms. Homolka; what a shame. Perhaps we should take up a collection for her. Of course, if life is too tough for her, she can always go back inside.
The only silent Barrymore film I've seen is Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde which is very good but that doesn't give me much of a reference for his work in that medium. Too bad Richard Mansfield didn't live long enough for us to see him in that role.
I've only seen some clips from Triumph of the Will but I can see why Leni Riefenstahl is regarded as a top director, as much as most hate to admit it due to the topic. When she died in 2003 at age 101, the header for the obituary in our paper here called her a misguided genius.
Intellectually you tell yourself that you should divorce good film making from the subject matter as with Griffith and Riefenstahl but I think you have to draw a line somewhere. For instance, what if a great director made a snuff film or a child pornography movie? At least Griffith and Riefenstahl tried to redeem themselves later on.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 738
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 8:07 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
A good silent film with Barrymore, showing his acting at it's height, is BELOVED ROGUE, with Conrad Veidt as Louis XI of France. Barrymore plays Francois Villon. The film is almost as good as IF I WERE KING with Ronald Colman and Basil Rathbone.
As for his sound films, I have never seen TOPAZE or ATTORNEY AT LAW, which were made in the early 30s. I think his Oscar Jaffee in TWENTIETH CENTURY is hysterical ("There are names for people who do those things on trains!", he declares to an annoyed conductor on the 20th Century Ltd. at one point - it's typical of his dialogue and performance). The first scene where he is rehearsing the play with Carole Lombard and the other actors in the theatre will forever destroy one's trust in stage blocking.
SVENGALI (which I saw decades ago) was okay, but I liked the version with Donald Wolfit more. As for GRAND HOTEL and DINNER AT EIGHT he performed more than adequately (although he was too old to be Greta Garbo's lover in GRAND HOTEL). His last good comedy was Mitchell Leisin's MIDNIGHT.
Griffith and Reisenthal made some half-hearted attempts at redeeming themselves. Griffith's INTOLERANCE was supposed to answer his critics who claimed he was a bigot. But he never did a film showing normal African-Americans behaving normally (in fact there are other stereotypes in his later films). Reisenthal did non-political documentaries in her later career, but she always felt that her job was to present the material of the Nuremburg Rallies and the Berlin Olympics in as attractive and powerful a way as she could - and (to give her due) she did.
It's interesting comparing them with Serge Eisenstein. Certainly seeing OCTOBER today one feels uncomfortable about how it presents the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution. But he did, at the end of his life, do IVAN THE TERRIBLE Part II, and thus made an oblique comment about Stalin's regime. And it effectively ended his career of movie making.
Best wishes,
Jeff
|
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 211
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2005 - 7:02 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
The only John Barrymore movies I've seen of late are the Bulldog Drummond films from the late 30s where he had a recurring role as (Inspector) Col. Neilson. Although his character is mostly there for comedic effect, the performance is a little over the top even for that I think.
Stereotypical black characters with demeaning names like Sleep-n-Eat seem to almost be the norn in the many 1930s comedy films I've seen lately. I wonder how the actors actually felt when they were doing them - angry, embarrassed or indiffernt?
Of course, most all ethnic groups got their turn at being stereotyped. Probably the next most maligned were Asians. Roles where made-up Caucasian actors played Asian characters like Charlie Chan, Mr. Moto and Mr. Wong were a lot like that race's blackface or Amos n' Andy. There was one exception in the last film of the Mr. Wong series. Keye Luke got to play the detective in the 1940 release Phantom of Chinatown but I think it was mostly because Boris Karloff wanted to do something else by then.
Best regards,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 741
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2005 - 10:29 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
"Sleep-n-Eat" was Willy Best, who, from what I read, won the respect of his fellow actors (african american and caucasian). Bob Hope, who worked with him in THE GHOST BUSTERS said Best was constantly rehearsing his part so that he could give the best performance he could. Best actually was a supporting actor star in early television, appearing with Charles Farrell and Gale Storm in MY LITTLE MARGIE.
The most curious comment I ever saw on this subject was dealing with Mr. Lincoln Perry, better remembered as "Stepin' Fetchit". He appeared in many films by John Ford, particularly in his trio of comedies that starred Will Rogers in the middle 1930s. People who have read the scripts of JUDGE PRIEST and STEAMBOAT 'ROUND THE BEND find that Ford liked to let Perry invent his own material, and some film historians have suggested that in his exaggeration of supposedly lazy and stupid behavior, Perry was actually spoofing the stereotype. An example of this is in STEAMBOAT 'ROUND THE BEND. Berton Churchill is playing a pompous would-be religious leader called "The New Moses". At one point he falls into the Mississippi. After almost drowning he is helped out by several people including Perry.
As he tries to regain his breath, Perry turns to him, with great solicitude in his voice, and says, "Can I get you a drink of water?" Now, is this Mr. Perry acting stereotypically stupid, or is it him spoofing the image of the dumb stereotype (and if he is, isn't he sticking it to a pompous white guy?).
In the movie, THE SUN SHINE BRIGHT (a remake of JUDGE PRIEST, that starred Charles Winninger in the Will Rogers role), Perry had another moment where he showed a degree of fear and brains that (God help me) I found amusing. Winninger's Judge is holding court, and one of the minor trials deals with an elderly African-American complaining about his son, whom he claims never does anything but play the banjo. This young man decides to demonstrate his talent in this Kentucky courthouse, and starts playing and singing "Marching Through Georgia". Perry plays Winninger's servant, and as he hears this and notes the dismay on Winninger's face (and all the other whites in the court), Perry panicks and starts signalling the young man - finally getting him to play some Stephen Foster tune. The whites calm down, as Perry mops his head.
Somehow the entire sequence was totally unexpected.
There were a series of books I saw years ago about the individual nationality stereotypes in movies (one about Chinese people, one about Italian people, one about Jewish people, one about Black people). It was pretty bad - although I suspect that it being in the U.S. makes it worse to us. In fact every country had stereotypes (and some still do). While watching Griffith's views of Reconstruction in BIRTH OF A NATION is nauseating it was openly condemned in the U.S. by African - American groups and leaders like W.E.B. DuBois. Not too many Jews were able to complain about Veit Hartmann's JEW SUSS or THE ETERNAL JEW.
I think there was a pecking in American racism, with African - Americans at the bottom. Italians were usually either comic (with big families, or big appetites for food, or lovers of music - to the point of singing Verdi or Rossini at the drop of a hat). Jews are always small businessmen who seem to be trying to put one over their customer - but in a humorous way (keep in mind that the studio bosses were mostly Jewish, and probably accepted mild stereotypes to placate their non-Jewish audiences). Germans were either mangling English (Herman Bing) or extremely arrogant (Sig Ruman) to (during the two world wars) deadly (Von Stroheim, Veidt). The Russians were ignored for the most part - the peasants or city people misled by radicals who were power hungry. The image of Russians got better in World War II as our allies, but then the Cold War made them as inhuman as the Germans or Japanese were in the war films (oddly enough the Italians were treated better - look at SAHARA with Humphrey Bogart, where J.Carroll Naish as the Italian prisoner gradually sides with the allied soldiers as opposed to the German prisoner). The Japanese, treated with some dignity in the 1930s, were treacherous and evil post-Pearl Harbor. The French were considered over sexed (although Maurice Chevalier and Charles Boyer were usually likeable in Hollywood films). The English (unless the film was in colonial/American Revolutionary days) were calm and decent or silly humorous (P.G. Woodhouse "silly ass" types). Also, note the stereotyping also reached across American groups - labor union types are loudmouths, big business types (Edward Arnold in MEET JOHN DOE) are threatening our institutions, cowboy heros are constantly stopping greedy bad guys from taking over ranches (usually owned by women). Stereotypes were all over the place.
I've never seen the Mr. Wong films. I used to like the Moto and Chan films. I also have not seen the Bulldog Drummond films with John Barrymore.
Best regards,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 212
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 08, 2005 - 9:02 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I knew that Best was Sleep-n-Eat and I used to watch My Little Margie on TV when I was a kid but I don't recall seeing him on the show. One could see where Stepin' Fetchit might have been spoofing in his roles but, if it's the case, it certainly gained him no respect. I guess Mantan Moreland would be the other main actor in the black stereotype field.
I've only seen clips but I'd like to see some of the Negro Cinema releases from the 1950s and before. The closest I came to this niche cinema was when I saw Stormy Weather with Lena Horne.
Speaking of stereotypes, I remember the Soviets used to pick their ugliest actors to portray Americans in the movies they were putting out in the 50s and 60s. If they needed to cast an actor in the role of someone from the U.S., their equivelent of Rondo Hatton was sure to get a call.
One time, when discussing Mr. Moto with a Japanese friend of mine, I asked her if there were any movies in her country that had Asian actors made up to portray Caucasians and she said she thought there were but couldn't name any. The closest I could find in an American film was Black Dragons from 1942. In that movie, Bela Lugosi plays a NAZI plastic surgeon who operates on Japanese men to make them look Caucasian so they can infiltrate America more easily and act as spies. It's not a bad film but in this example Asian actors play the roles pre-op to be replaced by Caucasian actors post-op.
Best wishes,
Stan
(Message edited by Sreid on July 08, 2005) |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 744
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 09, 2005 - 1:18 am: |
|
Hi Stan,
If you have a chance, look at a comment I wrote regarding Raoul Walsh's film HIGH SIERRA. I noted that the dialogue in that film is not as memorable as that in THE MALTESE FALCON or CASABLANCA, but that there was a sense of fatalism in the script (based on a novel by the author of LITTLE CAESAR, W.E.Burnett). The most effective speech in the film is about a dog that Ida Lupino and Humphrey Bogart adopt - a cute little dog - whose previous owners have all died in tragic ways. The speech is actually a key to the spirit of the story, and it is delivered by Best - but he has to deliver it in a stereotype character projection, so the effect is still there but it leaves (nowadays) a bad taste in one's mouth.
I never saw BLACK DRAGONS, but I have read about it. It actually has a curious twist to it. The Japanese agents are being groomed to replace kidnapped American business leaders, so that the U.S. war effort will be weakened. However, Japan requires Lugosi's services (since he works for it's main ally) because he is the world's best plastic surgeon. But the film really sideswipes an issue that never really got dealt with regarding the Berlin - Tokyo axis. Hitler and his closest aids and advisors hated all non-Germans or non-anglo saxons. The alliance with Japan was one of mutual advantage. The Japanese did not really trust westerners, and were fully aware of German views of them (in World War I, when Japan was allied with France and Britain, German cartoons showed them as chattering monkeys). In BLACK DRAGONS this tension finally explodes. The Japanese decide that Lugosi (who is their ally, after all) is disposable, and try to kill him. He resents their ingratitude, and becomes his own avenger, going after each agent and killing them. Ironically this Nazi actually ends up being (from the standpoint of an American audience) an allied anti-hero of ours.
[Ironically too for the sake of Lugosi - in his native Hungary he was a left of center socialist. He left Hungary in the early 1920s, presumably after the overthrow of the left wing government of Bela Kun. This aspect of his life never got into any of his movies.]
From what I read, as late as the 1980s Russian films still used anti-American stereotypes. One of them had the U.S. ambassador revealled as aiding criminals and terrorists, and screaming about diplomatic immunity as he is revealled in his true colors at the conclusion of the film.
STORMY WEATHER (like CABIN IN THE SKY and HALLELUJAH and THE GREEN PASTURES) was a Hollywood feature film, not a small company film like those of Phillipeaux. I think that was how he spelled his name - the African American producer/director who made films for African American audiences, that starred Stephin Fetchit, Butterfly McQueen, Paul Robeson (silent films in his case), and other Black stars. There is also some silent films starring Bert Williams, the first African American stage star.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 213
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, July 09, 2005 - 7:53 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I have Black Dragons on DVD and watched it about a week ago. In the film, the Japanese also have a double of Lugosi penned up should they need him. The lead "Asian" in the movie is a white guy in make-up here also.
Yes, the German - Japanese Axis was certainly just a marriage of convenience. I've heard that a lot of Japanese didn't hold Westerners in very high esteem either. If the Axis had won the war, I wonder how long it would have taken Hitler to double-cross Japan like he did the Soviet Union. I believe, the only country, as a whole, that willingly sided with Germany in both World Wars was Bulgaria. Austria-Hungary had been splintered, some parts sided with Germany and others with the Allies. Italy, Japan and Turkey/Ottoman Empire switched sides, considering Germany as the hub.
I think American films of the Cold War era tended to portay Soviets as brutish types as well so I guess it was a fare trade. I can't remember his name but there was a rather low level American actor who defected to the Soviet Union some time around 1970 and became a big movie star over there. He was not ugly and usually played the part of an American who was the victim of our "repressive system".
Regarding Stormy Weather, yes, I knew it wasn't a true example of the Negro Cinema that you cited. I was just referring to it as the closest thing I've seen to that genre to date.
I checked out your comment on IMDb and found it enlightening. I love anything with Ida Lupino in it.
Best wishes,
Stan
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 745
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 09, 2005 - 9:46 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I have frequently thought (and sweated at the thought) of an Axis victory in 1942-43 had German and Japanese luck held up (and their leadership improved). Fortunately it didn't, but (as the Duke of Wellington said about what the battle of Waterloo was like), "It was a damned rum near thing!"
If you look a review I did on the IMDb board, about an atrocious wartime film called HITLER, DEAD OR ALIVE, that starred Ward Bond (who deserved better roles and films), Warren Hymer, Russell Hicks, and Bobs Watson (as Adolf - as usual), there was a line of dialog which was odd to have been thrown in. But during World War II, for some reason, the Italians were given a free pass that was not shared by the Germans or Japanese (usually) regarding war guilt. Americans tended to point to Mussolini as the only Italian who was a war monger - that he had considerable support amidst Italian Fascisti (at least until 1943) was ignored. I can only think of two films in the war where an Italian agent acts sinisterly. Eduardo Cianelli, in the film THEY GOT ME COVERED (with Bob Hope) is pretty grim - he kills a stage star who was about to reveal the truth about an axis spy ring by throwing a knife inside a floral bouquet at her when she completes a song on stage. The other was J. Edward Bromberg in CLOAK AND DAGGER, who Gary Cooper has to kill in order to complete his mission in wartime Italy. Those are the only two times I recall seeing a negative image of an Italian. But in HITLER, DEAD OR ALIVE, Bobs Watson, in a tirade about his future plans, mentions double crossing Mussolini. This film was terrible - so bad, it just remains bad - but that line got to me.
Hitler would always have been reasonably kind (given his personality as Hitler) to Mussolini, who was a model to him of a successful right wing dictator in the war years (in retrospect, the successful right wing dictators in the war years were Franco and Salazar, both of whom retained power until they died in their beds). Mussolini was okay, but the Italians were not.
Hitler was an Austrian by birth, and for most of World War I the Austrians had creamed Italy's armies - until the battle of Caparetto in 1917.
Hitler felt that Italians were not military enough to win (or deserve to win) the empire Mussolini wished to restore to them around the Mediterranean Sea and into Africa. When he saved Il Duce from an allied prison in 1944, he did not mind giving orders to his German commander Kesselring to kill any Italians who did not support the Fascist "Republic of Salo". Kesselring would have serious legal problems after the war because of this order.
So that film actually did reflect, in part, Hitler's animosity to one of his two closest allies. With the Japanese the feeling was stimulated more by his total racism - they were the wrong skin color. When word came (in February 1942) of Britain's disastrous defeat at Singapore, Hitler did not enjoy the news. He told his intimates he really wished he and Britain were allies, because he would have enjoyed helping them defeat the Japanese. So it would have been a matter of time for him to have turned his attention about the enemy over the horizon. But technically they were allied. In 1943 an agreement was made on a Japanese submarine in the Indian Ocean about splitting the Asian land mass through India between the two Axis countries.
All I can say, in retrospect, is lot's of luck. The population of each country needed to do such a swallowing job was close to one billion people each, and neither had the population. To have tried "final solutions" at that distance would have been absolutely disastrous, because of the number of rebellions that it would have constantly stimulated. My guess is that within fifteen years at best a war weariness would have caused Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany to "declare themselves victors" and go home to nurse their wounds. But it would have been even harder for both to have maintained control over the areas closer to their power centers. By 1970 both countries would have been fighting for their lives with populations reduced to maybe twenty million each against hugh numbers of non Aryan and non Japanese neighbors. In fact, it might have resulted in those European neighbors deciding that the last trains into Auschwitz, Belsen, Dachau, and Treblinka would carry Germans only until none were left.
The model in the back of my mind for this is what happened to Napoleon in 1808 - 1815. At the height of his success he bungled first into the Peninsula War in Spain and Portugal, which rapidly became a difficult guerilla affair he just could not put down. The other was bungling was the invasion of Russia, which opened up a second guerilla war - and one that was reinforced by German, Polish, and Austrian peoples as Napoleon returned from Russia. It really never pays to declare unlimited war aims without unlimited population superiority over everyone else. Bonaparte learned this the hard way. My guess is Hitler and Tojo would have learned it the hard way too.
Another thought crossed my mind - one that the Allies apparently never thought of using as a weopon against Hitler's theories of racial superiority. Say the unthinkable happened, and he won, and destroyed the Jews, the Slavs, the French, the British, the Americans, the Japanese - everyone. There were only "Germanic People" left. Who can say that Hitler or one of his madder successors would have suddenly turned around one day and said something like, "Why do we classify "Rhinelanders" and "Swabians" as Germans? They are not true Aryans?" Or some northern Protestant German, recalling the Thiry Years War, had not questioned calling Austrians, Bavarians, Wurttenburgers, and other "South - Catholic" Germans as real Germans? [Of course, as Hitler himself was an Austrian, the reverse was equally possible.] At some future point there might have been a serious (and total) civil war over who were the real Aryan Germans who were to rule the world. If so I would have liked to have watched the fun happen.
Actually the Bulgarians are not so easy to catagorize as totally committed allies to Hitler.
King Boris died under mysterious circumstances when he met the Fuhrer in 1943 and had an argument with him about strategy (including the fate of Bulgaria's Jewish population - Boris did not plan to turn them over to the ovens). As a matter of fact, Bulgaria shares with Denmark the glory of being the only two countries in World War II that did so much to protect their native Jewish populations (Finland is third - Yeah Mannerheim*!) so that more than 90 % of each survived the war. More French Jews or Dutch Jews died in concentration camps than Bulgarian.
Says something there.
[*Marshall Mannerheim actually threatened, at one point, that if a single Finnish Jew was touched by the Nazis, he would sign a peace treaty and alliance with Stalin and help lead the Russian Armies. When Himmler led a personal mission (so secret he did not take the trouble of getting diplomatic papers or a passport to back him up) to Finland, to convince Mannerheim to change his mind, the Finnish General ordered the arrest and detention of this "unknown, illegal foreign alien" and sent Himmler back to Germany with a note that "this alien was making preposterous comments that he actually was the third ranking member of the Nazi Government without any legal proof on him - possibly the Germans wanted the man as a criminal and a troublemaker? No further attempt was made to change Mannerheim's mind.]
I forget the American actor you referred to - I think he died in the late 1980s, just as Gorbachev's "Glastnost" was beginning to break down the Cold War. Or it may have been a similar American turncoat who became a singing phenomenon in East Germany with his anti-American songs. I remember he was on a segment of "60 Minutes" back then.
Best wishes,
Jeff
|
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 215
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 7:28 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
One qualification on the countries that switched sides pertaining to Germany in the World Wars, Russia/Soviet Union could be said to be in that category from mid-1939 to mid-1941. I always wondered why Britain was so hot to declare war on Germany when they invaded Poland but completely ignored the Soviet Union for doing the same thing at the same time. If Edward VIII had still been on the throne, I wonder if Hitler wouldn't have gotten a pass for doing that. Officially he had no say in the matter but he certainly could have wielded some influence. It's a good thing he was banished to the Bahamas to get caught up in the Oakes affair.
Arguably, Germany was the most advanced technologically and was the best force man-for-man at the start of the war but, you're right, they came up short in the manpower department. They also lacked natural resources. Another handicap all the Axis powers, except Japan, had was that they couldn't get their ships to the open ocean without passing through a choke point.
It was a little puzzling why Italians got off when it came to War Crimes Trials. What about the use of poison gas in East Africa in the late 1930s among other things? Mussolini and Clarita got an expedited verion of that I guess.
Interesting that Germany and Japan were dividing up Asia when their forces were still 2500 miles apart. The only joint engagement they participated in was a minor action in the Indian Ocean where some German commerce raiders and Japanese submarines carried out coordinated attacks on some Allied transport ships.
If the Axis had won the war and then turned on each other, I don't think they would have fought for 15 years because either Germany or Japan would have developed nuclear weapons and wiped the other out. Of course, they could have developed them at the same time and poisoned the world with a protracted nuclear exchance. Another possibility, if they had atomic parity, they might have had a Cold War of their own.
Best regards,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 746
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 10:20 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I do have a book about Italian War Crime trials, which I bought five or six years ago, but have not read as yet. One day I will - but from the book jacket it appears that like the German trials the Allies eventually softened and let many of the thugs off lightly.
The Germans could have figured a way to counteract the choke position of the Baltic to the North Sea - especially after they took over France - they had the coasts of France to work with too. They also had better designed battleships and submarines. The problem was that their Fuhrer had absolutely no concept of sea power except to use his vessels as commerce destroyers - a partly good idea, but not sufficient to win a war. Look at his waste of his battleship Bismarck. It was accompanied by the Prince Eugen on that cruise, but it should have linked up with five or six vessels (the Tirpitz, wasted up in a Norwegian fjiord was one that should have been linking up to it). If they had, the Bismarck probably would have successfully completed the cruise, and more British ships might have been sunk with the HOOD.
Hitler was making it a combination of sea trial and advertisement of his nation's millitary might. He wasted a magnificent battleship there.
The Japanese certainly had a really advanced poison warfare program - using Chinese and captured allied prisoners as guinea pigs. At the end of the war, the head of the Japanese program personally surrendered to the U.S., and used his programs data as a bargaining chip. The Japanese general is the only veteran of World War II who was able (in later years) to have a pension from Japan, and a pension from the U.S. CIA for his information.
The history channel sometimes has an interesting program about Japanese super weopons that were on their drawing boards, but that never got built in time to be used. They included a trans pacific bomber that was to take off from a submarine. Also cluster bombs for large American cities, to spread plague vacilli. They could have given the Nazis a run for their money on weoponry.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 216
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, July 11, 2005 - 6:41 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
You're right, the Germans certainly squandered their surface fleet during the war as did the Italians to some degree. The ridiculous business with the Tirpitz being the most telling. To spend all the time, funds as well as effort building it and then being afraid to use it because it might be lost is like giving money to the enemy.
That war criminal Shiro Ishii really did cut a Hell of a deal for himself and we made a deal with the Devil. I hope it was worth it and we learned all we could about his chemical and biological program.
Biological weapons of various sorts were used throughout history but Japan was the only country to use them on orders from the top when they dropped those cannisters filled with plague infested fleas on Chinese cities during the war. They also used Lewisite and probably other forms of poison gas in China according to many sources.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 747
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 11, 2005 - 9:37 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I can only say that Shiro Ishii was the Japanese equivalent to Werner Von Braun at the end of World War II, except that rockets have far more benign uses (like interplanatory exploration - which Von Braun actually was interested in) than poison gases and chemical warfare. My guess is that the Americans realized that if they didn't take this information the Russians or Communist Chinese might get it. Ishii was extroadinarily sharp and lucky. The Chinese are still trying to get restitution for the wartime victims of the poison gas/chemical warfare programs and tactics. But then, the Japanese still hold tightly to the myth of the war to defend the Japanese homeland - a war that actually lasted seven months, and began only after the Japanese were pried out of their own imperial conquests.
The Italian navy's problem was not so much being wasted by Mussolini (who apparently wished it was used more). The Italians had few volunteers for their navy, and in the 1930s, when battleships were sent out on maneuvers with only half a crew to run them. When war came volunteers did not surface fast enough. But the Italian fleet itself was bombed in 1941 (I think at Tarento) by the R.A.F. Italy's naval might never recovered (and the Japanese started considering a raid by their planes on Pearl Harbor).
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 217
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 5:59 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Yes, Ishii was somewhat like Von Braun except that, if he'd been convicted of his crimes, he'd almost definitely have gotten the death penalty. Von Braun was insulated enough from Nordhausen that, if he'd been convicted of anything, I doubt that he'd have done more than a year or two in prison.
The first time I saw Werner Von Braun was on the space travel programs that Walt Disney telecast in the mid 1950s. Perhaps I should be ashamed to say but I found him to be a very personable and likable man. Of course, it was to his advantage to present himself in the fashion of a Space Age "Mr. Wizard". In fact, thinking back to that old Saturday morning TV show, he actually seemed a lot friendlier than Don Herbert.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 754
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 8:54 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
Hope you enjoyed the visitor who came.
I may add that Von Braun also has one other "honor" Ishii certainly never got. There is a film biography I AIM AT THE STARS with Curt Jurgens as Von Braun. His Nazi past is brought up (and dampened down in the film. I remember his closest associate and friend in the film is Herbert Lom, who only breaks with him in 1945, when Lom feels that it is more patriotic to stay in East Germany than to go to the U.S. I am still trying to figure out the logic of Lom's character, as he is first going to spend ten years in Russia helping their rocket program. Where is there any patriotism in that?
The biggest blots on Von Braun's record in World War II was the large number of fatalities in London due to his V1 and V2 rockets, and the slave labor conditions at Peedemunde (I think that's how it is spelled). I really find it hard to defend him on either point (although he could easily have been imprisoned or executed). But then look at Werner Heisenberg (of the "uncertainty" principle fame). He looks like he may have purposely delayed some Nazi physics programs - there is some question about this.
[I'm a baseball fan, and a number of years ago I bought a biography, THE CATCHER WAS A SPY, about
Moe Berg, who had a career as an U.S. agent in the O.S.S. He was sent to Switzerland to attend a lecture of Heisenberg's, in order to test him out by questions to see if he was close to getting a Nazi A bomb. If Heisenberg was, Berg was to assassinate him. To prepare for the mission, Berg (who was an extremely smart man) was given a crash course in nuclear physics. He attended the lecture, and afterwards questioned Heisenberg on theoretical matters. He would report that Heisenberg seemed to be uninterested in these theories being developed at Los Alamos.
Years later, the biographer found Heisenberg's diaries, and how the physics genius mentioned that the lecture was a successful one, except for being pestered by some idiot who barely understood physics!]
I rarely watched Mr. Wizard - maybe twice. I enjoyed shows about history. Back in the late 1960s there was a two season weekly show on channel 13 about American History with a lecture on a different subject (in chronological order) by Dr. Robert Shenton of Columbia University. I really enjoyed that one. I wonder if the episodes still exist.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 218
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 8:48 pm: |
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Hi Jeff,
Yes, I had a good visit, thank you.
Is your channel 13 an educational one? We didn't have one of those here until the late 60s so that's probably why I don't remember those history shows.
I wasn't aware that there was a movie about Von Braun but did know that some of his cohorts went into the Soviet space program. When we launched Explorer I in 1958 and Sputnik II was still in orbit, the joke was, if both satellites met in space, they would both speak German. It's interesting to note that they'd developed the expertise to launch a man into suborbital space flight in the early 1940s. If they had taken another path, man could have been on the moon by 1955.
Regarding Von Braun's "war crimes", although I don't think it was proven that he was directly over forced labor, he was aware of it and was willing to "profit" from its use. That alone is inexcusable. My dad was in the Fifth Armored Division and they went into Buchenwald as it was being liberated. He said it was his impression that most of the forced laborers were political prisoners, usually Communists.
As for Von Braun being involved in attacks on civilians with V1s and V2s, he was certainly guilty of that. Although that might technically be a war crime, I doubt that the Allies would have had the nerve to charge him for that when they probably targeted and killed far more civilians by air than the Axis powers did.
I remember reading that, since Britain had no defense against V2 attacks, Churchill wanted to retaliate by using poison gas on the Germans. Cooler heads calmed him down and the plan was nixed.
Maybe with monsters like Mengele on the loose, Von Braun seemed like small fry. When I wrote about the 10 most wanted (fate unknown) from the 1940s for AMW, the only war criminal I had on the the list was Alois Brunner who may still be alive in Syria under the name of Dr. Georg Fischer. There was a report of his death in the 90s but there's a suspicion it could have been put out to take the heat off. I think INTERPOL still has a Red Notice (order to capture) out on him. With all the thousands involved, I'm sure there are also some members of the Einsatzgruppen mobile murder squads still alive as well.
I saw the show on the History Channel about the man sent to assassinate Heisenberg if they thought he was too far along on the A bomb. I'm surprised they didn't take him out anyway just in case. Maybe they thought they could use him after the war like they did Ishii and Von Braun.
Did you see the book that came out earlier this year in which the author claimed that the Germans actually tested a nuclear weapon right at the end of the war but didn't have time to get it in a deliverable form? Pretty far fetched I'd say.
Best wishes,
Stan
(Message edited by Sreid on July 21, 2005) |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 755
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 9:45 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I have heard of Alois Brunner, and recall the rumors that the former President of Syria (Assad) used him as an advisor regarding the war with Israel. Perhaps his son had some dealings with him too. If he is still alive I suspect he would probably not be good as an advisor anymore.
Supposedly Berg decided not to take out Heisenberg because he did not seem to be aware of the processes the U.S. was using to create an atomic weopon (I suppose he was still considering the use of heavy water). On the other hand, Heisenberg is supposed to have purposely misled the Nazi government about recent strides in atomic physics - perhaps the U.S. Government was aware of this (but then, why send Berg on the mission?).
Von Braun was not small fry. He had something of value for the U.S., so he was the beneficiary of American "blindness" towards his past. Just like Ishii had been. It was only those Nazis who could not possibly give anything to the U.S. that were condemned to death or to prison or given sentences in abstencia. What could Mengele offer? His researches into twins? His work on how long a person can survive in sub-freezing sea water? If he had been captured he probably would have been executed. It is the same with figures like Kaltenbrunner at Nuremburg. Although he thoroughly deserved dangling from a rope, Kaltenbrunner very bitterly declared that he was the stand in for Hitler and Himmler as the surviving head of the Gestapo. I remember reading that Himmler managed to convince himself (as the war was nearing it's end) that he could make a private deal with the U.S. and England because they would need a continental police chief after the war. Nobody took him up on his offer. Interestingly enough, the fourth man in the Gestapo, General Gehlen, after a period of denazification, ended up the head of the West German secret police and an advisor to the U.S. and Western Europe regarding Russian/Eastern European spy activity. His profile was low keyed compared to his two chiefs.
The U.S. also was tempted to experiment with poison gas, but stopped after a tragic disaster in 1944 at Bari, Italy. A ship loaded with cannisters of poison gas was attacked by German bombers in Bari's harbor. The gas spread over the city killing hundreds of civilians. The Nazis made much propaganda out of that incident.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 219
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 8:17 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
When I referred to Von Braun as "small fry", I was ranking him as a potential war criminal compared to Mengele not his worth to the Allies. I always thought Von Braun was a better model for Dr. Strangelove than Teller. In respect to hideous human experimentation, Ishii was actually more like Mengele than Von Braun. It's hard to believe Mengele wouldn't have gotten the death penalty if he'd been captured but, then again, that horrible Ilse Koch was not executed. By the way, have you ever seen that exploitation film Ilse She-Wolf of the SS? I've resisted viewing it although I'm slightly tempted.
Regarding Mengele's cold water human experiments,
I remember several years ago there was controversy as to whether those results should be studied for possible use. It seems immoral but if it could save lives it could be said to be immoral not to use it as well. I believe in the end they did use the data.
I knew Himmler put out feelers trying to cut a deal at the end of the war. What a joke! Instead, he executed himself like that propagandist Goebbels did.
Goebbels' sister-in-law wound up married to Dr. Sam Sheppard. The girls in that family must have been attracted to dangerous men.
Speaking of propaganda, it always amazed me that Tokyo Rose, Axis Sally and Lord Ha Ha were all at one time Americans. I think Joyce tried to say he was still an American but the Brits executed him for treason anyway.
I believe that Capital Punishment is still on the books in England for treason, piracy and arson on the Royal Docks so perhaps they'll charge those London bombers with treason rather than murder. I know they once considered that "loophole" when dealing with the IRA.
One last thing on the German nuclear program, when they sent that submarime full up U-235 to Japan at the end, I wonder if they hoped that they might win the conflict and come rescue Germany from Allied occupation. I think Doenitz called it back though, sort of like the Japanese called the sub back that had four single engined bombers on board with the mission to bomb the Panama Canal.
Best wishes,
Stan
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 756
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 11:23 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
My guess is that the U-235 journey was just another desperate, and half - thought out plan of the dying Nazi regime. Hitler and his cronies were literally clutching at all straws in those last months and weeks and days and hours. On April 12th, when Hitler heard that FDR had died he immediately claimed it was a sign from providence (and he rarely talked of providence at all) that the tied had turned. His reason was that in 1762, when Frederick the Great was facing destruction from France, Austria, and Russia, Czar Peter III of Russia was overthrown (and later murdered) by his wife, Catherine the Great. Peter had been a keen supporter of the anti-Prussian alliance, but Catherine couldn't care less of it, and left the alliance. Hitler felt that Roosevelt's death would thus cause the Allies to collapse. No such luck of course. Also there was a reliance on secret weapons, which were misused. The world's first jet propelled fighter plane, which was in production in 1944, could have changed the course of the war as a fighter plane. Instead, Hitler insisted it be used as a bomber.
See, they grasped at straws and made half-stupid plans.
I don't know much about the current state of Britain's treason laws (there has been no really big treason trial for nearly half a century (I think Nunn May's was the last one). By the way, did you know that in 1776 a fellow named "John the Painter" was paid (supposedly) by Benjamin Franklin and Silas Deane (our Ministers to France) to set fire to the Portsmouth Dock Yard.
He started to, but was captured - and eventually tried, convicted, and hanged.
Axis Annie and Tokyo Rose were American Citizens (from what I have seen Tokyo Rose was a very unwilling collaborator at best - she eventually was able to get her citizenship back). Joyce was born here, but was brought up in England, and spent most of his life in England - and was involved in Fascist politics in England. But he kept that American passport as a feeble type of protection. If England had lost he would have returned to England as a ranking figure in the Fascist Government of England's Propaganda Ministry, just like Julian Amory would have been an influential figure in government circles. It was really impossible to see how he could have gotten away with that passport defense. And if he had, what would have prevented the U.S. from prosecuting him as a traitor. Perhaps he would not have gotten executed, but would he have really enjoyed hard labor in a prison?
I had heard that there was a revival of interest in that data about surviving in freezing water. But it seems to have stopped getting any attention after a few discussions in the press.
I suspect it probably has been used somehow.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 220
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 7:22 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
No, I wasn't aware of the Franklin financed act of sabotage. I did see in yesterday's paper that they've just found arsenic in the hair of George III. No way, as yet, of telling if its ingestion could have been accidental, voluntary or something more sinister. Perhaps the Regency could have been induced.
It was very stupid of Hitler to try to turn the ME-262, a superior fighter, into a mediocre bomber. Especially since they already had a purpose built twin engined jet bomber in the Arado-234. I think it was the only pressurized plane in the war, other than the B-29, and for that reason it was also used as a high altitude reconnaissance plane. They also had a four engined derivative in the test flight stage.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 759
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 9:26 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
First they found evidence of arsenic in Napoleon's remains in St. Helena. Now some in George III's hairs. A serial poisoner who attacked world leaders? A few years later Lord Castlereigh died from a cut throat, due to suicidal delusions. But H. Montgomery Hyde (in his book THE STRANGE DEATH OF LORD CASTLEREIGH) made the discovery that the suicide was due to a threat to his Lordship that he'd be accused of sodomy by a blackmail gang. Possibly there are wheels within wheels in Regency England, Post Napoleonic Europe.
Oddly enough there is another mystery tied to that business about John the Painter. I mentioned Franklin's fellow diplomat Silas Deane. Few Americans remember him. From 1775 to 1779 Deane was in the thick of European diplomacy for the Continental Congress. But he got involved in some questionable arms deals (some with Caron de Beaumarchaise, the dramatist who created THE BARBER OF SEVILLE and THE MARRIAGE OF FIGARO). Then, in 1780, he was somehow convinced to switch sides. Branded a traitor, he was stuck in France until 1789 when he got permission to return to American to defend his reputation. He did begin his voyage, but he died suddenly while the boat was in English waters. One writer has suggested that Deane may have been surviving by blackmailing Franklin's old secretary, Edward Bancroft. Bancroft had been spying on the Americans while working for his old friend Franklin in Paris, but he too had been involved in stock manipulations like Deane, so he may have delayed information on certain matters to benefit himself. He may also have been involved in the plot of John the Painter. If so, and Deane (to defend his reputation) said so publicly in the U.S., Bancroft would face execution under British law. Bancroft (an expert on plants and agriculture) may have poisoned Deane to silence him.
Best wishe,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 221
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 6:45 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Yes, I remember seeing that arsenic was found in Napoleon's remains as well. I guess the first question to ask is, was the ingestion accidental, homicidal or willful? Arsenic was touted as an elixir and aphrodisiac in some circles during the nineteenth century so the latter can't be ruled out even if it wasn't a suicidal act. I know that this factor was brought out by the defense in the Maybrick case.
Touching back on war crimes trials, as we know them today, I can't think of any example prior to Henry Wertz in the Civil War. Can you think of any before that? To some degree, Wertz was only working with what the Confederate government was giving him but, since I had a great-uncle die in Andersonville, he's not going to get much sympathy from me.
I also had a great-great-grandfather who came back unscathed from the war. He was in F Company of the 152nd Infantry. I know he fought in the Battle of Chattanooga but I'm not sure of where else. My great-grandmother was still alive when I was small and she used to tell of seeing him come home after the war "carrying that big gun"; an 1863 .58 caliber Springfield rifle. She was five years old at the time.
I rented The Zodiac Killer (2004) to watch tonight, which I hope is better than the first version. It would be nearly impossible to be otherwise.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 762
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 9:23 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
Regarding Napoleon, as far as I know the findings about the arsenic were centered on either accident or homicide, not suicide. Napoleon may have had wall paper or wall paint at St. Helena or the shade known as "Paris Green". If so, it was quite poisonous with arsenic. However it would have affected others in Napoleon's entourage who resided at Longwood.
The murder theory is tempting, as there was a constant threat that he still might be able to escape and return to France. But who was behind it? Louis XVIII or his brother, the future Charles X of France. Or Louis-Joseph, Prince de Conde (father of the Duc d'Enghien)? Or Metternich? Too many potential suspects here.
As for Captain Wirtz, he appears to be the first notable defendant in a war crime trial in the U.S. I cannot think of any similar situation that was known prior to that in any other country. The fact is that up to 1865 it was rare that anyone faced legal repercussions from their actions or crimes in war. In the Thirty Years War there were numerous atrocities on both sides, such as the sacking of Magdeberg (which shocked Europe), as there was the contemporary atrocities of Bogdan Chmielski (I think that's how his last name is spelled) the Cossack leader in Eastern Europe, against Poles and Jews. Also there were the massacre of Irish defenders at Drogheda by Cromwell - which is still a matter of controversy. But nobody was ever tried for these. Nor any trials for war crimes in the War of Spanish Succession, or in the Seven Years War or in Napoleons Wars.
The key to modern war crimes were the feelings of anger directed at the defeated Central Powers in 1918. The Allies did try to bring the leaders of Germany, Austria - Hungary, Turkey, and Bulgaria to book, but they were stymied from the first. Germany's Kaiser fled to Holland, which had been neutral for the whole war. Holland refused to turn him over. There was a weird incident in 1919 when three drunken American doughboys (one an ex-Tennessee Congressman, another the future owner of the Brooklyn Dodgers, Larry MacPhail) actually tried to drag the Kaiser out of his refuge at Doorn, but were driven out by Dutch police. A few lesser atrocities were subject to trials (the deliberate wrecking of lifeboats by a U-boat that sank a hospital ship was one). But nothing could be really accomplished. The turning point was the signing of the Kellogg - Briand Treaty outlawing War in 1926. This treaty was hooted at for years, but it did give a basis for war crimes trials. You see, when the treaty was signed Gustave Stresseman (Weimar Germany's Foreign Minister) signed it. Hitler and the Nazi were the last legally elected rulers of Weimar Germany. Therefore, there was a basis for the Nuremburg Trials. It has been kept ever since for the globe.
Sorry about your great-granduncle. At least your other ancestor, your great great grand-father survived. Did he serve in the Army of the Tennessee, or the Army of the Cumberland?
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 222
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 7:58 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
That Zodiac movie was a major disappointment. Althought they claimed it was shot on digital, it looked like video tape. Once Upon a Time in Mexico was shot on digital and it looked as good as film if not better. I wonder if anyone can make a good movie about the Zodiac case. We still have the film based on Graysmith's book due out in the next year or so.
If your looking for a sinister aspect to the arsenic in George III's hair, you don't have as many suspects as with Napoleon, I don't believe. Mainly the Prince Regent or someone acting in his behalf.
When you mentioned the Kaiser retiring to his farm in Holland it brought back something that has always puzzeled me. That is, why could Germany sucessfully fight a war on two fronts but not on one after the Russian capitulation? Not only did they have half the ground to engage, they had all the extra manpower and resources from the vast territory that the Russians ceded to them in the armistice. The American forces were entering the fight but they were not yet a massive presence in November of 1918.
Regarding my great-great grandfather's Army unit, he was in Company F of the 152nd Illinois Volunteer Infantry. Our family has his gun, bayonet with sheath and U.S. belt buckle. We also have his GAR belt buckle. His name was Alexander Hamilton McClure and he was mustered out in Memphis on September 11, 1865.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 763
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 9:27 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
Now that you mention that your great-great grandfather's last name was McClure, I wonder if he was related to the editor who ran the magazine of that name (McCLURE'S) at the turn of the century. It was a very popular magazine.
George III would have a potentially sitting duck candidate for murder, as he was insane, blind, and deaf, so that he had little real use for any British Government, and (by 1820) his wife (who would have been his biggest protector) was dead for two years. But it is curious that nobody has discussed the possibility that his death in January 1820 was anything but natural. I think it is because his death is like a afterthought.
Curiously enough, at that time, other events would dominate the public attention. The Duc de Berri, the oldest son of the future Charles X of France, was stabbed to death by a mad old man - a Bonapartist who hated the Bourbons, and wanted the family to die out (ironically, Berri's wife was pregnant, and their son, the future Comte de Paris, would be born with in a few months. Then in February, Arthur Thistlewood and his fellow conspirators would try to set the Cato Street Plot (to assassinate the Prime Minister and his cabinet, and to seize the mint) into action, only to be arrested by secret police and soldiers. George III's demise was distinctly the least interesting event of the month!
You are slightly correct in your question. From 1914 to 1918 the Germans were stalled on the Western Front and somewhat more successful on the Eastern Front, except that the Bolshevik Revolution (which Germany aided by letting Lenin back into Russia) led to a further weakening of the Russian people. So that, even though the Russian army was reorganized by Trotsky and others (like Aleksei Brusilov, Tsarist Russia's best general in World War I), they could not prevent Germany dictating the peace at Brest Litovsk. This was the most humiliating peace treaty that Russia ever was forced to sign (the Crimean War peace was less humiliating, as here Russia had to watch as thousands of miles of European territory were stripped away from it). The Baltic states, the Ukraine, Finland, Poland, all were taken from Russia.
But Trotsky and Lenin agreed to the terms of Brest Litovsk because they knew it was a temporary loss (or seemed that way). They had to put their own house in order (win the Russian Civil War). Also, they were aware that Germany was on borrowed time.
You are wrong about America's armed presence. By March 1918, the Germans were aware that the American Expeditionary Force would be arriving in mass numbers by the late summer. Ludendorff and Hindenburg created the plan for the Spring "Ludendorff" Offensive. Supposedly, with all the forces from the Eastern Front taken out of that now peaceful area, and transferred to the Western Front, the Germans would have a two or three to one advantage over the French and British. This was true, and the German advance from May to July 1918 was remarkable - truly the biggest in the history of World War I on the western front. But the turning point, again, was the second battle at the Marne. The Germans had not been able to relax and consolidate their gains. As a result, at the Second Marne, they ran out of fighting will. The British and French won the battle, and began to retake territory. By August Americans were coming in, and soon we had battles like Belleau Wood and the Argonne Forrest Campaign where Americnas confronted the Germans. By September the Germans realized they could no longer hold onto the lines they had held in France since 1914/15. As these began to crack (and as Allied troops in Italy and the Balkans against Austria, in Greece against the Bulgarians, and in Asia Minor against the Ottomans, began winning) the Germans and Austrians began sounding out peace feelers. The result was the armistice of November 11, 1918. The Germans did not want allied troops advancing through Germany (like they did in 1944-45 in World War II). So Germany was saved from destruction by twenty years, and - since the armistice and surrender were signed by civilians, although Ludendorff said his men would no longer fight - the unfortunate legend of "the stab in the back" defeating the Germans in 1918 was born.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 223
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 5:20 pm: |
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Hi Jeff,
I don't know if my great-great grandfather was related to the McClures of magazine fame. He was a farmer himself as far as I know.
The newspaper article I read about George III claimed that the arsenic may have been the cause of his insanity and other maladies. Have you seen The Madness of King George? I think it's an outstanding film.
I believe we were still sending troops over to fight in WWI during September of 1918 at greater than replacement rate so I don't think we had our forces up to ultimate strength when the war ended. My grandfather got his draft notice at about that time but had his orders canceled because the war ended before he was set to report.
One of my grand uncles did serve in that war. He was in some sort of reserve unit so I don't know how much action he saw. I do remember him telling about shooting at some kind of single seat German airplane. He was also gassed but I'm not sure if it was Mustard or Phosgene. Which brings me to another question. Why didn't Hitler use chemical weapons at the end? He knew he was going to lose otherwise, so why not give it a shot?
Besides or troops not being at full strength yet in the Fall of 1918, many were weakened or dead from flu. The Central Powers were not as seriously affected by the Spanish Flu because, despite its name, it started in America. Germany not only had all those troops to move from the Eastern Front to the West, they also had a pool of millions of more men to draft from the lands acquired from Russia.
I know they did that in WWII because my dad's unit was sleeping in a barn in Belgium and when the owners invited them into their house they noticed a line of pictures of German soldiers on the mantle. They asked who they were and the couple told them that they were their sons who the Germans drafted into their forces after the takeover. Their sons didn't have any choice other than to be shot or be sent to a forced labor concentration camp. My dad said that when they were in liberated countries like France, Belguim, Holland and Luxembourg, they slept in people's out buildings like barns. When they got into Germany, they took over people's homes and told them to find someplace else to stay for a while.
Regardless of how "good" things looked after Russia pulled out, the other Cental Powers countries began to capitulate one by one then the German sailors mutinied and refused to leave port to fight another large sea engagement. They figured all was useless after that.
Interesting that the French were much more ruthless when their troops mutinied earlier in the war. Many were pretty much shot on sight.
Best wishes,
Stan
(Message edited by Sreid on July 26, 2005) |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 767
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 7:48 pm: |
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Hi Stan,
Interesting thing regarding that arsenic and George III. I had heard his insanity was linked to his having porphyria, a metabolic illness that causes one's urine to turn blue. They were tracing it back through whatever medical evidence they had back to Mary, Queen of Scots. So now they are hinting at arsenic as the cause.
Why not mercury poinsoning? Mercury, used in the leather trade, was supposed to cause many hat makers to go insane. Hence Lewis Carroll's character, "the Mad Hatter".
I did see THE MADNESS OF KING GEORGE III, and I wrote a review of it on IMDB board. It was a very fine movie.
Even with the increasing spanish flu epidemic (which was quite as bad in Europe as well as America), we had sufficiently untapped troop resources that the Germans could not keep back the tide. In fact, the Germans had further problems.
Although they now had control (supposedly) over the Ukraine breadbasket, they found that the transporting of wheat, milk, meat from that location was nearly impossible. Russia's railway system, despite the farsighted work of Count Serge Witte before the war, was too backward. Pity, for the Germans, Austrians, Hungarians, Bulgarians, and Turks were increasingly facing famine. In fact, one of the reasons after their surrender that the Germans resented the western states was that the British and French did not immediately stop their embargo of supplies to the former Central Powers, and millions of Germans starved as a result.
It would also have been next to impossible to get the vast supplies of cannon fodder from the eastern lands willingly to the western front. Remember Lenin and Trotsky. One of the things they did in the period that led to the treaty of Brest Litovsk (which the German High Command, who allowed them back into Russia, had only themselves to blame) was to allow their troops to "fratinize" with the Germans. And spread anti-monarchy, anti-capitalist ideas among them.
Ludendorff found that some of his crack eastern regiments had been infected and had to leave them in Germany (where they replaced troops who had never fought). Of course these troops then spread their ideas to the workers, leading to all those pro-Bolshevik rioters in November 1918.
The amazing thing I find is that a wave of pro-Bolshevik governments did not engulf Europe after 1918, due to massive anger at mismanaged government, diplomacy, and warfare for nearly twenty years.
If Russia had pulled out in 1916 the Germans might have forced a peace where they would have dominated Europe from the trenches to the Urals. It was their bad luck (or our good luck - I don't think we could have found a Kaiser dominated world to out liking or safety) that they "beat" the weakest member of the allies, and were left to face the three strongest ones.
Best wishes,
Jeff
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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 224
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 27, 2005 - 9:23 pm: |
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Hi Jeff,
That article about George III didn't mention him being tested for anything but "inheritance powder". I know that mercury was used as a treatment for syphilis in the nineteenth century (An hour of Venus, a lifetime of mercury) but I'm not sure when that started. The piece did tell of George's periods of remission when he was somewhat lucid.
Interesting about the Spanish flu, unlike almost all inflenza, it started in Iowa rather than China. The first case was a recruit who became ill shortly after arriving in Kansas from a farm in Iowa for basic training. If that happened today, conspiracy types would insist it was biological warfare.
Best regards,
Stan
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 768
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 27, 2005 - 10:45 pm: |
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Hi Stan,
King George had about five bouts of insanity in his life, one of them in the late 1760s. It was after 1789 that his bouts became more noticable
(and really important to Pitt the Younger for political reasons). The final one was in 1811 and lasted until he died.
His sexual habits were rather tame for a British monarch. There was a rumor of an illegal marriage he had in his younger days as monarch (I am not sure but the woman - I believe - was a young Quakeress named Hannah More). But the young woman died, and George, once he got married, was very monogamous (something he could not get his sons to follow). I would be surprised if he ever got a venerial disease - he just wasn't the type.
In all the comments we have had about arsenic and King George, I wonder if you are aware of the murder/suicide mystery involving his fifth son Ernest. The Duke of Cumberland was a smart prince (possibly the most able of the seven sons), but he was a bigot (the head of the Protestant Orange lodges - he led the opposition to Daniel O'Connor and the Duke of Wellington on Catholic Emancipation), and a man suspected of what were termed secret sins. One of these sins was supposedly homosexuality (though there is no real proof). In 1810, while residing at St. James Palace, the Duke was injured with a sword cut by his valet, De Selis. De Selis was a Roman Catholic, whose boss kept jeering at him and his religion. Supposedly the servant attacked him out of anger. Later De Selis was found dead in his room, his throat cut. But the knife was found flung across the room from his body. Although an official enquiry said the servant committed suicide because he thought he had killed his master, rumor insisted that Cumberland tried to sodomize De Selis, and then murdered him to keep him quiet.
I don't have an opinion on this. Years later, when Queen Victoria was shot at for the first time in her career (by Edward Oxford in 1840),
some evidence suggested a conspiracy involving her heir apparent at the time, Uncle Ernest. But Oxford seems to have had mental illusions about his importance (he was a potboy at an inn).
The evidence was a forged letter from Ernest.
Ernest became King of Hanover in 1837, as Hanover had only male rulers. His son, George V of Hanover was toppled in 1866 when he sided with Austria in the Seven Weeks War with Prussia.
Since then, except for the two world wars, Ernest's descendants have retained the title of Duke of Cumberland. Technically some of them are in line for the British throne, though it is highly unlikely any will ever get that title.
Best wishes,
Jeff
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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 225
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 28, 2005 - 9:28 pm: |
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Hi Jeff,
No, I was unaware of Ernest's misadventures. Interesting possibilities though. My knowledge of the British Royal Family is pretty superficial.
Rumors of Heir Apparent's secret marriages to women outside "the faith" seemed to be a popular past time in previous centuries. Witness the supposed Crook/Albert Victor union.
George III's insanity was quite unsual in that it seemed to come and go without explanation. Bipolar does that in a fashion but in a much more rapid a regular cycle.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 769
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 30, 2005 - 12:13 am: |
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Hi Stan,
I was wrong - the name of the young woman linked to the young King George was Hannah Lightfoot, not Hannah More.
The reason that rumors of such illegal marriages abound (and not only in British history) is because men being men they do tend to stray a bit, and royalty does have illegitimate offspring. Many people keep saying that Henry VIII only had one son. He did have one legitimate son (who became Edward VI) but he had a young son who was illegitimate named Henry, Earl of Richmond. Young Henry was very useful to his father for several decades (before his premature death in 1536), as a potential successor - yes, Henry VIII did consider using his illegitimate son as his heir if he could only produce legitimate daughters (Mary and Elizabeth). One wonders how British History would have been different if the Earl of Richmond had lived into the 1550s, surviving his legitimate half-brother. Would he have considered his options to replace his two half-sisters on the throne? He certainly had as good a chance as Lady Jane Gray, but would he have been as successful as that ill-fated nine day queen?
With George III any illegal marriage would have been amazing due to his strict morality code. The reason the Lightfoot story did not damage George III was it was so unexpected given that prince's character. Compare it with the acceptance that his son, Prinny (the future George IV) married Mrs. Fitzherbert the actress. Prinny was such a notorious rake everyone expected he'd do something this stupid.
In the case of the Eddy/Crook "nuptuals, few people in the 1970s recalled the Duke of Clarence. But his father was a rake (the future Edward VII), and his grandmother (Victoria) the epitome of high morality. Eddy had left an impression of some type of debauchering, so it was interesting to see him linked to some secret illegal religious marriage.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 226
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, July 30, 2005 - 8:28 pm: |
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Hi Jeff,
It certainly sounds like, had he lived, Henry "the Nineth" would have had every bit as "legitimate" a claim to the throne as Queen Jane. The calculations to put her there were quite convoluted.
Regarding the Eddy/Crook asserted marriage, the first time I heard anything about it was when Joseph Sickert told his tale on the BBC mini-series Jack the Ripper in which fictional detectives "Barlow" and "Watt" tried to identify the killer. These shows were shown here on PBS in the mid-70s. I haven't read Stephen Knight's book and don't plan to do so. His theory has spoiled the ends of several otherwise OK movies.
In that same vein, the other day, I saw a program about serial killers on the E channel. Early on they covered JTR and their spokesperson for the case was Patricia Cornwell. In my view, these "far-fetched" theories are a distraction that detracts from serious inquiry and wastes a lot of people's time.
Yesterday, I also saw a program about women in the Third Reich, such as, Leni Riefenstahl. Odd that this most bigoted of all regimes was somewhat ahead of most of the rest of the world when it came to recognizing the abilities of women, that is, if they were members of the "right" ethnic group.
Case in point, Hanna Reitsch, the only woman test pilot that I can think of in history and likely one of the best female pilots ever. She was one of the first people to successfully pilot a helicopter and was the chief test pilot in the developement of the jet powered Fieseler 103R, the maned/womaned version of the V-1 cruise missle. She actually volunteered to take the aircraft into combat and there was some consideration into letting her do it.
This weapon could be launched by catapult like the V-1 or dropped from a mother plane like the Japanese rocket powered Yokosuka MXY7 Ohka. Both were piloted bombs but in the German plane the operator was supposed to bale out as soon as he had it zeroed in on the target. The Japanese pilots rode their craft all the way in. Unlike the Ohka, the 103R was never used in combat.
Back to leaders with mysterious rumored and hushed-up early marriages, how about JFK? If it's true, they've done a good job of obliterating any records of it.
Best wishes,
Stan
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 772
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 1:41 am: |
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Hi Stan,
It is peculiar about how the Nazis were progressive in some respects and barbaric in so many others. I think it was due to German history. Germany was always "schizoid" in it's personality. It had a history of internal violence since the Reformation Wars of the 16th Century, into the Thirty Years War, into the wars of Frederick the Great (who was also a supposedly "Enlightened Monarch"), into Bismarck's small wars of unification. But it had a tradition of great art (Durer, Goethe, Schiller) and even social progress programs (old age pensions) under Bismarck. Also progress in science (Paracelsus, Koch, Zeppelin, Lilliethal, Hertz, Ehrlich, Von Berling). They could create the idea of "kindergarten" and the idea of a Hitler Youth Group. While other lands have done actions of real horror, I can't quite understand how the Germans manage to go to the extreme that they do.
The Sickert story is not going to die soon, as it should. It has it's own momentum, even though it has splintered into several rival theories:
1) THE DUKE OF CLARENCE is Jack, killing prostitutes because of his insane, syphilis induced mania.
2) The Duke's former friend and tutor, JAMES KENNETH STEPHEN is the Ripper, angered for being dropped by his former student and lover, and killing the prostitutes who represent the heterosexual love that the Duke is now accepting.
3) DR. SIR WILLIAM GULL is the Ripper, trying to hush up the illegal marriage of the Duke and Annie Crook, and their love child. He may be assisted in this by a coachman named JOHN NETLEY, and possibly by the painter WALTER SICKERT.
4) THE BRITISH ESTABLISHMENT (due to connections through THE MASONS) decided to commit the murders, to either dominate the Monarchy, or to prop up the Monarchy (take your pick of the theories).
5) WALTER SICKERT alone committed the murders, so that he could have something to discuss with his friends over dinner (he did like to talk about it all the time).
Variations on this Sickert story will survive for decades, even though Joseph Sickert admitted he lied about the television appearance he made in the 1970s, and even thought Stephen Knight's book on the Masonic Conspiracy was shown to be a tissue of lies.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 227
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 6:40 pm: |
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Hi Jeff,
Yes, it is strange that JTR theories still have adherents even after they are shown to be likely hoaxes, prime example, "The Maybrick Diary". In another variation of your #3 example, I've even seen a scenario where Sir Robert Anderson is added to the list of accomplices.
The first time I remember hearing about Jack the Ripper was when I listened to a radio show based on the case in the late 40s. I didn't start following the crime seriously though until the mid-70s. At that time, Druitt and and Stephen were probably the most popular suspects. "Chapman" was starting to fade a little by then.
I don't see anyone who qualifies as a prime suspect but I guess my two favorites would be Druitt, still, despite any sporting records, and Bury. A decent case can be made both for and against most of the serious suspects. Myself, I don't really feel the compelling need to solve the case that many do. I'm more interested in determining the type of person who'd commit these slayings. If the murders were ever solved, I'm sure JTR would be someone like Rader or Berkowitz and we'd all be disappointed then move on to the "Black Dahlia Case" or "The Cleveland Torso Murders".
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 773
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 10:25 pm: |
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Hi Stan,
I first was aware of the mystery from the Tom Cullen book, and the television series with Stafford Johns.
In the years since I have studied portions of the case when I get interested in some aspect of the story. I have no solid choice for the person I would choose as a suspect. Druitt, Tumblety, D'Onston interst me because of their own stories - what caused Monty's suicide; what was the truth of D'Onston's "black magic" experiences; what was the truth of Tumblety the quack versus his proclaimed "autobiography (i.e., was he involved in Lincoln's assassination?). I also pay attention to the known murderer suspects: Deeming, Cream, Chapman, Mrs. Pearcey, and (now) Bury. But I refuse to get dragged into a discussion of the validity or not of Maybrick's diary. The commentary just keeps growing, and growing, and growing, and going no-where fast.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 229
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 7:46 pm: |
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Hi Jeff,
The first JTR book I read was Rumbelow's but I did Cullen's later as well as many others. I regard the Cullen work as one of the most important and the first modern writing in the genre. His book was early enough that he was able to interview people who were alive when the murders were occurring and thus was able to get at least their hear-say testimony. I believe his book is a sort of bridge between the old and new publications on the case.
Of the suspects you mentioned, I still think Chapman might have been prematurely dismissed. He certainly seemed to have the "bad luck" to be in the area when murders were happening. The main knock against him is that he was poisoner and 'serial killers follow a pattern'. There are many examples that disprove this tenet. Kurten strangled some, stabbed some, beat some and drowned some. Julia Buenaono poisoned two and drowned one. Dr. Engleman shot several and blew two up with bombs. The "Zodiac Killer" started off shooting, then switched to stabbing, then switched back to shooting and the examples go on.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 774
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 8:46 pm: |
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Hi Stan,
I agree that Chapman being fingered by at least two detectives (Abberline and Godley) is worth a look, but so is Bury and several others. The problem about Chapman's method of killing not resembling the Ripper's is more complex than the "poison v. ripping" argument. It deals with the use of the killings by the two men - Chapman basically killed women that he grew tired of, whereas the Ripper seemed to be killing prostitutes in such a way as to create fear and horror in the public. Chapman (while he was killing his paramours) opted for a method that was quiet - seemingly so - of poison resembling illness. The Ripper wanted to publicized his killings.
This does not end the argument about Chapman being the Ripper. It does bring out the real crux of the dismissal of Chapman as a serious candidate by his critics. It isn't his use of poisons as such, but his habit of secrecy as opposed to the Ripper's relative openess or "shock value".
I might add that several times I have pointed out that Chapman owned a revolver, which he had ready to use the last day he was free (see the account of Chapman's case and arrest by Arthur Fowler Neill in Neill's MANHUNTER OF SCOTLAND YARD). Chapman did not use it (he had too many customers in his pub to be able to use it safely.
He presumably knew how to use it.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 231
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 8:59 pm: |
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Hi Jeff,
Christie and Kiss murdered their wives as well a random victims. Kemper, Lucas and Gein killed other members of their family as well as strangers. I agree, that, if Chapman changed from killing for display to slaying in secret, it would have been quite a shift but that could be explained for practical reasons. If Chapman had displayed murders of women he knew, he was aware he'd be caught after the first or second murder. That being said, it isn't unheard of for a serial killer to undergo a mind shift in his reasoning. It's thought that George White Rogers started off poisoning the Captain of the Morro Castle and setting fire to the vessel so he could play hero calling for help on the craft's radio as 134 more people died. Later, he beat two people to death for financial gain.
It may be correct that JTR was exibiting his work to shock but it's also possible that, with his urges sated, he just left them where they lay. I have found it puzzling that the trend in his slayings was to become more cautious as they progressed which goes counter to the norm. His first murder was displayed openly in the street then the next three were in a back yard, a passageway and a cul-de-sac then finally the last was in a locked room.
As I said, Chapman is not my favorite suspect. I would rate him no higher that forth behind Bury, Druitt and Kosminski. The reason I rank Bury and Druitt first isn't so much because there are good arguments for them but because, unlike virtually all the other candidates, including Chapman and Kosminski, there aren't any real good arguments against them.
Best wishes,
Stan
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 775
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 9:12 pm: |
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Hi Stan,
Actually, the pro and con arguments for Druitt and Bury are fairly even because the suspicions against both men are plausible (due to circumstances of time, and of whom had the suspicions) but not provable so far. I hope more comes out on Mr. Bury. That new book about his wife's murder is going to be useful.
As for Druitt, I am reminded (given all of the information uncovered about him since 1959) of a remark that Charles Laughton gives as "Earl Janoth" the magazine empire villain in the movie THE BiG CLOCK.
Laughton/Janoth has murdered his mistress in a moment of extreme anger, and he is determined to track down the one half-known witness who can destroy him. This is a man he only saw in a dim hallway, who is actually Ray Milland. Milland works as Laughton's editor at CRIMEWAYS magazine, solving murders that the police give up on. He has a pretty good organization that helps gather the information. So Laughton puts Milland in charge, not realizing that Milland is fully aware that he must not find the missing man (i.e. himself). So he concentrates on all sorts of irrelevant clues about "Mr. Jefferson Randolph" (the fake name he used when he was out with the mistress just before Laughton showed up).
Laughton looks at the black board and notes all this trivia. "Never," he says, "have I seen so much labor for so little results. We know his habits, his political opinions, his artistic likes and dislikes, the fines wines and cigerettes he smokes. We never everything about him except who he is!"
It's the same with Druitt. Except for MacNaghten's Memorandum (with it's mistakes) we have nothing linking Monty with the Whitechapel murders. We know he went to Winchester and Oxford. We know he was a wonderful cricket player. We know he performed in a school play atrociously. That he once debated on woman's fashions, and once on Bismarck's policies. We know he became a barrister and a school teacher. We know he was practicing as a barrister up to November 1888, and teaching at Mr. Valentine's school until 1888. We know he was upset about his mother's going into the insane asylum, and that he felt he was going mad too. And we know he committed suicide. There are other minor points (about his legal chambers, his family's traditions of medical service, and his upper middle class connections). But we have yet to pin him down to anything connected with the five classical victims, or even any other real or near real victims. We may find something one day, but I would not hold my breath waiting.
If really pressured to make a half-logical guess, I suspect it had to be someone living in the Whitechapel area, who would be so known and accepted that nobody would question his walking about. But that said, it doesn't mean it definitely is Pizer, Ostrog, Kosminski, or any of the known candidates (Hutchinson is another) that are frequently named. I will make one other comment - I will gladly accept a local as the Ripper, but I feel that this theory has to be short and sweet. No elaborate curlicues about ... oh using the mutilations on the victims as a code based on tailors codes etc.
I'm still getting over that one.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 234
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 6:52 pm: |
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Hi Jeff,
Yes, Druitt has been "gone over" pretty thoroughly without coming up with much more to suggest that he was JTR or wasn't. If I was betting, I'd take even money that the killer's name isn't on anyone's suspect list so far. In fact, it may never be because all records or memories that this individual ever lived might have been lost by now.
Your thought about JTR being a local certainly fits the tenets of modern day Geographical Profiling.
I'm principally interested in all unsolved murder cases and am no more interested in the Ripper slayings than I am in another top 7 or 8 cases. It is the one that led me into the field though.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 776
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 8:28 pm: |
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Hi Stan,
Yes, it is Geographical Profiling, but it only goes so far. It is just a bit more pinpointing than saying the killer had to be living in or near England in 1888. Once you accept the idea of a local Ripper, you still have to figure out what his background was, or his particular lifestyle and heritage and sexual point of view.
The Geographical Profiling goes only so far at this point.
The suspect could be someone nobody has come up with. More than likely it is. I have been reading Jan Bordeson's book THE GREAT PRETENDERS, and he is looking at Louis XVII, Kasper Hauser, Emperor Alexander I / "Fyodor Kuzmitch" (?), the Tichborne Claimant, King George III and Hannah Lightfoot, and the Portland-Druce Scandal from early in the century. He's quite interesting and even handed, but he points out that these five historical mysteries are like the Whitechapel Case and others - the debate never ends on them.
Even if they were to find the name and story of the real "Jack", due to the hype from over a century of continuous interest people would be analyzing him/her and studying the case forever after.
I suppose that I would have to consider the following the best all around mysteries (they are not all murders) that I do gravitate to.
The Whitechapel Murders
The Lincoln Assassination
The Assassinations of President Kennedy, Senator Kennedy, and Martin Luther King
The Assassination of Malcolm X
[The last couple are actually due to them all occuring while I was growing up - I recall the moment I heard the tragedy in Dallas to this day. I was in my 4th grade class at P.S.200 in Elechester in Queens on November 22, 1963. I have never seen so much crying in my life.]
The Hindenburg Disaster (sabotage or accident)
The Lost Colony of Roanoke
The Mary Celeste
The Morro Castle
The Lindbergh Case
The Wallace Case
The Bravo Case
The Disappearance of Dorothy Arnold
Amelia Earhart and Fred Noonan
The Disappearance of Judge Joseph Force Crater
I find these constantly curious cases. Even though I tend to support a solution or someone's attempt at one, they are all so open-ended that one's imagination soars on them.
Take the Morro Castle. You mentioned the other day the suspicion pointed at Radioman George White Rogers as the incendiary madman who killed those 134 people (as well as Captain Warms). But while it looks interesting, the problem is that no real evidence has ever surfaced that proves Rogers did it. It is his later criminal acts (attempting to blow up a senior police officer who was in the way of Rogers own promotion; and then the double homicide that led to his imprisonment) that makes him look like such a good candidate. But in 1934, when the fire was being freshly discussed in the newspapers, radicals, union organizers, even Communists were thought of as more likely to have set an arson fire on the ship. In Rogers' case it sort of makes one feel that all is right with the universe - that if Rogers did set that awful fire, it's nice to know he ended up in prison for life (although it took three other acts of violence to lead to that sentence). It also makes the logic pushing MacNaghten's strong consideration of Monty Druitt understandable too.
Even though we don't know what private information Sir Melville heard, there is a sense of satisfaction if the Ripper died violently, even if by his own hand.
Jonathan Goodman wrote a book, following THE KILLING OF JULIA WALLACE, about the 1931 "Otterburn" Burning Mystery. A woman named Evelyn Foster, who ran a private taxi service in the town of Otterburn near Liverpool, was found suffering third degree burns near her burned automobile. She lived a few hours, and in her statements she claimed a man who she picked up as a fare had set her and the car afire. Mr. Goodman really got involved in studying this case because of the juxtaposition of it and the Wallace case in Liverpool newspapers in 1931, when both were under investigation. The High Constable of the county (where Otterburn is located) was determined that the coroner would find it was a suicide. But the jury brought in a verdict of murder by someone unknown. Nothing officially was ever done with that verdict, due to the pig-headedness of the High Constable.
Mr. Goodman found out that there was a description of the mysterious man that several people (including one or two of the people on the coroner's jury) saw, and it fit - a close but not complete fit - one Ernest Brown, a man who would commit a murder that he tried to cover up with a fire a couple of years later. But Brown left too many witnesses, and he was tried, and convicted, and hanged for this later murder.
On the way to the gallows he was asked if he had anything else to say. Reputedly he thought for a moment and seemed to mumble "Ought to burn...". Mr. Goodman says we cannot be sure, but could Brown have said "Otterburn"? He admits there is a nice feeling of justice one can feel if a criminal who got away with one heinous crime subsequently pays for it for another heinous crime. The book, by the way, is called THE BURNING OF EVELYN FOSTER, and I recommend it.
Best wishes,
Jeff
|
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 237
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 6:21 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I've read "The Burning of Evelyn Foster" and enjoyed it. I also wrote about the case for AMW Magazine a few years ago. Another theory in the death was that Ms. Foster set the Hudson ablaze for the purpose of collecting the insurance payout and accidentally caught herself on fire in the process. This is doubtful because business seemed to be good. I tend to believe her story because I think that she knew she was likely to die and would not want to go to her account with the blot of false witness on her soul.
The year 1931 was certainly a banner year for unsolved murder cases with Foster, Wallace, Hubert Chevis, Vera Page and Star Faithful, that is, if you believe they were all slayings. Three were for certain.
Regarding George White Rogers, yes, I knew that he was only a strong suspect in the Morro Castle fire and was never charged in that incident. He's a parallel to Robert Dale Segee who was suspected of "The Great Hartford Circus Fire" and then fingered for later murders.
All on your mystery list are of interest to me as well although I know almost nothing about Dorothy Arnold. Crater wouldn't make my top twelve list but he'd probably get on my second dozen.
I was Senior in H.S. when JFK was killed and remember the shock but no crying. My feeling is about 98% chance that Oswald was the lone gunman but about 60% chance that there was at least a small conspiracy and it may have been as small as one other person who knew of the crime in advance.
When you see it, it's amazing how small a 6.5 mm bullet is. I go target shooting with one of my sons who just got back from Iraq and he has an antique Mauser bolt action rifle which I think is a 6.5 and, if it is, I can attest to the fact that it has little recoil and would be easy to hold on the target. Something like a Springfield .30-06 would be jerking all over the place as you fired it.
My mystery list would be mostly suspected murders.
About the only one not would be Mallory and Irvine and whether they made it to the top in 1924. Beyond that, the tally would be the aforementioned JTR, Wallace, Foster and Chevis as well as:
Black Dahlia
Zodiac
Jack the Stripper
Bible John
The Borden Murders
The Gatton Mystery
Caroline Luard
The New Orleans Axeman
The Cleveland Torso Slayer
The Texarkana Moonlight/Phantom Killer
The Cincinnati Streetcar Killer
For a couple of more contemporary cases: Rachel Nickell and Tammy Zywicki.
Best wishes,
Stan
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 777
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 1:52 am: |
|
Hi Stan,
Actually, the strong suspicion against George White Rogers regarding the Morro Castle is similar to that against Eric Spehl (I think that's his name) the left of center crewman on the Hindenburg, who has sometimes been suggested for putting a time bomb on board (he was killed in the fire). Again, heavy suspicion but no proof.
It is funny about the Borden Mystery - I have never really gotten into it. I suspect that Lizzie probably would have a harder time of avoiding a prison sentence today than in 1893, and that social views on upper middle class women protected her then. At times I considered the maid, Bridget Sullivan as either a partner in the crimes or the actual killer. Now I am aware of a theory about an illegitimate son of Andrew Borden who may have done it. But I just don't get really into it. I don't know if you are aware of it, but the site of the crime, the old Borden home, is now a bread and breakfast in Fall River, Massachusetts.
But I must admit I like the Luard Case. I started looking into it when, by accident, I stumbled (a number of years ago) upon some background material concerning General Luard. It seems that when he was in South Africa, he got into a controversy in which he strongly defended the reputation of Anthony Durnford, one of the officers responsible for the massacre at Isandhlwana in 1879 in the Zulu War. Durnford was a casualty in it. Luard claimed that Durnford's body was ransacked to get his orders back, so as to protect some higher officers in the British army. Eventually, in a LETTER WRITING CAMPAIGNT of his own, Luard began besmirching the reputations of several of these people. They confronted with a threat of a court martial, and he backed down. You can find the story in a book on the Zulu War, THE WASHING OF THE SPEARS. I was told that Donald Rumbelow is into the study of the Zulu Wars, and wrote him a letter (enclosing a copy of an article I wrote regarding this discovery). Mr. Rumbelow did write back, and said Luard was wrong - Durnford actually made mistakes of his own that helped cause the massacre.
But the point was that Luard could become a nuisance, and part of his ability that way was by letter writing. I suspect that somebocy may have been settling an old score (of a similar type) when he or she began the letter writing campaign against Luard that ended in his suicide.
Dorothy Arnold disappeared walking down Fifth Avenue in 1910. I onces spent six months collecting photocopies of newspaper articles on the case from that year, but I never put it together.
Mallory and Ervine is a fascinating puzzle. I'm sort of hoping one day they find some proof they did reach the top - but keep in mind that even so, Hillary and Norzing reached the top and came back alive. I'm also interested in the lost Franklin Expedition, and would like to figure out why the final resting place of Sir John Franklin has never been located on King William's Land.
If you can, try to get a copy of Jonathan Goodman's THE PASSING OF STARR FAITHFULL. I think you would find it very interesting to read.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 238
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 6:49 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I shall keep a eye out for that Starr Faithful book. The only "major" account of the case I have is a ten page entry by Sydney Horler in a book about unsolved murders. I also have a reproduction of the cover of the September 1931 edition of Real Detective Magazine. The headline above the title says "Why Starr Faithful Was Murdered". It's one of those wonderful detective magazines of the era with beautifully illustrated covers that appear to be watercolor paintings. I wish the world could support at least one publication of this type today but I can't find any.
Yes, I was aware that the Borden Family home was a B&B. A friend of mine drove by it once but didn't go in. Too bad the Brits didn't realize the value of similarly preserving the JTR sites. Imagine walking into 13 Miller's Court today and looking around the room. What a shrine that would be now.
I tend to think Lizzie did it but I recently saw an account from a nurse of her's who claimed that she told her that she put a boyfriend up to doing the murders. When I was in eighth grade in late 1959 or early 1960 there was a one hour TV program about the case. Up until then, I'd only heard the name and knew little about the case. It was a reproduction on one of those shows like Armstrong Circle Theater or The United States Steel Hour and it left the impression the Bridget did it. The next day at school, my teacher (the same guy who was on a campaign to save Chessman) asked me what I thought about the case. He agreed with the show and he gave me a dressing down when I said I wasn't convinced.
I've emailed the Border web site about this show and no one seems to know anything about it. It's sort of like the detective type show I remember from around the same time where JTR was a feeble man in his 90s and still killing women who work with him in a theater. Nobody can back me up on that one either.
It would certainly be a cruel person who could take revenge on Luard during his time of grief. My guess now is the popular explanation is that John Dickman did it because she refused to send him more money. I think Luard was probably innocent but I'm one of the few who is not 100% convinced of that. It would not have been impossible for him to cover the distance in the allotted time had he secreted away some conveyance like a bicycle for that purpose.
I remember hearing on the news when Hillary and Norgay reached their goal in 1953. At that time there was not a mention of Mallory and Irvine. If they did make it and perished on the decent you'd have to say that their climb was a success but their expedition was a failure. I wish someone would make a movie about Mallory and Irvine and show them making it or at least show them at the end dutifully pressing on with the summit in near site. That would leave the impression that they made it but also leave a little mystery.
Best wishes,
Stan
(Message edited by Sreid on August 06, 2005) |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 778
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2005 - 2:34 am: |
|
Hi Stan,
I don't know if this will help, but in the late 1950s Joseph Welch (the gentleman who confronted Senator McCarthy at the hearings, and made the famous, "At long last sir, have you no decency?" remark, was the host of a television show about the Borden Case. I don't recall what was the general program (Armstrong Circle Theatre or Alcoa Hour or whateve) it was part of.
I have mixed feelings about 13 Millers Court as a museum or whatever. But if the site of two hatchetings in Fall River can be a B&B, why not a room where a young woman was reduced to raw meat. For that matter, what happened to the bungalow at the Crumbles where Patrick Mahon killed and cut up his victim?
I would like to believe the "Dickman killed Mrs. Luard" theory except it makes no sense. Even if she had been sending him cash, if she refused to send any more why bother killing her? It is not like robbing Mr. Nisbet of the payroll he was carrying, or killing the money lender for his funds. However, if Mrs. Luard was carrying money that only she and Dickman knew of, then his killing her would have made sense.
Yes, Luard might have gotten a hidden bicycle to give him the speed for a perfect crime timetable, but no bike was found. And if he did do something like that, then the poison pen campaign might have bothered him (he would have wondered what the writers really knew) but, paradoxically, he would have been less wounded by the accusations, and less inclined to commit suicide.
I read a book about Mallory and Irvine called FIRST ON EVEREST about seven years ago. It would have made an interesting film. The biggest problem (to me) regarding the success of Mallory and Irvine in reaching the top was the need to carry those heavy oxygen cannisters to the top. By 1953 the technology made the cannisters lighter, but thirty years later it was really hard. And Irvine, from what I read, was not in as good shape as he should have been. His being chosen by Mallory, due to his abilities as a climber versus his health, resembles how Robert Falcon Scott added "Taffie" Evans to the three men going with him to the Pole. Evans was a big man, and was supposed to be a tower of strength for pulling the sledges. But he was cutting down the food rations of the other four men (and being larger he needed more food for his body), and he was not so good a companion being a troublemaking whiner (according to Roland Huntford).
I agree though - if a film were made of Mallory and Irvine (possibly called "BECAUSE IT'S THERE!"
it should end with a final shot of them pushing to the top, and cut off before we see the writer and director's idea of what actually happened.
It should end with a little mystery.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 239
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2005 - 8:27 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Speaking of Robert Scott, I love the film Scott of the Antarctic. I believe it was made in 1947 but you can't tell that it wasn't released last year. As I recall, John Mills just died recently.
A TV show about Mallory and Irvine I saw said that Irvine was a comparatively inexperienced climber but that Mallory chose him because he was in good physical shape. Another program said that Mallory was so acclimatized that he might have even been able to make it to the top without oxygen. I think I saw somewhere that there's another book coming out on the expedition.
I was in eighth grade when I saw that show about Lizzie Borden so it would have had to be in late 1959 or early 1960. I'm almost certain it was one hour and was in the reinactment style of a segment of Unsolved Mysteries or America's Most Wanted.
Your mention of Senator McCarthy reminded me of something that happened when I was in second grade. Some Puerto Rican separatists got into the Capitol and started shooting Congessmen in the House. When our Principal popped into our room to give us the big news, the first thing our teacher said (I guess not knowing what chamber he was speaking of) was, 'Did they get McCarthy?' I was never sure from her question whether she was pro or anti McCarthy.
I haven't followed the Mahon case close enough to know if the crime scene is extant. To my knowledge, 29 Wolverton Street from the Wallace Case is still there.
The reference I made to the bicycle in the Luard Case would only get a slight chance in my book. The biggest problem with Luard being guilty is the lack of a motive but as they said in the Wallace case (somewhat tongue in cheek I suspect) 'They were married and that's a motive in itself.' I believe the reason given for Dickman killing her was that he might have forged Caroline's name on a check and she was threatening to turn him in.
I'd mentioned earlier that 1931 was a banner year for unsolved murders. The year 1908 was another one of these "islands" with Luard, the Steinheil/Japy murders in France, the Gilchrist/Slater Case as well as the final slayings and the supposed disappearance of Belle Gunness.
Best wishes,
Stan
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 780
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2005 - 10:54 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I heard about the argument concerning forging a check, but the evidence for this is rather weak. In fact, if it wasn't that Dickman's name got tagged to it nobody would notice. It's a rather odd thing about the 1910 railway murder that he was hanged for - they never located the stolen money. Some of it may be in one of those abandoned mine shafts near the train tracks.
As for 1908 being a rival to 1931 as an "unsolved" murder island, you are right. If you stretch it into 1909 you can add Gorse Hall.
But's that no fair - I could also say stretch into the opposite direction back to 1906 and you can add Miss Money and the Mersham Tunnel Mystery.
Steinheil's interesting not only because she seems to have gotten away with a double murder there in 1908, but she had already gotten involved in the "mystery" of the death of President Felix Faure in 1899 (presumably while enjoying her favors in the Elysee Palace). If that is what happened, it did have an effect on history, as Faure was an anti-Dreyfusard, and his demise allowed a more moderate man to become President who allowed Dreyfus a new trial in France.
That incident with the Puerto Rican Nationalists shooting up the House of Representatives occured in 1954. It was a kind of follow-up to the attempt to kill President Truman in 1950 in front of Blair House. I think that four or five congressmen were wounded. My guess is that the teacher's question was based on the controvertial nature of Senator McCarthy - if anyone would be a target for assassins than it would be Tail Gunner Joe.
When he died recently I thought of John Mills as Scott. He gave a wonderful performance in that film. How accurate it was is another matter. The biography SCOTT AND AMUNDSEN by Huntford has suggested that Scott was a good a writer, but a lousy planner and leader. Amundsen certainly was better as a leader, but he could be overly harsh to those who questioned him - one of his party, a man who served with Nansen, was punished for his temerity of questioning Amundsen's ideas. The man subsequently committed suicide. Nansen, who already disliked being tricked into letting Amundsen use the Fram to go to Antarctica, really never had anything further to do with the man after his friend's suicide.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 240
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 8:57 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Yes, if you want to stretch that 1908 "island" year out one each way you could also include Emily Dimmock in 1907 as well as the penultimate slaying of the Cincinnati serial killer and the technically unsolved Swopes/Hunton triple murders in 1909. In the latter case, I doubt you could find more than three people on Earth who think Dr. Hyde was innocent.
You're right, Scott with those ill-suited ponies and tractors that weren't up to the task exhibited a lack of good planning. Amundsen also had better luck than Scott regarding the weather. His luck ran out later in his life when he vanished while searching for Nobile's airship.
When I was at Barnes & Noble today to spend some of my gift cards from my 59th birthday last week, I saw a book entitled "Jack the Ripper's American Murders". I didn't buy it but paging through it appeared to be about Chapman. It listed four slayings that he supposedly committed here but the only one on their tally that I'd heard of was Brown.
Last night, I watched Beyond the Sea about Bobby Darin which was pretty good. I wondered if they'd mention anything about "Mack the Knife" being inspired by JTR but no such luck. I'm almost sure it was. Certainly more so than the assertion that Spam's name was an abbreviated anagram for Poor (Fanny) Adams.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 781
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 10:35 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
Belatedly happy birthday. I turned 51 on April 20th last.
I am aware of the book about JACK THE RIPPER'S AMERICAN MURDERS, but it is not something on my immediate reading list. I have been trying to concentrate on naturalists and evolution. However, to break it up I started reading Jan Bondeson's THE GREAT PRETENDERS. Soon I will be back to Thoreau, Darwin, etc.
I'm surprised nobody ever wrote a book about the real Dr. Hyde and the triple poisoning he got away with. The case suggests like the Stanford White murder the power of wealth in American Justice.
I heard that Mack the Knife is based on JTR. Supposedly in THE THREE PENNY OPERA there is a line that Mackie likes to read the newspaper accounts of his doings, which sounds like JTR too. How does SPAM abreviate into Poor (Fanny) Adams? I see the P and Poor and Am can be for Adams, but where does the "S" come from?
It you look up the comments I wrote about the film THE RED TENT on IMDB, I discuss the events that led up to Amundsen's fatal attempt to rescue (and show up) Nobile. I like that film with Peter Finch and Sean Connery (as Amundsen).
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 241
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 6:16 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Thanks for the birthday wish.
Yes, the Hyde case would make an interesting book. The personal declaration of biological warfare is one of the most unusual of murder weapons.
I'll check out you comment about The Red Tent after I finish with this message. It's a little hard for me to picture Sean Connery as Amundsen but I guess I should see the picture first before passing judgement.
Ten or twelve years ago I rented the video of The Three Penny Opera (English version) because I'd heard it was based on the JTR Case and was surprised to hear "Mack the Knife" sang in the production. Before that, I'd only known it as a pop tune of Bobby Darin.
If the assertion is true regarding an abbreviated anagram, I would assume the S in Spam comes from the last letter in Adams. It is a stretch for sure. I believe the rumor got started when irreverent British troops started calling their canned rations "Sweet Fanny Adams" after the poor mutilated little murder victim. The Brits in general also called America Spamland in WWII because we sent them so much of the stuff as a part of our food aid. It might be off limits for you but I think Spam makes quite a good sandwich. It's also a great Monty Python skit!
Best wishes,
Stan |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 242
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 6:49 pm: |
|
P.S.
The Italians in the Fascist era always seemed to be interested in things different when it came to aviation. Dirigibles versus Zeppelins and blimps as well as autogyros for example. They were also much more the proponents of three engine airplanes than any other country.
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 782
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 8:32 pm: |
|
Hi Stan
[Spam, spam, spam, spam! Spam, spam, spam spam! Wonderful Spam!!] I feel like feeding it to a dead parrot (or, as Cleese says, "This parrot has joined the choir invisible!").
I love the in-jokes and references in some Pythan sketches. In the "Cheese shop sketch", when John Cleese enters he waxes purple prose about how he got peckish for some cheese while reading "Rogue Herries". I doubt if many modern Americans know that was the title of a novel by Hugh Walpole. And in the "Piranna Brother" sketch (or series of sketches) besides the swipe at the Krays, the chief inspector who chases them puts on a variety of ridiculous disguises, including one of "Blind Pew", the pirate who gets run over by a coach in TREASURE ISLAND.
Technically, the vehicle in the hands of Umberto Nobile was not a dirigible but what was called a semi-rigid. Dirigibles and zeppelins had complete frameworks, although the zeppelins had special cells for the hydrogen or helium gas that raised them. The semi-rigids were a hybrid, that filled up like a baloon, but had a fixed keel section. His success with these vehicles was problematical when studying the record. His best one was the NORGE, the semi-rigid he piloted to the North Pole and back for Amundsen and Lincoln Elsworth in 1926. The source of the later problems of the ITALIA disaster go back to his problems with Amundsen on the first trip. But before the NORGE and the ITALIA, there was an earlier disaster in 1921 which is barely recalled. He sold a semi-rigid to the U.S. Government called the ROMA, which blew up when it hit some high tension lines at an airfield in Hampton Roads, Virginia, killing about forty men. Yet, after the fiasco of the ITALIA, Nobile went to work in the Soviet Union still building his airships.
The Adams tragedy of 1867 would also be of interest in any kind of modern book or magazine. Mr Baker's horrendous comment in his diary, "Killed a little girl today. Nice and hot!" merits a bit more study than it has gotten. I was in touch a number of years ago with someone who actually had been looking into the background of Frederick Baker, but I have heard nothing further about it.
I have seen one production of THE THREE PENNY OPERA, about seven or eight years ago at the nearby campus of Queens College (CCNY). It has the basic defect of most of Kurt Weill's shows. Like Andrew Lloyd Webber, he composes one good tune per show, and the rest is dross that barely carries it. Here it was MAC THE KNIFE. In KNICKERBOCKER HOLIDAY it was SEPTEMBER SONG. Only in LADY IN THE DARK did he put together several good numbers (THE BALLAD OF JENNIE, MY SHIP, TSCHAIKOWSKI - thanks to Danny Kaye). I believe he worked with Ira Gershwin as lyracist on that one, which may be why it had a better score than the others.
I also once, back in my college days, saw a stage performance of THE BEGGAR'S OPERA, by John GAY. Actually it was quite good. You know, Gay wrote/composed a sequel called POLLY'S STORY, about how MacHeath and Polly Peachum and some of the others take up residence on an island in the Caribbean Sea as pirates. It is rarely revived, but it was revived in New York City once twenty years ago.
I always liked THE BEGGAR'S OPERA, because of the basis of Peachum from Jonathan Wild. I don't know who was the basis for MacHeath (probably several highwaymen of the time).
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 245
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 6:45 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
(That parrot isn't dead) "It's resting." (No it's not) "It's bleedin' demised!" Another of my favorites is the Ministry of Silly Walks which I took as a put down of bureaucracy.
I guess I was misinformed; I was told that a semi-rigid was a dirigible. That being the case, I wish they'd come up with a better name for such craft than semi-rigid. If Zeppelin can hang his name on his design then I propose we call the semi-rigid a Giffard. He was the first to fly a powered airship that consisted of an elongated balloon supported by a spine in 1852.
Regarding the murder of Fanny Adams by Baker, an early crime book I read described this as 'the first sex murder'. I'm sure they were wrong about that because we know about Gilles de Rais in 1440 and he was probably preceded by others lost to history going back thousands of years.
I haven't seen The Beggar's Opera nor, for that matter, Alban Berg's Lulu. In that vein, however, I have seen G.W. Pabst's Deutsch Expressionist film Die Buchse der Pandora.
Best wishes,
Stan
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 784
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 9:14 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
Giffard sought of falls through the cracks in the dirigible - zeppelin business. People remember the Count and Santos - Dumont (a real tragedy there - he eventually went crazy blaming himself for popularizing flying when airplanes became part of the military machines). But M. Giffard never had the publicity of the two others. I think it's because his machine only got about three miles an hour, and (unlike the later zeppelins and semi-rigids) it really did not steer to well. I suspect the only ones less recalled in lighter than air flight than Giffard are people like David Schwartz (whose patents for an aluminum framed vehicle were bought up by Zeppelin), Wolfert (who got killed in a mishap in 1897 at Templehof Field), and Parseval (who created one of the sausage shaped blimps used in World War One. Like all fields of endeavor only a handful of people become even temporary household names. We haven't even talked about the ones connected to ballooning (the Mongolfier, Pilastre de Rozier, Dr. Jeffries - how many of them are still recalled?). I have a small library of books on aviation history - I actually have one biography on Lunardi, the Italian who became England's first avaiation celebrity for a handful of ascents he made in the 1780s.
It's curious that in ancient literature there are very few references to sex murders. There are stories of rape (the Sabine women, Zeus and his extra-marital escapades). The Bible does have some odd tales - the story of Jacob's daughter, or of Absolom's twin sister come to mind. The rapes usually lead to some grotesques acts of vengeance against the rapist (Absolom murdering Amnon, his half-brother who raped his sister; Jacob's son massacring a whole village, after incapacitating the men by circumsizing them). But I can't recall any like Baker's act with Fanny Adams. Of course, such activities could have been hidden in larger violence. I'm sure that in the aftermath of successful sieges of cities there were small scale versions of the Whitechapel murders - hidden as part of the general rapine and pillaging and killing.
I am aware of a book on Gilles de Rais that came out in the 1980s, but I never read it. I kept putting off getting a copy.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 247
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 4:57 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Yes, Giffard's craft didn't steer too well and was slow but we have to start somewhere. He was mainly handicapped because there were as yet no high power/low weight rotary powerplants available in 1852. By the way, my aircraft library is a total of seven whole books.
It's amazing that in 1900 the fastest human conveyance was a steam locomotive and they were straining themselves to go 100 mph at the time. In 1968, Apollo 8 was going about 25,000 mph; a 250 fold increase!
I think we are probably unaware of a lot of the airship experiments that were going on in the 1890s. That was the time of the first great wave of UFO sightings and many of those descriptions sounded suspiciously like airships.
Regarding pre-de Rais sex murders, there is an account of the execution of Jesus that was supposedly written independantly of the Christian Bible by Joseph of Arimathea. He stated there that Gestas, the unrepentant so-called "bad thief" and one of the three executed at the time, not only robbed but also murdered and drank the blood of babies. This sort of behavior could, for sure, have a sort of perverted sexual component to it. I believe the date of the executions has now been pretty accurately calculated to be March 25 of the year 29.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 786
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 7:45 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I'm surprised they got a locomotive engine up to 100 mph in 1900. But I think ocean liners were soon given a boost. The turbine engine was designed about 1900, and Rudolph Diesel's engine was about to make gasoline power more fuel efficient.
You bringing up the gospel and non-gospel literature on the historical Jesus makes me think of a program that was on the air last night regarding Peter Jennings. In all these years I never knew Jennings' fascination about examining the literary and archeological evidence about the historical Jesus. He apparently loved to discuss the latest discoveries at his dinners, and even when headed for trips to the Mideast he would talk about this with other travellers standing on line at the airport. It really becomes revealing when one sees the private interests of a public figure like Jennings. It reminds me of Prime Minister William Gladstone, who once sent out a naval expedition to see if they could find any evidence of the existance of Atlantis. And Theodore Roosevelt, basking in the success of locating the body of John Paul Jones, and bringing it back to America for burial at Annapolis, sent an expedition to the South Seas to investigate rumors of survivors of the U.S.S.Levant living on an island. The Levant had vanished in 1860.
Where is this account of Joseph of Aramathea located - what book?
There is a book I have by Daniel Mannix about THE GREAT AIRSHIP HOAX of 1897. It is (as far as I know) the only book that really examines the story of that mass phenomenon. I happen to stumble on it by sheer accident in a favorite book store which now (alas) has finally closed it's doors. The book was in the children's books section, and it really was not meant for children.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 251
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 9:41 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
The Narrative of Joseph of Arimathea is one of the proposed books of the Bible that the Roman Catholic Church does not accept and places in a separate book called The Apocrypha. I believe the account is more accepted by the Greek Church. Gestas is also sometimes spelled Gestus and Gesmas.
Of course, the main source for historical, (independent of the Bible) references to Jesus as well as John the Baptist is Flavius Josephus. Since he was born about eight years after the death of Jesus, though, his writings were, at best, secondhand.
All the best,
Stan
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 788
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 7:51 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
Years ago I read Josephus' HISTORY OF THE JEWISH WAR, where he describes the conflict of 65-73 A.D., which ended with the destruction of the Second Temple and the fall of Masada. It was a good account, although self-serving (he had to explain why he ended up a friend of the Roman Emperors Vespasian and Titus, and why he left the Jewish cause). Unfortunately it is the sole account of that war (except what bits and pieces one finds in Tacitus, Suetonius, and Dio Cassius).
I have to look through a small paperback I have that includes portions of THE ANTIQUITIES OF THE JEWS, which (even if second hand) is important for Jewish historians.
The present Old Testament was formally put together between 100 B.C. and 100 A.D., and the selection of the 39 books remains a matter of interest. For instance, why were ESTHER and JOB included? Do you know that ESTHER is the only book in the Bible where God is not mentioned? And Job, of course, is the closest to questioning the inteligence or kindness of God - and that final chapter (when God appears in the whirlwind and confronts Job) is hardly totally satisfying to modern readers. One also wonders about missing books - do we have all of the book of HABBAKUK, or just a large fragment? Who combined the three portions of ISAIAH (which linguists can point are written by different people)? If I had some real patience I might study Biblical problems closer, but one can tackle too many interests.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 254
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 8:33 pm: |
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Hi Jeff,
Yes, Josephus was kind of like Field Marshal Paulus when it came to switching sides to save his own skin. I guess he could have gleaned some of his knowledge from written records which wouldn't be exactly seen as secondhand. Even though his accounts might be self-serving, they're better than no records at all. I find John the Baptist a most interesting Biblical character.
The politics regarding what got into the Bible and what didn't seems quite unholy. From what I've heard the Book of Revelations in the Christian Bible only made it in with a one vote margin.
You said you were reading about Darwin; I've wondered why he's received so much notoriety in connection with evolution. The idea had been around for nearly a hundred years in the Lamark thesis. I guess it must have been because Natural Selection sounded logical and that's what threatened the establishment. In Lamark, I believe it was suggested that the species just sort of morphed into the various niches in the environment.
I see that BTK is on Dateline now as part of his farewell tour. My feelings are a little mixed about watching it. It reminds me a little of those books that Ian Brady and Danny Rolling "wrote" which I would never buy.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 790
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 1:28 pm: |
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Hi Stan,
The business about a one vote margin getting REVELATIONS into the New Testament amazes me. If any book of the New Testament would "sell" Christianity, it would be the one threatening eternal doom and pain to whomever does not accept Christian doctrines.
Josephus is good, as far as one is willing to accept him, but he is not the best. But until something better comes along (if it ever will) we'll need him.
Actually it reminds me of a problem regarding contemporary Roman historians. Tacitus and Suetonius give us the existing portrait of the Caesars and their follies and foibles. Nero, the contemporary emperor at the time of the start of the Jewish War, is the worst of the emperors (Caligula and Tiberias and Domitian are next in order of notoriety for cruelties). But Tacitus' account is highly slanted to a high (and not deserved) view of the Senate of that period. He apparently wanted a return to a Senate controlled Republic. But that oligarchy had been pretty corrupt too. We are dependant on Tacitus (so much of his history survives, and it jives well with the accounts of Suetonius and Dio Cassius). But the reason we have Tacitus is that one of his descendants was made Roman Emperor two hundred years later and insisted on copies of his ancestor's histories be published and distributed throughout the empire. Had the Emperor Claudius done something similar in his reign, possibly more of his histories would have been saved as well.
Darwin's idea of natural selection is lightyears ahead of anything Lamarck came up with. Lamarck got hung up with the idea of acquired characteristics (best illustrated by his idea of the giraffe eating leaves on higher and higher branches. Nothing has ever validated this theory. The real issue (among Darwin's critics, like Samuel Butler) was how much of his theory was "stolen" from his grandfather Erasmus. Erasmus Darwin did have some vague idea of evolution but he never did what Darwin did - gather as many facts together to support the theory.
Butler's attack on Darwin (he was the son of a neighbor, and originally adopted evolution because of his own anti-religious views) was due to imagined slights, and a huge amount of jealousy. The author of THE WAY OF ALL FLESH, EREWHON, and EREWHON REVISITED was constantly carping at people to make sure the public knew he was around. Most people couldn't have cared.
I missed the BTK on Dateline - and really did not care much. Why feed the creep's ego? Let him enjoy the amenities of the prison that he is in. He should be screaming as somebody straps him into an electric chair, gas chamber, or guilloutine if there were real justice here.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 256
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 6:43 pm: |
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Hi Jeff,
Yes, what would the TV preachers have to talk about if there was never a Book of Revelation? I believe the reason why some did not want to include it in the Bible is because they didn't think it portrayed a loving God which seemed to put it at odds with the other books.
I should think that Gaius (Caligula) would give Nero a run for number one most infamous Emperor and I might add Commodus to the list as well. Tiberius certainly gets the credit for setting the trend.
In my view, the biggest question about evolution is how nonliving chemicals made the leap to life. I would guess some protein-like molecule formed accidentally that had a property that allowed it to corrupt similar molecules into duplicates of itself in a away like prions do now in deseases like CJD. This started a chain reaction. After that faze, one of those molecules must have changed enough that it could start "molding" duplicates of itself using atoms and smaller molecules as viruses do now and away we went.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 791
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 2:09 am: |
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Hi Stan
I realize that the God of the Christians is far more loving and caring for his children than the Jewish model before him. But the problem I always found was the veiled threat involved in the prospect for an afterlife. If you don't believe in Yahweh and you are Jewish bad things happen to you because of the covenant with Abraham that bounds you to do what Yahweh says. But it (technically) does not apply to non-Jews.
With a more universal religion, the Christian version (while it pushed that God is a loving God who wants you to be happy) it adds that you (meaning everyone) must believe in him or end up in that fiery lake or some other portion of Hell.
It is, actually, a type of moral/emotional blackmail. Sooner or later most religions have some version of it (Islam certainly does as well). It is, after a while, a good excuse for not wanting to believe in any God or religion.
I recently read Loren Eisley, and he pointed out the one problem with Darwin's evolution theory that Darwin did not wish to acknowledge but which his fellow evolution discoverer, Alfred Russell Wallace, brought up - the development of the human brain just is not explained by the brains of lesser animals, including primates. Wallace dared to suggest that it might not be so easy to claim it was due to natural selection, but Darwin disagreed.
Commodus was a pretty weird emperor, insisting on acting the part of a gladiator (only insisting his opponents be rendered helpless so he could beat them to death). No, Caligula and Nero and Domitian were not the last of the bad Roman Emperors.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 259
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 7:56 pm: |
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Hi Jeff,
Yes, it does seem a little like extortion to have burning in Hell for eternity held over you if you don't do what's right. I guess that's just for the people on the fence or near it. The ones who are already doing the right thing shouldn't have to think about it. I was brought up in a Protestant church that left that "threat" out there although I don't believe it was officially in the church's teachings. A minority of the members took it that the burning Hell wasn't literal and that it was more like a place where you went to contemplate your misdoings for eternity in a sort of state of perpetual depression.
We can't prove that there's a God but, in my own mind at least, I believe can prove there's deity in some form. That is, nature, unless acted on by some external force, always takes the easiest course and the easiest course would be for there never to have been anything, therefore, there must be a conscious force to see that the Universe is here. That Deity, if that's what you want to call it, could be a God, a Goddess, a group of Gods and Goddesses or whatever. That's my view at any rate.
I don't believe Darwin and his comtemporaries would have any problem explaining the development of the human brain if they'd known about species like Australopithecus who had brains in between the size of apes and man. In that era, the only example of "primative man" they had was the Neanderthals and they, on average, had a brain slightly larger than that of modern man.
Today, I saw that Steven Spielberg is starting his film about Abraham Lincoln. I've wondered if they could use two photos of Lincoln taken at the same occasion and digitize them, adjust them for size and, in a computer, fill in the intermediate frames thus creating a sort of movie of him in life. One of the things my youngest son teaches in college is computer animation so maybe I should ask him if it's currently possible.
Best wishes,
Stan
(Message edited by Sreid on August 14, 2005) |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 795
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 10:43 pm: |
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Hi Stan,
I try to pick the ethics and morality of religion apart from most of the dogma. It takes awhile. Years ago, when my father was still alive, he suffered from blindness. I read books to him - and we went through the entire Old Testament (Dad was a linguist, so I even read Hebrew to him as well as English). I have to admit much of it, while fascinating, makes one quite wary about concepts on holiness. Some of the prophets in the Bible resemble the ayatollahs of Iran in their degree of toleration from the official norms.
Darwin probably would have found Australopithicus to be one step closer to the developement of the human brain. But the biological chain is still incomplete.
Interesting - Darwin and Lincoln were both born on February 12, 1809. Curious to find two great men born on the same day (unlike two like John Adams and Thomas Jefferson dying on the same day). When you mention the idea about taking two photos of Lincoln and trying to use computer animation to make a film of him. There is a site dealing with William Stead on the internet, and they had several shots of Stead which somehow could look like a small motion picture of him. I can't recall the web site though.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 260
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 6:05 pm: |
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Hi Jeff,
I'm surprised that William Stead wasn't captured on movie film in his own lifetime.
Of course, I knew that Adams and Jefferson died on the same day but I didn't realize that Darwin and Lincoln shared a birth date. Darwin always seemed older to me. I guess I must have seen photos of him in later life and thought they were of him when he became a sensation.
They seem to be continually moving the goal posts when it comes to the "missing link". At the start, they asked where is the species between ape and man then when they found one it wasn't good enough. Now, we have numerous species that generally show a progression in brain size from ape to human as time advances and it still isn't good enough. What do they want, 100 species with each having a brain 1% larger than the previous until the breech is completely filled?
I watched Alexander on DVD last night thinking that it couldn't be as bad as all had said but I was wrong. The only part I liked was near the end when the war horses were going up against the war elephants. From what I know, the film wasn't very accurate either but it's Oliver Stone after all. At least in JFK, the inaccuracies helped make the movie more interesting, although, I wish he'd ended the film about twenty minutes earlier.
Best wishes,
Stan
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 796
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 7:31 pm: |
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Hi Stan,
Darwin always looked old. He occasionally has a nice shy smile, but never shows his teeth. But he isusually serious, and he was bald (even as a young man - or balding). He also survived his perfect contemporary Mr. Lincoln by seventeen years. That would enable him to reach the age of 73, whereas Lincoln only reached the age of 55. Lincoln looked like he had aged too (being Chief Executive during a Civil War would do that). But had he lived (unwounded) after 1869, he probably would have regained some of his youthful vigor again.
If you look at the IMDB Site you will see that the oldest celebrities who appeared came in on the ground floor - they were photographed in the late 1890s. Stead may have been so photographed, but possibly the motion pictures have long since disintegrated.
It is not only a matter of trying to stretch out the developement of man from primates, but trying to balance the record fairly. Right now the earliest human being ("Lucy") was discovered by Louis Leakey and his wife in 1970. But he died, and his wife and son got into conflicts with other paleontologists about exactly what Lucy proves.
I haven't seen Stone's ALEXANDER. I did see Robert Rossen's 1955 film ALEXANDER THE GREAT (with Richard Burton, Fredric March, Michael Hordern, and Harry Andrews). It is okay, but tries to tell too much complicated history in two and a half hours of film. I gather that Stone's ALEXANDER was rather pompous, but somehow it is easy to become that way when dealing with the world's youngest conqueror. Despite ancient literary sources (Plutarch, Arrian, etc.) I have seen nothing that got to the central enigma of Alexander's personality - what was he like as a person. We know his political and military astuteness, but we are not sure of much about his character. He was a mean drunk, possibly bi-sexual, and full of curiousity. But what made him tick? It remains unknown.
As for Stone, brilliant film maker that he is, I find him totally untrustworthy due to his own agenda. I make it a point not to see his films unless I have to.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 262
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 6:04 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Most, if not all, of the "ape-men", Lucy included, are probably not direct ancestors of modern man. More than likely they are a branch off our family tree with whom we share a commom ancestor like the Neanderthals are. Indirect "proof", if that's what you want to call it, is proof none the less of the Theorem of Evolution in my view.
I don't remember seeing any older Alexander films but I was aware that there was at least one. A major flaw in the Stone version, in my opinion, is the overemphasis on his mother. I don't know if Stone was pandering to the female audience or trying to draw in more males with Angelina Jolie; perhaps, both. Some of the CG effects look a little cartoonish as well.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 798
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 8:56 pm: |
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Hi Stan,
There was little Stone or Rossen could do about Alexander and his mom. Philip and his wife were at serious loggerheads through most of his reign, and Alexander was something of a mother's boy. Philip was planning to marry again, and have a new heir. His assassination (by a friend of Alexander's) was probably due to the influence of Alex's mom (as well as Alex himself).
Besides, it's Angelina Jolie. She may be a smidge too much of a kook, but she is worth watching.
Until they have some direct proof we will have to base the acceptance of evolution on that indirect proof. Whether or not Lucy is a direct ancestor is hard to say - there is pretty little left of her skeletal remains to really judge whatever differences there were.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 263
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 7:17 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I said that Alexander's mother was overemphasized in that movie because they kept bringing her up long after she was basically out of his life. Her influence over his earlier life had already been covered in the first half of the film. There was also little in the production that showed him to be all that "Great" in my view.
Earlier this month, I noticed that you had five assassinations on the list of mysteries you found of most interest. What do you think of all the conspiracy theories tied to all of them? In addition to the ones you mention, I'm puzzled by the slayings of Olaf Palme and Huey Long also.
Best wishes,
Stan
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 800
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 8:43 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
Conspiracy theories are fun, but I am wary of every last one of them. There is a point when the imagination of the person who has "uncovered" the conspiracy has so taken over as to forget that people in real life do not behave like the mechanical characters in an Agatha Christie tale. Everyone has to be placed precisely in this or that position for the story to make sense. Well, in reality the average human being has enough self-respect or self-direction that he or she will not follow a pattern arranged by another.
There is a murder case I love to discuss, not an assassination - the 1894 Prittlewell Murder. A lothario named James Canham Read murdered one of his lady victims, one Florence Dennis. Read did not think he could afford supporting another bastard child (Florence was pregnant by him) along with his wife and seven kids. He was chief payroll clerk at one of the larger piers in London, but he already stretched his resources to the limit dealing with his philandering ways and his family. So he concocks a plan to kill Florence and do it perfectly - really one of the few Victorian killers who actually attempted a "perfect" crime.
Read makes a big show of breaking off with Florence. She was willing to go along, because he has decided to keep in touch using special mail postal boxes (in private stores) rather than mailing directly to her house. He figured this would prevent evidence that he kept in touch with her - not realizing that it would be easier to have her collect her own mail, and hide his letters, and burn them. Instead all these storeowners who rented the boxes to him around London were prepared later on to testify Read was the one who rented the boxes.
He also kept telling Florence or Florrie not to mention him to anyone. For the most part she didn't (she wasn't seeing him physically at this point). But he told her to take a train to the village of Prittlewell near Southend and he'll meet her there - again don't tell anyone (especially her mother and her sister, Mrs. Ayriss - a discarded mistress of Read's). Here Florrie showed she was sensible. Everyone who takes a small journey tells their relatives where they are going. Florrie told her sister Mrs. Ayriss.
Ironically this would destroy both of them. When Read got Florrie alone in a wooded area off the beaten track at Prittlewell, he gently asked if she hadn't mentioned they were planning to be together that night. Instead, knowing what Read wanted to hear, Florrie said she hadn't. Almost immediately he shot her.
The next day, when he was back at his job, he got a telegram from Mrs. Ayriss, demanding to know where Florrie was. It was the beginning of the collapse of his elaborate plan. Before the end of the year he was convicted and hanged.
If people were like the mechanical dolls in a Christie novel, Florrie would have kept her mouth shut, and it is just possible the scheme might have worked. But the human element always trips these things.
I will willingly admit that some conspiracies are real - Booth's plot(s) against Lincoln, or the bomb plotters against Hitler. But Booth hoped to plunge the North into political turmoil by killing Lincoln, Seward, Andrew Johnson, and General Grant at the same time. Instead, George Atzerodt turned true to form (cowardly) and got drunk instead of attacking Johnson. Grant went with his wife to visit some relatives in New Jersey. Seward, recovering from a carriage accident, had a metal brace covering his throat, while Lewis Powell was trying to cut it. And Count Stauffenburg and his co-conspirators did not count on one of the other officers at that conference at Rastenburg pushing the bomb in the briefcase away from Hitler to get nearer the map they were studying.
My interests in the two Kennedys, King, and Malcolm are due to them occurring in my youth. Each has large amounts of unexplored or poorly explained situations. But somehow the conspirator theories regarding JFK seem to run into major difficulties: No two of them pick the same villains. It's LBJ, no it's the billionaire reactionaries in Texas, no it's Castro in retaliation for plots against him, no it's the Mafia in retaliation of Kennedy bad faith after their support in 1960, no it's Jimmy Hoffa, no it's the Russians. You just have to take your pick. My sister once, in a spirit of cynical fun, suggested everyone was looking at the murders of both John and Bobbie the wrong way. It had nothing to do with politics or policies. Rather it was a Hyannisport version of "Kind Hearts and Coronets". See, by knocking off all the heirs (including young Joe, Katherine, and the sister who had the lobotomy) somebody was planning to get the old man's whole for themselves. However, apparently with Edward Kennedy having nine lives or something the scheme fell apart.
My interest in Lincoln's Assassination is due to being a Civil War buff and a history major. Nowadays the emergence of Doc Tumblety has added an additional reason to reexamine the case, although I don't think the Doc was Jack. He is a colorful character (so is D'Onston for that matter).
The Long case is fascinating. That man, if he had lived, would have wrecked this country's democracy. He would have been President in the 1940s, and would have run the three arms of the Federal government like he ran the state executive, legislative, and judicial arms in Louisiana. But Huey was more than just a power hungry son-of-a-bitch. He actually knew what to do with the power. There is no denying that for the country people that he came from in the parishes of Louisiana, Huey actually improved their lives. That's why he's still a hero there.
I don't know if that would have happened if he had become President - possibly it might have.
In his case, the issue is two fold: was he the target of an assassination plot, and (if so) was the assassin Dr. Weiss? I think most people feel it was Weiss, but they think he acted alone (his father-in-law, a Long opponent, had been racially smeared by the Senator). But was Weiss connected to the opponents of Long who met, a few months earlier, in a hotel and plotted his killing? Nothing has ever been proven about this. Moreover, it seems that when Huey's life insurance policy was paid out, the report said he was not killed by Dr. Weiss (who was shot to pieces by Long's bodyguards) but by one of the trigger happy bodyguards (accidentally, of course). By the way, Dr. Weiss's son became a physician too, and moved to New York. He too has the name, Dr. Carl Austin Weiss.
Palme's murder is (I believe) the first act of political violence in Sweden since Count Axel Fersen (Marie Antoinette's lover and would-be savior) was kicked to death by an enraged mob in 1811. It was the first political assassination there since King Gustavus III was shot at the infamous "masked ball" (which was the basis of Verdi's opera) in 1792.
Could he have been killed by an agent of the CIA (Palme was very hostile to American foreign policy moves, and open in questioning them)? Yes he could have. But he also had domestic enemies. And he had foreign enemies not linked to the CIA. To me, what is chilling about the murder was the openness of it all. Palme was not working when assassinated. He and his wife were going out to see a movie, and the assassin walked up to him in the street, shot Palme, and then walked away into the crowd. It was very professional (another reason to think CIA) but it leaves a major question: why didn't the crowd grab at the assassin. Even if he fired once or twice more, there were sufficient people around to really make it hot for the assassin. When Alexander of Yugoslavia and Louis Barthou were gunned down in Marseilles in 1934, the Croatian assassin fired and killed or wounded two or three others, but he was knocked down by a policeman on horseback, and then stomped to death. Nothing like that happened with Palme. While Sweden never has elaborate "Secret Service" types around the Prime Minister at all hours, that doesn't discount the public. Why didn't they react to stop or catch the killer?
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 265
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 6:56 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Well, we've made it through another day on the BTK appreciation tour.
You mentioning that you were a Civil War buff reminded me of my next-to-oldest son, also named Jeff, who was a Civil War buff when he was a teenager. He's in the 25th Infantry now so he might be more of an Iraq War buff now since he's actually fought in that one.
Thanks for the account on the Prittlewell Murder.
I'd read a brief account of the case in a book I have but you went into greater detail. While reading it, I couldn't help but be reminded of the Maria Marten murder.
You're right about conspiracy theories being fun. They're kind of like UFO tales; in your heart you know there's probably nothing to it but sometimes it's fun to ponder that perhaps there could be.
And, as you say, the conspiracies in the cases of the Lincoln and Hitler attacks were certainly not theories. They do leave questions though, among them, was the Confederate government in anyway involved in the former? In Hitler's case, if he'd been killed and his successors tried to propose peace, would the allies have accepted anything less than unconditional surrender? And if not, would the Germans have chosen to go on fighting knowing what happened at Versailles?
Regarding the other assassinations, to me, King's is the one that looks most like a conspiracy. As for JFK, we can thank that clown Ruby for probably ending any chance of us figuring that one out, that is, if that wasn't his mission in the first place. Oswald is certainly a very interesting and enigmatic individual despite his misdeeds.
I, like you, don't take Tumblety and Stephenson (as well as Gull) too seriously as JTR suspects. There are no records of any sexual serial killers waiting that late in life to start their careers to my knowledge. Some might bring up Gein but there are some pretty good indications that he began murdering long before the cases for which he's famous. I remember when he was all over the news in the late 1950s. He was sort of the BTK of his era.
I believe most now think that Long was accidentally shot by one of his high strung guards and that it was known at the time and covered up. From what I've heard the fatal bullet was a larger caliber than Weiss' gun which I think was something like a .32 and that his intent may not have been to kill Long. Who's to say if the act prevented The Socialist Republic of America. Since I'm a recreational target shooter I've wondered about studying the assassinations in view of the types, brands, calibers and ballistics of the weapons used but right now I'm going through my "proud to be lazy" period.
It's hard to say if the CIA would kill Palme. I'd think they'd have about a thousand or so on there list ahead of him. And if they would want to, I'd think they'd do it in a more surreptitious way. Since there's no solid motive for the murder, the killer could have been almost anyone with a perceived grudge or whatever.
As for why didn't the crowd intervene; they usually don't in similar types of slayings carried out by the Mafia and no one rushed the stage at Fords Theater. I think in many cases they are too shocked or afraid to do anything. It also depends if there's an individual prone to make the first move present. If there is, the gang is usually ready to join in. It might also have had something to do with the Swedes being a little more unfamiliar with guns than other citizens in other countries or in other times.
Best wishes,
Stan
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 801
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 10:17 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I am getting so tired of the former resident of Wichita. He is going to be in prison for sentences totalling 147 years. Perhaps one of his prison mates may pull a Jeffrey Dahlmer / Richard Loeb on him. Even if prison life is ugly, it's still life, and I cannot see what BTK has done to merit living longer.
Actually, you are right about Ford's Theatre. I can suspect that the crowd was just not prepared for an assassination, as there had been only one publicly known attack on a President before Lincoln (Richard Lawrence's attack on Andrew Jackson in 1835). But even so, even taking into account that the killer was one of the best known performers on the American stage, that crowd really reacted slowly. Lincoln was slumped in his rocker. Mary Lincoln is screaming. Clara Harris is trying to staunch Henry Rathbone's wounded arm, while he is trying to open the door to the box. All that chaos should have tipped off the audience. Besides, the ham in Booth made him give his "great" final curtain line: "Sic Semper Tyrannis!!". Did the audience really think this was a gag that Booth and Old Abe had cooked up? They must have been slow - here is the killer LIMPING off the stage (Booth must have been in agony), and nobody thinks - "Why don't I just jump up and grab him?"
That was one really slow thinking audience.
When Garfield got shot in 1881, in the Baltimore & Ohio train station in Washington, D.C., the crowd grabbed Guiteau quickly enough (in fact, the police had to protect him from being lynched). Same with Czolgosz in 1901 (McKinley told those near him to make sure nobody hurt the assassin). With Oswald, there was a full hunt for the assassin, ending only when he was arrested after (apparently) killing Police Officer Tibbett. But nobody saw Oswald fire the rifle - it is different from Booth, Guiteau, and Oswald (as well as Lawrence, Schrank, Zangara, Weiss (?), Collazo and Torresola, Sirhan, Ray (?), Bremer, Malcolm's killers, Byck, Squeaky and the other lady who shot at Ford, and Hinkley). They all fired in public places.
By the way, on this subject it is interesting to note that many political murders in our country are totally forgotten. Observe -
1777 - Button Gwinnett, President of Georgia (nowadays Governor), shot and killed in a duel by General Lachlan MacIntosh. Gwinnett, who signed the Declaration of Independence, wrote so few surviving documents that his signature is the rarest of any of the signers.
1804 - Burr kills Alexander Hamilton (technically a duel, actually).
1806 - The great legal teacher, George Wythe (his students included Jefferson, John Marshall, and Henry Clay) was poisoned by a great nephew, who sought to get his inheritance. Wythe lived long enough to disinherit the great nephew, who was acquitted of the crime - the soul witness to the poisoning of Wythe's coffee was a slave, who could not testify against a white man. Wythe was also a member of the 1787 Constitutional Convention.
1809 - Who killed Governor Meriweather Lewis at Grider's Mill on the Nachez Trace? Usually it is called a suicide, but the evidence suggests it could easily have been a murder for political reasons. Lewis (admittedly in a low frame of mind) was going to Washington, D.C. to clear his name of calumnies brought against him.
1826 - Kentucky's former Congressman and Solicitor General, Solomon Sharpe, was stabbed to death on his doorstep in Frankfort, Ky., by Jeroboam Beauchamp. The story was very influential in American literature. Poe's only attempt at a drama, POLITIAN, is based on "the Kentucky Tragedy", as was Robert Penn Warren's WORLD ENOUGH AND TIME.
1826 - William Morgan is last seen bailed out of a jail, and pushed into a buckboard taking him out of a jail upstate in New York. He's never seen again, although a corpse found later that year may have been his. Morgan's book, revealing the secrets of the Masons, is believed the cause for his abduction and murder. An anti-Mason movement, leading to a third party movement in the 1830s results.
1829 - New York State Chancelor, John Lansing (one of the three men delegation to the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia in 1787 - he and one of his associates walked out - they disliked the intense Federalism of the document) visits New York City. He leaves his hotel one February night to post a letter in the Albany mail boat. He's never seen again. Years later, Thurlow Weed, one of the Republican leaders in the state, says that Lansing was waylaid and murdered by political foes, and their families were still prominent in 1880.
1835 - Lawrence's attack on Jackson. It has been written up for a joke or two (mainly because Mad Dick Lawrence was caned by an angry Old Hickory - the only time an assassin had to be rescued from his target in our nation's history). Lawrence felt he was King Richard IV of England and America, and Jackson's refusal to save the 2nd Bank of the United States was to keep Lawrence from reclaiming his throne. But Jackson always maintained a conspiracy of his foes (Calhoun and Mississippi Senator Poindexter were the ones he suggested - Calhoun went on the Senate floor to deny any involvement in a plot to kill Jackson).
[Interesting sidelight - Jackson liked the theatre, and his favorite Shakespearean actor was Junius Brutus Booth Sr.! The two men were actually friends, but Booth was a drinker with mental problems. Occasionally, when drunk and in one of his moods, he would threaten to attack Jackson. Old Hickory knew of this, but he excused it because he knew it was only ole' Junius. I wonder if he sent a congradulatory letter to Junius when John Wilkes was born in 1838?]
1850 - Senator Henry Foote, feeling threatened by Senator Thomas Hart Benton of Missouri, pulls a pistol on Benton on the Senate floor. Benton
says, melodramatically, "Let the assassin fire!"
Foote doesn't fire.
1856 - Senator Charles Sumner was beaten senseless on the floor of the Senate by Congressman Preston Brooks of South Carolina. Brooks' uncle, a Senator, was attacked by Sumner in a speech, and Brooks was teaching him a lesson. It took Sumner years to recover. Brooks died of consumption in 1857.
1857 - A number of the guests at the Buchanan Administration's inauguration party were sickened by tainted water at the National Hotel, where the dinner was held. Several died. There were rumors that Buchanan and several others
1859 - Congressman Daniel Sickels shot and killed Philip Barton Key, District Attorney of Washington, D.C., in Lafayette Square in the middle of the day - Key, son of Francis Scott Key, was having an affair with Mrs. Sickels. Defended by Edwin Stanton, Sickels won acquittal due to the "unwritten" law about adultery. Sickels would live to be a questionable hero of Gettysburg, a Medal of Honor winner, Minister to Spain, an unscrupulous but colorful scamp, and even serve time in Congress again.
1859 - Senator David Broderick of California is shot by State Supreme Court Chief Justice David Terry. Many have wondered if Broderick (an abolitionist) was set up. Terry was an expert shot.
1861 - First attempt to kill President-elect Lincoln on the way to his inauguration when he stopped at Baltimore.
1876 - During the Hayes - Tilden election controversy, one night, some unknown person fired a shot at Rutherford Hayes when he and his family were seated for dinner. The attack was hushed up by Hayes, who was trying to keep the campaign down to issues and not violence.
1881 - Charles Guiteau shoots President Garfield,
who dies due to medical bungling two and a half
months later. Guiteau is hanged in 1882.
1889 - U.S. Supreme Court Associate Justice, Stephen Fields of California, rules against David S.Terry (see 1859) in a law suit concerning Terry and his wife. Terry, the next day, confronts Fields in a train station, and
slaps him in the face. Fields' guard (U.S. Marshall Neagal) knowing Terry's reputation, does not hesitate but shoots Terry dead. Arrested for murder in California, Neagal's case leads to the classic U.S. Supreme Court Case, IN
RE NEAGAL (1890) which says that U.S. peace officers are not subject to state laws in performing their duties.
1890 - Former Congressman William Taubee of Texas was shot and killed by newspaper reporter Charles Kincaid, a political and personal enemy, after an argument. Kincaid was sent to prison for the murder. But the thing that was noticeable about this killing is that Taubee is the only member of Congress to be killed in the U.S. Capitol building in Washington, D.C.
1894 - Mayor Carter Harrison the First of Chicago is shot and killed by a disappointed office seeker named Patrick Eugene Prendergast, who had thought he would be made corporate counsel for Chicago. Prendergast was tried (his attorney was Clarence Darrow), but convicted and hanged. It was the only capital charge that Darrow ever lost.
1900 - Governor elect William Goebel was shot in Frankfort, Kentucky before his inauguration. He was hurredly sworn in before his death. His opponents were suspected of planning this murder, and there was a long trial, but the case was never solved.
1905 - Former Governor-elect Frank Steunenberg of Idaho was blown apart by dynamite attached to his front gate of his home. The assassin was a professional assassin named Harry Orchard, but the issue of the trial that was not settled was whether Big Bill Hayward and other Mining Union Officials were behind the murder too. Hayward, defended by Clarence Darrow, was acquitted. Orchard (who confessed and cooperated) went to prison for life. William Borah, who prosecuted, was made for life - he became Idaho's senator until he died in 1940.
1906 - Former Senator Jones of Utah was shot and killed in his law office by a woman whom he "wronged" (the Senator had been practicing illegal polygamy).
1907 - Former Senator Edward Ward Carmack of Tennessee was shot and killed on the campus of the state capital at Nashville (he was a Prohibitionist), and the killers were eventually pardoned by the standing Governor, whose career was finished as a result.
1910 - Mayor William Gaynor of New York City is shot by a discharged city employee when going on a vacation trip. He survives the attack but the bullet can't be removed, and he dies from the after affects in three years. Gaynor's assailant died in a prison asylum.
1912 - John Schrank wounds Teddy Roosevelt in his Presidential bid for a "third term" in Milwaukee.
[Actually, it is fairly interesting that so many American Assassinations and political attacks occurred between 1890 and 1912 - it bears comparison to the 1960s]
For the sake of brevity I'll stop at this point, but there are several other lesser known attacks in the period from 1912 - 2005.
I hope your son is back from Iraq. If not, I wish him home safely soon.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 988
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 10:58 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff and Stan,
Wasn't Teddy Roosevelt's life saved by the lengthy speech he was scheduled to deliver? I seem to remember he had a copy of it in is breast pocket and it was so thick it slowed the bullet. I might be remembering that wrong. Although wounded, Teddy went on and gave the speech.
Re: Lincoln and Booth--people must have just been flabbergasted. Imagine Brad Pitt doing something like that today.
I've read that Major Rathbone later married Clara Harris, stabbed her to death, and wound up in an insane asylum. I've also read, but don't know if it's true, that during the War, Edwin Booth saved Robert Lincoln from falling into the path of a train. Given some of the remarkable coincidences the Civil War has to offer, I wouldn't be surprised it it was true. I think I might have read that in "The Booths of Maryland".
Stephen Sondheim wrote a musical revue about Presidential assassins in 1991 (aptly titled "Assassins"). I've never seen it, but I understand the John Hinckley and Squeaky Fromme characters have a duet.
Dave
Best to your son, Stan.
(Message edited by oberlin on August 18, 2005) |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 266
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 6:08 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff and Dave,
Thanks for the well wishes to my son. His combat unit is back in Hawii now, for the time being.
Seemingly, I do remember someone being saved by thick papers or a booklet in their pocket and it could have been TR. I do recall that he went on to give his speech though wounded.
Lots of interesting cases there Jeff. I'd only heard about a third of them. Oddly, before Oswald, most all of the assassinations were done with handguns. I do believe that the attempt that was made on Lincoln where the bullet passed through his hat was likely a rifle and he blew that one off as perhaps an accidental shooting.
Amazing to me, Booth's pistol only had a muzzle velocity of about 300 ft/sec, less than what 90% of the BB guns out there have today. Of course, the ball was multiply massive and would have imparted a lot more energy to the target. Also, since the shot was nearly a contact wound, the escaping gas would have done damage on its own.
I remember when the actor John Eric Hexum fired a blank loaded prop gun into his head not realizing this with fatal results. Additionally, the paper wadding used to keep the powder from falling out of the cartridge was blasted into the wound.
Interesting to note on rifles and handguns; in the case of pistols and revolvers, the majority of the tissue damage is done by the bullet as one wound expect. With a high powered rifle, however, the majority of the tissue damage is done by the shock wave radiating out from the slug. It would be odd to find damage more than an inch away from the path of a handgun bullet's path but in a rifle shot damage could be several inches away from the path.
On the topic of actors being killed with prop guns, the case of Brandon Lee has to be mentioned because of the unlikely chain of errors. There were "dummy" cartridges on the set which contained no powder charge but that still had a percussion cap at the base. Someone pulled the trigger on one of these rounds and the cap was enough of an explosion to propel the bullet free. Since the barrel of a gun is usually about .010-.015 smaller than the bullet, so that it can engage the rifling grooves, the slug stuck in the bore. No one noticed this and loaded a blank cartridge into the gun and fired it at Lee for the scene. The blank powder charge and the hidden slug, to effect, made a completed cartridge and the bullet was shot out to kill Lee.
I remember my dad telling me that the Germans in WWII made their guns about .010 bigger in diameter than ours. That way, they could use our ammunition in their guns but we couldn't use their ammunition in ours.
In the 1850s, there was a weapon called a Ryder Pistol that fired a pellet by the use of a percussion cap alone. It was pretty ineffective as a weapon but it could cause a fatal wound if fired at close range to the temple, the eye, up the nostril or, in a smaller person, under the sternum into the heart.
Back to the topic of assassinations, I see we have our semiannual solution to the Judge Crater Case out again. I haven't heard its details so I guess I should withhold my doubt.
Best wishes,
Stan
(Message edited by Sreid on August 19, 2005)
(Message edited by Sreid on August 19, 2005) |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 802
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 9:56 pm: |
|
Hi Stan and Dave,
Re: Booth - There is a book by Stanley Kimmel called THE MAD BOOTHS OF MARYLAND, but more recent studies are worth looking into. Like AMERICAN BRUTUS. Edwin Booth's saving of Robert Lincoln happened (believe it or not) in November 1864, when they were both in Boston. Edwin pulled Robert out of the way of a locomotive at the Boston train station, when Robert was pushed onto the track by the crowd headed home for Thanksgiving. This action was useful for Edwin and his brother Junius Brutus Jr. and the rest of their family when they had to prove their loyalty to the north after the Assassination - Robert Lincoln rushed to their defense.
Major Rathbone (a distant relative of Basil Rathbone, according to the actor in his IN AND OUT OF CHARACTER) did marry his step sister Clara Harris. In 1881 he went nuts and stabbed her to death, and spent the remaining thirty years of his life (he died in 1911) in an asylum in Germany. Their son, Henry Rathbone, was a U.S. Congressman in the first three decades of the 20th Century. There is a novel now called HENRY AND CLARA about their tragedy.
The Lincoln Conspiracy is like a magnet for odd situations. The number of tragedies that stem from it include
Major Rathbone and Miss Harris
Herold, Powell/Payne/Paine, Atzerodt, and Mrs. Surratt
Dr. Mudd (quite an enigma there, actually).
Sam Arnold and Michael O'Laughlin (who would die in that yellow fever epidemic that hit Fort Jefferson).
Edmon Spangler
Secretary of State Seward's daughter and died - their lives were appreciatedly shortened by the horror of the attack on their home, in which the Secretary was mauled by Powell, and his two sons and an aide were attacked and wounded.
James Lane and Preston King, who prevented Anne Surratt from seeing President Andrew Johnson, committed suicide within a year of the assassination. King drowned himself in the Hudson in November 1865, and Lane shot himself in 1866.
Mary Todd Lincoln would spend about a year in an insane asylum in the late 1870s. However, in recent studies, it looks like the former first lady was put in the asylum by her son Robert because he wanted to preserve his father's estate for future inheritance purposes.
Laura Keene, the actress for whom the production of OUR AMERICAN COUSIN was being produced in honor of (she had made it her favorite comic play), never quite recovered her reputation afterwards. She died in 1873, way before her time.
Edwin Stanton remained Secretary of War but with increasing loggerheads with President Andrew Johnson. This led to the attempt to impeach and remove Johnson, which succeeded in the impeachment (the indictment phase - handled by the House of Representatives) but failed in the removal by one vote (which blasted the careers of seven Republicans who voted for Johnson). Stanton was removed after the President won the acquittal, and it was really the end of his political career. He did get appointed to the U.S. Supreme Court, but on his deathbed in 1869.
General Lafayette Baker, the head of the Secret Service, who was in charge of tracking down Booth, died in 1868, very suddenly. Rumors said he was poisoned.
Boston Corbett, who claimed he shot Booth to death, went nuts (he was always borderline anyway), shot up the Kansas State Legislature, and was put into an asylum - he escaped it in 1888 and was never seen again.
Government witness (also self-serving stool pigeon) Louis Weichmann became a man in a constant state of nerves until his death in 1902. He kept feeling he would be targetted by John H. Surratt for betraying his mother, or by John Wilkes Booth (whom Weichmann believed hadn't been killed by Corbett or anyone else).
Major General Winfield Scott Hancock, who had won an enviable record as a Northern Corp. Commander, was a Democrat - and was selected to be in charge of the execution of Booth's fellow conspirators. If it had been of four men, nobody would have said much, but one was Mrs. Surratt. As a result, when he was the Democratic Presidential Candidate of 1880, he was pilloried for it by the Republicans. He lost the closest Presidential election (in terms of the popular vote) in our history - under 10,000 votes! The victor was a war hero and former Congressman, who had calmed down a crowd in Washington on April 14, 1865 in the wake of the murder. He was former Congressman and General James Abram Garfield. He would enjoy his victory for four months before he experienced what Lincoln did, except that Garfield would die after two and a half months of medical bungling.
Yes, there is all these weird and tragic twists - and Doc Tumblety too!
I had heard about the ammo calibration trick, Stan, but I was told the Communists did it in Vietnam, not the Nazis.
The speech that saved T.R. is still in existance - the bullet and his ruined eyeglass case are in a glass case at the THEODORE ROOSEVELT BIRTHPLACE Restoration in Manhattan.
More about Judge Crater tomorrow.
Best wishes,
Jeff
|
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 273
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 5:13 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Well, I read a little on the Crater solution and it looks a little fishy to me.
Some would say that one of the biggest conspiracy theories regarding the Lincoln assassination is that the guy shot in the barn wasn't really Booth and that he got away and lived into the Twentieth Century.
I remember my dad talking about the NAZI overbore calibers before Vietnam happened so they must have gotten the idea from the Germans, that is, if they didn't get it from someone else.
My dad carried an M1 Carbine of "Carbine" Williams fame in the war. It was a relatively low powered rifle that shot a short-straight .30 caliber round. I don't believe the Germans had anything close enough to chamber a cartridge of that type. Low powered or not, it got the job done on "Bugsy" Siegel and Sir and Mrs. Jack Drummond.
We bought an example for my dad one Christmas. Jeff and I took it out for some test firings before we gave it to him and it was a lot of fun to shoot.
Best wishes,
Stan
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 803
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 8:28 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
The Crater business was overblown in the NEW YORK POST. Of course, whenever something like this pops up the Murdoch press always is there to trumpet how it solves the case. Whereaa the NEW YORK TIMES account this morning was more skeptical.
Basically the situation is some woman who died last April left a sealed envelope not to be opened until she died. In it she accused her dead husband (a cabby in 1930) and his brother (a New York City cop) of being involved in the rub-out murder of Judge Joseph F. Crater. The body was buried near Coney Island, near the future site of the New York Aquarium Building (in 1930 the old Aquarium was in the Castle Clinton in Battery Park). Murdoch's account suggested that several skeletons were dug up when the building was built. The New York Times said nothing like that was ever found. So who to believe?
It is instructive to look at this new matter regarding Crater. Compare it to resolutions of the Ripper Mystery - the Maybrick Diary, the Sickart Solution of Patricia Cornwall, the story of the Royal Conspiracy. Each sounds great if true, but founder when the evidence turns (or seems to turn wormy). Most likely Crater (not an honest jurist, but a Tammany hack with a taste for chorus girls) did die violently. He died just as the events that brought down Mayor Jimmy Walker's administration began. Even if the main details remain unknown, it is fairly easy to guess what happened. Easier than to guess the identity of Jack the Ripper.
The issue of what happened to Booth is always used as "proof" that he was being protected by Southern fifth columnists who spirited him away, or by Stanton (if it was an anti-Lincoln northern conspiracy). That Stanton was one of the most difficult of human beings to work with nullifies most theories that he would have been trusted by Booth (actually Booth was safer to Stanton as a corpse than as a living escapee). If he had been helped by southern fanatics, they would have announced it within hours of the death of whomever was shot at Garrett's Barn - as a way of thumbing their noses at the Union leadership, and of announcing the continuation of armed fighting.
If one still wants to believe, Booth and Herold met a Confederate deserter (usually called "Boyd") who looked a little like Booth. Boyd and Herold were in the barn surrounded by the Federal troops, and after Herold surrendered, Boyd got shot and died. Booth fled - wherever.
There were as many Booth sitings in the decades after his death in April 1865 as sitings of Crater around the globe. A very dramatic Protestant minister in Georgia who looked like Booth so attracted attention that Edwin Booth went to hear him, and then to meet him (Edwin Booth was amazed at the resemblance, but knew it wasn't Johnny). Another figure was a drunken derelict named David E. George, who committed suicide in Enid, Oklahoma in 1903. He confessed on his death bed that he was Booth. A small town lawyer named Finis Bates had George's body stuffed, and took it around the country as Booth's real body. Nobody knows it's current whereabouts.
I know there is a Jimmy Stewart film biography about "Carbine" Williams, but I have never seen it. But the term "Carbine" as related to guns goes back over 150 years. There is a scandal, from the early day of procurement in the Civil Wars, called "the Hall Carbine" Affair. The Federal Government paid a huge sum of money for a weapon called "the Hall Carbine" that was actually defective. The case became notorious because (supposedly) the agent for the Hall Carbine's manufacturer was J.P.Morgan & Co. which got a tremendous fee for their work.
I've seen photos of the work the carbine did on Mr. Siegel, in his Hollywood home. I did not know that it was the weopon used on the Drummonds. By the way, I plugged in Sir Jack Drummond into "Google" and found out that a current theory is that Gaston Domenici was not the killer, but that Sir Jack was using his family vacation for some government espionage regarding a factory in France - and he and his family died as a result. But (I repeat) it is a theory.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 275
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 5:41 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
That Crater "solution" sounds like a combination of Hoffa and those women who claimed their dead husbands were either JTR or Dan (D. B.) Cooper.
Regarding Booth, I remember seeing an episode of Unsolved Mysteries which asserted that George was the assassin. I think Bates wrote a book claiming such.
I've seen the film Carbine Williams and it was quite good, although, of course, they showed that the slaying for which he was imprisoned wasn't his fault. His design was taken by Winchester who licensed it out to many companies for manufacture during WWII. The one we bought my dad was made by General Motors and the one used to kill the Drummonds was produced by the Rockola Jukebox Company.
There were a lot of short rifles that were called Carbines even before the Civil War. The most famous probably was the Cattleman's Carbine which was a revolver and saw limited use in the war. It had some promoters because it was a repeater but the Henry Rifle, which was a modern firearm in every respect, came along and was the quantum leap. The only major advance made after that was the invention of nitrocellulose (smokeless) powder.
As for the Drummonds and the Domenicis, the rifle was actually used to kill all three, although, Elizabeth was beaten to death with the stock which broke in the assault. That must have been a weak point because when we went out to shoot the one we bought for my dad we noticed that the stock was cracked. Jeff took it back to the gun dealer and got a new stock put on before we gave the present.
I hadn't heard that theory about the murders but I had heard the claim that Domenici was "framed" because he was a "Red" which might have something to do with what you found. I guess the main assertion is that he "took the rap" to protect his son.
Best wishes,  <~~just found this and had to use it
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 806
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 7:28 pm: |
|
HI Stan,
"Spam, spam, spam, spam! Wonderful spam!"
Nice icon.
UNSOLVED MYSTERIES had a lot of good stories on them, but (with all their so-called attempts at even-handedness, the show did push historical conumdrums too much. The only time I am aware of any kind of film version of the Booth escapes story, it was in some dreadful film THE LINCOLN CONSPIRACY, that starred Bradford Dillman as Booth and was produced in the late 1970s. I think John Dehner was in it too.
I am somewhat amazed that a jukebox company would have designed and manufactured a weapon. I wonder why. But then, I was willing to accept that a motor car conglomerate (G.M.) manufactured one.
By the way, are you aware of the homicide linked to the family of revolver inventor Samuel Colt. In 1841 his brother John C. Colt, an accountant, was in debt to a printer named Adams for publishing a book about Colt's revolutionary theory on accounting. He killed Mr. Adams in a quarrel in Colt's office on Chamber Street in lower Manhattan. Then he spent a few days arranging the transporting of the corpse by trunk to a ship headed for New Orleans. Unfortunately the corpse was discovered when unexpected delays kept the boat from leaving New York Harbor. The trunk was traced back to Colt, who was arrested. He was tried, and convicted of the murder, and sentenced to death. But the day of his execution he was married in the old Tombs Prison in Manhattan, at a service that his friend John Howard Payne (of "Home Sweet Home" fame) attended. An hour later two events happened. First a fire broke out in the Tombs, and brought a huge crowd. Secondly, the corpse of John C. Colt was found in his cell, a dagger in his heart.
It was later suggested that John Colt did not die, but was spirited out of the burning Tombs in a plan set up by brother Samuel. John Colt was supposedly seen in Texas, and his mistress/wife was supposed to be with him. If this sounds familiar, similar stories are told of other killers (such as Mr. Booth).
It had a literary affect on two great writers who were contemporary with it. Having written "THE MYSTERY OF MARIE ROGET" based on the death of Mary Cecilia Rogers, Edgar Allen Poe decided to write "THE OBLONG BOX" about a mysterious box shipped on a ship going to sea. It, of course, is a corpse in a crated coffin.
Herman Melville, who liked to refer to crimes in his stories (in THE CONFIDENCE MAN: HIS MASQUERADE he uses Dr. Palmer as an noun for poisoners), wrote a reference to both Colt and Adams in BARTLEBY THE SCRIVINER, and used the suicide in the Tombs for the conclusion of PIERRE, or THE AMBIGUITIES.
I had heard that Domenici was willing to take the rap for his son (supposedly the murders, if committed by old Gaston, were due to his being a voyeur and watching Mrs. Drummond bath undressed). The material about Sir Jack dying with his family due to spying was totally unexpected by me when I looked him up.
Best wishes,
Jeff
|
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 277
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 6:19 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I miss Unsolved Mysteries. It was my favorite TV program despite the slightly redundant title.
The M1A1 Carbines were made by 6 or 7 different companies during WWII and all were exactly alike except for the producers name which was stamped on the top.
I don't recall that I'd heard of the crime involving Colt's brother. The only scandal I remembered about Samuel was that he died of Syphilis.
The possible escape of his brother from death row reminded me of Thomas O'Connor. This killer escaped from Illinois' death row in 1921 and was never recaptured. We have changed from hanging to the electric chair and now to lethal injection since then but some have argued that O'Connor could still be hanged here if he was found alive. He would turn 119 this year so that's pretty much out of the question now.
I wrote about Mary Rogers (as well as O'Connor) in the series I penned for AMW Magazine. In the article, I noted the assertion that Poe might have been her killer.
Regarding Colt's revolver, the claim has been made that he got the idea while looking at the wheel of a ship. Perhaps he did but a single action flintlock revolver had been produced by Elisha Collier about 20 years before Colt patented his weapon and some 100 years before that there were revolvers where the cylinder had to be turned manually.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 812
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 9:00 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
The only multiple bullet gun I was aware of before the revolver was the pepperbox, which was one which required the shooter to turn the cylinder before firing (I always thought it was a real defect in any firearm to have to fire it so slowly).
The person who I recall suggested Poe was Mary Rogers was Irving Wallace in THE FABULOUS ORIGINALS. Irving Wallace wrote a chapter about the murder centering on Mary Rogers as the original of the victim Marie Roget. He only suggested Poe as a bit of fun at the end.
I read Raymond Paul's book on the Rogers Case, and John Walsh's book, which has to be seen as a careful study in the creation (or distruction) of the story because Poe was trying to keep up with police developments. Raymond Paul suggested that the killer was Mary's boyfriend (who committed suicide about two months later). But he did review all the evidence and suspects in the book. Unfortunately, Mr. Paul went on to write some mediocre novels based on 19th Century mysteries (one on Ellen Jewett in 1835 and one on Reverend Mr. Avory in Fall River Mass., in 1831).
I feel the premature death of UNSOLVED MYSTERIES was tied to the demise of it's star Robert Stack. He was perfect in presenting and setting up the stories of the mysteries being shown. It was probably impossible to replace him.
I heard of the Tom O'Connor case. It's believed by some that he returned to Ireland to fight for it's freedom, and may have been killed there. He killed a policeman, if I am correct, and I suspect that MacArthur and Hecht may have had his escape in mind in the character in THE FRONT PAGE of the escaped cop killer Earl Williams. But Earl seems more sympathetic to me than Mr. O'Connor.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 278
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 5:55 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
According to what I have, O'Connor killed a night watchman. I wonder if anyone has totally escaped from a death sentence any nearer than four days before the execution date.
As for Mary Rogers, yes, I'd say her b/f would have to be a strong suspect, after all, he was the person she was going to meet when she disappeared and she was wearing her clothes from that day when she was pulled from the Hudson. The case was certainly a sensation; sort of the Black Dahlia of its time.
Regarding pepperboxes, of the ones that did revolve, there were some later models that did rotate when the hammer was cocked, same as a single-action revolver. The main criticism of the weapon, besides its weight, was that sparks from the first round fired would sometimes set off the other rounds accidentally. This is somewhat spurious because the same problem could also occur with the early cap and ball revolvers like the Walker Colt. Jeff has one of these revolvers with the loading lever and when he and I shoot it he fills the cylinder bores over the bullets with grease so that no stray sparks can get in.
I was with Unsolved Mysteries from the pilot with Raymond Burr and the specials with Karl Malden right up through all the episodes with Robert Stack. He was critisized for being wooden but I thought he was great. In the end, they were supposedly grooming Keely Shaye Smith, Pierce Brosnan's future wife, to take over some of his workload so I don't know why she or someone else couldn't have taken over. I still watch the reruns on Lifetime once in a while and I have about seven hours of the show (sans commercials) on tape. I'd guess about six of those seven hours are crime related.
That E Channel show about serial killers that I knocked the other day because they had Cornwell on unchallenged insisting that Sickert was JTR replayed the other night. There was a segment in it about the serial child killer known as "The Babysitter" or "The Snow Killer" which I missed the first time. There was some stuff on that case that I hadn't seen before and I did commit that segment to DVD. I remember when the case was a brief sensation back in the 70s.
Best wishes,
Stan
(Message edited by Sreid on August 23, 2005) |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 814
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 9:21 pm: |
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Hi Stan,
When you pose your question regarding the escape of various people sentenced to death, you have to recall there are various ways of escaping execution without really winning. Herman Goering, for instance, escaped hanging the hard way the night before he was supposed to die. So did Isaac Sawtelle, sentenced to death for killing his brother in New Hampshire about 1890. He became so intensely frightened, he died of a heart attack the morning of the execution. Also one has to think of John Lee, who three times escaped hanging on the same morning in 1885 - with his feet on the trap that would not open. There have also been last minute pardons or reductions in sentences. As for physical escapes, wasn't there a film a few years ago about a prison warden's wife who fell in love with a prisoner sentenced to die, who helped him escape? I keep thinking Susan Sarandon was in it.
Paul made a good case about the boyfriend being the killer of Mary Rogers (interesting, less than a century later a Mary Rogerson would be the second victim of Dr. Buck Ruxton). He pointed out that Daniel Payne (the boyfriend) gave remarkable eye witness detail about what Mary was wearing when he last saw her - down to the type of gloves she had with her. And when some of her clothing was found at the spot in Staten Island that Paul thinks was the actual site of her murder (not off Hoboken, where the body washed up), he points out that there were items of her clothing that were not off her dead body when she was found - which means the clothing was put on the spot by someone who had access to her clothes, and who had intense memory of what she wore that last day.
When you mention the grease in your son's Pepperbox, apparently it has no ill effect on the mechanism. Was that type of grease used originally or was some other lubricant?
I have many books on true crime in my library that I have not looked at - including Ms Cornwall's. Somehow I wish it did not become so controvertial so early, as now I figure it is not worth reading - it probably is, but (like McCormick's book) it has to be used carefully.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 280
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 6:21 pm: |
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Hi Jeff,
I see that we have a BTK movie to look forward to in about two months. Can't wait.
Maybe I was a little vague about those who escaped death row; I meant as per our topic of O'Connor. That is, broke out and lived the rest of his life without consequence. And with less than four days lead time!
The movie you were probably thinking of was Mrs. Soffel starring Diane Keaton. Soffel did help the Biddle Brothers escape in 1902 but their freedom was short lived. They were gunned down in a police shootout and died of their wounds.
Jeff's gun is a cap and ball revolver not a pepperbox. From the first Colt in 1836 until 1857, when Smith and Wesson came out with the first cartridge revolver, these weapons had to be charged like a muzzle loader. You had to put powder into the cylinder chambers then push in a ball on top, in most cases, with a lever that was attached under the barrel. It had a small plunger on one end so you just pulled down it and that pushed the bullet into the chamber. You had to rotate the cylinder to load all, usually, six slugs. After that, you had to install a percussion cap on the back of each charge. You had six shots but after you were empty it took a long time to reload. That's why Wild Bill Hickock and others carried two guns.
To answer your question, no, the grease used as a spark barrier doesn't hurt the mechanism. If anything it reduces some of the corrosive effects of black powder. As far as I know, no one used any spark barrier back the early days of the revolver. They just took their chances. It probably would have been a little messy carrying a grease packed gun around in your holster all day too.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 816
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 10:21 pm: |
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Hi Stan,
It was MRS. SOFFEL which I was thinking of, although I thought it was a film starring Susan Sarandon, not Diane Keaton. Of course, my favorite escaping prisoner was the great Jack Sheppard, who made three amazing escapes within a year from Newgate Prison. Unfortunately for Jack he was still captured and hanged in the end. I wrote an essay once about the case of Rev. William Dodd, who was hanged in 1777 for forgery in London. After his execution his body was taken in a carriage to a nearby address where Dr. Percival Pott and Dr. John Hunter were waiting to try to revive him (Hunter was an expert in aiding drowning victims). They apparently did not succeed.
There were also rumors of attempts by wealthy or prominent criminals to have silver tubes inserted in their throats. I don't think it worked too well.
My interest in firearms outstrips my real knowledge of them, but I would imagine that the average gun would overheat if fired too frequently - another possible reason to carry two or more pistols or revolvers on you.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 282
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 6:19 pm: |
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Hi Jeff,
You'd have to do some heavy duty shooting to get a revolver barrel too hot. That being said, I have burned my hand on the barrel of a gas-operated assault-style rifle after speedily discharging a 30 round magazine.
I do remember reading about some convicts trying to beat the hangman like you said. It's odd that those doctors thought that they had a chance to "resurrect" the Right Reverand. The C-2 vertebrae is the one that usually fractures or separates in a hanging. That's the one that Christopher Reeve broke. The most one could hope for would be life as a quadriplegic today. Back then, without respirators, I should think the chance for survival would be as close to zero as you could get.
As for "favorite" escapees, I guess the serial killer Carl Menarik a.k.a. Frederick Mors would get my vote. He was technically an inmate rather than a prisoner but the result is the same. I think he'd be 117 if we brought him in today.
Best wishes,
Stan
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 817
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 10:21 pm: |
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Hi Stan,
You have to recall that in 1777 death by hanging meant strangulation (usually), not a broken neck. This would be the situation in England until William Marwood began executing criminals in the 1870s, and developed the long drop. Calcraft had let his subjects dangle until they stopped moving. A few people sensed that one could aim for breaking the criminal's neck: When the Lincoln Conspirators were being hanged, the hangman admired Lewis Powell for his calmness (he was a captured Southern soldier, paying for doing his duty, in his mind). He said he would try to cause the jerk to break Powell's neck. Unfortunately he got nervous and Powell strangled to death.
My favorite serial killer (although I question the whole story) who escaped was Bela Kiss. Supposedly he got out of central Europe in the mess of displaced people following World War I. Then, in 1930, a New York Detective with a photographic memory saw Kiss entering a subway in Manhattan. He tried to chase him down, but the crowd coming out prevented him. I've read that it came out in the 1960s that Kiss had moved to New York City (smart move, actually), and worked very happily as a janitor in Yorkville until he died in 1958. Since nothing like the so-called pre-World War I killings that Kiss was supposedly responsible for ever occurred here, either he wised up, or found he didn't have to do anything anymore to prove himself (in a diabolical way), or ... the stories may have been false! I read about the case a few times, and it all depends on events in backwaters of the old Austro-Hungarian Empire.
I get the impression that some local scandal (perhaps he was a lothario) got blown out of proportion.
By the way, if you look at a review I did on the IMDB board for a forgotten Basil Rathbone film called THE MAD DOCTOR, someone who wrote that script picked up the story of Kiss being spotted by a detective leaving a subway. Only the sequence in the film was different.
There is a story I came across in Canadian history regarding the problem of an overheated weapon. I am referring to the Ross Rifle Scandal in World War I, where Canadian troops were being armed with the only rifle manufactured in Canada (on the order of the Minister of War Ordinance - I think that was his title - General Sir Sam Hughes). Based on the Austrian Mannlicher rifle, the Ross was good for hunting purposes. But it got overheated and jammed when fired too frequently. It did not help much to have a Ross at Vimy Ridge. Hughes, with a commendable but misplaced sense of patriotism, refused to stop using his nation's "symbolic" weapon. Eventually he was forced to, and then "gently" pressured to retire.
I have never heard of any country's politics getting so tied up with the use of a weapon like this.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4872
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 2:52 pm: |
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Unfortunate choice of phrase by Berry : "At Lipski's execution the crowd was the largest I have ever seen, many of the people remained hanging about for hours."
Robert |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 285
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 6:26 pm: |
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Robert: Sounds like the making of a tabloid headline.
Hi Jeff,
Aha, yes, I'd forgotten about the lineage of the drop-height calculations. I had heard that some of the more "humane" hangmen before that would pull on the convict's legs to help things along; like some of the more merciful executioners who'd throttle their subjects before lighting the kindling for a burning at the stake.
Rifles are more prone to overheat for several reasons: a barrel 4 times longer means 4 times the friction, generally higher muzzle velocity increases friction, larger powder charge means more heat and usually larger magazine means more rounds fired in a shorter length of time; also in some cases, a faster reloading capability.
Kiss is a favorite of mine as well. I have seen some pictures supposedly showing investigators searching his property for victims. One thing that's bothered me about the case is that I could never find any dates when victims vanished or when the bodies were found. Seems like there should be a record of that somewhere.
Best wishes,
Stan
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 818
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 11:30 pm: |
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Hi Stan,
Calcraft was one of those hangmen who would pull the legs of his subjects to speed up their demises. There is a case I read where once his rope broke, and the criminal fell into the pit beneath the scaffold. When they came down he was okay, but he confronted the sheriff and Calcraft and said that he was claiming his freedom - they had hanged him, and he had lived through it. Calcraft informed him that the law recognized no such rule, and that he was ordered to hang the man until he was dead. Protesting to the end, the man was put back onto the scaffold, a new rope was put on his neck, and this time he was executed.
Recently Stewart Evans wrote a very informative biography on James Berry. Berry was only the public executioner for under one decade. Calcraft was executioner for over three, and would probably be a good subject for a biography. Problem is that Berry wrote of his experiences. Calcraft could barely write, so one would have to depend exclusively on newspaper reports.
From what I recall of my reading on the Ross Rifle, it was designed for a more leisurely paced use than battle use. While one can fire several bullets at an animal target when hunting, it just isn't like the firing of a Springfield rifle (to use a contemporary weapon) in a battle. And the Springfield, dandy rifle that it was, was not the most modern war rifle of 1917-18 either. At one point the British, in desperation at the losses of their largest colonial ally due to the Ross problem, offered their own guns - even though they were having an increasinly difficult time keeping their own troops armed. Hughes, despite his affection for the Empire (he was the leading "Orange Lodge" figure in Canadian politics), just wouldn't hear of it. His patriotic consistancy is the most irritating thing about the scandal.
To me, what makes me most suspicious of the Kiss Murders is the finding of the victims' bodies in wine barrels in the inn he ran (at least that was the story I read - please correct if this is wrong). Why he could not have found a better place to get rid of his victims' remains I can't fathom - unless he never killed anyone. I must add that when I noted that the notorious name dropper and story teller William Le Quex wrote of Kiss as "Europe's Mystery Man" convinced me that there may be less to the story than was apparent.
One other thing about Calcraft and his subjects - he once got into trouble by allowing a man with a wen be touched by the hand of an executed man.
There was some superstition that the wen could be cured by the touch of a hanged man's hand. Calcraft was paid for this by the man with the wen, but he almost lost his job.
Best wishes,
Jeff
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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 288
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 7:03 pm: |
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Hi Jeff,
I saw that Jack Slipper of Scotland Yard died this week. Maybe he's finally got Ronnie Biggs now.
The 1903 Springfield was and is a great weapon. It's still in use today as a fine sniper rifle. To give credit where credit is due, however, it's a knockoff of the German 1898 Mauser Rifle.
Speaking of weapons that were less than resounding successes, the Norwegian 1892 Krag was the first bolt-action rifle adopted by the U.S. Military. It was relatively low powered, was slow to reload and used lubricated bullets that collected dirt in field conditions. It was also slow to change over to smokeless powder so you couldn't hide where you were shooting. For these reasons we were actually behind the Spanish in light weapons development during the 1898 war. They had the brand new Mausers.
The first I ever "heard" of Kiss was in the Colin Wilson's Introduction of Rumbelow's JTR book. I first saw a full account in a book called Unsolved! about 20 years ago and it was the story written by Le Quex.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 819
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 10:37 pm: |
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Hi Stan,
I noted Slipper's obituary in The New York Times two days ago, but while the bulk of it dealt with the train robbery and Biggs, it was mentioned that he was the detective in charge of the 1967 murder investigation of the three policeman ("FoxTrot 11"?) that involved a long pursuit of one of the murderers involved.
I know Biggs returned to the U.K. about four years back, but has he died?
I was aware of the Spanish advantages in Cuba regarding the smokeless powder and weapons. What really beat them was their naval weakness. Yet what always got me was that Cervera, the Spanish Admiral in Santiago Bay, was actually more daring and careful than Sampson or Schley who faced him. If his fleet had been a bit more modern than it was he could have won a reputation like that of Von Spee in 1914. Still, he did get bottled up, and it prevented getting new supplies to Spanish troops, which doomed them.
The armaments was not the only problem facing the U.S. troops in Cuba. There was a major scandal about tainted beef sent to feed the troops, that eventually ruined the career of Secretary of War Russell Alger. It was also the basis of a film that starred Edward G. Robinson back in the 1930s.
My first acquaintance with the Springfield rifle was when it was one of the model toy guns in a series made back in the 1960s called "Golden Guns". The Springfield came with a miniature toy bayonet. There were also a Kentucky long rifle and derringer in the series (about nine or ten guns I believe). I still have them somewhere in a draw here.
Best wishes,
Jeff
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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 290
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 8:50 pm: |
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Hi Jeff,
Yes, reports of Biggs' death were greatly exaggerated. I remember hearing that he had a heart attack and thought that finished him.
I think the Spanish had us on automatic weapons as well. We were still using Gatling guns and I believe they had some Maxim machine guns.
By WWI we'd caught up to the rest of the world and by WWII we were ahead with the M1 Garand rifle. The only place the Axis beat us was the deceptively named MP44 gun. Hitler named it Der Sturmgewehr (The Assault Rifle), a designation that survives today. The British called this type of weapon the "Machine Carbine" which makes more sense. MP stood for Maschinenpistole, the German name for what we called a submachine gun. This weapon wasn't that because it used a shortened rifle round. Submachine guns use pistol ammunition.
I must have been too old for those "Golden Guns". Were they made of plastic and did they have moving parts? Did you have to assemble them?
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 821
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 10:03 pm: |
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Hi Stan,
Leave it to the Germans to come up with such a really sensible hand weapon for their troops. They also had a better tank than we did for awhile.
There was one piece of heavy siege acquiptment I saw that really impressed me. It was used against cities, particularly Warsaw in 1943 and 1944. It was a cannon that required two flat cars to transport, and was so bulky and slow moving that it could only go three miles an hour or so when moving quickly. But the projectiles it fired could demolish a building in minutes (they were like three or four times the largest normal cannon projectiles on the two fronts). There were massive problems with this piece of ordinance - in upkeep, in moving them, in positioning them, and in the damage of the recoil, but by God it's effectiveness when it worked was incredible.
The Golden Guns were plastic with parts in metal (the barrels, and the triggers and firing mechanisms). The little bayonet was also metal.
They came in little green plastic boxes, that looked like a case for a real full size version.
The commercial jingle (cerca 1962) went something like this:
"You've seen guns for peace, and guns for war,
but you've never seen guns like these before;
Never seen guns like these before.
"Golden guns!" etc.
But although they sold for about $5.00 back then, in 1962/63 that was a great deal of money for a toy. I was lucky to get a few of them.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 292
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 8:12 pm: |
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Hi Jeff,
Those Golden Guns sound like something that might have been advertised on Saturday morning TV back then. A toy like that would probably cause an uproar today. Perhaps you've got something for Antiques Roadshow there.
Yes, both the Germans and the Soviets had us beat in tanks in WWII. We made up some of the gap with lighter, faster and more maneuverable vehicles as well as greater numbers.
You're right, those German double railroad track artillery pieces were outrageous, scaling in at 1329 tons. Only two were completed during the war. They were 80cm (31.4")(almost twice the bore of the guns on the Missouri) and fired two types of shells, a 9,500# high explosive round and a 14,000# bunker buster; range 29 miles and 24 miles respectively and were coming in at above mach 2. The guns could be elevated but not traversed. To aim in a different direction, the weapon was simply run around a curve in the railroad tracks.
Best wishes,
Stan
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 822
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 9:12 pm: |
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Hi Stan,
Precisely - Saturday and Sunday mornings (ironic to think of having toy gun commercials on either of those days, normally for religious observances). There were plenty of toys back then that remain in one's memory: Mr. Machine was one, as was the "Johnny Eagle" toy Civil War cannon. I even had a "Dick Tracy" cap pistol, and (about 1958) a "Bat Masterson" outfit, complete with cane and hat. And I seem to recall a lunchbox (originally my sister's) which had Guy Williams and Henry Calvin on it in a scene from Zorro.
But, alas, how many of us save these bygone toys or items. I have lived all my life in apartments, and one needs either a house with storage areas (i.e., attics and cellars and garages) or one must rent space in a warehouse. A few toys of my youth survive, but most are in landfill somewhere. If I have the Springfield rifle in a draw, long ago I lost the green case it came in. For it to be really valueable 1) I should have the green case, and 2) it must never have been opened or played with. What kid wants a toy under those conditions?
By my teens I had switched from guns (although they still fascinate me) to cars. I have a large number of the Lesney "Models of Yesteryear" series from England. Also some Corgis. But nowadays I know enough to save the boxes. Unfortunately, having no cabinet to display them all, they are mostly in my closets.
By the way, there is a disturbing side effect about collectibles like the "Models of Yesteryear" and similar cars. When I grew up in the 1950s and 1960s, a model of yesteryear was like the 1907 Rolls Royce Silver Ghost, or the 1926 Bentley racing car. Nowadays, I see cars from the 1950s and 1960s in the current "Models of Yesteryears" that are offered. It really dates one.
Earlier this evening I was channel surfing, and on cable channel (in Queens, New York City) 111 is a history program "Wings of the World" (I think that is the title). They were talking about the remarkable military hardware of the Italian Air Force in the 1930s and 1940s (actually the program took it into the current age, but I lost interest). They had a remarkably affective torpedo plane that was the best of any major combatant's air forces in World War II. Also, a highly maneuverable bi-plane fighter (the last bi-plane to be used in warfare) that was so good, that pilots of British Hurricanes were advised not to go for individual air duels with them. I believe the bi-plane was made by Fiat. It's one defect: it was a wooden frame! A declining ability to replace men and material (Mussolini stretched his air arm into too many war fronts, including Russia) doomed the Italian air force's effectiveness. Ironically, twice in the war he could have conquered Malta by bombing (a real setback for the Allies if he had), and both times he cut back on his attacks.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 294
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 7:44 pm: |
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Hi Jeff,
Actually, I was the opposite of you; I was more interested in cars as a child. I didn't get really into guns until I was about 45.
That Bat Masterson outfit must have been something. I know the real Bat was quite a bit different than the version played by Gene Barry on TV.
Right now, I have some Matchbox toys in my curio cabinet. I also had some Corgis but I don't know where they are. Either my parents, my brother, my ex-wife or my kids have them, I'm sure. Along those same lines, I do buy a die-cast model once in a while.
Regarding space, I bought this house 20 years ago and it has a cellar, an attic as well as a garage and the attic is the only area that has much room left. I do want to buy a bigger house some day but moving is going to be a nightmare.
Italy's WWII air force certainly has been a neglected topic. They were the only Axis Power that saw value in producing a purpose-built four-prop heavy bomber although they didn't make enough of them. The Piaggio P.108 was actually more powerful than the B-17.
Germany had the Dornier DO-19 but cancelled the project in the late 30s after only one was built; opting for two engined bombers in greater numbers but also with shorter ranges. That hurt them big time on the Eastern Front. They did have the Fulk-Wulf Condor but it was basically a redesigned passenger airliner that couldn't carry anything but a comparatively light bomb load.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 825
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 8:43 pm: |
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Hi Stan,
Actually my "gun" collecting was limited. I made a few models of pistols (including a flintlock dueling pistol and a pepperbox), but by the age of 8 or 10 I was committed to car and boat models (and some planes - I had several World War I era craft put out by Aurora. Eventually I got some by Revell as well. There were also boat models (H.M.S. Victory and the U.S.S. Maine among them). I also recall having a plastic Civil War cavalry sword in a gold scabbard.
I have picked up some die cast models (a Silver Ghost, a Packard) which now repose in my closet. Also, a cousin of mine who used to take Caribbean cruises, picked up several really early model cars (like the Vis - a - Vis De la Haye - talk about your obscure cars). I still have about three, but they are rather broken. Oddly enough I rarely showed interests in any racing cars.
One of the current problems is that I am quite a reader, so I have too many books in my home. They too take up way too much space. My main library (my bedroom) looks like a library storage area. That, by the way, is where most of my criminal history books are stored - for ready reference.
By the way, have you tried any of the series of TIME-LIFE books on the story of flying. I have about ten volumes, and they are useful as reference works. I also like their bibliographies and (of course) their illustrations.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 300
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 6:52 pm: |
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Hi Jeff,
My electricity keeps blinking off and my backup doesn't seem to be working so I'm sending this post in two parts.
Firstly, my library is my spare bedroom. I do have some Time-Life books but not the ones on flying.
I had quite a few model cars, boats, airplanes and military vehicles as a boy. Right now, I don't know if any are still around. I know I don't have them here.
More to follow........ |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 301
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 7:09 pm: |
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Part two:
Regarding die cast models, I have a Tucker (I saw a new one of those as a small child), a 65 Corvette (I had a new 66 Corvette when I was 19) and Troy Ruttman's 1952 Indianapolis 500 winning racing car.
I also have a die cast model of Clark Gable's Duesenberg SSJ. There were only two made and the other was for Gary Cooper. I believe it's Gable's because it has red panels on the sides. Cooper's was all silver, I think.
About the Delahaye, French classic cars like that, along with the Talbot-Lago and the Delage, seem to be sort of forgotten. Interesting that the French classics that don't "sound" French, that is the Bugatti and the Hispano-Suiza, are the most famous.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 827
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 9:35 pm: |
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Hi Stan,
There was an item on the internet earlier this week about a classic car show in Florida, where a Delage won a prize (I think for most attractive open classic car). The Bugatti always impressed me as the "El Greco" of classicly designed limousines because it was so elongated. As for the Hispano-Suiza, I recall that was the car that Eric von Stroheim drove Gloria Swanson around in in SUNSET BOULEVARD.
I missed the coming and going of Preston Tucker's car (I was born in 1954, which was the better part of a decade later). However, as a kid, I recall model toys of the Edsel when it appeared - ever so briefly. Can't recall the Kaiser Frazier or the Henry K.
Up to 2000 I would attend the Louis Vuitton car shows at Rockefeller Center in the autumns, looking at the great cars of the past. I even saw some very rare items, like the attempt to make a private airplane - automobile by attachable wings.
A friend of mine in Buffalo told me earlier today they had some of the heavy rains left over by Katrina there. We had a downpour this morning in Queens, but it was over in about five minutes. How are things in your area? I have been trying to think of anyone I know who lives on the Gulf or in New Orleans. I don't know any. Do you have any friends or family there? I have been looking at the destruction of the city - it's just unbelievable. It is the 2005 version of the 1900 Galveston tidal wave or the 1906 San Francisco Earthquake.
I hope the poor souls there get enough help soon. Even the World Trade Center disaster here was nothing in comparison.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 303
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 5:45 pm: |
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Hi Jeff,
Yes, I thought that was a Hispano-Suiza in Sunset Boulevard. Classic car companies seemed to have a fetish for the hyphen; Pierce-Arrow, Rolls-Royce, Isotta-Fraschini and Mercedes-Benz, in addition to H-S, for example.
The Bugatti Royale is most seen as the classic of classics at least as far as available models are concerned. I guess the ultimate of ultimates would be the Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost of 1906/7.
Regarding the 1948 Tucker, I'm not sure if I have a fuzzy memory of it or not. I do remember seeing a car at a dealer when I was very young but I can't be sure if that was it. My parents do say I was there however and I can remember some things when I was in the latter portion of being one year old. Whatever, they're not sure if Preston was there or not.
I have seen the AiroCar (I'm sort of guessing about the name) on TV and it was kind of like the AmphiCar, that is, a lousy airplane as well as a lousy car.
The closest friend I have to New Orleans, as best I can recall, is in Memphis and they just got heavy rain from Katrina. All we got here were some clouds on Tuesday. We're about 10" behind for rainfall this year.
Yes, it would be awful to lose your home and all that was in it. I've thought about losing my house and all my belongings to a fire or a tornado and I think it would be almost like losing a member of the family. Add losing a loved one to that and I think it would be difficult to go on.
I feel for those people, that is, except for those thugs who are preying on the vulnerable. That's why every adult should have at least two firearms. There are times when the only law enforcement might be just you. As of now, all I can do is hope the best for them.
The devastation is so complete that it might rival Galveston in deaths. That's significant because they didn't really have any warnings in 1900.
Best wishes,
Stan
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David O'Flaherty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 1009
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 6:46 pm: |
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Hi Jeffrey and Stan,
Every time you mention your libraries, I am always favorably reminded of Christopher Morley's Haunted Bookshop.
People need books, but they don't know they need them. Generally they are not aware that the books they need are in existence.
Cheers,
Dave |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 828
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 8:49 pm: |
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Hi Stan and Dave,
The aero car was a curiosity, at best. It was supposed to be the wave of the future in the 1940s and 1950s - POPULAR MECHANICS and similar magazines talked of how the day would come when the average man would have a private airplane or a hybrid auto/plane to travel even further, and avoid long traffic jams. Of course it was an oversimplification of traffic congestion problems (it really would have made for congestion in air travel, not to mention more dangers for people in the auto/plane hybrids should wings or propellers fall off). It was one of those seemingly brilliant future prophecies that just were not well thought out - like the zeppelins that were to be the solution for long distance flying in the 1920s and 1930s (although they seem to be making a small comback in the lake country of Germany again). Years ago I saw a Popular Mechanics from 1930 or so with such a prediction by Admiral William Moffett. Admiral Moffett was one of the casualties in the crash of the zeppelin U.S.S. Akron in the Atlantic off New Jersey in 1933. Moffett Field in California is named for him.
There is a book about the Galveston disaster entitled ISAAC'S STORM that came out about four years ago. The author of it was Erik Larson, who wrote THE DEVIL IN THE WHITE CITY about the World Columbian Exposition of 1893-94 and the homicidal success of Herman Webster Mudgett (a.k.a. "Dr. Harry Howard Holmes") with his world's fair hotel in Chicago. In ISAAC'S STORM he actually shows that there were warnings about a serious hurricane threat to Galveston, but that racism deterred the local, state, and national authorities from paying attention to the warnings (the warnings came from Cuban weather forecasters, who had literally centuries of training on watching such disturbances, but who were mostly dark skinned - and so were dismissed by the light skinned weather forecasters in the U.S.).
There is no film about Galveston and it's 1900 disaster, but it is mentioned (in passing) in the musical MEET ME IN ST. LOUIS. Tootie (Margaret O'Brien) is at the World's Fair in St. Louis with her family as the film ends, and she tells them how she saw a panorama of the tidal wave hitting Galveston, leaving many "dead" bodies floating about. "It was horrible", she gleefully tells her family. That is the only reference to that disaster I have ever seen in a motion picture.
The stories coming out daily from New Orleans and the gulf coast hit by Katrina boggle the mind. I have lived half a century in this country, and have seen many natural disasters. Nothing in my memory is like this - no tornado (no matter how awful in terms of deaths), or earthquakes in the U.S. (compare the 1989 Bay area quake in California, or the 1964 Alaskan quake - both pretty bad - to this). They are talking of thousands of dead, and it may get far worse due to disease. It only reminds us that no matter how wealthy or powerful we seem to be, "mother nature" can knock us for a loop at a moment's notice.
Dave I fully agree that we need books - today I used one of the days I took off from work to visit the New York Historical Society (couldn't find anything about Doc Tumblety, D'Onston, or Inspector Byrnes - the last surprises me a little). But I visited their book/gift shop and purchased Kenneth D. Ackerman's DARK HORSE: THE SURPRISE ELECTION AND POLITICAL MURDER OF PRESIDENT JAMES A. GARFIELD (New York: Carroll & Graf, 2003, 2004). It was a choice between this and a similar book entitled MURDERING MCKINLEY, which I will save for another visit. Garfield's death is a fascinating one, as he spent more of his brief term in office dying than any other President (proportionally speaking). He and McKinley probably died more from medical bungling than from the actual shootings involved (unlike Lincoln and Kennedy). Unfortunately for Charles Guiteau, he was the only person at his own trial who suggested this, and nobody really was in the mood to accept his point of view.
There is an equally fascinating study of Guiteau and the insanity defense called THE TRIAL OF THE ASSASSIN GUITEAU by Charles Rosenberg. It was written back in the 1960s, but there was a paperback edition that I read.
I have never read anything by Christopher Morley, except for the Introduction for the American edition of the Sherlock Holmes stories (he was a founder of the Baker Street Irregulars). I have seen the Ginger Rogers' movie KITTY FOYLE (which is his best recalled piece of fiction). Occasionally I see copies of PARNASSUS ON WHEELS and THE HAUNTED BOOK SHOP in book stores, but I've yet to purchase copies.
Best wishes,
Jeff
|
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 307
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 6:09 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff and Dave,
I saw the TV program entitled Isaac's Storm a while back and from what I understood there weren't any specific warnings that the storm was going to hit Galveston until it was too late to take much preventative action. There were reports from Caribbean Islands and ships coming into port that there was a storm in the gulf but it could have hit Mexico, Texas, Louisiana as well as many other places or even petered out and hit nothing. We have enough trouble today predicting the paths of these storms and we have computers, spotter planes, radio communications plus satellite photos.
Best wishes,
Stan
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 830
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 8:02 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
It is ironic, given the constant attention of the destructive hurricanes in Florida (and the southern Atlantic coast) little attention was ever given to the Gulf Coast area, and it has now (twice) been where the worst hurricane disasters occurred, in Galvaston and in New Orleans a century apart. Yes, we still have trouble about predicting paths, but we seem light years away from 1900 for at least a week or so before the hurricane hits. Katrina was a growing threat all of the previous week to it's landfall.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 309
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, September 03, 2005 - 12:30 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Andrew and Katrina were almost category 5 storms when they made landfall. I've heard it stated that the only true category 5 hurricanes to hit the United States (I'm not sure if any category 5 typhoons have hit Hawaii.) were Camille and the storm that hit Florida in 1935. I wonder if anyone has given a strength estimate for the Galveston hurricane. I should think it would have been either a strong 4 or a 5. Excepting Civil War battles, I can't think of any other event where more than 6000 people were killed on American soil.
Best wishes,
Stan
(Message edited by Sreid on September 03, 2005) |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 831
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 04, 2005 - 1:54 am: |
|
Hi Stan,
The reevaluated losses of the San Francisco Earthquake and Fire of 1906 was more than 5,000 (rather than the 500 person loss figure that was given for years by San Francisco authorities). The Peshwigo Fire of October 1871 was supposed to kill about 1,000 to 1,300 people. The Chicago Fire was supposed to kill about 450 people (of course that figure could have been lied about too). The only natural occurence that caused so much death and destruction at once may have been the worst weeks of the 1918 - 1919 Influenza Outbreak, which killed about 10,000 at the highest point of the outbreak. There were also some Cholera and Smallpox epidemics that swept the country from time to time in the 19th and early 20th Centuries.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 311
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 04, 2005 - 2:16 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Regarding American events that resulted in "thousands of deaths", I have heard that figure asserted by a few in connection with the draft riots during the Civil War. That would be difficult to verify however.
There was a show on The History Channel today about the Presidents. One of their factoids said that the character, "The Wizard of Oz", was based on McKinley. I hadn't heard that one before.
Yesterday on IMDb, I saw that there's a film entitled Stompanato due out in 2007 with Keanu Reeves in the title role. That could be interesting of they do it in an L.A. Confidential style. I know "Johnny" had a cameo in that film. Maybe they can get Danny DeVito to "resurrect" his sleazy photographer role. My guess is that it was based on Arthur "Weegee" Fellig although transposed to the West Coast.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 314
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 04, 2005 - 6:48 pm: |
|
P.S.
I see that there's also Moors Murders movie due out next year, although, I think it's for British television.
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 833
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 04, 2005 - 10:40 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
When I was growing up, the number given as killed in the New York City Draft Riots only was about 1,200. But in recent years I have seen people put it at about 200 - 400 people. It is hard to say - many of the dead were dragged off the street by their families and friends (my guess is that they did not want to be linked by dead friends and relatives to the looting and killing, so they took back their dead for self-protection).
I have heard that when W. W. Denslow drew the "wonderful wizard" of Oz, he based it on the leading magician of the era (I can't recall his name). But I heard this from a talking head on a program about the history of magic. However, McKinley might have been an influence on Baum's writings. In his first sequel, "THE MARVELOUS LAND OF OZ", the Emerald City is briefly seized by an army of women led by General Jinjer - which is based on the suffragette movement. And in Erik Larson's THE DEVIL IN THE WHITE CITY the Emerald City may have been suggested to Baum by the Chicago "White City" of the 1893 World's Fair.
How are they going to present Johnny Stompanato on film. Isn't Lana Turner's daughter still alive? Wouldn't she have some objections?
As for a movie about the Moors Murders, I hope that that bastard doesn't get a dime from the movie company for "his original idea".
Best wishes,
Jeff
|
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 316
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 5:16 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Yes, the casualties from the NYC draft riots would be open to varied speculation. Additionally, you have the riots that occurred in others cities at the same time.
I'd certainly agree with your wish that Brady shouldn't financially benefit from his hideous crimes. Maybe ITV can use their profits to help defray some of the costs of housing him for the last forty years.
The IMDb site doesn't have anything to say about how Stampanato will be presented. It just states the subject matter and names two actors. Catherine Zeta-Jones portrays Turner.
Her daughter is still alive so I'd expect that might influence how the story is told. Maybe they could have Johnny stabbed out of frame and let "the theater of the mind" take care of it.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 835
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 6:22 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
From what I have heard, in recent years Cheryl has hinted that Lana stabbed Johnny, not Cheryl (as was said - and as most people believe). But even so, it is one homicide case where sympathy is so entirely with both leading suspects that nobody cares who really did it. Whoever did apparently did a public service in getting rid of this human brute. The sad thing is Turner actually fell for him.
As for the movie about the Moor Murders, the money should be given to the families of Kilbride and the other four kids who were tortured and slaughtered by the two pigs. I hope Ian does see his Myra soon - hopefully on a spit surrounded by devils, with another one waiting for him as well (sorry for the explicitness of these feelings).
I don't even know if there were fatalities in the draft riots in Boston, Cincinatti, Chicago...I imagine there were, but nothing compared to what happened in Manhattan. There was a musical called MAGGIE FLYNN about the draft riots, which I saw a revival of in 1970 or so.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 317
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 1:05 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
As I recall, the draft riots were depicted in Gangs of New York as well.
Yes, I would say that Lana Turner must have had some "issues" to slum with that Mickey Cohen affiliated thug Stompanato. I've also heard the assertion that she really did it and let her daughter take the heat. If that's true, it doesn't say much for the character of Turner. I find it a little hard to believe that it happened that way because I would think that Cheryl would clear that matter up now to remove the stigma from herself. If I remember correctly, she did write a book on the topic.
Best wishes,
Stan
(Message edited by Sreid on September 06, 2005) |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 837
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 8:38 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I was too young (only two or three) when the Stompanato killing affair took place so I really cannot make any comment regarding it's impact. I realize that it is the event most people immediately think about when considering Lana Turner. But did her career collapse after that murder, or did it continue along for a decade or so? I know she did IMITATION OF LIFE a few years after the murder. Is that considered Lana's last major film?
Although GANGS OF NEW YORK got the right feel of the nightmare of the Five Points in the 1850s and early 1860s, there were a lot of complaints about the liberties Scorsese took with history. The villain, Bill the Butcher, is based on Bill Poole (murdered in 1856 in a barroom), so he could not have been involved in the 1863 Draft Riots. Also, Bill Poole was a nativist (as is the character in the movie). He would not have had an alliance with William M. Tweed and Tammany Hall, as they were committed to helping the immigrants groups (especially the Irish). But the movie does get a good feel for the period.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 321
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 6:15 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I liked the gritty look in Gangs of New York as well. It reminded me a little of the squalid reality in The Doctor and the Devils based on Burke and Hare. I'd also heard the complaint about "Bill" being dead at the time of the draft riots voiced on a History Channel show. Just a little cinematic license I guess.
Yes, I do remember well all the business with Turner, Crane and Stompanato being on the news every day and seeing the film of Lana's testimony. It was quite unusual to see any legal proceeding at that time. The only previous occasions I can recall were Dr. Sam Sheppard (wearing his ridiculous neck brace) and Bruno Hauptmann.
As far as the effect the scandal had on Turner's career went, it was waning at that time anyway and I didn't notice that she paid much of a price one way or the other. If the public affixed any blame, I think they mostly put it on Cheryl.
Best wishes,
Stan
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 840
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 10:57 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
THE DOCTOR AND THE DEVILS was pretty good, actually. I saw it when it first came out in the early 1980s. Mel Brooks, I think, produced it. It's based on a play by Dylan Thomas. But it's not my favorite film based on Burke and Hare. There is MANIA with Peter Cushing as Knox, & George Rose and Donald Pleasance as the two Williams. Pleasance had one of the best dark comic lines I ever heard. When the two Williams are confronted by "Daft Jamie" about the murder of Mary Patterson, and he demands blackmail, Rose/Burke (who is the slower of the two) asks what it means. Pleasance/Hare says, "It means Daft Jamie isn't so daft!"
Besides that, of course, is THE BODY SNATCHER, which is the best thinking man's version of the story. Finally there is the comic version, THE COMEDY OF TERRORS, wherein Vincent Price and Peter Lorre are undertakers who make their own clientele.
Hauptmann's trial was shown in newsreels probably because of the nature of the victim's family. I never quite understood the national obsession with the Sheppard Case when it first came to trial. I guess I had to be older to understand it.
Best wishes,
Jeff
|
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 325
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 6:24 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I haven't seen Mania or Comedy of Errors so I should look those up. From what I recall, The Body Snatcher wasn't much like the actual case. I wrote a brief review of The Doctor and the Devils for CrimeBeat Magazine back in the early 90s. When I was going through all the films on IMDb, I think there were several other movies that were reputed to be based on Burke and Hare but I'd have to go over my list to see what they were.
The Sheppard Case always held my interest to some degree. I guess it was all the unresolved possibilities.
Back to Huey Long and Joseph McCarthy, I see that we have two films coming out later this year based on each. Sean Penn plays "The Kingfish" in All the King's Men. The other film,Good Night and Good Luck, is about the battle between Joe and Edward R. Murrow.
Best wishes,
Stan
(Message edited by Sreid on September 08, 2005) |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 326
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 7:05 pm: |
|
P.S.
I had three other movies supposedly based on Burke and Hare. They were: The Greed of William Hart (1945), The Anatomist (1961) and Burke and Hare (1971). I don't recall seeing any of them.
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 842
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 7:58 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I haven't seen these three. THE GREED OF WILLIAM HART should have a kind of scholarly interest - it's one of Tod Slaughter's movies. Slaughter's films were the old Victorian melodramas that he was so popular in playing deeply into the 20th Century (SWEENEY TODD and THE FACE IN THE WINDOW are two of the others).
These over-the-top melodramas are hootable nowadays, but Slaughter was able to squeeze out whatever juice was still in them. THE GREED OF WILLIAM HART has Slaughter playing Burke - for some reason they would not allow him to use the name William Burke, only William Hart. Somehow Hart and Hare sounds like a vaudeville team, not a pair of sinister killers.
There is also one of the "Doctors in the House" comedies in which two young doctors are named Burke and Hare.
THE BODY SNATCHER is not strictly based on Burke and Hare, but relates to it. It's originally based on a fine short story of Robert Louis Stevenson, and the doctor in it (McFarlane) was an associate of Knox, who still uses Resurrectionists to get cadavers. It is different from the story, in that Gray is an acquaintance of McFarlane (not an actually body snatcher) whom the doctor kills and dissects. The conclusion of the story is the same as the movie (except that McFarlane just runs off into oblivion - he doesn't die).
Stevenson wrote several works suggested by actual crime or legal figures. DR. JECKYLL AND MR. HYDE was suggested in part by the career of Deacon Brodie, the member of the Edinburgh town council who was a carpenter by day and a burglar by night. The short story MARKHEIM has it's hero/antihero come into a room like the Chamber of Horrors in the wax museum, including Mrs. Brownrigg and Thurtell killing Weare. KIDNAPPED has a plot involving the still unresolved "Appin" murder of "The Red Fox" of the Campbell family in 1752 (the story is carried further into the sequel CATRIONA). WEIR OF HERMISTON deals with Justice Weir, who is based (slightly unfairly) on Justice Lord Braxfield.
I really can't see Sean Penn as Willie Stark/Huey Long. He has to be physically pudgier. It's about time some theatrical film about Joe McCarthy came out. The only ones that I know of are TAIL GUNNER JOE, with Peter Boyle as the Senator, and CITIZEN COHN with James Wood as Roy Cohn and Joe Don Baker as McCarthy, and they were both for television (CITIZEN COHN being for cable television). I wonder who will play the Senator and who will play Murrow.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 327
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 09, 2005 - 1:53 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I always wanted to see Tod Slaughter's The Murder in the Red Barn. From what I've read, it looks like a filmed stage play.
They are just going to use file footage of McCarthy in Good Night and Good Luck. David Strathairn, who did a great job as Delores Clairborne's slime ball husband, is portraying Murrow. He's also in another film coming out later this year about the Scottsboro Boys entitled Heavens Fall.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 844
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 09, 2005 - 11:02 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
There is also a version of THE WOMAN IN WHITE with Slaughter, I think called MYSTERIES OF THE OLD HOUSE. Slaughter is not Count Fosco in it, but Sir Percival Glyde.
I am surprised that they would go to such a great deal of time and money making GOOD NIGHT AND GOOD LUCK, and then skimp on casting some actor as McCarthy (Gene Hackman suggests himself to me as potentially good in the role). Possibly the film deals with more of the newsman's career through World War II until the television work like "Harvest of Shame". As for the Scottsboro Boys' film (HEAVENS FALL) is Strathairn one of the defence team - could he be Samuel Leibowitz? He hardly resembles that lawyer (neither did Murrow). I shall be interested in that film as well.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 332
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, September 10, 2005 - 4:45 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Besides skimping on an actor for Good Night and Good Luck they're making it in black and white as well, although I'm sure they'll say it's for effect. I wonder if Strathairn will have to smoke seven packs of cigarettes a day to get into character. The other day, I was thinking who would be our McCarthy today and the best candidate I could come up with was Jesse Jackson.
As for Heavens Fall, Strathairn is playing Judge Horton. Timothy Hutton is cast as Leibowitz.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 846
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 10, 2005 - 8:20 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
Boy, talk about moviedom's recasting problems. Timothy Hutton looks nothing like Sam Leibowitz (unless his head is made to be balding with a fringe of curly hair). If you can find it in a second hand book shop, try to locate a book by Leibowitz (I think the title was COURTROOM) where he discussed a dozen of his best known criminal cases, including his successful defense of "Mad Dog" Coll for killing a child in a shooting and his defense of Police Officer Dooley for shooting the Mayor of the Nassau County, NY town of Long Beach.
The use of black and white film is not a real problem. It does help the audience concentrate on the movie's content, instead of considering how accurate the color, clothing, backgrounds, props, etc. are.
Why Jesse Jackson?
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 339
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 11, 2005 - 6:03 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I left a response to your post on that profile site.
Regarding Jackson, like old Joe, he likes to bask in the glow after making some hysterical charge with absolutely no evidence to back it up. Also with him, your a racist until proven otherwise.
I remember seeing a publication about the Scottsboro Boys Case at a book store some years back. I didn't buy it because I'm pretty much interested only in murder nor do I recall who the author was. Some states had the death penalty for rape so if they were executed that would have been a kind of murder but fortunately that wasn't the case.
As far as black and white films go, I don't have a really big problem with them because usually, after about two minutes, I forget that they're in grayscale. I do remember as a child, though, my heart sinking when we went to a movie and it came on the screen in black and white. A lot of times the photographic frames that were shown under the poster in front of theater would be in color even if the film was in black and white. A little false advertising, I'd say.
I saw in yesterday's paper that it was the 28th anniversary of France's last guillotining. Not so sure if that's a good thing or not.
Best wishes,
Stan
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 849
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 11, 2005 - 10:13 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I noted the answer about Bertillionage that you referred to. I'm not exactly sure what measurements (aside from height and weight and the ears) are still kept. It is like just additional details.
Actually I think Jackson is pretty much a spent force. It's hard to believe but Rev. Al Sharpton, an untrustworthy type if anyone is, has more effect these days than Jackson does. Jackson's problem was he was too demanding - he would not consider running for any office that was too beneath his contempt. Once he ran for the nomination in 1984, he could have tried for Mayor of Chicago or Governor of Illinois or Congressman from a district there. He kept saying no, supposedly because he hoped he'd be the first Senator from the new 51st State of the District of Columbia. I can only think of one other politician who was as pretentions and capricious about running for offices as Jackson was in the current age: Governor Mario Cuomo. He literally wanted the nomination for the Presidency handed to him in 1992, and kept putting off taking a short plane trip to New Hampshire for the first primary until it was too late.
Black and white is acceptable to me, because it sometimes looks cleaner than the color film (the way color film can wear away unless carefully preserved). The thing that gets me is the attempts at colorization. Most of them were quite unattractive.
I can't recall the book on Scottsboro, but I'll try to find a name and author if I can.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 342
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, September 12, 2005 - 5:15 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
At least Sharpton shows signs of having a sense of humor once in a while. Cuomo is a mystery to me. It looked like he could have had the nomination at one time if he'd just run. I know a lot of people think that someone had something on him that he knew would get out if he ran.
Yes, black and white is more durable than color. Colorized movies right now don't even look as good as the old two-color process but I expect that will change fairly soon. I was never one of those who thought that it was a sacrilege to color a monochrome film. Before that, nobody seemed to be all that excited about cutting out R-rated scenes for television or showing high aspect ratio movies on there with 20% of the frame chopped off of each side.
Nor did I hear any protests when older films were rereleased in stereo when they were originally shown with mono sound. I've been waiting for someone to reissue and old silent movie with dubbed in dialog. I bet that would cause some controversy. Or maybe somebody already has and I haven't heard about it.
Best wishes,
Stan
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 850
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 12, 2005 - 9:19 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I know of only one example of a silent film that was reissued with dubbed dialog. There are a series of interesting videos (hopefully they are on DVD) of the Laurel and Hardy silent comedies. I bought about a dozen of these, like THE BATTLE OF THE CENTURY and EARLY TO BED. They have one of DOUBLE WHOOPIE (where they spoof Eric Von Stroheim's "Crown Prince" from FOOLISH WIVES). Jean Harlow is in it in an early role. There are two versions they sold of it. One was of the regular film, but the other was of the film with dialog. Apparently they had a lip reader read the lips of Stan, Ollie, and the others (including Ms Harlow), and then got a variety of people (including "Sons of the Desert" Member and founder Chuck McCann) do the voices (McCann can do imitations of both Stan and Ollie). I never bought that one, but it is the only time I saw anyone try that trick with a silent film.
Occasionally when watching a silent movie I can tell a comment made by the actors. In the film WHAT PRICE GLORY? when Victor Maglaglen and Edmund Lowe argued you could tell when Lowe said "Son of a bitch!" or "Damn you!" to Maglaglen. Some comments by Buster Keaton are visuably audible because they were a running joke. He liked to name boats in his films "Damfino". It's a consolidated way of him saying "Damned if I know!" when questioned.
I think the reason that nobody questioned the use of stereo on the older mono sound was because the stereo actually made the sound more understandable (as digital work nowadays does it even more). My problem with colorization is that you really wonder how accurate it is. If you have family portraits or other color film of the actors, yeah that is possible. But the backgrounds and props are another matter. But I suppose they try to be careful about this.
Best wishes,
Jeff
|
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 346
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 5:39 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I'm surprised they went to the trouble to hire lip readers on that movie. I never figured the actors were actually saying what was shown on the dialog placards in silent films anyway.
One more thing on colorizing; it has been used with some very good effect to restore the tone to old faded color films. I've heard no objection to its use there nor would I expect to.
Probably the first form of "film tampering", excluding censorship, was when some the early 50s 3-D movies were shown at some retro-theaters in 2-D.
There were two shows on The History Channel last night that featured the Galveston storm of 1900.
One said that the hurricane was a category 4 and the other raised the death toll to 8000.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 852
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 8:50 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I think that the reason that DOUBLE WHOOPIE got that treatment is that there is a running gag - a foreign prince at this hotel (dressed like von Stroheim in FOOLISH WIVES) is followed constantly by crowds of people, including reporters. In his spotless, perfect uniform, he turns around as he is about to enter the hotel elevator, and makes some diplomatic pronouncement or other which occupies everyone's attention. In the meantime, Ollie and Stan get into the elevator, and move it up for some reason without closing the door. His highness thanks the reporters, turns, and falls into the elevator shaft. When they get him out his spotless clothes is covered in dirt and grease. The gag is timed three or four times in the film. It is obvious that it would be of interest to know what his comments are that are so fascinating.
They may be topical (for 1929) too. In the contemporary silent comedy short, TWO TARS, Ollie and Stan are U.S. navy seamen, and when they meet to girls, Ollie brags that they are under orders from Secretary of the Navy Curtis Wilbur. Now who (outside of fans of Herbert Hoover's cabinet) would remember him?
The enhancement of color on those early films (like THE GREAT TRAIN ROBBERY, or like the fantasy films of George Melies) is understandable. They were hand tinted, so redoing the faded coloring job is understandable, even laudable. It is similar to restoring the actual silent film scores to the sound tracks on the better Videos and DVDs.
There are two good 3-D films that are shown in 2-D as well. One is Hitchcock's DIAL "M" FOR MURDER. The other is Robert Ryan's film INFERNO, which has a wonderful performance like Ryan as a millionaire who proves more adaptable than his enemies thought.
I heard on the news the other day (the 105th Anniversary of the Galveston storm) that the death toll was 10,000. It probably is in general area from 6,000 to 10,000.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 347
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 7:14 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I've been a fan of 3-D movies since I went to see Bwana Devil at age six with my parents in 1952. Like almost all films released in the process, it wasn't very good but at the time I didn't care. I guess it was sort of remade as The Ghost and the Darkness.
I'm still holding out hope that Dial "M" for Murder will someday be released in 3-D on DVD. The technology exists now to do it up right.
As best I can recall, I haven't seen Inferno but it sounds like one to be on the lookout for. Robert Ryan is somewhat overlooked as far as good actors go. Loved him in The Set-Up.
Interesting that Laurel and Hardy made the first silent film to be dubbed with sound (I noticed that they waited until they were both dead before they did it). If I remember correctly, one of their shorts was also the first black and white film to be colorized.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 853
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 9:04 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
One of the first colorized films was L & H's sound classic HELPMATES, wherein Stan comes over to help Ollie clean up after a party, before his wife shows up, and manages to burn the house down. Also their feature film (maybe their best one) WAY OUT WEST was colorized. There was an interesting problem regarding colorization and L & H. Stan's pupils were rather small, and the early colorization made them look like ink dots.
I haven't followed if any of the Hitchcock DVD collections contain the 3D DIAL M. If they put that with ROPE and one or two others with elaborate camera work (FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT, for example) they might have a potential package for selling.
I have never seen BWANA DEVIL, so I have no way of judging it. It sounds like most of it's budget must have been used for the 3D process, especially if it was made at a small or "independent" studio.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 348
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 6:07 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I think I saw Dial "M" for Murder in one of the Hitchcock DVD packets but I don't remember what else was with it. Since I'm holding out for the 3-D version, I didn't consider buying it.
In my view, your right about most of the budget for Bwana Devil going to develop the 3-D process. United Artists distributed the film but I think they jumped on the bandwagon after the movie was completed by an independant producer.
On colorization, I wonder if anyone has tried to "upgrade" any of the old two-color films to full three-color. Of all the film types, I think this is the rarest form and I, for one, like the sort of surreal look of them. Since grayscale films are still made, I wonder if anybody has ever thought of making a new movie in this process. I imagine bluish-green and reddish-orange film strips might be a little hard to come by these days.
The 2004 film Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow had the look of the two-color process. I suppose through the use of CG. That's probably as close as we'll ever get.
I don't know if Laurel and Hardy ever did anything in two-color but The Three Stooges did. They had at least one 3-D short as well so they pretty much had all the formats covered with the possible exception of silent.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 855
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 9:05 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I recall seeing some of the Stooges 3-D shorts, which ended up having pies and items thrown at the cameras. Actually it sort of took away the effect of the slapstick because it delayed the conclusion.
How was SKY CAPTAIN AND THE WORLD OF TOMORROW?
It sort of impressed me that nearly two decades after his death Laurence Olivier played the villain in a new movie. It's like several Coca Cola commercials in the late 1990s that had "guest appearances" of Cary Grant, Gene Kelly, Groucho Marx, and Marilyn Monroe (the last was particularly spooky, as she was another actress who suddenly changed into her. There was also a commercial about a beer, with John Wayne as a general chewing out an officious sergeant.
3-D is still a possibly exciting idea for film, and with computers it's abilities to stretch reality are increased. But one version of film that mercifully died was "Smell-o-vision", which was tried out in the late 1950s and early 1960s. One feature film was made with it, starring Denholm Elliot and Peter Lorre: SCENT OF DANGER (I think that was the title). But what audience would put up with certain pungent odors that have to be used if one seeks total reality. Perfume or flowers are okay. What if the film is set on a farm, and you pass pig styes or dung heaps? The idea did not work too well.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 351
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 6:26 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I saw Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow at the theater as well as have it on DVD and liked it quite a lot. Most of the critics turned up their noses at it, I think, because primarily it's an effects movie.
Actually, I remember when Smell-o-Vision came out but I don't believe it ever played in Peoria. It reminds me of some of the theater added effects that were more common in the silent era, beyond the usual live music. I know some of the larger facilities had a sort of back stage Foley artist to add sound effects such as bangs for gunshots and whistles for steam locomotives. The projectionists would also use tinted lens covers to add some color like blue for a ship at sea, yellow for caravan in the desert or green for a jungle scene.
As far as Olivier and others being "resurrected" for new films, I remember when Brandon Lee's face was digitally added to a stand-in when he was killed before a film was completed. I imagine we will see more of this in the future.
Back to adding sound onto silent films, although no dialog is dubbed, I do have a DVD of The Hunchback of Notre Dame with Lon Chaney which has some sound put in. They added sound effects like the ringing of the bells and the murmurs of the masses for the crowd scenes.
I said yesterday that I didn't think The Three Stooges made any silent films but I found that Moe and Shemp did appaear in one together; a sort of two stooges, one might say. I don't believe Shemp was in any color films but wouldn't it be odd if the only actor to appear in all six of the basic types of cinema was Moe Howard? Those six being: silent, sound, black and white, two-color, full color and 3-D.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 857
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 10:28 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I don't think it would be so odd if Moe Howard was the only actor to be in all six basic types of cinema. Someone had to. That reminds me of an acquaintance of mine, years ago, a newspaper editor in a small town in Pennsylvania. He insisted (tongue in cheek, of course) that Moe actually ruled Nazi Germany throughout World War II, based on his performances as "Moe Hailstorm" in HIGHER THAN A KITE and I'LL NEVER HEIL AGAIN.
There is a mystery involving the Stooges - actually regarding their mentor, a comic named Ted Healey, who created the Stooges as part of his act. Healey was the one who invented all the physical mayhem in the team, poking and slapping them for emphasis when they made their stupid/funny comments. But he himself was something of a cheat and a mean drunk, and the Howards and Larry Fine dumped him after awhile. Healey (in Hollywood) did do a few films with them (MEET THE BARON, DANCING LADY), but he eventually went his on way. He really wasn't very funny. You can see him as a suspicious reporter in MAD LOVE with Peter Lorre and with Clark Gable and Jeanette MacDonald in SAN FRANCISCO (possibly his best role - he dies in the earthquake).
He died in 1936 supposedly from pneumonia caught after celebrating (i.e. drinking) too much in the cold of winter, and getting over-exposed. He had just remarried, and his wife had a child. But Mrs. Healey insisted he had been beaten severely, and died of the injuries. Rumors went around (generally dismissed or denied) that Healey and a big Hollywood star got involved in a drunken brawl, and Healey got the worst of it. The star (I have heard, but seen nothing to prove it) was supposed to be Wallace Beery.
Smell-o-vision required a large outdoor theatre, because no theatre owner would have been willing to have the residue of odors seeping into their buildings. I think SCENT OF MYSTERY may have been showed on Long Island at the Jones Beach Theatre, but I can't recall anymore.
The use of sound effects in silent films is something I can recall from the 1960s. Whenever a film was shown on television (like Chaplin's EASY STREET) small noises for emphasis (a noise when somebody sits on a tack for example) were added. I never thought it hurt the films. But then I never was a total purist on these matters.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 358
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 6:09 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I remembered that Ted Healey formed The Stooges and that he died sort of mysteriously but I hadn't heard the Wallace Beery story. He certainly looked like a guy you shouldn't mess with.
In the beginning, there was actually a fourth Stooge, I believe his name was Fred Sanborn or something close to that. He was a silent sort of "Harpo" Stooge. After the first movie, he vanished, although, I'm not sure why. After the original troop, Moe, Larry and Shemp, left, Healey replaced them with another Three Stooges but the act didn't last long. I don't remember their names except I think one was called Moussie or something of the like. Because of TV, a lot of people think that Curly was an original and was replaced by Shemp but it was the other way around at first and then Shemp came back after Curly began to have health problems.
As far as dead actors being brought back into films, I know they expect to be able to create actors in CG soon that you won't be able to tell from living people. Maybe we'll have a new John Wayne movie in 2015!
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 859
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 10:47 pm: |
|
Hi Steve,
Sanborn, from what I understand, was pushed onto the team in that first movie (the name escapes me) where they play firemen whose firehouse is next to a costume store owned by Charles Winninger. Healey is in the film too, as the fire chief. Sanborn had an odd act where he was totally silent, played (or wrecked) a xylophone, and did minor "cute" magic tricks. As neither the Howards and Fine, nor Healey, used him again, one can imagine what they thought of being tied to him in that first film.
Shemp, unlike Moe, Larry and Curly, had a long career as a comic on his own, and briefly teamed with Billy Gilbert and Maxie Rosenblum. He appeared opposite W.C.Fields in THE BANK DICK (as the bar owner), and has a wonderful moment in Rene Claire's FLAME OF NEW ORLEANS as the owner/waiter in a dive where Roland Young and Melville Cooper show up. Although Curley was the most original of the major stooges (I never thought very highly of Joe Besser or Joe DeRita)
Shemp did quite nicely.
I wouldn't mind a new Wayne film in 2015, or even a new one with Gable, Cooper, Power, Flynn, or Warner Baxter for that matter. But it will still take some time to get use to that kind of film, knowing that one of the stars is actually long dead.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 362
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 7:38 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Yes, I agree that the Stooges were lacking when Besser and DeRita were members but Moe and Larry were pretty old by then and had lost some of their own edge as well. I also thought of a seventh type of "cinema" that Moe "stared" in; he, and the other Stooges at the time, voiced his own character in the 60s cartoon series. Add to that stage, TV and, I suppose, radio; what a varied career.
Last night, America's Most Wanted featured the Brian Wells case - the guy who was killed by the neck bomb after he was supposedly forced to rob a bank with the device locked on him. What a bizarre crime! I thought the Alphabet Murders, J. Hartigan and the so called Zip-Gun Bomber were weird but this tops those, I think. I recorded the program on DVD and need to do some A-B editing to get it down to just this case which I believe should run about 30 minutes.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 860
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 9:40 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I am surprised, I thought my message got on last night. To be truthful it was not much - I only said that Besser occasionally said something funny (in one of the shorts he starts going hysterical about possibly dying, as he has not seen THE EDDIE DUCHIN STORY yet). But his personality (his normal schtick personality - like his "Stinky" on the Abbott and Costello televsion show - was an acquired taste. Joe De Rita could be funny on rare occasions, but he looked like he was available for Moe to poke or hit.
As for the cartoons, they were really half cartoon (the central portion) and had a movie opening and closing with the Stooges. It was interesting, but the cartoons were pretty mediocre in quality.
Moe actually planned (after Larry's death) to keep the Stooges going with Emil Sitka taking over Larry's part, and another "Curley" clone as well. It was ended by Moe's death.
I remember the death of Brian Wells a few years back. It was a weird case, and I am surprised that nothing has been settled about it yet (whether it was accidental suicide or a really odd murder-extortion plot).
Best wishes (and I hope this time it goes through).
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 372
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 6:01 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Yes, this site was screwed up yesterday. I had a heck of a time getting on it and when I did I couldn't get it to let me do anything.
I actually think that Sitka would have made a great replacement for Larry; maybe even an improvement. Because of all the work he'd done with the Stooges, a lot of people regarded him as the "fourth stooge" already. Wonder who would have been De Rita's substitute?
As for the death of Brian Wells, I find it a long shot that the matter was a suicide or a stunt gone wrong and suspect an extortion/murder. The implication seems to be that he was a little eccentric but he looks way too mild to be totally diabolical.
I see that the next tropical storm is going to be named Hurricane Stan. Hope it doesn't blacken my name.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 862
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 8:12 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I just hope these new hurricanes won't do the type of damage we have seen hit New Orleans last month. We're getting far too many major storms, and I keep wondering if it is a leftover from the "El Nino/La Nina" phenomenon of half a decade ago.
Sitka, like Vernon Dent and Bud Jamison, became one of the recognizable Stooge company (like Margaret Dumont with the Marx Brothers, and like Jimmy Finleyson and Charles Hall with Laurel and Hardy). I heard Sitka in an interview a number of years ago, and he said that for many years, when invited to weddings, he was asked to repeat a line from one of his outings with the Stooges where he was a minister who was trying to marry Shemp to some woman (at least three others pop up claiming precedents). The line was "Now gather together you lovebirds!" or something like that, but with that wonderful crackle in his voice, you can just him saying it.
De Rita's substitute was chosen, but I don't recall his name. He was younger than Curley Joe was.
One last thing about Emil Sitka. In a yearbook from my highschool that was published in 1972 (the year after my graduation) there was a set of stills and photos of television and movie performers sprinkled about the text. One was of the later Stooges with De Rita, and Sitka. Sitka has a "mad scientist" glint in his eyes and a weird smile, and he is holding a small model of a device he's invented which is a combination of a tank, a submarine, and a helicopter. The capture, I recall, read, "Moe, Larry, and Curley, and Professor Furd"!
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 377
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 6:04 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
It's hard to say why we're having so many hurricanes. Since we've got another big one headed for Galveston, I guess I'd better get my cars fueled.
I think I'll try to find out who was going to be De Rita's replacement. He's probably the closest thing we now have to a living Stooge, that is, if he's still with us.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 864
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 8:26 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I will be watching the new "Galveston" storm with interest. I wonder how quickly FEMA will work now that Texas is the state that will be hit? Faster, I would think.
The name of the third guy was nothing remotely memorable (but then, Joe De Rita was hardly a memorable comic either).
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 383
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 1:45 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Yes, I'd expect FEMA to learn from experience but I suppose they'll be criticized anyway. Today, I heard that the toll for the 1900 Galveston storm is up to 12,000 now. It seems to go up about 2000 every week.
I looked on The Three Stooges site last night and it looks like the last person who could be, in any way, shape or form, called a Stooge died last year. It was Mousie Garner who was one of the replacement Stooges that Healey brought in after the originals left him. He also made some appearances with DeRita and another guy as the New Stooges after Moe and Larry were out of the picture.
As for strange weather, one of the most extraordinary would be the so-called Tri-State Tornado that started in Missouri, crossed Illinois and ended up in Indiana. It killed about 700 people and is thought to have been a F5+ twister with winds in excess of 335 mph. There's never been another tornado like it and some think that it may have been some other type of rare weather phenomenon for which we don't have a name; perhaps some kind of compound tornado or some sort of concentrated terrestrial "hurricane". Witnesses said it just looked like a big cloud going along the ground. When it got into Indiana a funnel was seen but that could have spun out of the storm as often happens with hurricanes. In 1925, my grandparents lived about 20 miles from the storm's path and I remember them telling about seeing blankets and clothing in the sky blowing over as it passed. I don't think they even had a radio yet so at the time they didn't know what was going on.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 867
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 10:47 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
All fatality records tend to rise and fall, depending on the situation. The current New Orleans death toll seems to have peaked and was going down from thousands to hundreds, but then they admitted they reached the worst areas finally, and the numbers started to climb up.
I wonder if it will sink down again because of the threat of additional flooding in the wake of Rita.
I have seen the number of losses on the Titanic rise and fall. The British Board of Trade number was 1,490. The "popular" figures were 1,513, 1,517, or 1,522. Then there was 1,600 in some of the newspapers of 1912, and even 1,800. And on top of all this, there are persistant rumors that there were many Belfast workers on the ship, working on installing a second skin during the maiden voyage, who would raise the total to 1,900 or even 2,000 plus. It all depends on the person counting these numbers or their particular theory (a sort of varient on Ripperology and identifying the Ripper - what points in the story will you use as the basis of the identification?).
Whatever brought Mousie Garner to the attention of Ted Healey, he certainly lacked any real staying power with public attention. One would think that a name like "Mousie" would gain attention, but he was as noticeable as a "wee timorous" mousie. Possibly due to his anger at the real Stooges, and his drinking, Healey just grabbed whoever he could to be his new team. They may also have been willing to put up with his mean drunk and his bossy disposition.
That 1925 Special twister is amazing, and must have been frightening to the people stuck in it's path. That description your grandparents gave of the flying debris made me think of Margaret Hamilton on the bicycle in a dream sequence in THE WIZARD OF OZ.
We do have tornados in the Northeast, but they do their biggest damage (so far) in the suburbs or upstate or in the New Jersey hinterlands. The worst wind storm I remember was in the late 1970s. I worked in an apartment house, and the wind was so strong one morning that it was impossible for us to open the front doors of the building due to the wind pressure. It lasted that way for nearly forty-five minutes.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 390
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 6:46 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Yes, Margaret Hamilton was the first wind surfer.
I knew that there were sometimes tornados in the Northeast. They used to say that every state had had one except Rhode Island but I think they had one there a few years ago as well.
We had a warning here a few years ago that there was a tornado in the area. I opened the door to my basement, thinking I'd make the scramble to get down there should I hear the roar of one approaching. It actually passed about a mile south of me but it was close enough that I was hit by a gust from the outer bands. When it went by, it was such a fast WHOOSH I thought to myself that, if it had been a direct hit, I'm not sure I'd have had time to get into my basement.
It doesn't look like Ted Healey's standards were all that high when he was hiring the three replacement Stooges. Until I saw a show on the act a couple of years ago, (It might have been on A&E's Biography.) I'd never heard of any of those three.
One controversy among Stoogephiles is whether, since he was considered the leader of the early Stooges, should Healey be considered a Stooge himself. It's kind of like the question as to whether Tony Sheridan should be considered one of the early Beatles.
Best wishes,
Stan
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 868
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 12:56 am: |
|
Hi Stan,
I don't think of Healey as a stooge, as he himself kept experimenting with the name in his act. He called it Ted Healey and his Stooges, but he also called it Ted Healey and his Racketeers, and several other names. In any case, Healey's part of the act was like a mean tempered Bud Abbott. Abbott was annoyed by Costello in their stage and screen performances, because Costello is supposedly "a baad boy" who is too immature to do anything right, and who gets into everyone's hair. But Abbott usually did protect Costello, or try to help him when in physical danger. With Healey, he would get upset at the dumb comments or actions of the three stooges and slap them or belt them in some way. Given his propensity for drink he probably did not do this very gently.
Given the boot that Howard, Howard, and Fine gave to Healey, I'm not surprised he chose their replacements with poor or low standards. He did not want a repeat of the new stooges booting him out, so if they were non-entities to begin with they would be doubly dependent on his good will.
In the northeast, I was surprised to discover, we have more earthquakes than you would think. New England has considerable seismic activity.
New York City has a fault near it (the "Ramapo" fault) which may give us a major earthquake one day. Hopefully not. But one has to keep reminding oneself that there is no single inch of this planet that is 100% safe from any natural phenomenon or danger. In fact this is true about every inch of the known universe.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 393
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 8:03 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Do you remember any quakes in New York? We've had a few minor ones here. The biggest in my lifetime was a 5.0 about 15 years ago. I was at work at the time when the door started rattling and stuff began falling over on the shelves. The guy who worked next to me was just finishing his lunch and jumped up exclaiming, "What the hell!" He thought it was me horsing around. I said, "Earthquake!", then we just stood there and looked at each other until the floor stopped shaking. They said later that it was in a fault that's in Sourthern Illinois. I think it might be called the Wabash Fault.
I'm about 300 miles from the New Madrid Fault where they had the three quakes in 1811-12 that were in to 8.0 range. If it broke loose like that again, I suppose it would cause some damage here. I'm not sure why there's such a major fault there because we're over 1000 miles from any tectonic plate boundary.
Best wishes,
Stan
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 869
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 2:35 am: |
|
Hi Stan,
I am aware of New Madrid, and the threat of a very costly future quake hitting the area - several cities would feel the effects of a quake.
Chicago may have substantial damage.
New York City is also on a fault line - the Ramapo Fault, which should be watched carefully. It would hit the lower Hudson River, and demolish a large number of buildings and (possibly) bridges.
Personally I never experienced any earthquake, but I am aware of people who were up early in the mornings of regional earthquakes. Most experienced a short shaking lasting under a minute. I have not heard of anyone dying from these minor quakes.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 394
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 8:25 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Speaking of earthquakes in the Northeast, I heard on the news today that they had one in Maine last night.
My paper this morning had a section celebrating 150 years of publication. Some of the stuff in there reminded me of some of our "famous" murder cases.
Our top unsolved crimes would probably be the shooting deaths of railroad President George McNear in 1947 and of gangster Bernie Shelton in 1948. At the time, I lived just a few blocks away from the site of the former and might have heard the shots but I don't remember since I was only 8 months old.
Another case was serial rapist and killer Jerry Thompson who worked in the same department as I did. By the time I started working there in 1964 though, it had been about 15 years since he'd gone to the electric chair. There were still some older fellows working there who remembered him however. They said he used to boast that he was well on schedule to rape a different woman every day for an entire year.
Our sort of Judge Crater is a fellow named Fay Rawley. He and his new green Cadillac disappeared after visiting a girlfriend in Western Illinois in 1953 and have not been seen since. The theory is that he was murdered, put in his car and that together they were buried, 300 feet down, in an old strip mine that was being filled in. For over 25 years they tried to find them by doing test drillings and diggings but never did.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 870
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 11:22 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I hope you can fill me in (my apologies to Fay Rawley for that phrase, which was not meant as a joke) about the railway President and gangster that you mentioned. Also Mr. Thompson. That is the problem when one lives in a country that is a continent in size - there are big mysteries all over the place that are not necessarily known outside the area where they occur.
A close personal friend of mine (and a co-worker) committed a particularly heinous crime (and it was not murder), but it was not revealed until his death. Even now thinking of it saddens me - I still remember the person fondly.
Plenty of disappearance cases in the New York City and state area besides Crater. A century before Crater, the Chancellor of the State of New York, Justice John Lansing, left his hotel in Manhattan one February 1829 night to post a letter to Albany, and was never seen again. The Republican elder statesman, Thurlow Weed, would discuss the incident in his memoirs, and admit that Lansing was murdered by powerful politicians in the state, but that he would not reveal who they were because their immediate family loved ones were still alive (in 1882, the year Weed died) and he just could not see hurting them!
Also, in 1826, William Morgan (who wrote an "expose" on the Masons in up-state New York) was taken out of a prison cell, put into a buckboard by masked men, and driven out of town. He was never seen again (although a body that was found later could have been his).
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 399
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 7:18 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I don't recall reading anything about Weed. As for Judge Lansing, he was mentioned in passing on a TV program I once saw on Crater but they didn't give any details.
George NcNear was the president of the Toledo, Peoria & Western Railroad. He was shot with two deer slugs from a sawn off shotgun in front of his home at Peoria during March of 1947. His company was in the middle of a bitter two year strike and both sides were at the stage of hiring "goon squads". Three strikers had already been killed in violence connected to strikebreaking activities and the Army had been sent in to run the trains. The killer(s) remain unknown.
Regarding Gerald Thompson, I meant to say 25 years before my time in his work place and it was a little before that even. In 1935, he picked up a 19-year-old waitress named Mildred Hallmark who was waiting for a streetcar on a rainy night. She'd just gotten off work from Bishop's Cafeteria and by chance was the daughter of coworker. He raped and killed Mildred then left her body in a ditch but suspicions led to his arrest. When it came to be known that he'd committed perhaps hundreds of rapes, ignorant people thought that, because of his movie star good looks, none of the women had reported them because they didn't mind it all that much. After he was arrested, however, victims explained their silence. After the attack, he would force them at gunpoint to pose for lewd photos and then threaten to show them if they went to police both to embarrass them and to "prove" they were willing participants. He was executed later in the year. I'd heard stories at work about a Dillinger class life threatening endowment but that's probably about as accurate as it was with John. Although it's only known that Thompson murdered once, most agree that he would have killed more if he had not been caught; a nascent serial killer of sorts.
I'll write more later about gangster Bernie Shelton, a well as our own Carol Chessman (Lloyd Miller) and also the bizarre 1881 murder of 13-year-old Johnny Cantwell.
Had you heard about Fay Rawley before?
Beat wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 871
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 8:43 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
Actually I hadn't heard of Fay Rawley before. I was just curious about the other cases, as you gave enough details regarding Rawley's disappearance. Interesting theory. It is like an old story by Arthur Conan Doyle, THE LOST SPECIAL, where a specially hired train carrying two important witnesses into a government scandal probe disappears in the center of the British midlands. It turns out that assassins hired by the government figures involved in the scandal destroy the train and it's passengers by sidetracking it into the tracks to a deserted (and deep) colliery mine shaft.
I was thinking of the best known midwestern mysteries or crimes I know of. Forgetting those connected with Capone and the mobs in Chicago and Detroit, the following come to mind:
Leopold and Loeb,
Mayor Harrison
H.H.Holmes
Johann Hoch
Belle Gunness
Harry Haycraft
Richard Speck
Valerie Percy
D.C. Stephenson and Madge Obertholtzer
The Cleveland Torso Case
Luertgart and his wife
Dr. Cream and the Stotts
There are others but these are the ones that came to me first.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 404
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 6:32 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
This site has been acting up for me again today so I'm going to send this message in sections to avoid wasted typing.
The one name on your list that doesn't ring a bell with me is Harry Haycraft; if you would?
One footnote on Fay Rawley who was a well-to-do local politician: Nine years after he vanished and two years after he was declared legally dead, his son was killed in a mysterious car wreck. Police investigated and found that the automobile's brakes had been tampered with. No arrests were made in that case either. The digging in the old strip mine was more than just a stab in the dark because a witness had reported seeing the old man's car near the mine on the night he disappeared.
Regarding gangster Bernie Shelton, he was the member, with two of his brothers, of a gang that was headquartered in Southern Illinois. The Shelton Gang, whose tentacles reached into Central Illinois, was embroiled in a war with another local gang headed by Charlie Birger. Reportedly, the battles involved tanks and military type armored cars as well as air raids. The military type armored cars look like tanks to some people so that may have been what they were calling tanks. I've only seen pictures of their armored cars. The main air attack was carried out when one gang dropped bombs from an airplane onto a tavern run by their rival.
In Bernie's case, he was walking out of a Peoria tavern in July of 1948 when a gunnman on a wooded hillside opened up with fatal results. The tavern is still in operation. If I remember correctly, police found the sniper's nest as well as a left behind M1 Carbine. One of Shelton's brothers had been gunned down in 1947 and the other would follow in 1950. None of the murders were ever solved.
The Birger gang was one of the suspects. Birger himself was hanged for another crime. There were other theories including one involving a former boyhood friend and gang associate named Charles "Blackie" Harris. The gang wars mostly occurred in Williamson County and there's a book about them entitled, Bloody Williamson: A Chapter in American Lawlessness.
To be continued-Stan
(Message edited by Sreid on September 27, 2005) |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 405
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 7:27 pm: |
|
Page two:
Our Carol Chessman is a man named Lloyd Miller. He was a cab driver at the small town of Canton, Illinois when an eight-year-old girl, named Janice May, was raped and beaten to death with a piece of concrete in November of 1955. Miller called attention to himself because he left town right after the victim was found. He was apprehended several hundred miles away and reportedly first confessed then retracted the admission. For evidence, police had a pair of "bloody" boxer shorts that they said belonged to Miller. He was convicted of the crime and sentenced to death.
Over the next twelve years, his execution date was set ten times and stayed ten times. Some thought the case against him was weak but the little girl's family remained convinced of his guilt and her grandfather said that he'd kill Miller if he was ever released. Eventually Miller's team got the boxer shorts tested and the "blood" turned out to be brown paint. He was released and the murder remains unsolved. I don't know what happened to the death threat. The grandfather might have been dead by the time Miller got out. Mr. Miller wrote a book about the case but I don't know what the title is.
I guess our Ripper era mystery would be the murder of thirteen-year-old Johnny Cantwell in August of 1881. A train crew were traveling south of Peoria when they saw a person tied to the rails and a man standing over them. As they hit the brakes, the man ran into the wooded area next to the tracks and was never seen again. They couldn't stop in time and passed over the victim, young Cantwell. Despite his grave injuries, Johnny was conscious and lived for a few minutes. He told them that he had encountered the stranger while hiking along the tracks and that the man had over powered him and tied him to the rail telling him he'd leave him there until Cantwell told him where he could get some money. Apparently the poor lad didn't provide an answer soon enough. The case was never solved.
Best wishes,
Stan
(Message edited by Sreid on September 27, 2005) |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 872
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 8:57 pm: |
|
Hi Stan
A lot of nice stuff to mull over in the last two messages.
I actually have heard of Birger and "Bloody Williamson" In the early 1930s it was considered the most lawless part of the United States given the number of unsolved murders (it made Capone's Chicago look nearly clean). Birger and his rivals were (I believe) Jewish American gangsters. I once saw a commentary on the case (I think by Colin Wilson) that when Birger was about to be executed (in 1932? I'm not sure), he looked around the scaffold which was out in the open and said, "It really is a beautiful world!" It's as curious a taking off sentence as the ascribed "I'm Jack..." given to Dr. Cream.
I wonder if the tragedy of Johnny Cantwell is the basis of the old melodrama plot twist of tying the heroine (or hero) to a train track. This is the first time I have come across it in real life - although here it is a boy. Poor kid. Can you imagine the agony of living for even a handful of minutes after a locomotive passed over you?
Mr. Miller is a pretty lucky guy - certainly luckier than Chessman. I've never read any of the books Chessman wrote (or allegedly wrote)while on death row. Have you?
Of course sometimes the fellow who is on death row and is released does not actually deserve to be. In the late 1950s there was a case in New Jersey involving an African-American named Edgar Smith (I think that was his name). He was supposed to have raped and murdered a child. William Buckley had been criticized for being too elitist in his National Review, so he decided to look into Smith's case, and managed to find enough weak spots to help Smith win a new trial, and to be found not guilty. It actually would have been more fitting to say "Not proven" like the Scots. A number of years later, arrested on another serious charge, Smith was chatting in the holding cell with other prisoners, and boasted on how he got away with the child's murder. The idiot forgot that one of the "no-no"s of prison life is never to admit or boast of mistreating children - most prisoner don't like pedophiles or child molesters or child killers. Smith was beaten up pretty badly as a result. Unfortunately nobody thought of taking down the names of the prisoners who did it, and giving them a reduction in sentence for their gratuitous public service.
Harry Haycraft murdered his mistress Kitty Ging in 1894 in Minneapolis. It was one of the more colorful attempts at a "perfect" crime in the period. Haycraft, the son of well-to-do parents, had a rather vicious private life few people knew about. He had been dating Kitty, and sleeping with her. She was a milliner. She was stupid enough to lend Harry large sums of money. He decided not to either marry her or pay her back. He used a rather moronic building janitor and his weak-willed brother to lure Kitty out for a ride in the country (supposedly with Harry). She was shot, and buried in the woods, but the body was discovered. That did not bother Harry, as he was attending the theatre that night (watching the musical A TRIP TO CHINATOWN, which introduced "After the Ball was Over"). Fortunately for justice, the detectives noted Kitty's financial affairs were tied up with Harry. They also soon found that his two tools were not as cooperative with him (when their own lives were at stake) as he banked on. Harry was tried, and found guilty, and eventually executed. A pretty good account of the crime is in MURDER OUT YONDER by Stewart
Holbrooke. Holbrooke's account mentions how a whole legend about Haycraft sprung up making him look like a socialite gone wrong. He was well-to-do, but not a member of the social elite. Moreover, although an interesting attempt at a perfect crime, it is also an interesting attempt at a perfect crime by a semi-educated type. Only such a character would have used the two assistants that Haycraft did.
Holbrooke does not mention one aspect of the case (perhaps he thinks it is part of the legend) that says more about Haycraft character. When he knew nothing would save him, he made a confession - and confessed to about six other killings around the United States. Apparently the murders checked out.
Best wishes,
Jeff
|
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 408
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 6:58 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
No, I haven't read any of Chessman's books even though I've seen them at the library.
I was a distant acquaintance of a fellow named A. J. Bannister who became a death row cause celebre before he was executed in Missouri during 1997. He also wrote a book about his appeals as well as stays of execution and I haven't even read his publication.
Buckley getting "burned" by Edgar Smith reminds me of Norman Mailer and Jack Henry Abbott; pretty much the same deal.
I knew that Birger was Jewish but I'm not sure about his entire gang. Too the best of my knowledge, the Shelton brothers were not Jewish. I do remember seeing a photo series of Birger clowning it up on the scaffold.
Thanks for clueing me in on Haycraft. Sounds like he might belong in The Encyclopedia of Serial Killers.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 873
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 11:28 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I did make one mistake - I keep calling him Haycraft. It is Harry Hayward. Sorry for that error.
I believe, to this day, Buckley ignores queries about his views concerning Smith. He does maintain, however, that the issues that led to the successful appeal and retrial of Smith were universally important for our liberties.
In the case (similar as it is) of Mailer and John Henry Abbott, there are points of difference. Buckley has never been arrested for a violent crime. Mailer was - he attacked (he stabbed) his first wife in a fit of anger back in the 1950s. As the lady did not die, Mailer got a minor jail sentence, and after his divorce he never (apparently) showed the same violent streak. But it would have made him more than a little sympathetic to a budding, promising author who was a career criminal. Abbott was a man that Mailer could identify with and sympathize with. If Abbott had only been able to control his impulses better he might be at large now with several books to his credit. But Abbott saw the waiter whom he attacked and killed as threatening to him (he thought the waiter acted like a convict in the prison who was about to kill some other convict). So Mailer's entire well intentioned scheme fell apart.
Best wishes,
Jeff
|
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 410
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 6:11 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I noticed that today was the anniversary of the Tylenol poisonings in 1982. Interesting that, after all of history, someone can still invent a new type of crime. It's also possible for crimes to become extinct, although, the only example I can think of is "Baby Farming".
On TV yesterday, I saw that they're about to release a film about Truman Capote and his investigation of the Clutter murders. That's at least third movie on that case but it sounds interesting.
I saw the front page of a April 1, 1918 newspaper the other day and one thing stood out. At the bottom of the page, they listed the local troops who had died in the war. There were 27; one was KIA, one died from wounds and 25 died of disease! Quite astounding, I thought.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 875
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 9:51 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
Gee, it's been 20 years since the "tylanol poisonings". I didn't think it was that long ago.
I always thought that it was not so original. Other mass poisoning schemes had been tried - like Christina Edmunds in 1871 in Brighton, who poisoned the candy sold in a candy shop, in order to convince a Doctor she had not been responsible for trying to poison his wife. A little boy died as a result of her scheme (she ended up in an insane asylum). This scheme was an extortion scheme. I recall there was an arrest, but I don't know if the alleged poisoner was convicted or not.
The new movie about Truman Capote has gotten very fine reviews, so it is worth viewing. It tends to look at Capote's fascination in the Clutter murders and in one of the two killers - but it suggests he was more concerned about the piece of literature he was writing, and not as concerned with the fates of the two killers.
I'm not surprised about that April 1918 casualty rate. The influenza outbreak was going to occur shortly , so I can believe we would lose more to disease than to wounds. At one point, I think it was in August 1918, more Americans died that month than ever before or since, due to war casualties, the epidemic, and regular mortality rates of each month.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Kevin Braun
Detective Sergeant
Username: Kbraun
Post Number: 137
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 11:02 am: |
|
Hi Jeff and Stan,
Great thread. Let me clear up a few things about the William Buckley/ Edgar Smith affair.
Smith is caucasian not an Afro-American.
Buckley wrote in Esquire, "If a gentleman tries to seduce a lady, and she declines to go along, that is not a provocation which justifies him in killing her other than at the risk of conviction for a premeditated murder. If, however, the lady suggests the gentleman has been cuckolded, that is a provocative statement, and any lethal reply by the gentleman -- in a fit of blind rage -- may be classified as murder in the second degree." In which case, Buckley concluded, "Smith should have received a life sentence for second-degree murder, not the chair."
In 1971 a court Bergen County New Jersey ruled statements Smith made to police were obtained illegally resulting in a mistrial. The Bergen County N.J. district attorney then offered Smith a deal. Plead guilty to second-degree murder and with time served (fourteen years) you'll be eligible for parole. Smith plead guilty and confessed in open court to the gruesome murder. A few weeks later he was released from prison. It is interesting to note that while on death row in Trenton State Prison, Smith (a high school dropout) passed the MENSA test.
In 1976 Smith attacked, kidnapped and stabbed Lefteriya Lisa Ozbun. She escaped and a witness was able to write down the license number of Smith's car. Several weeks later Smith called Buckley from Las Vegas asking for help. Buckley promptly called the FBI and Smith was arrested.
Buckley, on his TV program \I {Firing Line}, did on occasion speak about Edgar Smith. He did admit to errors in judgement. \I {Firing Line's} cross-examiner Jeff Greenfield used to bring up Smith's name when Buckley seemed too sure of himself. Buckley seemed shaken by the incident. He took an unscheduled month long vacation from Firing Line after Smith's 1976 arrest.
Take care,
Kevin
|
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 411
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 1:16 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff and Kevin,
Thanks for that information Kevin. I didn't really know any of the details on that case.
Jeff, yes, Edmunds was an early example of product tampering but it was a ruse to cover up another crime. Stella Nickell did something similar but to try to boost the life insurance settlement from her victim. The Tylenol poisoner's motives were either to extort, hurt the company, kill for thrill or to commit the perfect crime.
A man named James Lewis sent an extortion letter regarding the murders and some people think he was involved. Authorities, however, took the track that he wasn't involved and was just trying to exploit the company's situation with an after-the-fact scheme. As I recall, he was convicted of that, was sent to prison and has since been released, having served out his term.
In 1986, while Lewis was in prison, a woman named Diane Elsroth died from the same type of crime which is also unsolved. Whether it was the original killer or a copycat, no one knows.
One thing you can say about the Tylenol Killer that you can say about no other is that he profoundly changed the world. Before 1982, almost no product had any kind of tamper guard. Now, no matter where you go in the world, almost all do.
Best wishes,
Stan
(Message edited by Sreid on September 30, 2005) |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 876
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 8:41 pm: |
|
Hi Stan and Ken,
Thanks for the corrections Ken regarding Smith. I think my suggesting he was African American is due to his crime being in New Jersey, and the battle to free boxer Reuben "Hurricane" Carter, which was also in New Jersey.
It would be interesting to see now many criminals can pass the Mensa test (although I saw another thread on this website recently where someone dismissed Mensa as allowing the top 2% of the country's mental elite in - I still can't see why that is so degrading to Mensa).
I have to agree that the Tylenol case certainly did effect product packaging as few other events have. But usually after some tragedy that happens. The British Board of Trade rules regarding lifeboat accomodations on passenger liners after the Titanic disaster, for example. Or more recently the heightened anti-terrorism activities by the U.S. and other governments in the wake of 9/11, Madrid, and London tragedies.
I found my copy of MURDER OUT YONDER. Stewart Holbrook's last name has no final "e" at the end. That, coupled with my errors regarding Harry Hayward's last name, and the Smith case, shows that I am slipping a little. I need to be more careful regarding giving details or a book citation.
Contritely - best wishes,
Jeff |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5093
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 11:52 am: |
|
So, after all that......who's J.J. Faulkner? 
Robert |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 416
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 5:33 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff and Robert;
Robert, they didn't find out who was, just that he had a huge portion of Lindbergh kidnapping money.
Jeff, yes, 9/11 and other acts of war have certainly changed the world. I was just referring a single murderer.
I see on IMDb that there's another movie scheduled to come out next year about Capote and the Clutter murders entitled Have You Heard?. It looks as though it has much bigger stars which might help the box office but not necessarily the quality.
When you mentioned someone degrading Mensa for taking the top 2.0 %, where they degrading it because 2.0 % was too elite or not elite enough? I believe I've heard of another organization that only takes something like the top 0.1 %.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 878
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 10:07 pm: |
|
Hi Stan and Robert,
Sorry I can't tell anything about Faulkner to you Robert. Stan filled me in on him in his fourth message on this thread. Apparently he was actually seen, and he did not look like Hauptmann.
I find it interesting that there should now be two major films about Capote and the Clutter Family killings. This happens occasionally that two films on the same subject pop up at the same time. In 1965 two movie biographies about Jean Harlow were produced. There is also a curious variant on this phenomenon, where two contemporary films are produced on similar subjects or plot lines. In 1950 Cary Grant, Jose Ferrer, Signe Hasso, and Gilbert Roland did a film about an American doctor blackmailed into treating an evil Latin American dictator with a brain tumor, and then confronted with counter threats to his wife by revolutionaries should the operation he has to perform succeed. That film was Crisis. But the same year a British film with Douglas Fairbanks Jr., Glynis Johns, and Jack Hawkins called STATE SECRET cropped up where Fairbanks is a British surgeon on vacation in a Balkan state, who is forced to do secret medical treatment on a "Tito" type of dictator, and who must flee when the dictator dies. Both films have their plot differences, but their similarities in the same year are rather odd.
As for the comment about the group Mensa taking the top 2.0%, I am under the impression the comment was made to dismiss Mensa for "watering down" their standards by being too liberal. Beyond that I couldn't say. I'd be curious about the group that only takes the top 0.1%. What would be next - only the top 0.1% who are left handed or blue eyed and blond or who are descended from crewmen from Drake's Golden Hind or what?
I had a bit of luck today. We went shopping to a mall in Bay Terrace in Queens. There is a Barnes & Noble there, and I bought a copy of Paul Begg's JACK THE RIPPER: THE FACTS.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 422
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 02, 2005 - 6:51 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Is that Begg's first Ripper book? I read one with a similar title a while back that I checked out from the library. It was good.
I see that Hurricane Stan is forming off the coast of Mexico. Hope it doesn't besmirch my name.
Last night, I watched a Ritz Brother's movie called The Gorilla. I can't really see why anyone would think they were funny.
The sudden desire to make movies about Capote and the Clutter murders is a little curious. I can understand why there were two Columbus movies in 1992 but not here. On the other hand, we also have two Black Dahlia movies coming out and Zodiac movie in the works after we recently had another released, albeit, a "handycam" cheapie.
I see where The Hunt for the BTK Killer is scheduled to be broadcast on CBS next Sunday. Wonder if "Dennis the Menace" will get any royalties.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 881
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 02, 2005 - 10:57 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I don't think this is Begg's first book. He had about five titles listed. It may be his first Ripper book.
I know of two films already based on the Dahlia. First the television film with Lucie Arnaz and Efrem Zimberlist Jr. (which was quite good). Then that film (I can't recall the name) with Robert Duval as a detective and Robert De Niro as his brother, a priest, involved in a California "Dahlia" mystery in the late 1940s. I forgot the name of it - Charles Durning is a sinister, but rich Roman Catholic businessman who threatens De Niro if his brother doesn't stop the investigation. It was a good movie.
I never saw either of the two 1992 "Columbus" films. I only saw the 1949 film with Fredric March. He was okay (March always gave a good performance), but the script was stilted and slow.
"Dennis the Menace" will probably offer his services as an advisor on the film. Whether to give it more accuracy or to gum it up would be anyone's guess. If they take him up on such an offer they'd get what they'd deserve.
I once saw THE GORILLA, and I agree with your estimation of those three. They have never made me laugh. Yet Danny Kaye and Mel Brooks both thought they were terrific! The best line in that awful film was from Patsy Kelly. The gorilla is named Poe, and he is pummeling and squeezing Kelly who is frightened out of her wits. The trainer of the gorilla says, "Poe hates women." Helplessly, Kelly yells back, "So does Kipling!"
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 428
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 6:05 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
That Robert Duval film, True Confessions, is one of my favorites. The two new movies on the case will find it hard to top in my view. I have both it and the Lucy Arnaz movies on tape and once wrote a review on the latter for CrimeBeat Magazine.
That Kipling line in the Ritz Brothers film brought a slight smile to my face. The funniest actor in the movie is Bela Lugosi. About the only other thing to laugh at was the ratty looking gorilla suit. I'm surprised that Mel Brooks thought that the Ritz Brothers were funny. Danny Kaye never seemed all that funny to me despite his purported genius I.Q.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 883
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 6:24 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
It is just possible that the film version of the Ritz Brothers was not as good as the version on the Catskill Borscht Belt Circuit, or in the nightclubs. That frequently happens that when the restraints of movie productions are not there the comic zaniness takes off. The same thing is true about Martin and Lewis, whose non-film work was remarkably popular (and supposedly better) than their films (I'm not a Martin and Lewis fan, but I have usually found something to laugh at in their movies as opposed to the Ritz Brothers - only Wheeler and Woolsey seem as weak as the Ritz Brothers, except to Leonard Maltin).
Actually I do like Kaye, who sometimes takes apart some cultural icons. In WONDER MAN he does what I thought was a funny take off on Italian opera (I keep thinking it's supposed to be "Simon Boccanegra" but I really can't tell). The spoofs of various movie genres in THE SECRET LIFE OF WALTER MITTY (in his day dreams) is another example. But I'm aware many people never cotton to him.
[I didn't know he had a genius I.Q.]
Bela Lugosi never really had an outstanding comic performance (except when he overacted, or worked with Ed Wood). He actually appeared in two comedies of note: INTERNATIONAL HOUSE, with W.C.Fields, Burns & Allen, and Peggy Hopkins Joyce, and NINOTCHKA with Garbo and Melvin Douglas, but his performances in both were comic only in the frustration his characters reveal at different points. He did have a wonderful comic line in THE BLACK CAT (1934), where he has to pronounce the word "baloney", and does it so seriously it is funny.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 432
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 1:57 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Hope you got the email I sent.
Is Borscht Belt still a major venue? I haven't seen much about it lately.
I don't know how accurate it is but the story about Kaye being a genius came out when he had his TV show in the early 60s. About all I liked about the show was when he portrayed a washed up old actor named "Noel Talent".
About Martin and Lewis, I liked them on TV and in the movies I've seen. The biggest mystery about them is how Martin became the bigger star after they split. I, like most, thought it would be the other way around. It must have been the tendency to underrate the straight man.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 888
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 3:22 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I did get the message - and have sent back a response (which I hope gets through).
The Catskills is a shadow of what it was in it's heyday from the 1920s to 1960s. I don't know much about whether or not the Borscht belt is much more than a handful of old beets right now.
I watched Kaye's program back in the 1960s. "Noel Talent" was pretty good, as host of some movie program. In one episode his sponsor made edible clothing. It included an ascot that was a slice of pizza (Kaye took a bite) and elegant cufflinks which were after dinner mints!
Martin fooled everyone, being more than a good singer and straight man. He could be an above-average comic when he wanted (like in the movie THE BELLS ARE RINGING). But Lewis had more creativity of a sort in the comedy area.
Best wishes for the foreseeable future.
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 435
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2005 - 8:38 am: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Sorry, I didn't get your email.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 436
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 7:05 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Yes, "Noel Tallant" was the host of a TV Matinee movie; sort of an "Art Fern" on ludes. I always wondered if it was supposed to be a subtle knock against Noel Coward. The edible attire was a sometime part of the bit, although, I hadn't thought about it lately.
Well, I saw the BTK movie Sunday. Did you? The actor didn't do too bad a job but the program, in my opinion, was lame as I'd expected it to be.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 897
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 8:45 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
Hope your visitors had a good time.
I did not see the BTK film on Sunday. Actually I suppose I should have - it being a three day weekend and all. Instead, I was sort of poking about the internet, occasionally watching the news or some late night programs. I imagine the film was made too early - if it was made after some studies were made of "BTK" perhaps it would have a more meaningful script.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 444
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 7:26 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Yes, the visit went great.
Hope the rains in your area aren't causing you problems.
Regarding BTK, it's amazing how solving a case takes the "thrill" out of it. I think I'd probably have loved a movie about the crimes five years ago.
Although there's little chance of it, I wonder if JTR was ever solved, if many would pay much attention to it anymore. I guess there would always be some who would refuse to accept the conclusion no matter how proven it was. As with Hauptmann, even a conviction doesn't remove his case from a lot of listings for unsolved crimes.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 899
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 10:33 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
It seems that this lousy weather is lasting until Saturday (at least). It is very depressing - non-stop rain. Last weekend (including Columbus Day) was like a dose of cabin fever here.
The Ripper Case (if solved in 1888 or 1889) would have been remembered for the ferocity of the attacks on the victims, but it would have lost it's main attractions (it being unsolved) because the solution would have been closing the door to any real desire to study the case. It's like the wartime murders of Frederick Gordon Cummings. It's recalled but there has been no in depth study (that I have heard of) of the London Black-out Murders.
Of course, if the killer had something unique about him (like Cream or Deeming or Chapman or Samuel Dougal or Dr. Crippen) there might be some interest in the rest of his career. But what if it was someone like Kosminski or Ostrog? Who really wants to read about a man who ate garbage from the street?
A bit snobbish, perhaps, but it's true none-the-less.
Hauptmann's conviction was probably correct, but too many holes and gaps remain in the whole case for it to ever to lose interest. And the fact the victim was the baby son of American's leading hero of that age only maintains the interest.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 450
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 7:18 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Hope your weather is clearing up. We're about 10" below normal here for the last 6 months. I don't mind that because I only have to mow my yard about once a month now.
I agree, that had the Ripper case been solved, it would only have been of historical interest in the study of serial killers; something like Kurten or the Benders are now. JTR was most likely some no account like Rader or Ridgeway.
Cummins has always interested me to some degree because of the rapid onset and frequency of his attacks. I wonder what set him off all of a sudden. By most definitions, he was a spree killer rather than a serial. That is, unless he was guilty of the two earlier murders that some have tried to add to his tally.
I suspect the main intrigue with Hauptmann, in addition to the fame of the victim, is the feeling that he must not have acted alone. In that sense, a portion of the case would still be unsolved.
Best wishes,
Stan
(Message edited by Sreid on October 14, 2005) |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 900
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 12:02 am: |
|
Hi Stan,
There is still a major mystery regarding the Benders - what happened to them? Were they massacred? I must add that years ago I did some research on the case because of an unexpected piece of information that opened up another side to that case. It was rather curious and led to a suggestion as to the fate of that family.
I think that the most likely Ripper candidate is a local figure - not a toff or celebrity or even a celebrity killer executed later on. But the chances of zeroing in on that candidate are immensely small. It can be one of the candidates we know of from Whitechapel, but it is more likely a total unknown.
What still gets me about the Cummins Case is the lack of official interest in it in the NBT series. They have a volume on the August Sangret "Wigwam" murder, and an earlier one about the bloody I.R.A. bombing in Coventrey (by Peter Barnes), and one on Lord Haw Haw, but this case is ignored. But it's closest equivelent from World War I, the Voisin "Blodie Belgium" case of 1917, also failed to merit it's own volume.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 451
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 6:35 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Yes, "The Bloody Benders" are one of those penumbral serial killing cases (like Kiss, Gunness, John Williams and Eugene Butler) where the crimes are considered solved even though there was never a conviction. I wrote about 250 words on the case for AMW Magazine when I listed them, as a group, as one of the ten most wanted for 1800-1879. In that article, I did mention the assertion that the posse caught up to them and exacted a little extra-legal justice. If that's what really happened, the band did a heck of a good job keeping their mouths shut for the rest of their lives.
The other day I saw that there's a sequel to the "Untouchables" movie in the works. I guess it would be too much to ever expect a film about Eliot Ness' attempt to capture The Cleveland Torso Slayer. Back some years ago, they made a TV movie staring Robert Stack as Eliot Ness trying to settle some old scores in 1947. As I recall, that was the year he ran for mayor of Cleveland but the production made no mention of that.
I have both Steven Nickel's and James Badel's books on the case. A few years back, I also read The Butcher's Dozen from the library. The case has intrigued me ever since I first heard of it some 30 years ago.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 905
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 9:04 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
The Benders are interesting candidates for serial murder, as it is not a single or pair working together but a quartet, who commit their crimes at a convenient location (an isolated saloon/inn on the prairie) where the disposal of the corpses is fairly easy. It is only the murder of Dr. York, a fairly prominent person, that upsets the scheme.
Eliot Ness was supposed to be (except for the big case - the Torso Killer) a very effective police commissioner (I know - public safety commissioner). But he should have run earlier than 1947. His reputation after the Torso Case was weaker. It wasn't until his memoirs were posthumously published that his reputation was repaired, but it may have been inflated by the book's claims and by the television series. Rather ironic travelling for a man's reputation.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 457
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 5:39 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
True, the Benders were one of those rare two parent serial killer families. The only other ones I can think of are the McCrarys and Sawney Beane's bunch, which at least started out as a "two" parent family.
Yes, Eliot Ness has been accused of self-aggrandizement in his book. As I recall, he briefly mentioned the Torso Case in that publication and made a claim to have solved it. That sort of reminds me of Anderson's assertions regarding JTR. I guess old cops hate to have an unresolved case on their record so much that they'll claim a solution even if they have to make one up.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 910
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 7:24 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I'm not too sure about the McCrary Family, so try to fill me in. The Beane Family my be more legend than fact - it is from Scotland's Middle Ages, and has not been conclusively documented.
The Scottish Criminologist William Roughead wrote an essay about them, and ended saying that he felt like Betsy Prig in MARTIN CHUZZLEWIT, who gets sick of Saray Gamp's friend "Mrs. 'Arris", whom nobody but Gamp ever sees. "There ain't no sich person!" she yells, and Roughead agrees with her about Sawney.
Sawney is also supposed to be a basis for Sweeney Todd.
Ness (from what I understand) was closing in on a local doctor as a suspect, when the doctor checked himself into an asylum as a mental patient. This (supposedly) made Ness drop further investigation. Also, the doctor-suspect checked himself out of the asylum within a year.
He moved to California (and it was suggested he might have been responsible of the Black Dahlia Case). I don't know how real this story is.
But then, I don't know how real Anderson's assertions are either.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 463
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 6:40 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
As with Kiss, I've also had some doubts about the Beane Clan due to a lack of dates. I would think though that if one was going to make up a story you could just as easily make up dates as well. I have also heard that Sweeney was based on Sawney. In addition, I've also seen on a web site and in a magazine article that he was based on a chap named Oseeny Toddf.
The McCrarys were a band of five made up of the parents, a son, a daughter and her husband. They were suspected of committing 22 kidnap murders across the southern U.S. in 1971 and 1972. I'm not sure what the breakdown was but I believe they all wound up in prison as a result. I do know that the patriarch hung himself in jail.
I think Ness tried to put Dr. Francis Sweeney in the frame for the Torso Murders but I don't see any real evidence against him. Unsolved Mysteries did a second presentation on the Torso Case and made the case about Sweeney and the possible connection between those murders and the Black Dahlia slaying. They inteviewed a man whose name was Lawrence Sherb or something like that and he was promoting the idea. I'm not sure if he was writing a book or not. I would tend to think the cases weren't connected because all the Torso victims were beheaded and Short was not.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 913
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 8:38 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
It was the episode of Unsolved Mysteries that was the basis for my comment about a proposed link of the Torso killer with the Dahlia Killer.
I miss that show - after Robert Stack died they never replaced him. Unfortunately, for all the good it accomplished in some of the modern cases it dramatized, it pushed a lot of questionable stuff too. It did an episode about Booth not getting killed in 1865. If it were on today, no doubt it would have Dr. Neff and Mr. Guttridge on it presenting their "facts" about the widespread conspiracy (which I started as a seperate thread in this section).
I have seen Oseeny Toddf's name on the internet. It looks like an attempt to make the name "Sweeney Todd" into an anagram or code word.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 466
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 7:35 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
The Torso/Black Dahlia connection goes all the way back to Cleveland Detective Peter Merylo in 1947. He was the sort of Abberline of the case.
I like The History Channel right now but Unsolved Mysteries is my favorite TV show of all time. After they moved the program to The Lifetime Channel, they did produce a few new shows but that was back when Stack was still alive. At least we still have the reruns on that network now. I still hold out hope that it might be revived, if not there, perhaps on something like Court TV. Almost all of the segments interested me although the ghost story stuff was mostly just sit through time to me.
If I remember correctly, that episode about Booth was one of their later productions. I knew that some of the stories they depicted were a little misleading but that segment interested me some because I hadn't heard those claims before.
Best wishes,
Stan
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 916
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 9:40 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I have been trying to get a thread underway regarding the Lincoln Assassination Conspiracy/Conspiracies theory/theories. I just finished reading a new book about the Assassination by a Dr. Ray Neff and Leonard Guttridge, which I purchased in the hopes that Dr. Tumblety would be mentioned (he wasn't). The research was disappointing, because it is so questionable (Dr. Neff has deposited a huge archive of documents of spurious value at a midwestern college, and it has been highly criticized by James McPherson and other Civil War experts). I happen to like Guttridge's other books (I've read three of them), but this was the first time he wrote about the Civil War.
They still show unsolved mysteries on Lifetime. With about a decade of shows there were many episodes I never saw. But it is a shame that it just could not continue with another host.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 468
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 6:19 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I saw that Lincoln Assassination thread you started but, because I don't feel thoroughly schooled on the topic, I'm not sure I have anything of value to add right now. If I have any epiphanies, I'll be glad to join in.
It's a surprise that Tumblety wasn't mentioned in that book you have. The first time I ever heard of him was on a JTR TV program and they, right away, made mention of some affilate who was speculated to perhaps have some involvement in the assassination. I've forgotten the guy's name.
In a footnote to Torso/Dahlia, I had a discussion on here with a person who was claiming that The Mad Butcher was Jack Wilson; the man who John Gilmore asserted killed Elizabeth Short in his book Severed. Wilson was in Cleveland at the time of the murders but he was, at most, thirteen-years-old when "victim zero" washed up on the shores of Lake Erie in mid-1934, so that rules him out in my mind. I have Gilmore's book and he does tell of Wilson's interest in the case when he was a teenager but takes it no further than that.
Best wishes,
Stan
(Message edited by Sreid on October 19, 2005) |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 917
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 8:34 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
Of course, if there is some "sequel" volume by Neff and Guttridge, they may bring in Tumblety as further new information from their archive. Who knows, they may tie their massive conspiracy to include five victims in Whitechapel twenty three years after Lincoln got shot.
They did get what they claim was further information regarding Captain John Celestina. They feel that he was going to be involved in the kidnapping plot - that his boat would be used to spirit Lincoln to a hiding spot. Celestina's involvement as a suspected conspirator has been known since the 1950s. What it really was is a mystery (as I cannot seem to believe Neff and Guttridge's discoveries).
The Gilmore book is not the one where the author believes that his father was the killer, is it? I haven't read the literature on the Short Case - which, perhaps, I should.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 473
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 6:29 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Unlike you, I think that I might have seen all the episodes of Unsolved Mysteries but I still enjoy watching even the reruns on occasion.
If I remember correctly, there was more than one plot to kidnap Lincoln. I don't really remember the details though. It would seem that kidnapping one of his family members might have been easier and perhaps more effective. Gladly, at least, that didn't happen.
Gilmore's Severed has its detractors but it is the exception in a Black Dahlia book, in that, it doesn't accuse his father of being the killer. If I recall correctly, he does say he met Miss Short once though. There are actually two books where a person claims that their dad was the murderer. In the most recent, Steve Hodel says his father was the perpetrator of the Short and a bunch of other slayings. The other book came out in the early 90s, I believe, and Janice Knowlton asserted that her "daddy" was the killer in that release. All three books do have one thing in common, however, that is, none was written until after the "subject" was dead; no nasty court problems that way.
Best wishes,
Stan
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 919
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 8:50 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
Actually there were several plots against Lincoln, and he admitted someone took a pot shot at him while he was riding alone from the Old Soldier's Home. Given how tall he was, that the marksman just hit his hat seems odd - but then he was riding so his head and torso were bobbing up and down.
As for kidnapping someone else instead of Lincoln, it never seemed to enter the equation. Supposedly the one occasion when Booth and his fellows surprised a carriage (that Lincoln was supposed to be in) the rider was Chief Justice Chase - but Booth did not even consider that the second or third leading figure of the Government was worth kidnapping. He had an idee fixe on Lincoln.
Doesn't it always seem that only after a prominent person (or any person) is fingered for some negative behavior it is when they are dead. Joan Crawford did not become "Mommy Dearest" until after her demise, and Errol Flynn's "Nazi connections" did not appear until he was long gone. So why should the choice of various candidates for Elizabeth Short's destroyer be any different. My guess is that these books are a way of settling a number of psychic wounds and imaginary scores - safely, as you point out.
I may not be able to post tomorrow, or Saturday - two rooms of my apartment are being painted and I am needed to move books furniture, and bric-a-brac. So if I am slow for a few days, I will be back as soon as I can.
One final minor point - I am reading a Signet Classic volume of selections from the Journals of Henry Thoreau. It came as a surprise to me that he read Henry Mayhew's studies of the London poor. He mentions it at one poin in his journal entry for May 28, 1852. Not that he should not have read it, but I was surprised to see he did.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 477
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 1:51 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I'd heard about that Lincoln incident where he was shot through the hat. You'd have thought that should have better been taken as a warning. I wonder if anyone has gone to that area with a metal detector to try to find the bullet. Knowing what kind of gun was used could be a tip.
At present, I have to say that I don't really know all that much about either Thoreau or Mayhew. Were they socialism advocates like Dickens?
I hope your apartment project's a sucess.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 920
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 5:47 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
Thoreau's biggest interests seem to be nature and individualism. He appears to have been well read (he also mentions an incident Darwin described in the work THE VOYAGE OF H.M.S. BEAGLE, as well as Wordsworth, Coleridge, and even the Persian poet Sadi). Mayhew's book may have had a socialistic tinge, but more likely it was just an early example of sociological study (here of the East End of London). And I am not really sure if Dickens thought of himself as a socialist. He was a perceptive critic of the industrial revolution.
I love reading and books - but moving them about reminds me that they are specially designed blocks of wood.
Hope to be writing back by Sunday night.
Best wishes,
Jeff
|
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 485
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 6:28 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Glad you successfully got those modified blocks of wood moved about.
Your right, Dickens' views may look a little socialistic through the eyes of a modern person but there is nothing socialistic about being against exploitative child labor and other such inhumane activities of his time. Any decent person should protest when he sees his fellow man being treated like draft animals.
I started watching Kingdom of Heaven last night and plan to finish tonight. It looks OK so far but I wish it had been the sequel the a film about the First Crusade. It would be nice to see how the Christians conquered Jerusalem before we see how they're thrown out. There was certainly nothing "Christian" about the atrocities they perpetrated once they got in.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 921
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 8:07 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I don't think there will be an even-handed film about the Crusades in our lifetime or in the next century. There has always been a kind of skittishness about the material involved - in films like De Mille's Crusades the atrocities of the Christians against the Arabs and Jews are not mentioned, but the activities of the Moslems are curtailed to - they don't mention the "assassins" (the original ones, connected to the "Old Man in the Mountain"), who were effective against all their foes (even apparently Saladin). Saladin turns out to be that rarity: the worthy foe whose religion is not the same as the Christians. In THE CRUSADES and the later film KING RICHARD AND THE CRUSADES, Saladin actually ends up in a love rivalry with Richard the Lion-Hearted. But the "ugly side" of the wars are kept under raps.
The pogroms in France and Germany (and England) against Jews by people headed to the Crusades never pops up (it is referred to in IVANHOE, which is a kind of sequel to THE CRUSADES or KING RICHARD AND THE CRUSADERS - the Jews in that novel/film are from York, the site of the anti-Jewish massacre in 1190).
Nowadays the anti-Christian acts of Christians are shown, but they won't mention the negative side of the Arabs (the raids for Christian slaves, the treatment of all Jews and Christian "subjects" as second class citizens. I doubt this will change anytime soon. With an ever quick "jump-down-their-throat" approach by Arab and Islamic groups to slights by non-Moslems, they will not hesitate to attack a film that dares show they were not the complete victims that they claim they were.
The closest that Dickens came to a real attack on the leaders of the industrial revolution was in HARD TIMES, where he shows the bogus-self made millionaire/bully Josiah Bounderby. But his attitude to the trade unions that developed is hardly pro-union. George Orwell, in his essay on Dickens, suggests that Dickens view of society was basically a moral view: if people would behave decently than everything would be decent. It probably is close to what Dickens did believe.
Those modified blocks of wood did a number on me - I was quite tired by the time I replaced most of them. I discarded about a dozen books that I had read years ago. The ones I kept I particularly liked.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 490
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 6:58 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
From what I've seen, the Europeans revered Saladin after his death as a noble opponent. It was sort of like the way the Brits handled von Richthofen's remains after they shot him down.
The film, Kingdom of Heaven, was pretty good but, like I said, it should have been the sequel to a movie about how the Christians got control of Jerusalem in the first place. Regarding the First Crusade atrocities, not only were the Jews and Muslims slaughtered in the conquest but also a lot of the resident Christians who got caught in the rampage "by mistake".
At the end of the film, Richard is riding back toward the Holy Land. There were some good battle scenes and it reminded me some of another Christian vs. Muslim film, El Cid. I don't remember the title but there's also supposed to be a pretty good foreign movie about Vlad fighting the Ottomans.
On PBS last night, I saw the first Sherlock Holmes program starring Rupert Everett. He was fine in the role although he'll take some getting used to. The main thing I remember him from is his David Blakely in Dance with a Stranger. (Girls, guns, cars and crime; I have to like that one.)
Since the first clip of Sherlock Holmes was in a film that may have been made as early as 1899, I guess maybe we have three different centuries of Sherlocks now. Before I bought a DVD mystery film packet, I'd never seen how good Arthur Wontner was in the role during the 1930s. I also liked Ian Fleming's Dr. Watson in the Wontner movies. He plays him as more of a "dirty old man" than Bruce or any of the others I've seen did.
Best wishes,
Stan
|
David O'Flaherty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 1072
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 8:01 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I saw Masterpiece Theatre last night too, and really enjoyed it. I also think Everett did a good job playing Holmes--he provided just the right amount of crustiness, didn't he? I think Everett's an underrated actor because of his looks. Ian Hart offers my favorite portrayal of Watson. This is his second go round; he did Hound of the Baskervilles last year, another good production by PBS/BBC.
Mortuary scenes at London Hospital felt like they rang true although I would've liked to have seen the old shed off Montague Street.
(Message edited by oberlin on October 24, 2005) |
David O'Flaherty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 1073
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 8:40 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I will say, though, that I was bitterly disappointed that Holmes and Watson didn't sport a pipe. Not even once. I don't mean Gillette's big old calabash, but a good old briar or clay would have been nice. Several instances of cigarette smoking though and even a mention of Turkish tobacco. But no pipes.
And. . .they didn't put enough fog in! People were actually able to move around London without getting lost.
Dave |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 922
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 9:21 pm: |
|
Hi Stan and Dave,
I'm afraid I missed Mr. Everett's debut as Sherlock. I was on the IMDb board most of last night.
I've never seen Wontner's performances but his photos look like Sidney Paget's illustrations of Holmes in the Strand Magazine. But then, so did Jeremy Brett. From your discription of Ian Fleming's performance as Watson, at least his interest in sex is picked up. After all, in the "Canon" Watson married Mary Morstan, then is mentioned (in "The Adventure of the Blanched Soldier") as having married again in 1902. And William S. Baring - Gould found that Watson married a Constance Adams in San Francisco in an early stage version of what became the western portion of A STUDY IN SCARLET. Yes the Doctor had a healthy sex interest. Unlike Sherlock who just thinks seriously about Mrs. Godfrey Norton (nee Adler).
Actually the most moving moment in the Basil Rathbone series (I think) dealing with Holmes is in SHERLOCK HOLMES AND THE SPIDER WOMAN, when Lestrade (thinking Holmes has died) pockets one of his pipes as a keepsake. Rathbone realizes that Dennis Hoey has done this, and also realizes the reason - so he lets Hoey keep it.
I wonder if the pipe smoking of Holmes is being curtailed due to feelings about the dangers of cancer - just like Holmes' use of cocaine was gradually dropped in the stories by Conan Doyle.
Re: Crusades atrocities - actually two of the crusades were fully against Christians. The 4th one was turned into a pillaging expedition against Constantinople (under the Byzantine Empire and it's Greek Orthodox Christians), and there was the Albigensian "Crusade" in France.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
David O'Flaherty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 1074
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 10:30 pm: |
|
Hi Jeffrey,
Yes, Watson did have a healthy interest in women. They gave him a psychologist fiance in last night's film--an American woman (I've forgotten her name, but she wasn't Constance Adams--maybe a homage?). They actually had Holmes smoking cigarettes (as he occasionally does in the stories) and using drugs plenty. Actually I was wrong, because the opening scene features Holmes smoking a long hash pipe, but that doesn't count. It's too bad, because they could easily have substituted one of the scenes with Holmes looking dreamy after injecting himself by Holmes looking dreamy smoking a pipe of some opulent Oriental tobacco mixture. Ah, well.
Cigarette stubs also played a clue in the mystery. I haven't seen the Spider Woman movie, so thanks for the bit about Lestrade and the pipe. |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 923
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 11:43 am: |
|
Hi Dave,
The film SHERLOCK HOLMES AND THE SPIDER WOMAN (with Gale Sondergaard as the villainess) should be out on DVD or Video - the series of films are too popular to avoid having them out. So you can find it pretty easily. I have to admit though that I have not seen it listed on television recently.
Another one of my favorite Holmes stories was "THE MAN WITH THE TWISTED LIP" which is set in opium dens, although Holmes himself does not take any nor shoot up. Everytime I see a street beggar I wonder about their income after that story.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 491
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 6:02 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff and Dave,
Yes, I was aware of the crusade where they sacked Constantinople. I don't believe that was their original mission though; as I recall, they got sidetracked.
Everett does a good job as Holmes but I'll have to get used to a younger man with a "normal" size nose playing the role. I did miss the pipe as well. It, along with the deerstalker, are the primary Holmes affectations. I noticed that our old friend JtR received mention in the program ('This fellow is no Ripper.'). Is it too much to wish for a remake of Murder by Decree in this series? If so, hopefully with a different ending.
Regarding Holmes' tepid interst in sex, how about a version with a sexy old girl playing Mrs. Hudson? MMmm! I nominate Helen Mirren for that role.
I also have a DVD of the 1933 version of A Study in Scarlet with Reginald Owen and Warburton Gamble as Holmes and Watson. Owen doesn't quite fit the character in my view but the lovely Anna May Wong is in the film so not all is lost. Too bad how her life turned out.
In another medium, I have a couple of episodes of the old Sherlock Holmes radio show from the late 40s with John Stanley as the detective and Alfred Shirley as the doctor. Great thing about "The Theater of the Mind"; you can make the pair look just the way you want them.
Best wishes,
Stan
|
David O'Flaherty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 1076
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 6:21 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff and Stan,
Well, I don't think you'll have to get used to Everett--I think this was a one-off for him. Last night I re-read "The Five Orange Pips" and thought what a strange story it was, since Holmes and Watson don't do a whole lot except follow the case in 221b through the newspapers--Openshaw's killed before they can help him and then his murderers' boat sinks. I think Conan Doyle owed his editor a story. I still like it though, something about sitting inside 221b while a storm rages outside is appealing to me.
The Sherlock Holmes Society of London has compiled a large collection of radio programs on their site. I haven't listened to any of them yet. Rathbone, Bruce, Geilgud, Richardson are all represented.
Cheers,
Dave |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 924
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 9:28 pm: |
|
Hi Stan and Dave,
You are right - the original target of the 4th Crusade was supposed to be the Holy Land - I say supposed to be because the attack on Constantinople was very well coordinated, and I believe the Venetians who financed that Crusade had given secret orders to the leaders of the Crusade. Frankly, I think they knew precisely what they were doing. Venice and Constantinople were trading rivals.
There was another Sherlock Holmes movie (starring John Neville) about the Ripper. A STUDY IN TERROR, which was based on an Ellery Queen pastiche novel about Holmes. It suggests an aristocrat as the murderer. The most interesting thing about the film was Cecil Parker as the Prime Minister (he is made to look like Lord Salisbury, who was the Prime Minister in the film).
As for poor Mrs. Hudson, William Baring-Gould mentioned in a footnote in THE ANNOTATED SHERLOCK HOLMES, that some member of the Baker Street Irregulars pointed out that in the first Holmes' short story, "A Scandal in Bohemia" the landlady at 221 B is Mrs. Turner. As the first name of the landlady is Martha, the Baker Street Irregulars' member suggested this was the predecessor, Mrs. Martha Turner. And as "A Scandal in Bohemia" occurs in 1888, this was the first victim of Jack the Ripper.
I saw Reginald Owen's turn as Holmes in A STUDY IN SCARLET. The villain was Alan Dinehart, as "Jasper Merridew" (a name based partially on a referrence to a villain in an untold Holmes adventure named Merridew. Anna May Wong was one of Dinehart's gang. It was moderately entertaining. Alan Mowbray was Inspector Lestrade.
"The Adventure of the Five Orange Pips" is rather interesting to me for several reasons.
The loss of the "Lone Star", the boat that the villains flee on, has some comparable relationship to a mysterious ship disappearance of 1880 of the H.M.S. Atalanta, a training ship that left Bermuda and was never seen again after some storms. One clue to her destruction was a shattered stern post - similar to what Watson reports was seen of the "Lone Star". The fate of John Openshaw also has some interest to me, although the police consider it only an accident.
Among the voices on the radio shows with Geilgud and Richardson was Orson Welles, who portrayed Moriarty. I have a recording of Welles back in the 1930s (his "Mercury Theatre" radio production) in William Gillette's Sherlock Holmes.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 494
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 5:36 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff and Dave,
I know the Doge gave the Crusaders the royal treatment when they stopped off in Venice so perhaps he convinced them to alter their itinerary. After the sacking, it's a wonder Constantinople was able to hang on for 200 more years.
In regard to the Sherlock Holmes radio shows, I have three and all are with Stanley and Shirley as the detective and Watson. Each program starts out with narration by Watson thinking back on some case from the past. I'm not sure where Holmes is unless he is supposed to be dead by now.
Interesting that Mrs. Hudson started out as or replaced Mrs. Martha Turner. I haven't seen it much lately but I remember Martha Tabram's last name being also given as Turner in some of the earlier Ripper accounts.
I have seen the "other" Sherlock vs. JTR movie A Study in Scarlet but it was about 20 years ago. My thought was that it ended with a Gull like solution similar to the other film. Perhaps I'm not quite remembering it correctly though.
Best wishes,
Stan
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 925
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 10:28 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I suppose that the survival of Constantinople for nearly two hundred and fifty years after the sacking was due to the successful ruling of the Empire starting with Justinian. But the decline certainly started at that time. About twelve years ago I went to the Metropolitan Museum of Art and they had an exhibit of art from Venice. They included some horses that are in St. Mark's Square in Venice. The horses originally came from Constantinople but came to Venice after the sacking.
The perpetrator was an aristocrat in the film of A STUDY IN TERROR. Anthony Quayle played a surgeon in the East End (in a clinic) who was a red herring in the plot.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 501
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 5:49 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
There's supposed to be a program(s) about the Crusades on the History Channel starting NO 06. I think it was Terry Jones, of Python fame, who did a sort of tongue-in-cheek history a few years ago
Byzantine art is attractive to me and it's had a profound effect on Christian religious paintings to this day.
Although it was centuries earlier, it was interesting to see how Justinian got the Roman Empire back together for one last hurrah before the final collapse in the west. It was kind of sad to see a once mighty empire reduced to a few, basically, city states before the final defeat in the mid fifteenth century. There was still Moscow, "The Third Rome", though.
I'd like to see a complete list of all the actors who'd played Sherlock Holmes in movies as well as on TV and the radio (also voice in animated productions if any exist). The list for who played him on stage would be too long, although, give William Gillette his due for being the first to play him anywhere; at least that's what I've heard.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 502
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 5:52 pm: |
|
P.S.
Hey, I got a promotion!
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 926
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 8:39 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
Welcome to the ranks of Chief Inspectors. I'm not sure how far I have to go to the next step (Assistant Commissioners?).
Although Justinian and Theodora seem to have had more than a small degree of savvy in empire building and runnin, I think that you have to give a great deal of credit also to their leading general Count Belarius. A friend of mine, who was into military history, said that Belarius was brilliant at losing battles in such a way that the victor was always weaker after the "victory", so that Belarius could continue his advances. I don't know how true that is, but he was the most successful military genius in the Roman Empire after the fall of the western portion of it.
Years ago my father was alive, but he had diabetes, and he lost his eyesight. I used to read to him nightly from a wide variety of books (the Old Testament completely, Jane Austin's Emma, James' The Wings of the Dove, Dickens' Nicholas Nickleby among other titles between 1979 and 1990). I read half of THE DECLINE AND FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE to Dad, including Gibbon's footnotes in Latin (and attempted the ones in Greek - I really did not know Greek so those were not really read). I got to the point the Western Empire fell, and then decided to put it aside (it had taken over a year and a half. I keep planning to read the rest of it one day (to myself of course, not aloud).
I have a "coffee table" book in my closet called "THE FILMS OF SHERLOCK HOLMES" which discusses the major productions and actors (Elie Norwood, Wontner, Rathbone). But it is out of date - it was from the late 1970s, the last major film mentioned is MURDER BY DECREE. I don't recall if it listed all the films ever made with Holmes in it. He appears as a character in some films, but not as the main character. For example, a British comedy, THE BEST HOUSE IN LONDON, had Holmes and Watson as two of the celebrities who over the decades visited a famous brothel (Dickens is another customer). I imagine the most accurate list would be several hundred films in length. By the way, there was a silent movie version with William Gillette.
I saw parts of the Terry Jones production you mentioned. He actually looked at different types of professions in the Middle Ages (monks, knights, merchants, etc.) in each episode. It was actually quite informative.
Again, best wishes (and carry on) Chief Inspector,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 504
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 5:31 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I would suspect that Assistant Commissioner would come with 1000 posts so I don't figure it will be long before you outrank me again. It only took me about half a year to get to 500 posts so I guess I must be a sort of windbag.
It looks like Belarius did most of the hard work and Narses got the reward. I have a World History chart that shows him as a kind of Vice Emperor sitting in Rome.
I've paged through all the volumes of Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire at the library but, unless they come up with a way to extend my life expectancy a hundred years, I doubt that I'll ever read it in full. I'd guess it's something like 2 million words. With just eighteenth century research methods, that Gibbon must have been some workaholic. He must have had a staff of some sort.
When I was in school, I was taught the empire fell because of its decent into decadence. I'm assuming this came from Gibbon. If so, then I'd have to say that his conclusion was mostly wrong and wonder if it was influenced by a social or religious need to trash Rome. There were several reasons the empire fell (sloth, foreign influence etc.) and one was the conversion to Christianity which moderated its ruthless edge. This would be almost an opposite to the decadence theory.
I did see on IMDb that Gillette played Holmes in a silent movie in the 1920s. He must have been quite an old man by then but it's good that we have him on film in his most famous role. I read somewhere that Sherlock Holmes has been portrayed by more actors than any other character ever.
Best wishes,
Stan
(Message edited by Sreid on October 28, 2005) |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 927
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 10:24 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
Narses got the reward because Belarius was too popular. Justinian and Theodora were jealous of his popularity, and did everything to undercut him as a public figure.
You have to remember that before DVDs, CDs, Videos, television, radio, and movies, entertainment was restricted to dances, an occasional play or visit to a theatre, and reading. And the idea of a multiple volume history was a sign of the greatness of the historian. Macauley's HISTORY OF ENGLAND was like seven volumes. Froude wrote a twelve volume history of England in the Tudor to Stuart period. The American George Bancroft did a ten volume history of the American Revolution, and Francis Parkman's full study of the conflict between the British and French in North America was nine volumes. Henry Adams did a study of the administrations of Jefferson and Madision in ten volumes. Gibbon's achievement was part and parcel of this trend.
His theory was that Christianity was the key to the fall of the Roman Empire. He felt it set up a rival organization and heirarchy of power to the weakening empire. And one that offered a degree of greater equality than the regular empire. Of course there were many reasons, but it was the first time that the Christian religion was targeted. But remember, Gibbon wrote in the Age of Reason, when Christianity was suspect.
Actually I can see that Holmes' was the most performed fictional character in the movies. He is the most popular fictional character in the English language in the last century or so.
Besides Gillette's performance in a silent version of his play, John Barrymore also played Holmes in a silent version of the play too. However, I believe that the Barrymore version is seen more frequently.
Best wishes,
Jeff
|
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 508
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 11:24 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Yes, I can see where an empire with two heads, the pope and the emperor, could be dooming itself. After all, two headed animals never survive in the wild.
I wonder where the descent into decadence theory, I kept hearing, came from. The church must have put that out to rebut Gibbon; just guessing.
Sherlock Holmes must have struck a cord. There were other detective stories before, going back to Poe, if not before. The first "modern" detective was Nick Carter, I think, and he beat Holmes by at least a year. He's still around but he sure never caught on like good old Sherlock.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 928
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 8:37 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I remember reading a book (cerca 1965) when I was in Beard Junior High School in Queens. It was in the school library, and it had four or five stories about Nick Carter from the old Dime Novel series of the 1890s. They certainly moved quickly, but the biggest aspect about Carter I remembered was his gifts at disguise - which Holmes also had, but Holmes seemed more gifted regarding actual deductive (or inductive) reasoning. By the way, I did see the conclusion of the Rupert Everett Holmes' film last night. He is very good, although I wonder if Holmes would have gone as far as Everett did about feeling the pair of dancing shoes the killer had as a souvenir.
The Church did not have to put out that "descent into decadence" theory. Anyone who heard of the likes of Caligula, Nero, Domitian, Commodus, and Eliogabalus would have been hard pressed to think of the power of the Roman Emperors and it's corrupting effect. Actually, just by reading Gibbon, it is obvious that the Roman Emperor that got under the skin of the Church was none of these rulers, who were just evil. It was Diocletian, with his persecution of Christians, or Julian "the Apostate", who almost reversed Constantine's conversion of the empire to Christianity. Those were the sort of emperors the Church hated and feared. The evil ones just proved that the material world was not one where God's spirit was triumphant.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 515
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2005 - 5:39 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I knew that The Roman Empire was known for its decadence. What I was questioning was why people were giving that as a reason for the fall. To me, it looks like it was just as decadent during its rise, if not more so.
Like you, I was surprised when I saw Sherlock taunt that killer by fondling those dancing shoes. It seemed a little out of character to me.
Regarding Nick Carter, I have four episodes of that radio show from the 1940s, starring Lon Clark, on CD. He was Nick in all the 17 years the show was on the air. Hopefully, I'll have time to listen to them in the next couple of weeks along with a bunch of other radio detective progams I have on CD.
My newspaper today had a review of, yet another, book coming out about the Shelton Brothers Gang. There were many pictures in the article including one of old Bernie on the slab. During the 1940s, this area was known as a region for wide open gambling and prostitution.
The same paper had news of the exhumation of Mary Jane Reed who, along with her boyfriend, Stanley Skridla, were slain in Northern Illinois during 1948. It was a lover's lane murder and is unsolved to this day. The killing looks exactly like the unsolved Texarkana Phantom murders from 1946. I contacted an intermediary who, in turn, got hold of authorities in charge of both cases but they seemed to have independent theories and weren't too interested. Both crimes were near railroad tracks so I wondered if that had anything to do with it. The Phantom is also called The Moonlight Murderer because of the assertion that he only attacked when the moon was full. I checked the lunar charts and found that to be a total fabrication.
Best wishes,
Stan |
David O'Flaherty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 1086
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2005 - 5:49 pm: |
|
Hi Stan and Jeff,
"Like you, I was surprised when I saw Sherlock taunt that killer by fondling those dancing shoes. It seemed a little out of character to me." Maybe he thought there was some pipe tobacco in there. After all, a slipper is where he kept his own stash 
I just finished reading "The Valley of Fear" for the first time. A shame about Birdy. |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 929
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2005 - 9:34 pm: |
|
Hi Stan and David,
Holmes does taunt his enemies. In "The Adventure of the Empty House" when Col. Moran is arrested, Holmes starts in with "Partings end with lover's meeting.". Moran, upset that his plans failed, keeps repeating "You clevr, clever fiend."
In "The Adventure of the Three Gables" Holmes does some embarrassing taunting of a anglo-african pugilist who is trying to frighten him off the case. A touch of racism in that.
I remember when the film THE TOWN THAT HATED SUNDOWN came out in the late 1970s, and the commercials for it appeared on television. It seemed quite frightening to me, but I never saw it. Did either of you see it? As for the possible connection with the murder of the young couple in Illinois, it sounds promising, but it can be just a coincidence.
Finally on the death of Birdy Edwards in THE VALLEY OF FEAR. As you know, this novel/novella is based on the Molly Maguires in the Pennsylvania. Conan Doyle knew William Pinkerton (of the Detective Agency family), and had heard his story of the Mollies, James McParland, and Jack Kehoe's associates. Recent scholarship has cast some doubt as to the guilt of the Mollies and Kehoe, and McParland has looked far more corrupt and dangerous than he did in 1876 or 1914. But still there is an interesting element in the original story that may relate to the death of Birdy Edwards.
One of Kehoe's associates was named O'Donnell. His cousin from Ireland, who visited him before McParland broke up the Mollies, was Patrick O'Donnell, who in 1883 became known as "The Avenger". O'Donnell was the man who shot and killed James Carey, the chief informer against the "Invincibles" in the Phoenix Park Murders of 1882. Carey had helped plan the murders, and gave the signal for the attack, but saved himself by turning on the others. He was sent by ship (after the trials) to South Africa. O'Donnell claimed it was accidental that he was on the same ship off Natal when he realized who Carey was, and shot him to death. Not quite falling off a ship during a storm off St. Helena (as Birdy died), but then Birdy was killed by an agent of Professor Moriarty - a cleverer criminal. O'Donnell was brought back to London, tried at the Old Bailey (and defended by Sir Charles Russell) and he was convicted and hanged in December 1883.
Best wishes,
Jeff
|
David O'Flaherty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 1087
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2005 - 10:24 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff and Stan,
Thanks for that on the Molly Maguires; that's an interesting bit of history on an area I don't know much about, other than Baring-Gould's note and what you've just written.
You know, I believe I saw The Town That Dreaded Sundown about fifteen years ago. If I'm thinking of the right movie, I didn't care for the docudrama style. The director didn't seem capable of cutting from one scene to another. So what you get is Ben Johnson finishing up at one scene and then, instead of cutting to the next bit of interesting business, there's an extended (and boring) bit of physically driving to the next location. So you're stuck in the car, watching scenery pass by the car and listening to stuff like "Who do you reckon's killing these people?" "Gosh, I don't know." Scene, car, scene, car. . .That's about all I remember of it though, just thinking "why can't you CUT and be a little more selective in your realism?" I believe it had very good reviews though, so maybe I focused on the wrong thing. But that's what I remember about that film. I don't think I finished watching it. I don't like docudrama anyway, with the exception of Blair Witch. So don't go by me; maybe someone else will post that they liked it.
Now, if you really want frightening, there is nothing more blood-curdling than the improv class in Billy Jack! Talk about hating your neighbor. . .I still have nightmares.
Cheers,
Dave
(Message edited by oberlin on October 30, 2005) |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 518
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 6:08 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff and Dave,
I have the 1935 film version of The Valley of Fear starring Wontner as Holmes, Fleming as Watson and Lynn Harding as Moriarty. It's entitled The Triumph of Sherlock Holmes and is very good. In the movie, the miners' secret society is called the "Scowlers" which I assume is from the publication.
When it first came out, I saw The Town That Dreaded Sundown at the theater. I loved the creepy factor and watch it over again on tape once in a while. It's low budget and it shows but I like it none the less.
I wrote a review of the film in the June 1992 issue of CrimeBeat Magazine. In the November 2002 issue of America's Most Wanted News Magazine, I also wrote an account of the crime itself.
In an interesting aside, Andrew Prine is one of the stars in the movie and his girlfriend, Karyn Kupcinet, was the victim in an unsolved 1963 murder. She was a budding starlet and the daughter of Chicago personality Irv Kupcinet. Karyn recently had a small part in the Jerry Lewis film The Ladies Man as well as some TV roles . Some have asserted her slaying was in a way connected to the JFK assassination. The motive being that "she knew something".
Best wishes,
Stan
(Message edited by Sreid on October 31, 2005) |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 930
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 8:14 pm: |
|
Hi Stan and Dave,
You know, in all these years I never saw any of the Billy Jack films. I think there are four of them, and the star wants to do a fifth one. I'm not sure, but doesn't he become a U.S. Senator or candidate for Senator in one?
I recall the murder of Ms Kupcinet because of the prominence of her father. He only died about the last three or four years. But it was one of the two "celebrities' daughters" murders in that period from Chicago. The other was Senator Charles Percy's daughter, which was also unsolved(?).
Ah yes, the odd deaths that are linked to prominent murder cases because there is supposed to be a vast conspiracy and these people knew too much. Ms Kupcinet was killed because she knew too much. So, supposedly, was Dorothy Kilgarden. And if you follow the trail started by other Kennedy conspiracy experts the same thing for twelve other people or so, including Jack Ruby (who I believe had cancer), and some obscure minor hood in New Orleans who supposedly committed suicide. The same trail of strange deaths followed the Lincoln Assassination (Stanton, Preston King, James Lane, Lafayette Baker, Willie Jett, Major Rathbone and Miss Harris). I'm surprised one did not develop out of Whitechapel, unless one counts all the supposed suspects who were dead by 1900 or so.
There was also a similar set of odd deaths in the wake of the Lindbergh Case, and in the wake of even the execution of H.H.Holmes.
Hope everyone had a good Halloween. A little knight just got some candy at my door.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
David O'Flaherty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 1092
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 9:50 pm: |
|
Hi Stan and Jeff,
Stan, if you liked The Town That Dreaded Sundown, I will have to give it another shot. I'll also have to try to find the Valley of Fear movie. Moriarty's not in the novel (although he is a force behind events and is referred to). In the novel, the group is the "Scowrers".
Jeff, you never saw Billy Jack? I've only seen the original and not the others in the series. I understand there was a trial later on for all the crazy stuff Billy Jack did in the first movie (in the honorable cause of fighting racism). Truly, a classic I never get tired of seeing. I can't believe they want to do another one--the movies are real creatures of the early 70s; everything revolves around this very hippy counterculture school run by Billy Jack's girlfriend Jean and their attempts to make Billy Jack a pacifist. Of course, members of the racist town won't allow it. Billy Jack (half-Indian himself) must avenge attacks on Jean and her multi-cultural students. Howard Hesseman's the drama teacher at the school.
I can't imagine Billy Jack in the 21st century. He'd be 70. Surely if Jean and her hippie students couldn't tame Billy Jack's violent nature, old age would have. On the other hand, "Damn your pacifism", one of my favorite lines, might indeed resonate today. I was a kid when the movie came out; of course we all pretended to be Billy Jack, plowing into each other with spectacular chin-kicks.
Incidentally, I believe a graduate from Jean's creativity school went on to run a halfway house for disturbed teens in 1985's Friday the 13th: A New Beginning. "Hello, new arrivals. Come into my office so I can discuss the rules with you. You'll find our house is quite different from the institution you've just come from. Well, here there are no rules--be careful!" A homicidal housemate is given the task of chopping wood--of course he murders another housemate with it in the first 15 minutes of the movie. "Well, I don't know what to say about what's happened," the bemused housemaster says about the incident. "I guess we just better have breakfast." Those scenes made me laugh, because it reminded me of Jean's very laid back school from Billy Jack. Definitely a film to rent (Billy Jack).
One tin soldier rides away,
Dave |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 519
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 6:15 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff and Dave,
My Halloween was fine. I only had 18 Trick-or- treaters. In 1994, I had 108! It seems to go down each year.
As I recall, the critics pretty much panned The Town That Dreaded Sundown. I know Siskel and Ebert trashed it big time. The film has a sort of Unsolved Mysteries TV show style to it.
Irv Kupcinet died less than a year ago, I believe. One of his daughter's neighbors was the chief suspect in her murder, the last I heard.
Yes, Valerie Percy's murder is still unsolved. She was killed when Charles Percy was just a candidate in 1966 but he was elected after that happened. One theory suggests that the murderer was really after her twin sister and killed her by mistake. Police have the slayer's fingerprints but have never been able to match them to anyone.
Regarding those who "died because of the JFK case", Ms. Kupcinet was gone almost a quick as Oswald, not even making it to the end of November 1963. I think Ruby actually claimed that "they" gave him something to give him cancer. Since The Boston Strangler was also upset by the assassination, I'm surprised he's not also been put on the list.
Well, I just finished listening to six episodes of the old Sam Spade radio show. Next, I've got four Boston Blackie programs listen to. When I was kid, I don't remember listening to very many detective shows on the radio but I do rememnber hearing the Gang Busters and Dragnet programs.
Best wishes,
Stan
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 931
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 11:06 pm: |
|
Hi Stan and Dave,
I came upon the scene after the golden age of radio. Aside from one or two records I picked up years ago, I never acquired recordings of the radio detective and mystery stories that are sold on CDs or casettes. This includes the tapes of Sherlock Holmes with Rathbone and Nigel Bruce, etc.
I recall that Boston Blackie was a series of movies with Chester Morris in the late 1930s. But I can't remember seeing any of them.
Sorry about not seeing the Billy Jack films, but the coming attraction of the first one was rather a turn-off to me, so I never cared to watch them. Probably I'd find their absurdities humorous now. But if they bring it up to date, Billy Jack would have a grandson carrying on his political activities.
I did not know that De Salvo (the alleged Boston Strangler) was upset by Kennedy's assassination. But then Charles Peace was an opponent of Disraeli's pro-Ottoman Empire policies of 1878. A criminal can always have a section of his or her personality that is involved in politics.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 520
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 1:09 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I too was turned off by the Billy Jack trailer and never saw it but it was a big hit and my brother liked it. He even convinced my parents to go see it.
Also, I remember seeing the Boston Blackie TV show in the mid 50s starring Kent Taylor. It ran on a sort of double bill with China Smith starring Dan Duryea. Richard Kollmer, who played Boston Blackie on the radio, was married to Dorothy Kilgallen. Oops, another JFK tie-in!
As I recall, De Salvo claimed that he killed Joann Graff on November 23, 1963 because he was upset about the JFK assassination. I believe that was shown in the movie as well. My doubts are strong that DeSalvo didn't kill all of the Boston Strangler victims and may not have killed any of them. I do think he was probably responsible for the death of the woman who died of a heart attack when she saw De Salvo breaking into her residence, as he claimed. That was the one death that he seemed to show some remorse for.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 932
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 11:10 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
To just show how killing goes around the clock around the world, on November 22, 1963 Ian Brady and Myra Hindley tortured and murdered a young boy named John Kilbride. When they read the newspapers later that morning about the assassination at Dallas, Brady (according to Emlyn Williams in BEYOND BELIEF) could not help noting the odd similarity of the first and last initials of his victim and President Kennedy.
I have often tried to note the reactions of killers to the stories of other killers. It is instructive. In Albert Borowitz's THE WOMAN WHO MURDERED BLACK SATIN, about the Mannings' murder of Patrick O'Connor in 1849, he mentions that a few months earlier Frederick Manning was talking to a friend about the murder of the Jermys by James B. Rush. And one of those annoying points I find against Norman Thorne is the newspaper clippings he saved of the killing at the Crumbles by Patrick Mahon. One expects that people reading newspapers or hearing television and radio news will notice homicide cases, and discuss them, and ... definitely be influenced. But the subject has been underwritten, for some reason.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 524
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2005 - 1:49 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Regarding murderers following other murder cases, I remember in the movie 10 Rillington Place they made an issue of Tim Evans following the "Torso Murder Case". I don't know if the incident actually happened or not but the inference seemed to be that, if he was interested in that, he must have killed his family. Myself, I believe that he was probably innocent and that "Christie dun-it". In the film, they don't specify what the case was but I assume it was the killing of Stanley Setty by Brian Douglas Hume.
As another example of "six degrees of separation", the radio program I'm listening to now is Philip Marlowe. The actor who portrays him is Gerald Mohr and he, when he was a reporter for CBS, covered the Morro Castle incident.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 933
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
What I recall is that Hume was in prison at the same time that Evans was in, and he actually met and chatted with Evans from time to time. The story I heard was that Hume later claimed that Evans actually admitted that he killed his wife, but Hume had such a reputation for lying nobody can quite accept his statement about Evans.
I tend to feel Evans was innocent of the kiling - if he was in a house with most other killers (David Raven, for example, or Miles Gifford) it is probable that one could believe two killers could reside side by side, but it was Christie. Only Heath or Haigh would have been in the same class of most likely killer on a site in that period (although their reasons for kiling and selected victims differed from Christie's).
If you accepted the controvertial biography of Errol Flynn by Charles Higham as true or somewhat true, he made the "discovery" that Caryl Chessman (in the 1940s) learned of Flynn's Nazi activities, and planned to expose his treason had he been released from the death house. Again, one wonders about the source material involved here.
Gerald Mohr was originally a radio reporter? I knew of one other fellow who was (his first name was Alex, but I can't recall his last name). When did Mohr become an actor (if you know).
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 528
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, November 04, 2005 - 1:54 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
The only radio reporter named Alex that I can think of is Alex Dreier.
Gerald Mohr started acting on Orson Welles' radio program, according to the booklet that came with those CDs, so that must have been some time around 1939.
Regarding Errol Flynn's reputed Nazi ties, I once saw Mickey Rooney, who knew him, on TV scoffing at the notion. Also, I'd heard that Flynn had a "thing" black women, which doesn't sound like something you'd expect of a Nazi.
I once saw a TV program about the Setty murder where the guy in the punt boat first found the body. Until then, I didn't really know what a punt gun was. Previously, I'd seen 2" Punt on a list of rare shotgun ammunition, at which time I wondered, what the heck is that!?
As for Tim Evans' supposed confession to killing Beryl, I would doubt it as well. It's sort of a moot point anyway because Christie later took responsibility for her killing. The only suspected murder that he refused to admit to was that of little Geraldine Evans.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 934
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 04, 2005 - 10:19 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
It was Alex Dreier. I recall seeing him in a few television shows (and a movie).
I have noticed that Higham's reputation as a scholar is questionable. His book THE FILMS OF ORSON WELLES spread a number of lies about Welles as being unable to complete his films due to some psychological problem. Higham appeared to base much of his evidence on interviews with people who were acquainted with Welles, but he made no effort to double check or analyze the testimony.
His book on Conan Doyle also leaped to many conclusions that just did not bare out what he was saying.
I'm as confused as you are - what is a "punt gun"?
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 529
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, November 05, 2005 - 5:16 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Higham isn't the person who came up with the idea that Welles killed The Black Dahlia, is he?
I recall Alex Dreier's distinctive raspy voice well. He was sort of a pioneer TV anchor man as well, like John Cameron Swayze. I also remember him in The Boston Strangler.
A punt gun is an oversized shotgun, 8-10 feet long and with a bore of about 2 inches, that is mounted on a small boat called a punt. The hunting method is to pole the boat close to a flock of water fowl and dischage the weapon into them as they sit their or are just lifting off; hopefully killing a dozen or so with one blast. It's almost like hunting ducks with a battleship.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 935
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 05, 2005 - 10:01 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
No, Higham did not blame Welles for Elizabeth Short's murder (that apparently whittles down to Welles doing a magic act in some film with Marlene Dietrich where he cut her in half - get it, nudge, nudge - he cut Marlene in half and Elizabeth was cut in half).
The punt, if I'm right, is the boat used on the Thames by university students who are enjoying an afternoon sailing on the river (or is it poling on the river - punts don't have sails). I never realized that it could have a gun set up on it for hunting.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 535
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, November 06, 2005 - 4:47 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
The individual who came up with that Welles killed Short theory sounds like a real master detective.
As far as I know, poling is the main means of propulsion for punts. I'm sure they must also have oars for deep water.
Tonight, that show about the Crusades starts on the History Channel so I'll be checking that out. Also, I see that Atlas Shrugged is going to be a 2007 movie. It could be interesting to see what they do with that.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 938
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 06, 2005 - 7:07 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I never read Ayn Rand completely, but after watching THE FOUNTAINHEAD I looked at the conclusion of the novel - and noted that Ms Rand actually had a better conclusion than the film does regarding the villain Toomey. I never read Atlas Shrugged.
I thought punts were poled. I keep thinking of some 19th Century movies settings with young Oxfordians reading poetry to their girlfriends at picnics - the men wearing straw hats, of course.
As for the "Welles as the Black Dahlia" murderer, I think his anonymity is a safe thing to continue. He may be only mirrored by the genius who concluded that Major Rathbone actually killed Lincoln, not Booth, because Rathbone later married his step sister Miss Harris and murdered her.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 537
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, November 06, 2005 - 8:00 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I haven't read anything by Rand but I remember seeing her on TV back in the 60s. She seemed like a pretty gruff old girl. I think I know the general theme of Atlas Shrugged, of course, as per your example, that doesn't mean the movie would follow that.
Speaking of far-fetched assassination theories, how about the one that claimed that Aristotle Onassis was responsible for the JFK killing. I believe the first time I heard that one was from a well known adult magazine publisher. It might have even been proposed in his magazine; I'm not sure. If it was true, and I don't think it is, it would reduce the slaying to more of a common murder.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 940
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 9:55 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
Oh yes, I see. Ari has JFK bumped off so he has no competition to get Jackie as his trophy wife.
And we can make it better - he countenances the murders of RFK, Malcolm X, and Dr. King to make the U.S. look just politically unstable (lucky for him the Vietnam War causes so many protests, arrests, and riots). He also can be behind the Chappaquiddick incident, to spread the idea (with the murders of JFK and RFK that the Kennedy's are a cursed family.
Only problem I can see is why, if he is willing to take on the U.S. Government by killing it's leader, doesn't he think of poisoning Maria Callas (making her death look like a brief illness, and then marrying Jackie without worrying about ex-his mistress making public scenes.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1669
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 9:21 am: |
|
Hi Stan and Jeff
Mary Pacios is the author who has named Orson Welles as a possible suspect in the Black Dahlia murder in her book, Childhood Shadows: The Hidden Story of the Black Dahlia Murder. Pacios was a researcher for John Gilmore but has developed her own suspect a few slots up the pecking order from the drifter he named in Severed: The True Story of the Black Dahlia Murder. 
Jeff, if you don't know about it, there was an excellent review in the New York Times Book Review this past Sunday of the new book by Doris Kearns Goodwin, Team of Rivals: The Political Genius of Abraham Lincoln. The first chapter is available on the web at http://nytimes.com/books
All the best
Chris
(Message edited by Chrisg on November 08, 2005)
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
http://christophertgeorge.blogspot.com/
|
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 542
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 5:07 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff and Chris,
Actually, Chappaquiddick was a joint operation between The Trilateral Commission and the aliens from Roswell.
I have Gilmore's Dahlia book and, although I've seen it criticized for some inaccuracies, I find his candidate as good as any of the 'daddy did it' suspects not to mention Welles. My favorite suspect is none of the above.
Last night, I noticed that IMDB finally posted that movie I submitted on their site. I'd pretty much given up because it had been about six months since I first sent it to them.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 942
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 6:51 pm: |
|
Hi Chris and Stan,
I always wondered when the Trilateral Commission and Roswell connection would pop up. I'd say the main contacts were Masons, but only to bring us back to this web sites favorite conspiracy group. Question: Was it Jackie Mason or James Mason?
Thanks Chris for the information that Ms Pacios was the person who suggested Mr. Welles was the destroyer of Elizabeth Short. Obviously (she believes) he thought it would be fun to be a murderer. And, no doubt, the man on the grassy knoll must have been Oliver Stone (JFK was an attempt to push away any suspicions).
Actually, given the oddness of that Aristotle Onassis being behind the JFK assassination theory, I should have mentioned the "Bloomfield Concept". This is an example of how my sister Lee could occasionally surprise me (at least years ago) with her weird sense of humor. Lee and I were once somehow talking of 11/22/63 (the anniversary is nearly with us again), and Lee started chuckling. She suggested, sharing my facetious streak, that it would be really deflating if it turned out that the killing of the President (and Robert Kennedy, and their sister Katherine years before) was actually part of an elaborate plan to kill off rival heirs to Joseph Kennedy's estate (sort of like Dennis Price in KIND HEARTS AND CORONETS against the various Alec Guiness characters). It would be rather deflating if greed for money rather than political goals was behind the two assassinations, but I must admit that only Lee could have suggested so prosaic a "solution", even in fun. Then I read about the "Ari wants to get rid of Jack to get Jackie" theory. I was wrong.
Stan, I did see the book review about Lincoln's relationship with his various Cabinet members. I had read Burton J. Hendricks' book LINCOLN AND HIS CABINET years ago, which covers much of the same ground. The new book seems very rewarding. The fun parts are the antics of Seward (before he realizes Lincoln is not going to be a figurehead), Stanton, and that marvelous pompous clown Chase. He is the only man who became Chief Justice as a sop for being unceremoneously canned by his chief (albeit by handing over one resignation too many).
Montgomery Blair (the original Postmaster General) was also an interesting figure. His father was part of Andrew Jackson's "Kitchen Cabinet", and his brother Francis a Union General (Francis also was a witness to a murder once - he saw the sons of Benjamin Nathan running out of their home after Mr. Nathan was found murdered in 1870 - the killer was never found). If you look at photos of Montgomery Blair you may think he looks familiar. His great grandson (or grandson, I'm not sure) was the actor Montgomery Clift.
[Homicide invaded other lives in the Cabinet before and after 1861 - 1865. Chase allowed his ambitious daughter Kate to marry Senator William Sprague of Rhode Island (at the time one of the nation's richest men) Sprague's father Amasa was murdered in 1843, and three Irish immigrants were tried and convicted of the killing (two were hanged). This was the subject of a book, BROTHERLY LOVE by Charles and Tess Hoffman (Amherst, The University of Massachusetts Press, 1993). Edwin Stanton was the defense counsel to Congressman Daniel Sickels in the 1859 murder trial for killing Washington District Attorney Philip Barton Keys who had been committing adultery with Mrs. Sickels. Lincoln was noted for his defense of two brothers in the Armstrong Murder Case in 1842 (the one with the use of an almanac to show the moon was not out that night). I may add, returning to Ms Pacios' theory, Gideon Welles - the Secretary of the Navy - was the great grandfather of Orson Welles.]
Stan, what was the film that IMDB finally posted after six months?
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 548
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 1:49 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I was thinking that the Benjanin Nathan murder had something to do with reconstruction but I believe I have him mixed up with someone else.
That IMDb movie that took 6 months was Leisurely Pedestrians, Open Topped Buses and Hansom Cabs with Trotting Horses from 1889. I also see they have another movie coming out next year about The Hillside Stranglers and two about Albert Fish.
Killing off heirs, as in that Kennedy concept, to concentrate the inheritance doesn't work too well unless you get them before they reproduce but it has been done before. The Duff-Sidney Case is probably the most interesting crime where this assertion has been made. In another angle, if you're the heir of an heir, you get your money faster.
With Orson Welles being fingered in the Short case, I'm surprised that H.G. Wells hasn't been named as a Ripper suspect. Wait, maybe he has!
Best wishes,
Stan
(Message edited by Sreid on November 09, 2005) |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 944
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 11:06 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
There was a film with Macolm Macdonald, Mary Steenburgen, and David Warner about H.G. Wells chasing Jack the Ripper into 20th Century America via his time machine. Warner was the Ripper. I forgot the title, but I think Nicholas Meyers wrote the novel that was the basis for the story.
The Benjamin Nathan Murder is described well in two books: Edmund Pearson's STUDIES IN MURDER (the chapter called "THE 23rd Street Murder") and in Stephen Birmingham's book THE GRANDEES, about the Sephardic Jewish families in America.
Benjamin Nathan was a vice president of the New York Stock Exchange. He was killed in his new townhouse on West 23rd Street off Fifth Avenue, which is still standing. The general theories was that Mr. Nathan was killed by a vicious burglar, or he was killed by his son Washington, who was something of a spendthrift. The most likely burglar suspect was a known burglar named Billy Forrester, who may have made a confession years later.
I just put up a review of 10 RILLINGTON PLACE on the the IMDB Board.
There is a very funny essay by William Roughead in BAD COMPANIONS called "THE GREAT BURDON MYSTERY: A CONUMDRUM OF CRIME". A Mrs. Wooler was poisoned and her husband was charged and prosecuted. But the Judge, Baron Martin, did something unusual. Mr. Wooler was acquitted, and Baron Martin said he thoroughly agreed with the decision, and was disappointed with the performance of the police and authorities as it was obvious to him who did it, and that the person had been sitting in the courtroom throughout the trial! He never elaborated on this comment, and everyone in the courtroom around wondering whom he meant. Roughead writes:
"Who, then, was the object of this judicial vision? It must have been someone within the four walls of that sickroom. If we eliminate the doctors and Mr. Wooler -- both officially pronounced blameless -- there remain the servant, the two lady friends, the clergyman, Mrs. Wooler's sister, and Mr. Wooler's niece and brother. These are the only persons who ever visited the bedchamber, and that -- excepting the servant -- but occasionally. Upon which of these did his Lordship's suspicions rest? Even the reckless imputations of Sergeant Wilkins insinuate nothing against Ann Taylor. She was 27 years of age, she bore an irreproachable character, and she can hardly have possessed the knowledge and skill required for so nice an operation. Did Miss Lanchester slay her friend for the 40 pound legacy? Did Octavius Borrowdale Wooler, the residuary legatee feloniously accelerate his succession?"
I suppose that would illustrate an heir of an heir possibly committing a murder from a distance.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
David O'Flaherty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 1119
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 11:51 pm: |
|
Hi Jeffrey,
The H.G. Wells/Ripper movie you're thinking about is Time After Time, a favorite of mine.
Dave |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 550
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 2:28 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff and Dave,
I enjoyed Time After Time as well. David Warner's middle class Jack the Ripper is little more lucid than I suspect the real guy was though.
Regarding 10 Rillington Place, I believe the movie was actually shot at the address shortly before it was torn down. A while back, I saw on some web site where John Hurt had posted the entire dialog script from the film. It was kind of interesting to read through. I have the film on tape and get it out for a run about once a year.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 945
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 12:40 am: |
|
Hi Dave and Stan,
Dave, thanks for reminding me of the correct title. I keep confusing it with Jack Finney's novel TIME AND AGAIN. I recall that Warner's character was Dr. Lionel Stevenson. I also recall that he insisted he fit more into the 20th Century than in the 19th Century.
From what I recall about 10 RILLINGTON PLACE when it came out in 1970 was that they took the actual door of the house off it's hinges, and showed it around the country where the film was shown. I wonder where the door is now.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2306
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 6:03 am: |
|
Hi All,
The producer of 10 Rillington Place was Leslie Linder, the father of my co-author, Seth.
Seth remembers going to the sinister set as a youngster with his father.
It's one of those films (like Zulu, The Ladykillers, Night To Remember and Dial M For Murder) that I can see over and over again, even though there's no chance of forgetting what happens!
Love,
Caz
X |
David O'Flaherty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 1122
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 8:43 am: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I've read those Jack Finney books--I think he's got a couple. Time and Again features the Dakota, doesn't it, where John Lennon lived and died. If I'm remembering right, the other book features the Titanic. Finney does a great job resurrecting old New York, but my favorite is Caleb Carr's Alienist series (I'm delighted to hear that he's working on a third installment). I think Carr is a great writer.
I'm also a David Warner fan, a fine character actor.
Hi Caz,
I've never seen 10 Rillington Place but thanks for that interesting bit. |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 558
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 5:27 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff et al.
I didn't remember that Warner's Ripper in Time After Time was a doctor but I should have guessed, I suppose. Wonder if they took the Stevenson from Donston or J.K. Stephen.
That door from #10 Rillington would be a great addition to the Yard's Black Museum. Imagine all those who knocked on that door, sealing their doom. Definitely a big creep factor there.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 947
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 7:29 pm: |
|
Hi Caz, Dave and Stan,
I agree with you Caz, the four films you mentioned (Zulu, A Night to Remember, The Ladykillers - I expect you meant the Alec Guinness one, and the Hitchcock Dial M For Murder) are four I can see repeatedly, as well as 10 Rillington Place. But let's be fair - I can watch Now Voyager and Casablanca and Scaramouche again and again too. And also The Lodger with Laird Cregar.
I have not seen the blockbuster 1997 TITANIC, and I still have nightmares from the 1953 TITANIC with Clifton Webb (the final plunge of the liner with the displacement of water got me as a kid - subsequently I learned it did not sink like that, but went down with a slight "gulp" noise). But the 1955 British film was wonderful and pretty accurate (alright, the boat did not split in half like in the 1997 film, but James Cameron was able to know what happened to the ship because of the discoveries of Dr. Robert Ballard in the 1980s).*
*Trivia Question: Who is the only performer to appear in both films A NIGHT TO REMEMBER and TITANIC? How did she do that?
Caz, does Seth ever mention meeting Attenborough or Hurt or can he recall?
By the way Dave, David Warner (who I like too) appeared in three films about the Titanic. There was the 1997 blockbuster, where he was the villain's valet. There was a television film in the 1980s where he played Lawrence Beesley, who survived the wreck and wrote an important account of the sinking. And there was TIME BANDITS, where Warner was Satan, and where there were several scenes dealing with the disaster.
The Titanic is involved in Finney's sequel to TIME AND AGAIN. TIME AND AGAIN (which is a favorite science fiction tale to me) is set in New York City in the 1880s, and does deal in part with a disaster (the burning of a newspaper building), but it does suggest more to me than that - it keeps reminding me how near in human time events still are that happened a century or so ago. Oddly enough I was downtown, near the South Street Seaport in Manhattan, today. I started thinking of "Old Shakespeare" while in the area, but I wasn't looking into any researching on that tragedy.
I've been told about the Caleb Carr mysteries, but I haven't read them as yet. I find my chances of reading fiction (especially recent fiction) growing smaller and smaller - I have too many books to get through. I just picked up a copy of a biography of James Boswell by Peter Martin and Sarah Wise's THE ITALIAN BOY, about the London "resurrectionists" murder case of 1831.
Stan, my guess about the name of Warner's "Ripper" villain in TIME AFTER TIME was based on the two suspects you suggest. The Dr. Lionel portion may be based on Monty Druitt's cousin Dr. Lionel Druitt. Perhaps if someone contacts Nicholas Meyer we could find out.
The comment about the door of #10 Rillington Place and knocking on it reminds me of a passage from Thomas De Quincy's essay "ON MURDER AS ONE OF THE FINE ARTS" (I believe that is the title), where an incident in the murder of the Marr family is described. A servant girl had been sent out, and she had returned to find the doors and windows of the house closed. She knocked, and she heard a movement within the house that suddenly just stopped. A second later she heard heavy breathing on the other side of the door. Some instinct told her something was wrong. She quietly backed away from the door before it could be opened and she could be pulled inside.
She was the only survivor of the Marr household.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
David O'Flaherty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 1124
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 1:18 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff, et al
Yes, that scene of the ship going down in 1953's Titanic also affected me as a youngster. I'm stumped by your trvia question. I've resisted the urge to try to google an answer and will think on it some more (maybe someone else knows). It's been awhile since I've seen A Night To Remember. I've seen Warner as Beesley and then as the Snidley Whiplash-like character in the 97 movie, but have forgotten all about his appearance in Time Bandits (been a long time since I've seen that one). If you haven't read it, Daniel Allen Butler's Unsinkable is a good non-fiction book. Wyn Craig Wyde (I think) also wrote one of the best books when he wrote about the feuding congressional and parliamentary hearings about the disaster in 1912. And then Lord's books are classics.
But if you ever turn back towards fiction, you really ought to try Caleb Carr's books, particularly if you like Finney's description of 1880s New York. Carr's a historian himself (military historian), and anybody mildly in love with New York would get lost in Carr. I'm actually surprised more people don't talk about him around here, since there's a lot of forensic psychiatry in his books and a Ripper-like atmosphere, at least in The Alienist. Angel of Darkness, the sequel and imo an even better book, eventually moves out of the city and into upstate New York, where there's a big murder trial featuring Clarence Darrow (during the book Carr offers some interesting perspectives on the psyche of women). But overall late 1890s New York is a real character, particularly the old Delmonico's restaurant where the investigators have late night dinners as they mull over mysteries. I'm thrilled he's working on another book in the series since I was afraid he'd moved on. I also hear he's running for some sort of office somewhere in NY state. Anyway, you wont' go wrong with Carr. Great stuff if you ever decide to check him out.
You will have to let us know about the Italian Boy book. Those murders seems to be suddenly gaining an audience for some reason; I'm hearing about them an awful lot lately.
Did I say I liked Caleb Carr's books?
You've got me psyched to reread Finney's time travel books again, it's been several years.
Dave
(Message edited by oberlin on November 12, 2005) |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 565
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 6:29 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Yes, that servant girl was lucky to be sent out on a nocturnal errand from the Marr household and smart not open the door when she got back. At least, two escaped the rampage when the killer ravaged the Williamson home, eleven days later. I've read and enjoyed The Maul and the Pear Tree by P.D. James and T.A. Critchley. Too bad P.D. doesn't do more nonfiction.
This is a case with a modern feel to it, whether you believe Williams was guilty or not, in fact, it reminds me a lot of The New Orleans Axeman's attacks. I mentioned De Quincy's essay, On Murder Considered as One of the Fine Arts, when I wrote about the case for the March 2002 issue of America's Most Wanted News Magazine but they edited that sentence out before it went to print. The title must have sounded a little too sinister for them.
I don't know who appeared in both Titanic films but I'll guess that she was on a TV screen in one of the scenes or something like that.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 950
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 8:18 pm: |
|
Hi Stan, Dave, (and Caz somewhere?),
I'll end the suspense. It was a double trick question because the answer is staring you in the face, and the "she" should have been the tip off. Ships are always referred to in the feminine. The actual Titanic appears in both movies. In A NIGHT TO REMEMBER, the director put in a few seconds of the 1912 film showing the actual liner leaving Liverpool. If you can go back to the film, you will see the sequence because the film stock (then above forty years old) was grainier than the rest of the film. In the 1997 TITANIC some footage of the sunken liner was included by Mr. Cameron in some of the underwater shots (not too difficult after Ballard located the wreck). Everyone was commenting on the return of Gloria Stuart to movies in that film (including an "Oscar" nomination), but they did not mention the return after half a century of the lead figure to the movies.
Dave I read Wyn Wade's interesting book when it came out. It certainly restores Senator William Smith to respectability. When I was in college I used to write a daily quote, in chalk, on my roommate's small black board. One day I wrote the immortal Smith question: "What is an iceberg made out of?" (to which Fourth Officer Lowe replied, "Ice!"). My roommate JoSH loved the quote, and kept it up for several weeks. Wade's book, of course, explained that the Senator forced Lowe to admit that there is more than just ice in a berg (rock and dirt for example).
There was more to Smith's investigation than to that of Lord Mersey (whose handling of the Jameson Raid inquiry and the Lusitania inquiry also leave a great deal to be desired).
The only thing about books like Wade's or Lord's is that they invite further studies. The sinking of R.M.S. Titanic is as complex and endless a subject of discussion as ... well as the Ripper and Whitechapel. I have seen web sites on other disasters (Lusitania, Wilhelm Gustloff, Slocum, Eastland), but few have become so overly studied as Titanic has.
It is rather pleasing (in a dark sort of way) to note that the unfortunate journalist William T. Stead connects both the Ripper case and the Titanic sinking by his presence in both situations.
By the way, after I read Lord's second Titanic book (THE NIGHT LIVES ON), I wrote a letter to him - and he replied. It is one of the few autographed letters from authors I have.
Dave, I was told how well done the Caleb Carr books were by a fellow employee at my office (who has since retired). He also urged me to read the two books. As for Finney, I wrote to him when he wrote a book of essays about 19th Century New York, FORGOTTEN NEWS: THE CRIME OF THE CENTURY AND OTHER LOST STORIES. The main essays are about the 1857 murder of Dr. Harvey Burdell in Manhattan (the resulting trial resulted in acquittal of the defendants, so the case is technically unsolved), and the sinking of the steamship "Central America" that same year in a hurricane off North Carolina. The "Central America", within a few years of Finney's book, was located and her huge treasure of gold recovered (which was the subject of huge litigation between the salvagers and several insurance firms). I also wrote to Finney (about the Burdell murder), and - like Lord - he also replied:
"Jack Finney
223 Ricardo Road
Mill Valley California 94941
Feb. 10, 1986
Dear Mr. Bloomfield:
Thank you very much indeed for your most interesting letter and new information on people in the Burdell murder story. I was really very interested in what you told me, and happy to see photos of Smith Ely and of A. Oakey Hall in old age.
I enjoyed your informed speculations, too, on the case. I must say that I think your speculation on Eckel's possible relationship with Ely is pretty thin, but nevertheless an interesting possibility.
I have Murder at Smutty Nose, incidentally, and had read his account of the Burdell case. I thought he wasn't much interested in the case, actually.
Again thanks. Your letter is a most interesting postscript to my book.
Sincerely,
Jack Finney."
My suggestion about Ely and Eckel (a defendant in the case) was that Ely (who was a witness) was also a future mayor of New York. Eckel had some political interests with Tammany, which Ely was connected to - so that I suggested a contact there. As for MURDER AT SMUTTY NOSE, the author of that collection (Edmund Pearson) had written an essay on the Burdell Case.
I've noticed that THE ITALIAN BOY has become somewhat hot on this website - it occurred in 1831, but the poverty and uncertainty of life in the East End play as big a role there as in the Whitechapel Murders. The murder of Carlo Ferrari by Bishop, May, and Williams was the subject of essays by Jonathan Goodman in MURDER IN LOW PLACES and by Jack Smith-Hughes in EIGHT VERDICTS ON VIOLENCE. It also is discussed by Major Arthur Griffith in MYSTERIES OF THE POLICE AND CRIME.
Stan, your mentioning THE MAUL AND THE PEAR TREE (which questions the guilt of John Williams) reminds me that I did write to P.D.James about a minor point (a reference to the existance of the murder weapon some eight years after the crimes) in an essay by William Roughead about the robbery murder of Begbie, a bank messanger, in Edinburgh in 1806, which was never officially solved. She never responded. I also wrote to Mr. Crichley, only to get a reply that he had died.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
David O'Flaherty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 1125
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 8:44 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff and Stan,
Jeff, how great that you had replies from both Walter Lord and Jack Finney. I am definitely going to have to dig out my copies of his books and read them again.
Thanks for the answer to your very interesting trivia question. I would never have guessed. Cameron's footage of the Titanic was his own, I think--he has been down several times and recently entered one of the rooms that his people had recreated for the film. There's a lot of controversy about fooling around with the Titanic, as both you and Stan know.
I was reading IMDB's page on A Night to Remember; according to them, Bernard Fox was also in both filmes (in ANTR he was Fleet; in 1997 he was Archibald Gracie). IMDB also says that several survivors visited the set of ANTR and that Lawrence Beesley tried to slip into the scene when the ship was sinking. They wouldn't let him appear due to union rules--a real shame, I think. It would be nice to have that today.
Yes, Stead, the Titanic, and the Ripper. Everything's linked somehow--six degrees of separation, except in this case there was no separation at all.
Dave |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 567
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 9:57 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff and Dave,
I've seen the more recent Titanic film and, if I remember correctly, Stead, as a character, makes a brief appearance in the movie.
Today, I went to Blockbuster to rent a DVD to watch tomorrow evening and I see that Cronicas is out. I've heard that it's inspired by the case of serial child killer, Pedro Lopez. Unfortunately, all the copies were out so I checked out High Tension, which looked like it could be a little like the creepy murder of "Pixie" Grismore. It's a French film though so it probably isn't based on that crime.
Regarding The Murder at Smutty Nose, the 2002 film, The Weight of Water is about the case but ends with a different view of the crime.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 951
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 9:19 pm: |
|
Hi Dave and Stan,
Actually Stead did show up twice in A NIGHT TO REMEMBER, but his was not a speaking part. The night of the disaster Stead was seen in the lounge (I believe the first class lounge) reading Owen Wister's THE VIRGINIAN. Stead, who had a long white beard (he looks a bit like Monty Wooley) is seen reading while people start milling about after the ship hits the iceberg. Later that night he was seen just looking out at the ocean, awaiting his own demise. The same actor is shown looking out towards the ocean in a second scene.
I didn't know that Bernard Fox was in both versions. I knew he was in TITANIC as Colonel Gracie. [By the way, today as a brief survivor - he died in 1913 - Gracie is best remembered for his book about the Titanic. His first important book, THE TRUTH ABOUT CHICAMAUGA, was useful for many years as an important study of the last major Northern defeat in the Civil War.] I did not recall he played Frederick Fleet in the 1955 movie.
One hopes Cameron will move on to other subject matter - even other shipwrecks (the Lusitania beckons). He seems to have Titanic on the brain, as he has done a second feature - a documentary of the shipwreck - with more footage.
The normal view of the Smutty Nose Murder ("Smutty Nose" is one of three small islands off the cost of Portsmouth, New Hampshire) is that Louis Wagner killed the two women he robbed there in 1873. He was hanged for it. The circumstantial evidence suggests he was guilty. But a theory that the surviving woman on the island killed the other two still reappears from time to time. Is that the view of THE WEIGHT OF WATER?
I found the Walter Lord letter:
"WALTER LORD
116 EAST 68TH STREET
NEW YORK, NY 10021
November 19, 1986
[Then came my address]
Dear Mr. Bloomfield:
Belated thanks for your letter of October 3. I am just not set up for the volume of mail coming in.
As for Peter Padfield's theory that Sir Rufus Isaacs was simply trying to improve his image in the wake of the Marconi scandal, you've already gone to the heart of the matter. THe cased against the CALIFORNIAN is not based on anything that happened in London; it is based on what happened on the North Atlantic that night. The man on the CALIFORNIAN'S bridge saw the rockets, knew they resembled distress signals and suspected that the ship firing them was in trouble, yet the CALIFORNIAN did nothing.
Yes, I know all about "Lucky" Tower and am highly suspicious of the story. He is not included on any list of the TITANIC's crew, including what is called the "payoff" list, which the surviving crewmen had to sign to get their pay. If he existed at all I think he would have at least signed that!
Thanks again for a fine letter.
Sincerely,
Walter Lord"
If you don't recall, Frank "Lucky" Tower was the crewman who supposedly survived the TITANIC, then survived the EMPRESS OF IRELAND (1914), and then survived the LUSITANIA. This story pops up all over the place (including an old edition of RIPLEY'S BELIEVE IT OR NOT? I questioned it's reality in my letter to Lord.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
David O'Flaherty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 1126
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 10:29 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff and Stan,
Jeff, thanks very much for posting your letter from Walter Lord. I'm not surprised that both Finney and Lord found your correspondence worthwhile. Now, I've never heard of Lucky Tower. I have heard of Violet Jessop, who was supposed to have survived the sinkings of both the Titanic and the Britannic.
Besides Jack Thayer (who went into banking but should have been a novelist, he had such a way of turning a phrase), Archibald Gracie is my favorite Titanic passenger (for assisting getting passengers away), yet I've never read his book about the Titanic, or knew that his book about Chickamauga was considered an important work. I believe he entered into a discussion of the Civil War with Isidor Strauss and loaned him a copy, which of course I'm sure he never got back. He wound up shivering alongside Lightoller, leaning left and right all night until the Carpathia came. I like to think I would've gave up my hat to Gracie (someone refused to do so), but of course I'd have been in steerage.
Cheers,
Dave |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 571
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 5:20 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff and Dave,
SPOILER ALERT for The Weight of Water at the end of this text.
I see that Murder in the Heartland is on The Lifetime Channel this Friday afternoon. In my view, this is the best movie about Starkweather in a pretty strong field. Tim Roth is super in the title role. I think I'll record it on DVD-RW/VR so I can A-B edit out the commercials and thus reduce the running time from 4 hours down to about 3.
-------------------------------------------------------------Yes, the notion in the film is that Maren Christiansen was the actual killer at Smutty Nose and that she successfully put Wagner in the frame. It's possible but I tend to think they got it right the first time.--------------------------------------------------
Best wishes,
Stan |
David O'Flaherty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 1127
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 5:56 pm: |
|
Hi Stan and Jeff,
Thanks for the alert about the Starkweather movie. I'll try to tape that, especially as Tim Roth, another great actor, is in it. He turned up one night at a Chicago pub I used to frequent back in the mid-90s, Danny's in Bucktown.
Incidentally, I started rereading The Alienist and noticed that the narrator, fictional crime reporter John Schuyler Moore, mentions that he was in London during the Ripper murders (there is a brief discussion of Forbes Winslow's goofiness). I wonder if Caleb Carr will write that story someday. It would be a golden opportunity for him to include Conan Doyle as a character.
Dave |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 952
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 9:15 pm: |
|
Hi Stan and Dave,
One has to hand it to Col. Gracie. He was a soldier and did his best as such in the rescue of his fellow passengers - in the tradition of the soldiers on H.M.S. Birkenhead. And the experience did reduce his life - he died in 1913. Fortunately he published his book about the Titanic before that.
By the way, one of my favorite pieces of trivia from the dives and discoveries since Ballard found the wreck is the verification of an event that Walter Lord mentions. Major Peuchen, one of the first class passengers, when getting into a lifeboat dropped his billford and it sank into the Atlantic. Seventy odd years later, one of the submergible robots picked up some items from the wreckage field. It found Major Peuchen's wallet!
I tend to think Louis Wagner was guilty too, especially due to the state of his hands - heavily calloused from rowing twenty miles back and forth to and from Smutty Nose from the mainland. There is a suspense film by Fritz Lang starring Lee Bowman, Jane Wyatt, and Louis Hayward called THE HOUSE BY THE RIVER. Set in 19th Century New England it deals with a murderer who is trying to hide his crime (Hayward). In the attempt to get rid of the corpse, Hayward puts it into a row boat and leaves at night, and rows for miles before he finds a place to dump it. That sequence always made me think of Wagner's nocturnal rowing escapade. Nothing else in the film reminds me of the Smutty Nose Case.
I will try to get into Carr's books. They do sound interesting.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2323
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 9:33 am: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Caz, does Seth ever mention meeting Attenborough or Hurt or can he recall?
I'll certainly ask him and let you know.
Love,
Caz
X |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 575
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 6:33 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff and Dave,
My favorite part of the newer Titanic movie was when they reversed the engines down in the propulsion room in an attempt to avoid the iceberg. I wasn't aware of that practice. My previous assumption was that they had some sort of transmission the reverse the screws.
I haven't seen The House by the River but it does sound like a parallel of Smutty Nose. It's hard to go wrong with a Fritz Lang film also.
Do you live in Chicago, Dave? I'm down here in Peoria.
Best wishes,
Stan |
David O'Flaherty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 1130
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 7:29 pm: |
|
Hi Stan and Jeff,
I believe Murdoch ordered a hard turn starboard, then telegraphed an order, "Full Speed Astern", to reverse the engines. Didn't work.
I didn't know you were an Illinois resident; it's a mistake to get me started on Chicago. I lived there for most of the nineties and then spent another couple of years traveling there on business pretty regularly. I did quite a bit of pub loafing while I was there. Not anymore, though, these days I only loaf once in awhile and get up to Chicago even less than that, which is too bad, I miss all my Chicago friends and the places we haunted together--Danny's, a dog-friendly bar, which was mocked up like someone's apartment complete with kitchen; I used to meet the most interesting people there. There was the famous Green Mill Lounge for jazz; Simon's, with their tremendous old bar dating from the 1930s; the tiny Hopleaf bar, with its 200 different kinds of Belgian Beer; Sheffield's and their outdoor garden; Duke of Perth for scotch and fish and chips on Wednesday nights. For awhile I lived on the lakeshore, and I used to pass the site of the St. Valentine's Day Massacre on a weekly basis (it was on the way to a nice little sports pub that provided a Bloody Mary Bar on Sundays). Likewise there is (or was) a great whisky bar, Delialah's, not far from the Biograph on North Lincoln, where Dillinger was shot down. Irish breakfast on Sundays; Webster Street Wine Bar, chatting up Chicago's lovely women and making a fool of myself . . . ah, well. If you ever get up there, check out a film at the Music Box up on Southport. It's a lovely old theatre dating from the 20s, I guess--very ornate, balconies, etc; they've rigged the ceiling to represent a night sky with little clouds moving overhead, and a little moon drifting by. On Saturdays there's an organist playing and they put real butter on their popcorn.
Dave |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 953
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 10:28 pm: |
|
Hi Caz, Stan, and Dave,
I recall Murdoch's last attempt at avoiding the iceberg - but I remember that he apparently had said that such a method would actually not work in times of emergency. In Lord's A NIGHT TO REMEMBER, he mentions that there were rumors that Murdoch committed suicide with a gun before the ship sank. Later, in THE NIGHT LIVES ON, Lord admitted that there were more witnesses to seeing the First Officer shoot himself that it might be true. Perhaps Murdoch killed himself out of a sense of despair that he failed to stop the disaster. Years later Frederick Fleet, the man in the crow's nest who saw the iceberg too late, hanged himself in the 1960s.
The description of Chicago sounds wonderful, but
I have yet to go to Illinois. That may change in the future, if a close relative out there gets married.
Stan, isn't Peoria the town where Jack Benny came from? And I think "Fibber McGee" Jordan also was born there.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 578
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 11:31 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff and Dave,
Yes, "Fibber and Molly" Jordan were both from Peoria as was "Andy" Correll of Amos & Andy. And of course, so were Richard Pryor and Sam Kennison (actually East Peoria). I believe Jack Benny was from Waukegan, IL, North of Chicago.
I haven't been to Chicago since 2000 when my girlfriend at the time and I went up to see Navy Pier and to attend Taste of Chicago. We parted company soon after that and sadly she died of cancer last year but it was good while it lasted.
Best wishes,
Stan |
David O'Flaherty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 1131
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 12:33 am: |
|
Hi guys,
It's been awhile since I've read up on Titanic, but I don't think there was much Murdoch could have done and of course, Ismay and Smith could have lined up and shot themselves as well (although I've never blamed Ismay for getting on that lifeboat). But when you're dealing with disaster on that level, I really do think it's out of any one individual's hands. Technology had outpaced seamanship.
I've been to a few Tastes--quite a layout they have, although I've never been one for the heat and big crowds. Grant Park is so, so crowded for that. Chicago has a lot of smaller neighborhood festivals in the summer (as New York must). Once I found myself turning onto Belmont Avenue; the whole street was closed off and there was Dread Zeppelin playing a free concert (if you don't know them, they're a fun band featuring an Elvis impersonator singing Zeppelin covers, reggae style). It's not everyday you run into Dread Zeppelin. Jeff, if you do go and if you enjoy live theatre, try to check out Steppenwolf, the theatre started by John Malkovich and Gary Sinise among others. They're usually doing something good. I'd recommend the lovely Irish bar cattycorner from the theatre, with their walls decorated with giant portraits of all the great Irish writers, but sadly it closed after many years. I do believe that Steppenwolf is now without a neighborhood bar nearby--a crime; all theatres should have their accompanying pub. One night I saw the actress Martha Plimpton at that bar (the name of which now eludes me), and she laughed at me as I stumbled inside (because of the rain, of course).
Stan, I'm very sorry to hear about your former girlfriend dying, that's terribly unfair.
Dave |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1694
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 11:32 am: |
|
Hi Jeff
You might be interested to know that I also received a letter from the late Walter Lord. I corresponded with him while I was researching my book Terror on the Chesapeake: The War of 1812 on the Bay (2000).
I wrote to Mr. Lord about a point he made in his 1972 book The Dawn's Early Light in which he said that Major General Robert Ross, mortally wounded during the British advance on Baltimore on September 12, 1814, conferred with his next in command, Colonel Arthur Brooke, when Brooke came up and took over command from the dying general just before the Battle of North Point.
This in fact did not happen. Brooke expressly wrote in his diary, now in the Ulster-American Folk Park in Omagh, County Tyrone, Northern Ireland, that "[I] had little time for thought, knowing nothing of the intentions of the General, and without a single person to consult with, I determined on an instant attack."
Mr. Lord acceded to the point that my research had found -- he clearly did not have access to Colonel Brooke's diary during his research. He had based his statement on a contemporary report that was mistaken about the meeting of Ross and Brooke after the commander's wounding.
Mr. Lord also granted me access to his research notes archived at Fort McHenry, and I will say that for the majority of the work he did, he was punctilious about checking and rechecking his facts against numerous available sources. A remarkable writer and researcher who will be missed by those who love history.
All my best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
http://christophertgeorge.blogspot.com/
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 956
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 11:11 pm: |
|
Hi Stan, Dave, and Chris,
Sorry about your loss Stan. I'm glad that you did have your time together with her when you did.
I knew that Benny was from Illinois, but I thought it was Peoria. I think they renamed the high school he attended for him a few years ago.
Smith's end was probably from drowning as the bridge got swamped. The legend was he died saying "Be British My Men" (which is in the film A NIGHT TO REMEMBER), although some thought he died trying to save a baby.
As for Ismay (the only historic person who shares my three initials, though jumbled differently), I feel his actions certainly put pressure on the Captain to keep the ship at full speed in that ice field. I refrain my comment about his entering the lifeboat. Years ago (about 1977) I worked in an apartment house in Manhattan. There was a gentleman there who recalled a few events in his youth. When he mentioned the Titanic, he remembered "a member of the board" (but he said of Cunard, not White Star) got off in a lifeboat. Ismay's escape marked him, even if people do not recall his name.
Interestingly enough, in 1937 MGM made a film, HISTORY IS MADE AT NIGHT, involving an insanely jealous shipping line owner who wrecks his flagship on an iceberg to kill his wife and her lover. The villain is Colin Clive ("Dr. Frankenstein" in the 1932 film). His name is BRUCE Vail, which is an obvious hit at Ismay.
I'll keep your advise about Chicago theater in mind Dave. Thanks.
Interesting to hear that you too corresponded with Walter Lord, Chris. I read THE DAWN'S EARLY LIFE back in the early 1980s. It was a
pretty good read, but so was DAY OF INFAMY, THE GOOD YEARS, and the rest. He never wrote a bad book or a dull one. His book about Midway had an added surprise for me - he had found a photograph (which he published) of the last moments of the sinking U.S.S. Yorktown. It was very moving to see that photo.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 584
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 6:07 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff and Dave,
I'd heard stories about Smith both shooting himself and trying to save the baby. They sounded apocryphal to me but who knows. Both certainly can't be true.
Dave, your right about "The Taste" being hot. I got a pretty good sunburn that day. Had my first taste of jambalaya though.
I started listening to those Nick Carter radio programs today. They're sort of interesting since I haven't really had any exposure to that charcter before in other media such as TV, films or books.
That Starkweather movie, Murder in the Heartland, is on Lifetime tomorrow afternoon so I should get my recorder programed. Starkweather and Fugate seem to be a popular topic now since many are comparing them to David Ludwig, 18, and Kara Borden, 14. Fortunately by comparison, as far as we know, Ludwig did not allegedly kill anyone other than her parents. Times must have changed because the age difference seems to be the big issue now. In 1958, Starkweather was 18 while Fugate was only 13 and little if anything was said about it.
Best wishes,
Stan |
David O'Flaherty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 1135
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 6:55 pm: |
|
Hi Stan and Jeff,
Jambalaya in the hot baking sun? How about a nice banana pepper? Whew!
I agree with you and Jeff that the stories surrounding Captain Smith's last moments are probably not true. The consensus seems to be that he was most likely swept off the bridge. At the end of Unsinkable, there's a very interesting appendix about Captain Smith's state of mind after the collision (he seems to have lost himself once he learned the ship was going down, his orders becoming confused and incoherent).
Incidentally, a few nights ago I came across this site, Encyclopedia Titanica. There are quite a few articles and of course a message board. I didn't spend much time snooping around so I don't know anything about the quality. They also have transcriptions of both the Smith and Mersey inquiries and their encyclopedia seems to be comprehensive.
Jeff, I wholeheartedly agree with you about Ismay's culpability in enticing Smith to put on the speed. I guess the enduring appeal of Titanic for me is to wonder what I would have done in such extraordinary circumstances; of course, you never know until you're there. I guess back in 1912 how one felt about Ismay depended on geography. In England Mersey more or less excused him, if I remember right. He was despised in the States, just loathed, so I'm not surprised he should have still been remembered in 1977 New York, even vaguely. You guys know the story that popped up about him, that he disguised himself as a woman to escape, although he didn't.
Well, there are so many acts of heroism that deserved to be remembered more than Bruce Ismay, like the orchestra . . . or the Countess of Rothe, who manned the tiller of one of the lifeboats. |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 957
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 9:14 pm: |
|
Hi Dave and Stan,
Regarding E.J. Smith, there is a theory that in his last year he was not the quality seaman that he had been. In 1911, while commanding R.M.S. Olympic, he was in a collision with the H.M.S. Hawke (which did not sink, but was damaged - it did get sunk by a U-Boat in World War I). When the Titanic was leaving Liverpool, it nearly got into a collision with the steamship New York, which Smith only prevented at the last moment by turning off the engines. That night to remember was just the last of a string of events - and the worst of them.
The Encyclopedia Titanica is quite a useful website, reminiscent of this one regarding the Ripper. It has more subject divisions because it is an encyclopedia. In particular the biographies of the passengers is quite interesting, but so are the various letters and discussions.
I agree that one prefers to recognize the Countess of Rothe, or Lightoller, or the Strauses, rather than Ismay. While not the evil man pilloried in the U.S., he was certainly short-sighted and self-centered regarding his position and it's responsibilities.
By the way, the gentleman who I knew on Sutton Place was named Arnstein. He was a dapper, elderly man, who was a music arranger who worked with Leonard Bernstein, Aaron Copland, and Samuel Barber. In fact, the Sunday New York Times Arts and Leisure had an article about him in the late 1970s or early 1980s. I saw his obituary in the middle 1980s.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
David O'Flaherty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 1136
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 10:14 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff and Stan,
There's no arguing that Ismay was short sighted and self centered, all right. However, I do believe Mr. Finney was able to show that Titanic sank because of a very far sighted person with the most selfless of intentions. I really do need to reread those books. I've been hungry for them since you mentioned them, Jeff.
Mr. Arnstein sounds like he must have been a wonderful person to speak with--he must have known all sorts of stories of New York and the art world. I'd love to visit New York again; I spent a few days in Brooklyn when I was 19.
Stan, thanks for reminding me about the Lifetime movie tomorrow.
Cheers,
Dave |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2337
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 18, 2005 - 5:14 am: |
|
Hi All,
When I was at Kew, looking through passenger lists (the dates I really wanted were missing), I found it very moving to see and touch Captain E J Smith's signature.
The recent Titanic Exhibition in London was moving too. Being able to touch a huge block of ice, representing the fatal iceberg, and being told the sea that night would have been even colder, gave you some slight appreciation of the extent of the horror.
All exhibition visitors were given boarding passes with details of actual passengers. Hubby and I were among the survivors, although I was first class and he was steerage, so I doubt we would have done an Irish jig together. 
Have a warm, dry weekend all.
Love,
Caz
X
PS I haven't heard back from Seth yet, Jeff. |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 586
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, November 18, 2005 - 12:12 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff, Dave and Caz,
Yes, when I was writing about that Starkweather movie here, I reminded myself that I hadn't formatted a disc for it yet.
The talk here about passengers who were victims of multiple ship disasters and of the rumor that Ismay dressed as a woman to escape reminded me of The Twilight Zone. There was that episode about the guy who, as I recall, dressed as a woman to escape the Titanic and was comdemned to ride the seas in a lifeboat to be repeatedly rescued by doomed ships. In the beginning he is picked up in a Titanic lifeboat by a puzzled Lusitania crew. After that ship sinks, we see him in a Lusitania lifeboat as the Andrea Doria approaches.
Speaking of old liners, during WWII, my dad went overseas and returned on the ship that was originally the German liner Amerika, which was launched in 1906. I believe we got it as reparations for WWI and converted it to a troop ship. The name was changed to The Edmund B. Alexander who was a General during the Mormon problems, I believe.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 958
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 18, 2005 - 11:07 pm: |
|
Hi Dave, Caz, and Stan,
The episode that Stan is recalling is not from the TWILIGHT ZONE, but from Rod Sterling's later, forgotten series, NIGHT GALLERY. It was called LONE SURVIVOR, and appears to have been based on the discovery of an inflatable left floating in the Atlantic after the living survivors had been taken off (four corpses were left on). When it was refound a few days later the inflatable was punctured and sunk.
NIGHT GALLERY was on for about three years in the late 1960s early 1970s. Steling introduced the stories (just like TWILIGHT ZONE).
It was originally a made for television film starring Joan Crawford, Tom Bosley, Roddy MacDowell, Ossie Davis, George Macready, Sam Jaffe, and Richard Kiley. There were three stories, that were each introduced by a different portrait in a deserted art gallery at night, that gave Sterling his moment to introduce the picture. Crawford was a blind millionairess who wants to see the world once before she loses whatever chance to see she still has. She pays for Bosley's eyes, and will have sight for ten hours. Unfortunately, that night there is a black-out. MacDowell is a scheming nephew who kills Macready by leaving the paralyzed man in a position to get pneumonia.
Afterwards he starts noticing that a picture on the wall showing the nearby family crypt is changing , apparently showing the deceased uncle is coming out of the crypt heading for the house.
The third story was about a Nazi in Latin America, who only finds peace looking at a painting of a Bavarian lake. But he has been noticed by Jaffe, a survivor of the death camp who recognizes him as a wanted war criminal. In the end Kiley does get his wish - he gets back into the picture in the gallery.
The series NIGHT GALLERY did have one moment of glory - a sad and sentimental story starring William Windom called "THEY'RE TEARING DOWN TIM RILEY'S BAR." Windom played a salesman who learned his favorite neighborhood watering hole was being levelled. He returns to it, and sees the ghosts of all those he knew and loved there.
The story won an Emmy, and Windom (I believe) got one - I'm not sure of that though.
I'm not sure about this, but I think the monument to the memory of E.J. in his hometown was built by the widow of Robert Falcon Scott, the explorer. Mrs. Scott was a professional sculptor.
The Titanic has appeared in other science fiction besides Jack Finney's novel. Clive Cussler's RAISE THE TITANIC is an example. But on television, in the middle 1960s there was TIME TUNNEL, whose first episode was the sinking of the Titanic (Michael Rennie played the captain, who for some reason was renamed "Malcolm" Smith).
Mr. Arnstein was a short man with an elegant handlebar moustache, and a great deal of dignity.
We talked occasionally about music. I once asked him what was the best novel (that he knew of) about a composer. He said it was JEAN CHRISTOPHE, although he felt it was too long.
There was also a spoof on the Titanic from THE NATIONAL LAMPOON back in the 1970s. It was a brochure for the 1922 maiden voyage of R.M.S. TYRANNIC, which is the Titanic expanded to look like it is as long as Long Island. It is labeled "THE BIGGEST THING IN THE WORLD". It boasts enough ammunition for skeet shooting contests than was used in the entire Crimean War by both sides. It reduces the average passenger to the size of a flea in comparison to it's size. The first class lounge looks like it is big enough for four London clubs. As for steerage, their beds are all bunk beds, but are enormous. Furthermore, the only recreation for steerage is a single deck of cards in a trunk.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 589
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 12:05 am: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I do remember Night Gallery so I must have crossed up the Rod Serling memory.
Then there's also that eerie "real twilight zone occurrence" of the novel that was written about the sinking of the liner Titan by an iceberg a few years before the Titanic disaster even happened.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 959
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 9:49 am: |
|
Hi Stan,
That weird coincidence (which Walter Lord mentions in his preface to A NIGHT TO REMEMBER) was Morgan Robertson's novella FUTILITY, Or, THE LOSS OF THE TITAN. Written in 1898 it gave an uncanny accurate account of the loss of the world's greatest ocean liner on it's maiden voyage, with the rich and famous aboard, after hitting an iceberg on an April night. It was written in 1898. Robertson also wrote a story about how the Japanese launch an attack on the
U.S. Pacific fleet in Hawaii.
There is an examination on the Titanic and premonitions of the disaster (including the
amnazing Robertson) in Martin Gardiner's DOWN IN THE OLD CANOE. Another interesting one was a timely story/editorial by William T. Stead (circa
1893) about antiquated Board of Trade rules about lifeboats, in which he talks of a dream he supposedly had about being on a steamship that is sinking with not enough lifeboat space!
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 593
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 5:48 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I'm surprised some cult hasn't arisen based on Mr. Robertson's writings. Perhaps we should be on the lookout for some of the things he wrote about that haven't happened yet.
He certainly has a better record than these "psychics" who predict 1000 things and then brag about the two of them that happen by accident. Robertson must have either been very lucky or very perceptive.
Of course, to be a true prediction, a rough date has to be provided. Given and infinite amount of time virtually everything will eventually happen.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 960
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 11:22 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I think Gardiner pointed out that the odd similarity to the truth regarding Robertson's book was that there was talk as early as 1895 that super liners of over 600 feet (Titanic was 882 1/2 feet, "Titan" 800 feet) were going to be built in the next decade or so. It was expected that one of the two leading English shipping lines (Cunard or White Star) would do this. Such a luxury liner would be fast, big, and enticing to the socially prominent to use the vessel. In short, it became a self-fulfilling prophecy, and as the Board of Trade rules were not up-dated, it was fairly normal to consider heavy loss of life. And to be fair, there were several shipwrecks (like the loss of La Bourgoyne in 1898) with horrendous death tolls. But the majority of the ships were not lost, so that it was assumed that some would be lost in disasters but most not. Titanic just happened to be humongous in terms of death toll (three times that of La Bourgoyne).
Also it is interesting that Titanic was one of a series of ships with over 1,000 (or close to 1,000) lost from 1904 - 1916:
1904 - The General Slocum - burns in the Harlem River/Long Island Sound. Loss of 1,021.
1912 - Titanic - 1,517 lost after collision with iceberg.
By the way, there was a Japanese ship that sank later in 1912 with the loss of 1,000. I forgot the name of it, but I have yet to see any account of this disaster. But it sank in the far east, it had no socially famous people, and no series of incredibly bad pieces of luck adding up to the tragedy.
1914 - The Empress of Ireland - sinks after a collision in the St. Lawrence River with loss of 1,024 people.
1915 - The Lusitania - sinks after being torpedoed by a German submarine off Old Head of Kinsale with loss of 1,198 people.
- The Eastland - capsizes while tied to a dock in the Chicago River, with the loss of 812 people.
1916 - Battle of Jutland - Queen Mary, Indefatigable, Invincible - all sunk by German gunfire with losses of over 1,000 men each.
- Provence - French troopship going to Greece torpedoed by German submarine. Loss of 3,300 troops.
- Mont Blanc and Imo - collision of a heavily overloaded armaments ship in Hallifax causes biggest manmade explosion before Hiroshima. Over 1,600 killed, and much of city is levelled.
Titanic had more cache than most of these ships (except, perhaps, Lusitania). The military boats that were lost were part of the war effort, so most were considered part of the cost of the war (although so was the Lusitania for that matter). But the sinking of the three battle cruisers at Jutland were due to a major defect in the position of the magazines, so that each blew after one lucky shot (a fate shared twenty five years later by H.M.S. Hood, in it's ill-fated confrontation with Bismarck, where the same defect blew it apart in one salvo).
Lusitania is remembered for it's controversies involving the U.S., Britain, and Germany. The Eastland, sinking with such a death toll while supposedly safe, has an historical society in it's memory. The General Slocum is still vividly recalled in New York (before 9/11 it was the worst disater in the history of the city).
The Empress of Ireland had the "luck" of having Dr. Crippen's Montrose skipper, Captain Kendall, in command, as well as Sir Henry Irving's son Lawrence on board.
The point is that heavy loss of life at sea was something expected. And losses of over 1,000 per ship was always possible. In the entire 19th Century only the Sultana in 1865 had such a heavy death toll (1,700) but it was in a backwater as a war ended and few were really aware of it.
One can also add that some of the multiple ship battles topped 1,000 or approached it. For instance:
1914 - Hogue, Aboukir, Cressy - sunk within two hours by the same German submarine off coast of Holland. The death toll was over 1,400.
- Coronel - England's first naval defeat in over 100 years. H.M.S. Good Hope and H.M.S. Monmouth lost with nearly 990 men off coast of Chile by Von Spee's squadron.
- Falkland Islands - Von Spee's ships (Gneisenau, Scharnhorst, Nuremburg, Leipzig) sunk by Admiral Sturdee's force. Over 1,000 lost.
1915 - Dogger Bank - German battleship Blucher lost with nearly 900 men.
1916 - Total losses at Jutland are 8000 British sailors and marines, and 3500 German sailors.
By 1919 people could assume that tremendous loss of life by ship was very possible. World War II would reinforce this with more military losses (Bismarck, Hood, Yamato, Lancastrian) and civilian losses (Cap Arcona, Wilhelm Gustloff, Goya, General Steuben) with huge multi-thousand casualties list.
Returning to Mr. Robertson's other prediction - about Pearl Harbor - that too was based on some logical conclusions. Japan built up it's position as a world power by beating China in 1894 and Russia in 1904-5 in two wars, and both times she started by sneak attacks on her enemies. As the U.S. was the other major enemy in the area (in 1902 Britain and Japan signed a naval alliance, so technically Japan was not an enemy of Britain), an attack on the U.S. made sense. It would have to be either on the Philippines or on Hawaii. Hawaii, being the chief American military base, was more likely. In 1925 an American miltiary expert wrote a book discussing a likely attack on Hawaii by Japan in the next war. In 1934 an American Admiral carried out a successful "surprise attack" on Pearl Harbor during military manourvers in the Pacific. No doubt the Japanese noted these events.
A Japanese - American confrontation was seen elsewhere too. H.G. Wells novel, THE WAR IN THE AIR, has such a confrontation. And Kaiser Wilhelm toyed with such a confrontation that he labelled "The Yellow Peril" in his diplomatic initiatives before and during World War I.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
David O'Flaherty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 1138
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 5:22 am: |
|
Hi Jeff and Stan,
Another notable disaster was The Eastland, which overturned in the Chicago River in July 1915, killing 844. If you ever talk a stroll along the riverwalk in downtown Chicago, you'll find a quiet plaque just off Michigan Avenue. It's odd to think of a nautical disaster of that magnitude happening so near the bustling Magnificent Mile, but it did.
Besides the story you just mentioned, H.G. Wells also indulged in some further literary prophecy when he wrote "The Land Ironclads" (1903). In his story, Wells predicted the tank.
It was singing a mechanical little ditty to itself, "Tuf-tuf, tuf-tuf, tuf-tuf," and squirting out little jets of steam behind. It had humped itself up, as a limpet does before it crawls; it had fitted its skirt and displayed along the length of it--feet! They were thick, stumpy feet, between knobs and buttons in shape--flat, broad things, reminding one of the feet of elephants or the legs of caterpillars; and then, as the skirt rose higher, the war correspondent, scrutinizing the thing through his glasses again, saw that these feet hung, as it were, on the rims of wheels. His thoughts whirled back to Victoria Street, Westminster, and he saw himself in the piping times of pease, seeking matter for an interview.
"Mr.--Mr. Diplock," he said; "and he called them Pedrails. . . Fancy meeting them here!"
"Mr. Diplock" was Bramah Joseph Diplock, a quarry merchant interested in the transportation of heavy goods over roads. He invented the Pedrail, operated the Fulham Pedrail Company, and was also an author. His father, Dr. Thomas Bramah Diplock, had held the Druitt inquest in 1889.
Cheers,
Dave}
(Message edited by oberlin on November 20, 2005) |
David O'Flaherty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 1139
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 5:06 pm: |
|
Apologies, Jeff. I missed your reference to the Eastland. |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 961
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 6:34 pm: |
|
Hi Dave,
It's okay. I apparently shortchanged the loss of life on the Eastland. By the way, there were more photos of the Slocum and the Eastland taken than of the Titanic, the Lusitania, and the Empress of Ireland (in terms of pictures in the aftermath of the disasters, showing the wrecked ships). The ones of the Eastland show large numbers of people standing on the side of the overturned excursion boat.
There was a study of the Eastland about five years ago, which explained that the 844 dead passengers should be tacked onto the 1,517 of the Titanic. The Eastland's propensity for being top heavy was worsened because (in the wake of the Titanic disaster) the owners added all sorts of heavy improvements that the ship required to be "safer". The exact reason why it turned over that June day in 1915 is still unknown. Reportedly crowds of excursionists saw a boat with a movie camera nearby taking pictures of somebody pretending to be Charlie Chaplin. But they are really not sure.
Regarding odd prophecies, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle wrote a short story called "DANGER!" in 1914, about how England is starved into submission by a small land power from Europe, using submarines. The conclusion (almost as good in it's way as Morgan Robertson's FUTILITY regarding the Titan / Titanic) is when the skipper of the submarine (Captain John Sirius) topedoes the liner Aquitania off the English coast! Talk about the Lusitania disaster being predicted.
I like Wells for the most part (try his novel THE HISTORY OF MR. POLLY), but sometimes his gift for prediction could flag. In his screenplay for THINGS TO COME, he has the future include an "inteligent" innovation - all cities are now (in the 22nd Century) built within caves, and not on the surface of the Earth.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 598
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 7:15 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff and Dave,
We also had people writing about hijackers taking over planes and flying them into buildings as well as those forecasting future world wars with weapons of mass destruction such as poison gas. Also mentioned before their time were "atomic weapons" but they never gave a good explaination of how they would work.
I guess we sort of cherry pick from these works like the psychics do, only reminding us of the "predictions" that turn out. There were probably hundreds of writings about things that never happened and no one paid any attention to them.
Yesterday, I heard somone say that there were 20,000 lives lost in Galveston. That's more than triple what I saw originally.
The loss of about 7,000 lives on the Wilhelm Gustloff makes the Titanic disaster look sort of small.
We had a comparatively minor maritime disaster here just about a half mile from my house. In 1918, the excursion river boat Columbia was running to one side of the Illinois River when it struck a submerged object; probably a log or a stump. The Captain backed the craft off the obstruction and into the center of the channel before he knew how serious things were. There it rapidly took on water and sank, killing 87 people. Columbia must be a jinx name looking at the Space Shuttle.
I believe there are still a couple of survivors left around here who were small children on the cruise. When I was very young, I used to see an old half submerged river boat by the eastern river bank. I've wondered if that was the remains of the Columbia but I haven't found anyone who can tell me for sure.
Best wishes,
Stan
(Message edited by sreid on November 20, 2005)
(Message edited by sreid on November 20, 2005) |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 962
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 8:21 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
Actually I have to remind myself (occasionally) that for all the loss of life in the major ship disasters, there were survivors (705 on the Titanic for example). I have found accounts of "smaller" disasters which had absolutely no survivors.
Recently I read a book GREAT SHIPWRECKS OF THE PACIFIC COAST by Robert C. Belyk ((New York, Chichester: John Wiley & Sons, 2001). The ten accounts in the book are not on the level of the Titanic in terms of loss of life, but the stories are still frightful (one ship being so old and out of condition as to collapse after a collision. In 1918 the PRINCESS SOPHIA went off course off British Columbia, and got wedged on a reef. Five ships were in the area, but there was a major blizzard going on and the sea was to rough to launch lifeboats safely. Finally the PRINCESS SOPHIA slid off Vanderbilt Reef, and sank. All 318 people on board drowned. In numbers Titanic or Lusitania or Wilhelm Gustloff out number it. But in terms of percentages, one had a better chance surviving those three disasters than the PRINCESS SOPHIA!
[By the way, one of the ship disasters in the book deals with a ship named the Columbia!]
We cherry pick most things. Just look at the various Ripper theories, and how certain facts will be emphasized in them, at the expense of other facts that are not. We choose what we wish to remember or to use. This is just human nature, unfortunately.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2348
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 5:29 am: |
|
Hi Jeff, Stan, Dave,
There was a harrowing documentary the other night about the Benares, a ship evacuating children out of Britain during WWII. (I had to tape it because I also wanted to see the Josephine Baker doc on another channel. That banana dance of hers was wonderful.)
Thinking the precious cargo was out of the U-boat danger zone, and well on its way to safety in Canada, the convoy that had been escorting the Benares sailed off to protect a merchant ship and a U-boat struck. The ship sank and 80 out of 100 young evacuees on board perished.
Some of the survivors told their tragic or happy-ending tales of siblings lost and found, or found too late.
The U-boat crew were stunned when they discovered the nature of their successful hit, but they had no way of knowing.
I heard back from Seth, who said:
Hi Caroline,
Sorry not to get back sooner, it's been frantic here. My father did take me to the set of Rillington Place. I remember meeting Richard Attenborough, in costume but can't remember any detail, though I remember being struck by the way it all worked and how tiny the set was.
I also saw one or two scenes being shot on the set in the studio. I am pretty sure that Rillington Place was knocked down to create the Westway soon after and that the exteriors are the real street and possibly house. But you probably have all those details. My memory is pretty vague as I must have been quite young but I can always ask Dad on specific questions, if he remembers.
Love,
Caz
X
(Message edited by caz on November 22, 2005) |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 608
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 5:56 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff and Caz,
Yes, I should think that it's a good idea to stay off any craft named Columbia.
As for neglecting to mention survivors of shipping disasters, the steamboat Columbia sank here with about 500 people on board so over 400 did not die. That's not a bad percentage especially since the vessel went down at midnight.
Today is the 42nd anniversary of the Kennedy assassination. I'm still sticking to my assumption that there was some minor conspiracy involving either one or more members of Oswald's family, friends (especially those expatriate Russians) or coworkers. Regarding the latter, I've seen people going to work tens of thousands of times and I've as yet to see anyone of them bringing curtain rods to the job. My second choice would be that Oswald acted completely alone and third the Mafia theory. The rest of the explainations seem far fetched to me right now.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 964
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 10:47 pm: |
|
Hi Stan and Caz,
Caz, thank Seth for his interesting reminiscence about the filming of 10 RILLINGTON PLACE. If his father does recall anything further, possibly Seth can relay that to you too.
I heard of several refugee ships to Canada that were torpedoed with heavy loss of life. There was a period that Canada and Britain were literally the only members of the Allies (in Europe - North Atlantic waters) uninvaded by the Germans. The area between Iceland, Greenland, and Newfoundland could not be adequately patrolled, making it a wonderful shooting gallery for Nazi U-Boats. The entrance of the U.S. in 1941 did not immediately improve matters. The east coast and Gulf of Mexico became targetted (successfully) by the Nazis in "operation drumbeat". It was only in late 1942 - 1943 that the tide started to turn against the u-boats.
As for the issue about survivors statistics, my favorite one is for the zeppelin Hindenburg. Of 100 on board, 36 died in the crash and fire. That is one third or so of the total. Compared to the average airplane disaster, that is damned good odds. But because of the filming of the crash, the public concluded zeppelins were less safe than airplanes!
I was attending public school on the day of the shooting (I was in the fourth grade). The class was crying when we heard Kennedy had died. We were sent home early. In it's way it was treated exactly the same way as 9/11 was - with business in New York City closing and everyone returning home as quickly as possible.
I am not fond of conspiracy theories, but why do you feel that it could have been a mino one with Oswald's family, friends, and co-workers?
A few years back there was an article in the Sunday New York Times magazine section about growing up as the daughter of Lee Harvey Oswald. Ms Oswald described a very difficult childhood and adolescence in the article.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 611
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 11:39 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Since it appears that Oswald was planning the assassination for quite some time, it's just hard for me the believe that he kept it a complete secret. It might be a stretch to call it a conspiracy when another person just knew it was going to happen and did nothing to stop it but, like I said, minor. The curtain rod story has always bothered me. I don't think I could have carried something like that into my workplace without being questioned about it.
Oswald was certainly an interesting person with a lot of strange ties as well. Those facts and the seeming lack of outright hatred for Kennedy also makes me wonder if something else was involved. Oswald was not insane; I feel safe in saying.
I believe the Warren Commission showed that he could have acted completely alone and that's a close second to my first choice. Perhaps they looked at all his family, friends and coworkers but I doubt that all were forced to take polygraph tests nor would it have proven much one way or the other if they had.
Best wishes,
Stan. |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 968
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 9:47 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I'm inclined to accept the idea of a lone gunman, although for the wrong reason. I have seen so much crap written about conspiracies leading to the murder of JFK that I have gotten sick of them. This is hardly a fair minded position - one of the conspiracy theories could be true, after all. But what can you do when one theory ties it all to right wing political nuts, or to millionaires who hated the President, or to anti-civil rights bigots, or to the mob (more promising than I wish to admit, due to contacts with the President over the years), or to Castro, or to the Russians, or to the Red Chinese, or to even Madame Diem (her husband had recently been killed, after all). Maybe it was all the theories, intermingling by accident. The height of ludicrousness was the film by Stone. I have seen it was well made and acted, but I can't stand that it was based on a discredited theory of that New Orleans A.D.A. Garrison.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 619
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, November 24, 2005 - 7:02 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Although I lean toward a small conspiracy in JFK, I'm almost certain that Oswald was the lone gunman. Even if there were four shots, we know that Oswald had a revolver. Too bad that chump Ruby had to ruin the investigation.
I considered the source and enjoyed most of the Stone film. Garrison's long boring courtroom summing up at the end was a turn-off though. I've heard that Costner did it in one take without a mistake. It must be about 20 minutes so that's impressive even if the movie would have been better without it.
As I recall, the media pretty much held Garrison's investigation in disrepute. The only person I remember saying anything positive about it was Mort Sol on one of the late night talk shows. I got the impression that he and Garrison had some contact regarding the matter.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 969
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 12:18 am: |
|
Hi Stan,
Costner's feat with the 20 minute summation reminds me of a similar speech in another film based on a crime. In COMPULSION, Orson Welles delivers a summation in defense of Bradford Dillman and Dean Stockwell (the "Loeb and Leopold" characters) that lasts about twelve minutes, and which condemns capital punishment.
The speech was sold on a recording (I believe it won an award).
The reason that Garrison's investigation fell into disrepute was his misuse of his powers as a district attorney to force various suspects to "confess" to their involvement. When they told this to the press the value of Garrison's so-called findings collapsed (to everyone but conspiracy mavens or to Stone).
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2360
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 4:13 am: |
|
Hi Stan, Jeff,
I used to wonder whether Ruby could have been paid by someone to kill Oswald just in case the latter had not been working alone and could have spilled some bad beans.
It's like with Marilyn. I do believe she died from a self-inflicted overdose (possibly more by accident than design - she may have double-dosed herself for example). But if someone suspected foul play that would backfire on them, or feared that some unpalatable secrets might be waiting to be discovered along with her body, they may have tried a cover-up job whether it was needed or not.
Love,
Caz
X
(Message edited by caz on November 25, 2005) |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 970
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 12:03 pm: |
|
Hi Caz,
It's amazing how interconnected some of the 20th Century's most discussed "mysteries" or "questionable cases" become. With JFK it's Marilyn, RFK, and Jimmy Hoffa. It becomes a set of building blocks.
I always felt that Marilyn died due to an accidental overdose. However, a year earlier (I believe) she had an incident where she also overdosed. But there could have been a cover-up due to her relationship to the President. The idea of a murder conspiracy seems far-fetched. She was (in some ways) a tragically confused woman, but she had no great secrets in her that threatened the country's security. Just one involving her and the President, and that was slowly dissolving.
While there is always a possiblity that Ruby killed Oswald to silence the latter for other interested parties, it is just as likely he did it to avenge JFK. I have noticed that in Lincoln's assassination Boston Corbett was treated as a national hero for killing Booth at Garrett's Farm. And when Guiteau shot Garfield, two different men (one a police guard) shot at him (one grazed him). Czolgosz never got shot at after being arrested - but his two court appointed attorneys spent their time at his trial berating him for killing a beloved President.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 626
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 5:57 pm: |
|
Hi Caz and Jeff,
About 45 years ago, I saw Compulsion once so I don't have a real clear memory of it. The film was good, that much I do remember.
I hate to sound like I'm jumpimng on the bandwagon but I also think that MM's death was the result of an accidental overdose.
As far as the other 60s deaths mentioned, I'd put MLK in the small conspiracy group along with JFK. Regarding the other two, I'd say RFK no and Hoffa yes. The latter is an easy call.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 971
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 9:10 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
Actually one could put MLK and Malcolm X (there is debate about who ordered his hit - Elijah Muhammad, Farrakhan, the FBI or CIA) and while RFK was probably just killed by Sirhan Sirhan, there is a theory of a larger conspiracy with Sirhan as the hit man.
One might also add the death of the head of the American Nazi Party, George Lincoln Rockwell (killed by a fellow American Nazi, but was there an FBI conspiracy pushing the assassin to act).
There would also be some civil rights murders (the "Mississippi Burning" Case, Medgar Evers, the church bombings), and some Black Panther cases.
Hoffa's is the easiest to call, but it is still interesting to see how (despite many rumors and leads) they still can't find his body.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 627
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 7:16 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Yes, it would be nice if someone in the know could tell us what really happened to Jimmy Hoffa someday.
Your mention of the Black Panther cases reminded me of their "shootout" with authorities in Chicago where Fred Hampton and Mark Clark were slain. Mark Clark was from Peoria so the killing received substantial coverage here. I think it was established that most, if not all, of the shots were inbound through their door but no one was ever charged with a crime as far as I know.
At one time, I was told that George Lincoln Rockwell was related in some way to painter Norman Rockwell but I have searched and found nothing about it. If it's true, it must be well covered up. Killed by a nutty NAZI follower? Now that's almost redundant.
When you wrote about the Rockwell and Malcolm X slayings, I couldn't help but think back to an article about racial extremists in one of the large format picture magazines, like Look or Life, in the early 60s. They were two of the half dozen or so profiled. Strange that they would both end up murdered shortly thereafter; not that I'm spinning a conspiracy theory here.
The others they wrote about were Elijah Muhammad, Malcolm's mentor and Robert Shelton of the KKK as well as the segragationist radio Reverend Billy James Hargis who was a sort of Protestant version of Father Charles Couglin. Also bioed was JB Stoner of The National States Rights Party. If I remember correctly, he touted his "tolerance" by stating that his organization was against Jews and Blacks but not Catholics.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 972
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 9:58 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
There has been a long trail of the racial extremists before the 1960s. One could add Gerald Smith, the Protestant minister who tried to make himself Huey Long's heir apparent (Long used Smith, but distanced himself from him most of the time). Smith led an anti-Semitic crusade against Eisenhower among others. He also built a large statue of Christ called the Christ of the Ozark. There have been plenty of anti-Semitic Protestant religious revivalists and such. Billy Graham's mentor, Reverend Mordicai Ham, was one such.
As for Stoner's "tolerance", he probably felt that in that White Protestants and White Catholics do believe in Jesus, they have more of a community of interests than they share with Jews or African Americans. I suppose he even feels a community of interest with Eartern Orthodox or Coptic Churchman. Of course it probably is only skin deep.
A neo-Nazi nut does sound redundant, but it can be true none-the less.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 630
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 6:05 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I think Stoner also made that statement about not being anti-Catholic because he wanted to differentiate his group from the KKK which has a policy against the Catholic Church. It's odd to think but, in this regard, the NAZIs are actually more tolerant than the KKK.
Malcolm X and G.L. Rockwell not only met a similar fate, they also at one time had a similar goal, that is, a sort of racial apartheid. I guess it's a case of getting so far right that you're left or vice versa. It's like the Libertarians on the far right and the Anarchists on the far left who have the same goal of getting rid of government. To me they seem closer to each other than they do to the center. Libertarians are basically Anarchists with road projects.
Another thing Malcolm X and Rockwell had in common was that they were murdered by people who were supposed to be on their side. Sort of like Sitting Bull being killed by a Sioux and Gandhi being assassinated by a Hindu. You can't get much farther apart in the spectrum as Gandhi and Rockwell.
Regarding anti-Semite racial supremacists, he's in prison now but I used to live a couple of miles from Matt Hale. I used to see him around town at the grocery store as well as the post office and, as fellow human being, I always wanted to approach him and ask "Man, what in the world are you thinking?!" I know it wouldn't have done any good though.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 974
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 9:52 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
Interestingly enough, considering the view of Rockwell and Malcolm X on racial aparteid, in the 1920s, Marcus Garvey actually had several meetings with leaders of the Ku Klux Klan, who found that in his "back to Africa" movement they actually had a community of interests. Garvey, had he been able to go successfully to his concluding goal, would have tried to unify Africa under himself and his followers. All American born African-americans would have been sent back with him. The Klan would have been all for that.
I'm not sure if Sitting Bull was killed by a Sioux (I think it was Crazy Horse who was killed by an "Indian policeman"). Sitting Bull was killed by a white man I believe.
As for Mohandas Gandhi, though a fanatical Hindu killed him (Godse), there is considerable question to this day about the lack of protection around Babu that day. Gandhi was planning to use his considerable influence to try to undue the movement for partition, and it has been suggested that many Hindo and Mohammadan politicians (who had jobs that might have vanished if partition was abandoned) decided that Gandhi could not be allowed to succeed. Godse may have been used in ways he never expected.
A friend of mine is a Libertarian, and i went to a libertarian book shop with him years ago. They do have anarchist writings in their book stores.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 634
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 1:40 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
That Garvey/KKK meeting must have been quite a sight.
Probably I got Crazy Horse and Sitting Bull mixed up but that doesn't change my point, just tarnishes it. My recollection was that he was killed by an Indian policeman or guard and that he had a premonition about it.
Last night, I watched Cronicas which some say was based on Pedro Lopez and it looks like it was. Last week, I saw Naked Massacre which was obviously a replay of the Speck case. I also finished editing Murder in the Heartland which is about Starkweather. All are good or better films in my view.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 976
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 8:39 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
It is Crazy Horse - he had the premonition about dying at the hands of a fellow native american.
I can't wait until that Crazy Horse monument is finally constructed. It looks quite impressive. Interesting thing is that Crazy Horse (unlike Sitting Bull or Geronimo) never was photographed - we don't know what he looked like.
I have not seen Cronicas or Naked Massacre. I saw a few minutes of Murder in the Heartland. I have to check the imdb board for a film that is about Vacher, the French Ripper. I hope to mention it on the thread dealing with the latest Ripper Notes, which has a review of a book concerning French criminologists at the time of the Whitechapel case.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 635
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 11:26 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
When I was going through those 3/4 million titles on IMDb, the film I found on Vacher was Le Juge et L'assassin. A 1975 French film; I suppose I'll never have a chance to see.
Regarding the Crazy Horse statue, I used to work for Caterpillar Inc. and Korczak Ziolkowski came to tour our plant when he was working on the figure. He was just starting then and was basically using dynamite and one of our tractors to do his sculpting. He's dead now but his family carries on.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 978
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 9:10 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
That is the film based on Vacher - and it was directed by Bernard Tavernier. I saw it in J & R Music World's extensive video store in lower Manhattan about 1999 - 2000, among the foreign films, but I never purchased it. It looked quite good.
I wonder how far they have gotten on that Crazy Horse statue. It is supposed to dwarf Mount Rushmore when finished.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 637
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 11:38 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Although I believe they still have some polishing to do, they have the head and arm pretty much completed on the Crazy Horse statue. From the looks of their model, they still have a few decades of work left to do.
Crazy Horse was camera shy sort of like Abberline. I'm not sure what they used for a likeness unless they have some drawings. I have heard that he had wavy somewhat sandy hair which makes me wonder if he had some Caucasian blood in him.
Intersting about Vacher that he blamed his "problems" on a childhood bout with rabies. If that is true, he must have been the first person to survive the disease and the only to beat it without treatment. Maybe they should exhume is remains and check his DNA.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 979
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 11:01 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I don't think that he was the first or only person to survive rabies. Vacher also may have had a social disease (syphillis) from prostitutes. In any case he was as mad as a hatter, but a great deal more violent. Except for his attacks on males (including - apparently - biting off testicles and penises) he was identical to the Ripper as far as we know.
I don't know if his remains were buried in a way that they could be exhumed. Many countries buried convicts in acids in the 19th Century.
I had never known that Crazy Horse may have had caucasian blood in him. It isn't impossible. Unfortunately it might have been due to a rape.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 640
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 5:51 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I believe the first person to survive rabies after symptoms began to show (unless Vacher was truthful) was a boy who was bitten by a bat in Brazil in the 1960s and that only with very aggressive symptomatic treatment. Before that, they had the Pasteur treatment but that didn't work once the disease progressed to showing symptoms. Today, I'd expect them to use anti-viral drugs.
As far as an exhumation of Vacher, I wonder if they reattach the head of guillotined prisoners before they bury them. I know the head was autopsied to try to find out what made him like he was so it may not have been buried with his body at all.
Vacher was certainly less discriminating than JTR when it came to choosing his victims. If I remember correctly, he was also disfigured so I'd suspect that he would have to rely more on stealth than Jack did.
Regarding the chance that if Crazy Horse had white blood and if so was it from a rape, brings to mind Malcolm X again. I believe I read that he claimed that his grandmother was the result of the rape of his great-grandmother by a white man. I don't know if it was a master slave type of situation. If it was, it must have been at the very end of slavery,
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 980
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 11:27 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
The possibility that Crazy Horse was the descendant of a white man through a rape would certainly add to his beligerency to the white race, just as Malcolm X's claims bout his great grandmother did for his feelings. But this is a two way street. The noted Indian hater, Col. Chivington (of Sands Creek Massacre infamy) took into that massacre the recent discovery that his daughter had been raped in the southwest by an Indian. No single race has ever been able to avoid this type of tragic misuse of women.
There is a book I have called GUILLOTINE IN
LEGEND AND LORE by Daniel Gerould. Just like the photographs of the Ripper Victims, there were also photos taken of criminals post-guillotine results (only of the heads - not the trunks). They presumably did not reattach heads on the criminals. Of course, if the subject was from a well-to-do family, they could have the mortician reattach the head. But this is just a guess.
I suspect you are most likely right about Vacher's appearance versus Jack's, but as we don't know for certain what Jack looked like we can't be 100% sure about it.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 645
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 6:27 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Yes, I've also seen heads of guillotined convicts on display in photographs. I believe they were the last two to be executed in 1977 before France ceased the process. They were sitting with eyes half closed on folded gauze on a sort of shelf; a rather creepy sight.
I heard today that Oliver Stone is getting his movie about 9/11 ready to release next year. It will be hard to make such a bizarre occurrence any more bizarre but I'm sure he'll give it a go.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 981
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 11:06 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
One of the photos in Geroud book suggested some accident or unusual reaction to the beheading effect on one convict. Either the knife deflated the top of the head, or the beheaded head released some internal gases that caused the top to deflate.
As for Stone, I just hope he does not decide to make the disaster a CIA or Federal Government related lie. That French "best seller" casting doubt on the incident could very easily fascinate Stone to make him decide to give a "truthful" account of what happened. He may be a gifted director, but I trust him as much as a Communist, an Al Quaedist, or a Nazi.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 648
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 5:40 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I hadn't heard of a cranial implosion due to beheading before. During the revolution, I had read about children whose heads didn't fit the guillotine apparatus and, since they were understandably pulling back when the blade fell, their heads were chopped in half about nose level. In the case of the example you cited, I wonder if the blade could have been dull enough that it temporarily hung up on the spinal cord on the way through and pulled the brain part way out of the base of the skull. Maybe that would form enough of a vacuum that the skull would cave in. I know it sounds far fetched but that's the best I can do right now.
Regarding Stone's 9/11 movie, how ever he treats it, I imagine it will be met with some skepticism. In the case of the JFK film, a lot of people feared that individuals who weren't alive at the time would take the production as history but I don't see that this happened. As for 9/11, virtually everyone who goes to see the movie will remember the actual event so his licence will be even more restricted. I'm fairly certain he'll do a good job making the movie. I just hope it won't be an exploitation piece designed to influence the congressional elections next year. That would be an unconscionable abuse of a tragic event but that hasn't seemed to stop anyone before.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 983
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 12:23 am: |
|
Hi Stan,
I had heard of the children who were beheaded in the Revolution - one of the horrors of the guilloutine that was noted at the time and since. The only worse thing I heard of was the mass drownings of prisoners by Carrier (I think it was at Lyons but I'm not sure).
Regarding Stone, given his past history and political agenda, whatever he does is going to bear close watching. He will use his films as his mouthpiece or speakers platform to deliver his particular message. One can't imagine his being truly neutral on any subject - and as the current situation in Iraq resembles the Vietnam situation of thirty years ago, he will be only too glad to make the obvious comparisons.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 649
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 6:47 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Interesting that, like the electric chair, the guillotine was designed to replace what was believed to be a more barbaric form of execution and in a way it did. While beheading with a sword or ax, the executioner sometimes had to take more than one whack to get the job done and on a lot of occassions missed the target altogether (I think the sword was considered more honorable than the ax). Designing a machine to behead someone somehow seems even more barbaric to me though. The Germans went on to "upgrade" the device by replacing the force of gravity with a hydraulic piston. There's no halting the march of progress.
I going to watch the new version of War of the Worlds tonight. The earlier film was one of the few Sci-Fi A-movies from the 50s. I hope the 2005 film isn't one of those glorified CG "cartoons". The new King Kong worries me in the same way.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 984
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 9:39 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
The only change the Germans added that I heard of was how they made the guillotine more frightening in World War II by beheading people facing the descending blade rather than going down on the nape of the neck. They always were inventive!
Actually, the Scots invented a machine called "the Maiden" that was like a guillotine.
But it was used in the 17th Century.
I read the Wells novel and heard the Welles radio version, but I never saw the entire Sci-Fi film with Gene Barry. I don't think the remake was really well liked by the critics. THe new King Kong may turn out as bad as the 1976 Dino De Laurentis version.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 650
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 5:49 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I was aware of the other similar execution machines that predated the guillotine but I believe Guillotin made some "improvements". If I remember the pictures correctly, devices like "The Maiden" had a straight or symetrically curved blade rather than the slanted edge that cut more than chopped. I don't think they had a Lunette to hold the head in place either.
The German c. 1940 guillotine that I saw on TV had a very short stroke, that is, the blade only raised enough to allow the insertion of the person's head. Some sort of mechanical device like a hydraulic piston was then tripped and the blade was driven through the neck and returned to the ready position all at blinding speed. I'm not sure if the return was a result of spring loading or if there was something like a return piston. The machine was so efficient that literally hundreds of people could be executed in and hour. The heads rolled down a chute and the bodies were tipped off into another channel.
I don't believe there's much chance of the new King Kong being as bad as that awful 1976 version. That one was in about the same class as King Kong vs. Godzilla.
Regarding War of the Worlds, I have not read Wells' book but I have experienced and enjoyed both the earlier film and the radio program. The new movie wasn't bad but I would have preferred more aliens and fewer crowd scenes. Tom Cruise's kids were so obnoxious in the beginning that I was starting to hope that the aliens would win. The special effects were very good as one would expect but when you know the ending in advance it does take away something.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 986
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 8:23 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
After reading your description of the Nazi innovations it just reenforced my comment about their inventiveness. They certainly knew how to streamline death.
There is a curious anachronism dealing with the 1976 De Laurentis KONG and a popular television show of that period. The comedy show LAVERNE & SHIRLEY began one season with the characters visiting Laverne's grandmother who lives in Little Italy in Manhattan, not in Milwaukee (where the series was set). Even Lenny and Squiggy visit Manhattan, and when they are all planning a day as tourists, Lenny and Squiggy decide to go DOWNTOWN to see where King Kong met his end.
Now LAVERNE & SHIRLEY takes place in the 1950s. Therefore, if the characters were real, Lenny and Squiggy would be headed UPTOWN from Little Italy to go to 5th Avenue and West 34th Street to see the Empire State Building where King Kong "fell to his death" in the 1933 movie. But the series came out in the late 1970s, and the script writers were thinking of the current film, which had Kong falling to his doom from the top of the World Trade Center. Unfortunately for Lenny and Squiggy, there was no World Trade Center until 1966 or so, when it was built. I don't think I have ever seen such a bolixed anachronism on a television series (but if you can recall any - or if anyone can - please do so).
From what I understand, Wells' novel was actually a spoof of British imperialism, with the British the "lesser breeds without the law" facing a superpower invader. But it was one of those cases where the strength of the actual tale was such that it was more impressive than any hidden themes - like FRANKENSTEIN it transcended whatever the author originally intended.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 653
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 6:08 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Yes, I believe that the Germans guillotined far more people than the French but the machine will always be connected to the country of its origin.
If Wells was intending to make a statement about British imperialism in War of the Worlds, he made the mistake of doing far too good a job at writing a spoof that buried the concept. Invaders from another planet are just too compelling to make us think of worldly things.
That Kong version of Laverne & Shirley was an incredibly stupid oversight. I was not a regular viewer, in fact, I think I only saw about two episodes. The show, as you know, was a grandchild of American Graffiti, which was an excellent film in my opinion.
I have heard that the new Peter Jackson King Kong has gotten very good reviews. Oscar anyone?
Last night, I watched one of, if not the first, Peter Jackson film entitled Bad Taste about another invasion of space aliens. In that production Mr. Jackson has a problem with his brains falling out. It's one of those "bad movies" that's sort of funny because it is not trying to be a good film.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 987
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 9:34 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I heard the new Kong was well received, but isn't it too early to speak of "Oscars". Also, it is a trifle ironic. In 1933 the original KING KONG was a really remarkable special affects movie. It got no Oscar nominations (as far as I can recall). But the third film version (fourth if one counts the sad little SON OF KONG) gets possible Oscar nods? Well, the original TITANIC was not nominated, but it's 1997 namesake got many of them.
Wells probably still got his message across, but he was A+ with his imagination and only B in his message. Also, it was the first time anyone had suggested that the World could be targeted by another planet - odd that it took so long.
I have no knowledge of Peter Jackson's films in general, so I don't know anything about BAD TASTE. But there are plenty of funny "bad movies", like ROBOT MONSTER that are so crappy they are funny.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 659
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 10:04 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I don't believe they had an Oscar for special effects in 1933 otherwise the original King Kong would probably have gotten one. It is a great film even beyond that. The reason I said Oscar for the new movie is the timing of its release as much as its content. It seems that The Academy has a short memory and tends to forget good films released in the early or mid part of the year.
The new War of the Worlds doesn't mention the planet Mars, though, in the beginning, they do show a reddish planet that looks very much like Mars. I suppose they thought we know too much about Mars now to think that it could harbor intelligent life.
I really like Mars Attacks which is sort of a blend of War of the Worlds and Dr. Strangelove.
When I was a little boy, I saw the previews to Robot Monsters when I was at the drive-in theater with my parents. At that time, it scared the crap out of me. I have never seen it but I'm sure it would be a howl now.
Beast wishes (HeeHee),
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 988
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 11:21 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
What can you say about a film where the central figure is a gorilla with the head of a robot. And with such peerless dialog as "I am not a hu - man! I am a Ro - Man!"
Once you saw that film - you never wanted to see it again!. And you could not forget it. It would have been one of those cheezy films that were shown to the audience of three (two of them robots) on that cable show SCIENCE FICTION THEATRE 5000 (I think that was the name of it).
I did think EARTH VERSUS THE FLYING SAUCERS was more interesting, when the saucers hit structures like the Washington Monument. A bit of presecience there - that film is from 1955 I think - only 56 years before 9/11.
I did like parts of MARS ATTACKS, but it makes me a bit ill when I look at pea soup.
Beast wishes indeed
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 669
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 4:46 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Men in gorilla suits and diving helmets doesn't really sound very scary but I guess my views were a little different when I was seven years old. If I remember correctly, Robot Monsters was originally released in Black&White 3-D.
I love Earth Versus the Flying Saucers. It was a cut above most of the Sci-Fi B-films of the 50s and you've got to love the sort of dry humor name. The only title that might top it was I Married a Monster from Outer Space but it wasn't as good a film.
In the new War of the Worlds, I'm sure I heard a little Slim Whitman playing in the background at one point. A subtle tribute to Mars Attacks I should think.
I used to watch Mystery Science Theater 3000 every Saturday morning. It was a favorite but once in a while their movies would even be too bad for that format.
Best wishes,
Stan
(Message edited by sreid on December 08, 2005) |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 989
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 11:24 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I think the best parts about the films on MYSTERY SCIENCE THEATER 3000 was the comments made by the three party audience watching these idiotic films. The adlibs would take the cheezy dialog and give it unexpected zippiness. Frequently it would give a cultural reference to some television show or better film (in one film where there were totalitarian soldiers involved, when an officer blundered, one of the robot viewers suddenly said, "Klink, you idiot!" with a German accent).
The titles of EARTH VERSUS THE FLYING SAUCERS and I MARRIED A MONSTER FROM OUTER SPACE were recently duplicated by SO I MARRIED AN AXE MURDERESS. And do not forget Michael Landon's I WAS A TEENAGE WEREWOLF, or DRACULA MEETS BILLY THE KID. There were plenty of miserable titles.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 673
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 5:07 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Almost all of the Mystery Science Theater 3000 episodes were good. There was a Japanese Sci-Fi movie and a European fantasy film that I saw on there though that were so bad that even smart jibes couldn't make you want to watch.
I haven't seen So I Married an Axe Murderess or Dracula Meets Billy the Kid but I didn't think I Was a Teenage Werewolf was as bad as the title might indicate. Although I haven't had time to watch it yet, I do have Jesse James Meets Frankenstein's Daughter on DVD. I'll have to put that on my to-do list for the next month or so.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 990
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 9:04 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I did see the conclusion of SO I MARRIED AN AXE MURDERESS on television a few years ago. It was actually funny (intentionally so). As for I WAS A TEENAGE WEREWOLF, I've never seen it. The only film Landon was in that I saw was GOD'S LITTLE ACRE. But I remember seeing a coming attraction showing Landon's transformation scene.
I think John Carridine was Dracula in DRACULA MEETS BILLY THE KID.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 678
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 6:42 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
John Carridine is certainly much underrated as a horror film star.
I actually saw God's Little Acre, I believe at the drive-in theater. Isn't that the one where Michael Landon plays a sort of albino wild child?
In my view the best Sci-Fi film of the 50s that most people haven't seen is Colossus of New York with Ross Martin. It has a much darker edge than most of the movies in that genre and time.
I see that in a couple of weeks a film entitled Wolf Creek is coming out that's based in Ivan Milat, the Australian "Backpacker Killer". I'm not sure how a creek could be named after an animal that doesn't exist on that continent. There was the, now believed to be extinct, thylasine but most people called it the "Tazmanian tiger". What ever you call it, it was a marsupial.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 993
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 8:45 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
From what I remember Landon's Albino has so-called powers that might help Ti-Ti (Robert Ryan) locate a hidden gold treasure on his farm.
It's been a long time since I saw GOD'S LITTLE ACRE. It was one of the few times Ryan played a good guy. It also gave fairly important roles to Landon and a young comic named Buddy Hackett.
I recall seeing some segments of COLOSSUS on some television documentary about the films of the 1950s. I have never seen the entire film.
As for Martin, the first major role I recall him in was in EXPERIMENT IN TERROR, where he certainly was a dangerous and clever sociopathic criminal.
If you are interested in a book that deals with the thylasine and other extinct animals (or supposedly extinct animals) try Scott Weisensaal's THE GHOST WITH THE TREMBLING WING. The author went around North and South America, and Australia, and searched for several animals that were missing. They included the ivory billed woodpecker, which since I read the book last January has been reported as being found (though some doubts have been mentioned since).
Please fill me in on Ivan Milat - I'm not acquainted with his case.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 680
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 9:48 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
If I remember correctly, "God's little acre" was a patch of ground that the farmer set aside for God that was never to be touched. When he begins to believe the treasure is on that ground, he begins to think that maybe he'll give God a different acre.
Ross Martin made surprisingly few movies. The main things I remember him from are Mike Stokey's Stump the Stars and, of course, Wild Wild West.
That book on "extinct?" animals sounds interesting. I just heard on a hunting show this week that someone claimed to have found some ivory billed woodpeckers.
My dad is a Ham Radio hobbyist, and he frequently talks to a guy in Australia who claims that they find thylasine tracks on his farm often. It's one of the few "extinct" animals we have movie film of.
Ivan Milat was a serial killer who stalked southeast Australia in the late 80s and early 90s. Known as the Backpack Killer, he was convicted of murdering seven hikers and hitchers. He's suspected of killing several more going back into the late 70s.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 995
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 5:35 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
The Weisentsaul book was one I found in COLESSEUM BOOKS last winter - a book store that used to be near Columbus Circle, but lost it's old lease three years ago. It located a new store front on West 42nd Street across the street from the New York Public Library's central building. When I go to the Library, I make a day or afternoon of it, stopping in at COLESSEUM BOOKS to see if anything of interest is on sale (they sell some odd remaindered volumes that change every few months) and having a cup of their special coffees as well as a sandwich (they have an interesting one with eggplant in it).
Last December I had shepherded my cousin and his two sons around the Museum of Natural History, and it suddently dawned on me how little I have read about the dawn of man or prehistory or natural history for that matter. The result was that for much of this year I have been reading books on these subjects. I even tackled my copy (after fifteen years) of Darwin's VOYAGE OF THE BEAGLE. So I kept my eyes out for any books dealing with these subjects at COLESSEUM, and found THE GHOST WITH THE TREMBLING WINGS: SCIENCE, WISHFUL THINKING, AND THE SEARCH FOR LOST SPECIES. It was published in 2002 by NORTH
POINT PRESS, a division of Farrar, Strauss, and Giroux in New York City. Chapter nine (entitled, "The Tiger That Isn't") is about the thylasine (p. 243 - 279). Weidensaul is a pretty even handed writer, although more inclined to skepticism (it's hard to blame him) regarding the survival of species assumed extinct.
Another book I got at COLESSEUM was Rebecca Stott's DARWIN AND THE BARNACLE: THE STORY OF ONE TINY CREATURE AND HISTORY'S MOST SPECTACULAR SCIENTIFIC BREAKTHROUGH. It was published in 2003 by Faber & Faber in London, and I hope to read it in the next few months. One thing that caught my attention in looking it over is that it deals with Darwin's relationship (due to health problems) with Dr. James Manby Gully, at his water-cure spa at Malvern. Gully, of course, is linked forever to the Bravo Poisoning Case.
I remember Martin's "Artemus Gordon" on THE WILD WEST fondly. He was in other films (though few of them, as you pointed out), like THE GREAT RACE. But you remembered that amusing charades game he was on in the early 1960s, "STUMP THE STARS". I watched it when I was about seven or eight years old. Ruta Lee was another regular, as was Hans Conreid, and Sebastian Cabot. It was funny watching all these character actors actually being themselves on this above average "game show". You are the first person I know of who ever has mentioned it.
I take it that Milat was sent to prison for the murders (in Victoria, Australia?). I don't think they have a death penalty in Australia anymore.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 681
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 6:44 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Yes, I remember reading about Gully and his questionable links to Bravo.
Milat was sent to prison. I think it's been about 40 years since Australia has executed anyone. Milat's main hunting ground was New South Wales I believe.
I don't know enough about the make-up of the thylasine paw to know how hard it would be to distinguish from a dog, cat or Tazmanian devil excepting the size of the latter two. Hoaxers are another possibility like the ones leaving sasquatch "prints".
That program, Stump the Stars, was a favorite of mine as well. I think I was about 14 when I watched it so Ruta Lee and Beverly Garland were looking very good to me. Ms. Garland was also in some low budget Sci-Fi 50s films, like It Conquered the World, that I try to watch whenever they're on.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 996
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 10:29 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
In the case of the thylasine, besides difficulties in analyzing reports and "evidence", and hoaxes, there is also a twisted patriotism. This probably extinct animal has been adopted as the symbol of Tasmania (not even the Tasmanian devil has become as popular, even after Warners Brothers cartoon division created "Taz", Bugs Bunny's antipodean antagonist.
I was watching a program this weekend on the history channel dealing with Cryptozoology creatures. The normal ones ("Nessie", the Yeti,
Sasquatch) were dealt with, and naturally the issue of hoaxes came up. That famous "photo" of "Nessie" in shadow from the 1930s is now known as a phony (pity, one of the old suggestions about it was it was actually the trunk of a hidden elephant in Loch Ness!). That film of Sasquatch has been demolished on occasion as well. Why did the monkey like creature fail to turn around and walk over towards the two men taking the movie? Instead it walked away.
My memories of watching STUMP THE STARS are pleasant ones - I watched in in the summer of 1963 when my family went around on brief strolls at night (we had just moved to our new neighborhood), and would get home by ten o'clock and have ice cream or sherbert and watch STUMP THE STARS. I wonder if any of the kinescopes of the series survive.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 684
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 2:59 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Cryptozoology is one of those things that's fun to read about although with skepticism. I never figured how people could believe that "Nessie" was a plesiosaur. They're air breathing, and with the necessary breeding size population, you shouldn't ever be able to look out on the lake without seeing one!
I think there's a show on TV tonight where this group is actually looking for a real version of King Kong. It seems like they called it Giganto or something of the sort. My guess is that it could be the huge, believed extinct, ape known as Gigantopithecus.
You're right about the Patterson film. That "Bigfoot" was walking like Jack Benny.
We might find a new species of deer or something like that but I think all the spectacular land animals have probably already been discovered. There's still a chance that some "monster" could be found in the deep sea.
Besides Stump the Stars about the only game show I liked was Beat the Clock hosted by Bud Collyer who was also the voice for Superman on the radio and in the animated movie series. I have that Max Fleischer series on DVD and love the rich hand drawn animation.
If you take Ripperologist, check out my article in this December's issue.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 998
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 1:20 am: |
|
Hi Stan,
I think I can get the on line Ripperologist, but I am not sure - it's a complicated story regarding whether they got my bank check or not.
If I can, I will look at your article.
I have seen one of the Superman cartoons (or part of one) that the Fleischer studio put out in the 1940s, and it did have some nice animation and color. Of course, I grew up watching the Betty Boop and Popeye cartoons (I still enjoy trying to catch the mutterings of Popeye and Bluto - sometimes their muttered comments are better than the "regular" dialogue).
I can't recall BEAT THE CLOCK, but I remember Collyer from TO TELL THE TRUTH. I also liked I'VE GOT A SECRET and WHAT'S MY LINE. But the WHAT'S MY LINE I remember was with John Charles Dailey, not with Fred Allen. Later on I liked THE MATCH GAME and PASSWORD. Before JEOPARDY I also liked COLLEGE BOWL.
I think the reason people liked the idea of Nessie as a plesiosaur is the idea that something from that "Lost World" survived into our own, and in Europe at that. It suggests a type of continuity with the past.
The program about cryptozoology that I saw did suggest the link of Sasquatch with Gigantopithicus.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 687
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 4:36 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I was wrong! That "Giganto" program is on The History Channel Thursday evening; not that I'm expecting much from it.
We didn't get a TV until 1955 so I didn't see Fred Allen on What's My Line. That's the year he died, I believe. I liked I've Got a Secret and can still remember the panelists and some of the guests. Henry Morgan was my favorite.
I see there's another Burke and Hare movie due out next year entitled The Meat Trade. There is also a new The Boston Strangler but it looks like it's a direct to video. Not all of those a bad however.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 1002
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 11:18 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
The last "new" Burke and Hare film I saw was a quarter century ago, THE DOCTOR AND THE DEVILS that was based on a script by Dylan Thomas. It was not a bad film, and deserved better public reception. I think it was one of the last films Patricia Neal performed in. Jonathan Pryce was in the "Burke" role.
I remember Henry Morgan too, though it's so long ago much of what he said is long forgotten. He was quite witty. On one I'VE GOT A SECRET the contestant was a female soldier in the Israeli army who had been a heroine of the Six Day War (so the show is at least from late 1967). She was telling the panelists of her experience after they had guessed her secret, and how she was among the first to reach some point in the Sinai (Port Said?). Morgan looked impressed and said, "Gee, if you people had had the desire and fuel available to you, you should have been in Capetown, South Africa by now!"
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 1003
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 11:24 pm: |
|
Hello again Stan,
I just realized, I reached "Assistant Commissioner". Haven't had any promotions like that in real life.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 690
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 6:57 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Congratulations on that promotion. To my knowledge, that's as high as you can go.
I think some of the panelists had changed by the time you started watching I've Got a Secret. When I first started watching they were Faye Emerson, Bill Cullen, Jayne Meadows and Henry Morgan. Most, if not all, of whom had a cigarette going throughout the show which was sponsored by the Winston brand. Jayne Meadows seemed to do the best. I remember that she claimed her sister, Audrey, would sit at home and send her psychic tips.
It's funny to listen to some of those old radio shows I have that were sponsored by different cigarette brands. There's one commercial, I believe for Lucky Strike Cigarettes, that says they're "just what the doctor ordered".
I love The Doctor and the Devils and have it on tape. Also, I wrote a brief review of the film for CrimeBeat Magazine in the early 90s.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 1004
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 12:13 am: |
|
Hi Stan,
My favorite two stories about about commercials on radio were dealing with W.C. Fields and Groucho Marx. Fields was on a program that was advertised by a cigarette company (Old Gold or Lucky Strikes I think), and in his monologues and skits talked about a son of his. He did have a son (a lawyer named Ronald Fields) but he described his son's name as "Chester". The show was cancelled when the advertiser realized Fields' fake son was "Chester Fields".
The other story was about a successful radio show Groucho Marx had in the late 1940s (before he did YOU BET YOUR LIFE). It was advertised by Pabst Blue Ribbon. They were celebrating the 50th Anniversary of the founding of Pabst, and the old man (Mr. Pabst) came out of retirement to be on hand. He was nervous about going on radio, and Groucho decided to calm him down by taking him for a drink. He got the old man drunk on Schlitz. He was replaced on the radio show by William Bendix.
When I watched I'VE GOT A SECRET I remember Henry Morgan and Arlene Francis. I remember Bill Cullen was on it too. And didn't Orson Bean appear on it? The host I remember was Gary Moore.
When I saw THE DOCTOR AND THE DEVILS I was with two friends from out of town. We made a night of it. We ate in Little Italy, and chose Umberto's Clam House (because they were curious to see where Joey Gallo was killed a few years earlier.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Kevin Braun
Detective Sergeant
Username: Kbraun
Post Number: 140
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 9:31 am: |
|
Hello Jeff,
Actually you ate at the New Umberto's Clam House (178 Mulberry Street). The New Umberto's opened on May 8, 2000, two blocks from the original location (129 Mulberry Street) where Crazy Joe Gallo was gunned down on April 7, 1972. The Old Umberto's closed in 1996.
Umberto's is still allegedly owned and operated by the Mafia’s Genovese family.
Take care,
Kevin |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 691
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 2:02 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I think Orson Bean was on I've Got a Secret briefly when it was first starting in the early 50s. The main thing I remember him on was To Tell the Truth and the way he always found some way to bring up "the gaBOOOOOON viper".
Maybe I'm wrong but to me it seems like Arlene Francis was on What's My Line. Also, I remember her when she had daily show in the mid-50s which I think was on in the late morning for about an hour.
I didn't know anything about The Doctors and the Devils until I stumbled on it at Blockbuster. Too bad I didn't get to see it at the theater but I don't think it played around here.
That Joey Gallo hit was something. I saw that today is the twentieth anniversary of the shooting of Paul Castellano outside of Sparks Steakhouse.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 1008
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 7:39 pm: |
|
Hi Stan and Kevin,
When I ate with my friends at Umberto's it was in the early 1980s, when THE DOCTOR AND THE DEVILS came out. So it was the old Umberto's that was the scene of my dinner party.
You may be right about Arlene Francis being on WHAT'S MY LINE? Dorothy Kilgallen and Bennett Cerf (and occasionally Martin Gabel) were also on it. As for Orson Bean, I remember his dropping odds and ends into his remarks, like a disease called "dowager's hump".
Years ago I met a woman who was very close to Castellano, though fortunately not with him on the night of that shooting. I also ate at Sparks in the early 1990s.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Kevin Braun
Detective Sergeant
Username: Kbraun
Post Number: 141
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 10:09 am: |
|
Jeff,
Sorry, I missed the "where Joey Gallo was killed a few years earlier" in your December 16 post. I have dined at the old Umberto's several times. A former girlfriend loved the place. I think there are much better restaurants in Little Italy.
Speaking of "Big Paulie", we once saw Roy Demeo and friends at Umberto's. His party consumed massive amounts of alcohol and he became loud and demanding. A waiter told me his name and who he was. I'm glad I didn't complain to the management. There is an excellent book about Roy Demeo called "Murder Machine" by Gene Mustain.
Again sorry,
Kevin |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 692
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 12:42 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Yes, I remember the "dowager's hUUUmp". He always got a laugh when he found a way to insert one of his "Beanisms" as much for the way he said them as anything else, I think. I also remember him commenting on the fact that he was in some way related to President Coolidge.
Speaking of mobsters, I see on another thread here that there's a book coming out where "Bugsy" Siegel is named as the killer of Elizabeth Short. Warren Beatty must have forgotten to put that in his movie.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 1009
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 7:39 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
First it was Orson Welles. Now it's Bugsy Siegel. What other prominent individual in California in 1947 can be made into a suspect in the murder of Liz Short (as opposed to "Long Liz" Stride). Let's see...
Errol Flynn - he was arrested (although acquitted) of statutory rape on his yacht.
Governor Earl Warren - his father was murdered and Governor Warren killed the investigation (he always suspected a neighbor who was insane, and who died shortly afterwards).
Marilyn Monroe - she could have known Liz Short - they both were trying to break into motion pictures. Gee, she may have been trying to get rid of potential screen rivals.
Seriously, why would a person like Siegel (with his hands full of his work in Las Vegas) decide to murder a nonentity in such a cruel manner? Benjamin Siegel had more than one murder on his plate from his long, notorious career. But they were all (as far as I know) connected to his business activities - not his sexual peccadillos. He and Virginia Hill had some stormy arguments, but Ms Hill never is known to complain of overly sadistic actions Siegel showed towards her in their arguments. Whoever bisected Liz Short had considered doing so for some time, either out of intense anger at her actions towards him, or out of an urge to inflict incredible pain.
[You know, it is funny but in just venting here I did something odd - Elizabeth Short is usually called Elizabeth Short or Liz Short. Without thinking about it I noted and put down Stride's nickname, which is "Long Liz". I don't know but it is a strange coincidence.]
What always got me about Orson Bean was that despite the exposure on the quiz show he failed to really register as a character actor. I vaguely recall two performances he did on television outside of I GOT A SECRET.
Hi Kevin,
Umberto was good enough for the one time I went, but it's food did not thrill me (I actually found the sauce of the pasta I had a little watery).
You were very wise not to complain about the noisy Goodfellas.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 693
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 8:32 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Yes, I think we're entering the celebrityitis phase of the Black Dahlia Case. I'm happy to see the "daddy did it" period go but what's the gain? Where's the evidence that either Welles or Siegel ever met Elizabeth Short? I wouldn't be surprised to see Flynn enter the picture at any moment.
Speaking of Marilyn Monroe, I have read assertions that she and Short were acquaintances, although I'm not sure what that's based on. It has been established, however, that she did know some people on the fringes of show business as well as some sort of second teir stars like Franchot Tone and Arthur Lake.
I had to do some computer rehab tonight so I hope this message goes through.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 1011
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 9:17 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
When in doubt blame the celebrities. Kirk Douglas in his book THE RAGMAN'S SON mentions some young actress he met or dated once. Subsequently she died under murky circumstances and the gutter press kept suggesting he was connected. He did not even know her that long.
The fact that Liz Short knew Franchot Tone is interesting because of the incident, a few years later, when Tone was badly beaten by Tom Neal in a quarrel about Neal's estranged wife. But Tone was a victim there. As for Arthur Lake, it's hard to think of Dagwood Bumstead as the killer of the Black Dahlia.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 694
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 1:40 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Yes, I remember Tom Neal sending Frachot Tone to the hospital with a beating. I have a Neal movie entitled Detour on DVD and he's actually a pretty good actor despite his other problems.
In another example of cross-pollination, I've read that Neal was collaborating with Jack Webb to produce a movie in the mid-1960s about the Black Dahlia Murder. Neal was arrested for killing his third wife in 1965 and the project went on the shelf.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 1013
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 9:48 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
Neal was sentenced to jail for a decade or so for manslaughter in that case. Unlike O.J. and Blake he actually did serve time.
There is another interesting homicide among Hollywood actors - Paul Kelly, who went to prison (about 1928) when he killed the husband of his girlfriend (apparently the girlfriend had been mistreated by the husband over a period of time). Kelly and the girlfriend both spent time in prison, but he resumed his career afterwards. He also married the woman (the marriage appears to have been successful).
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 695
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 10:45 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I remember, a few years back, seeing an episode of A.J. Benza's Mysteries and Scandals about the Paul Kelly affair on the E! Channel. Until then, I'd seen Kelly in movies without knowing anything about his past.
He plays a really creepy character in the movie Crossfire. I have it on DVD as well. The message of that film is noble enough but, to me at least, it seems like it's presented in a rather condescending way to the audience.
Benza also did a program on Elizabeth Short. His dry comments could even raise a smirk in that horrible story.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 1017
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 4:55 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
Check out Paul Kelly on the IMDB website. He had a remarkably affective movie career (he even played a D.A. against Wendell Corey and Barbara Stanwyck in THE FILE ON THELMA JORDAN, and try to catch him as the one supporter of Bette Davis in STORM CENTER about censorship). Kelly never got an Oscar nomination (as far as I know) but he won a Tony Award.
I did see a number of Benza's programs a few years back (I think he has stopped doing them). If you check out the "FIND-A-GRAVE" website, he frequently contributes on Hollywood figures.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 697
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 8:53 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Yes, I see that Kelly had a much more varied and extensive career than Tom Neal who, to me at least, seems the more famous of the pair. I was surprised to see that he was a child star going all the way back into the early silent era.
One Hollywood scandal that A.J. Benza missed was the murder of song-and-dance man William Callahan. Although he was more famous for his Broadway work, he did appear in a few movies in the late 40s and early 50s.
Somehow, he and his "wife" turned up dead in a Southern Wisconsin field in 1981. The woman, Wendy McDade, was a chorus girl who Callahan had married in an act of bigamy. Both had been head shot in a style reminiscent of a Mafia hit and substantial amounts of money and jewlery were left on the bodies.
There were rumors that Callahan was involved in drugs and pornography but none was proven nor were any good reasons ever found to indicate that the Mob had a need to off the couple. The case was never solved.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 1020
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 10:24 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I never heard of the Callahan murders. But then there are plenty more "odd deaths" and "suicides" which probably were actually homicides that were successfully passed off as accidental death or suicides.
There is one that I wrote up in an unpublished essay - the death of Peggy Shannon in 1941. It is usually considered due to extreme alcoholism, and it could have been. But I did discover odd about a person who was close to her, which they did not know about in California in 1941. If they had known, that person would have had a bad time of it.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 699
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 1:30 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
The name sounds vaguely familiar but I don't know much of anything about Peggy Shannon.
Probably the most famous example of a mysterious Hollywood death would be Thelma Todd. Good arguments can be made that it was murder, suicide or an accident. My best guess would be the latter but that's mostly just a feeling.
There was of course an Oscar winner who was a murderer, Gig Young. He murdered his wife Ruth in 1978 but dodged a trial by killing himself shortly afterward. I always wondered where the name Gig came from.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 1021
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 11:17 am: |
|
Hi Stan,
And don't forget - one Oscar winner, the Cambodian Doctor who appeared in a film ("THE KILLING FIELDS") and got the best supporting actor award, was murdered back in the 1980s.
The name of "Gig Young" was that of a character that Byron Barr (Young's real name) played in a Barbara Stanwyck film in the early 1940s. He took that name as a better sounding screen name.
And don't forget Albert Salmi and his wife. That case can be compared to Gig Young's.
Peggy Shannon was a briefly successful film actress in the 1930s, but she became an alcoholic. In 1941, after a period "drying out" she had remarried. Her husband went away on a trip, and when he returned he found her sitting at a table in their home dead, with a glass in front of her. The husband, distraught over the tragedy, shot himself a week later.
From something I literally stumbled on I found some information that someone close to Shannon had pulled off a similar act twenty years before.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 703
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 6:58 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Yes, I remember when Dr. Ngor was killed several years ago. Sort of ironic after all he'd been through.
As for Albert Salmi, I saw his story on Benza's Mysteries and Scandals as well. In his case, I think there's a question that it might have been a double suicide.
Speaking of Hollywood names, actually Byron Barr doesn't sound all that bad to me compared to Gig Young. I always thought that Norma Baker sounded sexier than Marilyn Monroe too. In most cases though, I can see why the stars changed their names.
One name change that always amused me was Stewart Granger whose actual name was James Stewart. He couldn't use his real name however because another James Stewart was already using it.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 1026
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 8:31 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
Years ago (it must have been about 1974 or so) the Arts and Leisure section (#2) of the New York Sunday Times had an interview with Fredric March and Flora Eldrich (his wife). March was originally Fredric Bickel, but his agent got him to change the foreign (and "funny sounding") Bickel to March. But at the time of the interview, he pointed out that in 1974, after the success of actor - singer Theodore Bickel, he would probably have kept the original name.
Another funny name switch was Martin Sheen's. As a young man he looked (and still looks) a bit like the iconic James Dean. He also had the last name Estevaz, which in the 1950s and 1960s (despite the success of actors Ricardo Montalban and Fernando Lamas and Cesar Romero) was too Spanish sounding. So (upon advise of his agent) he changed his name to "Sheen" to remind people of "Dean" whom he looked like.
But Martin has two sons who became actors. The older one, Charlie Sheen, took his father's changed name as his own for "marquee" purposes. But his younger brother Emilio kept the original last name of Estevaz. Both brothers have done pretty well in the names they chose.
One of my favorite name changes among movie actors was Gunther Schneider (I think that was his original name). It became Edward Arnold. Thinking of all the plutocrats, crooked businessmen and politicos, the "Jim Fisks" and "Diamond Jim Bradys" that Arnold is recalled for, I can't see him as a "Schneider" (or whatever the original name was).
As for Salmi's tragic end, the probram I saw (not Bensa's, by the way) suggested a typical domestic homicide tragedy (Salmi could not see his wife, couldn't stand it, forced his way into her home, and if he couldn't have her nobody could). The interesting thing regarding the comparative Salmi and Young tragedies (I think they were only two years apart) was that Salmi usually played heavies in his films, whereas Young played nicer characters usually. So that there were (and still are) attempts to explain away the death of Mrs. Young as an accident, followed by a suicide because he was horrified by what he accidentally did. Nothing like that was said about Salmi (that I have heard).
There was also that actor from Saturday Night Live and RADIO NEWS, who was shot by his wife (who then killed herself) in 1999. I can't recall his name, but he was a pretty funny comic actor.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 704
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, December 23, 2005 - 5:25 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I always liked murder victim Phil Hartman on Saturday Night Live. His wife was very attractive but was also apparently nuttier than a fruit cake.
Regarding Martin Sheen, I always heard that he took the name from Bishop Fulton J. Sheen who he reportedly greatly respected. Maybe that's just a local story since Bishop Sheen was from Peoria. I see they are still running colorized kinescopes of the Bishop's shows on The Eternal Word Network. The colorization process actually makes the kinescopes look pretty good. He was originally on the old DuMont Network so the programs must be over 50 years old.
Your mention of Edward Arnold reminded me of Country singer Eddie Arnold. I wonder what the rules are for having essentially the same name. In the same category you had Country singer/humorist Jimmie Dean and still have Rock & Roller Jerry Lee Lewis.
I went out to the shooting range today which is always a lot of fun but now I have to do the gun cleaning which I hate.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 1027
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 23, 2005 - 11:04 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
Hartman was wonderful at the newsman on RADIO NEWS - so absolutely without shame and funny. I rarely watch Saturday Night Live, so I rarely noticed who was on it until they made it on their own or in movies. Actually I knew Billy Crystal from SOAP and Bill Murray from STRIPES before I was aware of their work on Saturday Night. The exceptions were Gilda Radna as Roseanne Rosannadanna and the woman (Emily?) who mangled phrases in her protests ("Never mind!"), John Belushi (the samurai delicatessen owner and the land shark), and Steve Martin (as King Tut dancing).
As for Hartman's wife, I imagine she had very deep emotional problems.
I had not heard of Martin Sheen's being impressed by Bishop Sheen. It somehow does not sound likely or unlikely. I have seen one of Sheen's broadcasts in color - I thought the color was the original film or tape.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 705
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, December 24, 2005 - 6:23 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
It's been years since I've watched Saturday Night Live. Billy Crystal was one of the few regulars who was famous before he got on the show. Always loved that Fernando character. I assumed it was based on Fernando Lamas. "It's better to look good than to feel good."
Regarding the Sheen programs, I figured they were colorized because I'd never seen any in color before but perhaps that was an incorrect assumption.
I know there were shows where the producer had the foresight to film them in color even though color television hadn't come on line yet. This greatly enhanced the value of these programs when they were rebroadcast in syndication. The Lone Ranger and The Cisco Kid were two of these. There may have been others but they're the only ones I know of.
Best wishes and Happy Holidays,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 1028
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 24, 2005 - 8:33 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
Oddly enough, about ninety minutes ago I was surfing the cable stations and I saw an old Bonanza episode in color. I wish the episodes of Have Gun Will Travel and early Gunsmoke were in color - I think the key was that Channel 4 was the first to have color film stock used. It was due to David Sarnoff of RCA (which I believe was a parent company to NBC at the time), as a way of getting people into buying the new color televisions he was pushing.
Oddly enough I LOVE LUCY, which was farsighted enough (or where Lucille Ball and Desi Arnez were far sighted enough) to film each episode, never thought of color film.
I tried sitting through a LONE RANGER episode ten years ago, and just could not get into it. The story was rather corny to me.
I did like Leo Carillo as Pancho in THE CISCO KID. But how many people recall Duncan Renaldo?
"Fernando" was based on Fernando Lamas. Crystal's imitation can only be called "Favulous!". By the way, there is a film with Peter Falk, THE CHEAP DETECTIVE (I think that is the name) that Neil Simon wrote the screenplay for, that sends up old gangster and Bogart films. Lamas does a wonderful deadpan turn as the equivalent of Paul Henried in CASABLANCA.
Best wishes and Happy Holidays to you to.
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 706
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, December 25, 2005 - 5:31 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Regarding Have Gun, Will Travel, I believe that it was the only series to start on TV and then move to radio.
As for The Lone Ranger programs, I never liked the TV version all that well either. I was used to hearing the booming oration of Brace Beemer playing the character on radio and Clayton Moore's rather wispy voice always sort of turned me off when I watched the series on TV.
I do remember Duncan Renaldo in The Cisco Kidd. Some time back, I was told that Leo Carrillo had actually played the Cisco Kidd himself in some early film versions of the character but I've searched IMDb and can find no mention of that "fact". Either they've missed it or the story is apocryphal.
That 48 Hours Mystery about The Black Dahlia Murder replayed again last night. At the end they said that Steven Hodel thinks his dad may have killed at least 31 women of which Elizabeth Short was only one. Like I said, I'm expecting the Kennedy Assassination to enter the picture at any moment.
Best wishes,
Stan
(Message edited by sreid on December 25, 2005) |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 1033
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 25, 2005 - 11:14 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I never knew HAVE GUN WILL TRAVEL ended up a radio show. I just remembered Richard Boone was one of the coolist performers on television as Paladin.
THE LONE RANGER episode that turned me off was one where a teenage girl tries to get her eastern uncle used to the west. At one point he is pushed around a bit by a friend of the girl who has a gun. The girl tries to cover it as "He's just funnin' that's all." I found that was a dubious characterization, and I just could not see any point in seeing anymore of it.
Last night I was busy so I didn't watch any television until late (when I watched MEET ME IN ST. LOUIS on TCM network). Somehow it is hard to believe that Hodel's father killed "at least" 31 women including Elizabeth Short, without stimulating any interest. We have had widespread serial killers (like Earle Nelson, Watson, and Hoch), but usually people note them after awhile. They may not end up being tried, but it is usually due to suicide or death by some other means. But when the method of killing is like Elizabeth Short, it seems stretching things to say that 31 women died by the same killer (presumably in a similar way to Elizabeth).
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 709
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, December 26, 2005 - 5:33 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Yes, Have Gun Will Travel was brought to radio about a year after the premier of the TV show. I believe it ran for a couple of years and then went off while the TV program was still playing. The reason, I think, had more to do with the fact that all radio series were being canceled around that time because almost everyone had switched to television. John Dehner played Paladin on the radio show.
Perhaps it's time to think about a Have Gun Will Travel movie. Maybe someone like Christopher Walken might make a good Paladin.
Mr. Hodel's desire to make his father into this serial killing monster is rather odd. There must be more than meets the eye in their relationship.
Best wishes,
Stan
(Message edited by sreid on December 26, 2005) |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 1037
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 9:23 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I've been entertaining my sister and her two kids for the last day. They were doing some serious shopping today.
I suspect that it is a kind of twisted admiration at work with whatever dislike he feels for his father. Even if you dislike your parent, you are going to want to find some reason to boast about him or her. How about if you imagine he or she got away with a notoriously evil act.
I recall reading a book about Albert Speer in his last years. He may have presented a shocked facade and a guilty acknowledgement of being part of the leadership of the Third Reich, but he was secretly proud that Hitler admired his skills as an architect.
I can imagine John Dehner as Paladin - the right dryness and intellect in that voice of his.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 713
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 10:23 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Hope you had a good visit with your sister and her children. A little power shopping never hurts every so often.
Last night, I watched my DVD of The Man in the Attic. The film was made 1953 but a lot stuff in there makes me think that someone had a early peek at the Macnaghten notes right down to the insane "doctor" suspect who drowned himself in the Thames. A Chief Inspector in the movie is even named Melville.
Watching Jack Palance reminded me of seeing him in Shane at the theater when I was a kid. That's the movie he should have gotten the Oscar for.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 1039
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 8:18 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
You're right - Palance did a wonderful job as the sinister gunfighter. And his shooting down Elisha Cook Jr. is a very famous moment in westerns. It is a better role than City Slickers that he did win for. So is that film he did with Joan Crawford. But best of all is THE BIG KNIFE, one of his few sympathetic tragic roles (his character is supposed to have been based on John Garfield, the actor).
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 716
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2006 - 10:52 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Well I'm back on my own again.
I don't recall seeing The Big Knife so I'll keep an eye open for it. Was the film about blacklisting? The only thing I remember Palance doing on TV was the Ripley's Believe or Not program.
The only film I have where Garfield has a major role is They Made Me a Criminal.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 1045
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 04, 2006 - 10:33 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
THE BIG KNIFE was a film with a Clifford Odets' script. The central figure is a movie actor (based on Garfield) who has taken some unpopular stands, and is watching as his career (which was doing very well) is smashed by the Hollywood system (personified by Rod Steiger, as the studio head - read Louis B. Mayer more than Jack Warner). In the end Palance decides to commit suicide.
I know that there are video versions of these Garfield films: JUAREZ (he played young Porfirio Diaz), FOOTLIGHT PARADE (he had a bit part as a sailor in the "Shanghai Lil" number at the end), BODY AND SOUL (his best performance as a prize fighter), FORCE OF EVIL (another dramatic highpoint, but Thomas Gomez steals the film); THE POSTMAN ALWAYS RINGS TWICE; GENTLEMAN'S AGREEMENT. I think there are others.
I liked Garfield, but my favorite Garfield film is WE WERE STRANGERS, directed by John Huston - about revolutionaries in Cuba in 1933. I don't think it was ever out on video.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 717
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 05, 2006 - 7:59 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
The only other film I have that has John Garfield in it is Crossfire and he just does a cameo in that one as do a lot of other actors.
At the other end of the spectrum, I think I'll finally have time to watch Jesse James Meets Frankenstein's Daughter tomorrow night. That should be an experience although I'm, as yet, not sure what kind.
Yesterday, I went to Barnes & Noble where I ran across that new Black Dahlia book that points the finger of suspicion at Bugsy Siegel. It's a fairly large thorough looking work. Too bad the author felt compelled to "solve" the case. I always preferred Ripper books like Begg's and Rumbelow's that left it up to the reader.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 1049
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 05, 2006 - 10:06 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I haven't seen CROSSFIRE in some time. I know that the villain is Robert Ryan, and two other Roberts (Young and Mitchum) are the good guys, and the victim was Sam Levene. But I can't recall Garfield being in it. I'll have to check.
Hope you have fun with JESSE JAMES MEETS FRANKENSTEIN'S DAUGHTER. It sounds like the type of movie crying for commentary by the audience watching it.
I finally purchased Begg's volume on the Ripper in November, but I haven't read it yet. I have read the original 1976 version of Rumbelow's Ripper book - which I like very much.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 718
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 05, 2006 - 10:29 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I meant to say Jigsaw for that Garfield cameo movie. That film and Crossfire are both in my collection so I guess I got my one-word movie titles mixed up.
More later.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 719
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 06, 2006 - 1:49 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Sorry about that mix-up on those two films.
I'll give you my review on Jesse James Meets Frankenstein's Daughter tomorrow.
Speaking of Ripper books that don't come to a conclusion on who he was, can you think of any other than the two I cited? It's been many years since I read Cullen's book and I'm not sure about that one. I'm thinking he might have gone for Chapman or Druitt.
On the other side of the coin, I'm reading Cornwell's book now and she doesn't even wait until the end of the book to name her man. She practically gives up Sickert on the first page.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 1051
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 06, 2006 - 10:40 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
I have's Cullen's book, which was one of the best pre - 1970 volumes. He did not really espouse Druitt, but it was the most recent theory on the Ripper that had emerged, and the final quarter of the book deals with Monty and his possibly being Jack. It would not be as detailed as Farson's book, but it would be a good brief brief for Druitt as the Ripper.
On the other hand he did not do as good a job with Deeming. He dismissed him using that potted
criminal biography of Mad Fred in L. C. Douthwaite's MASS MURDER. Douthwaite's 1927 volume did not really give a good chronology on Deeming as the Ripper, and was vague on details. He said that Deeming was in prison at the time of the Ripper Murders. I once pointed out in an essay in MEDICINE, SCIENCE, AND THE LAW that Douthwaite was apparently extending the Ripper murders to include the killings in 1889 - 1891 (up to Frances Coles). Most Ripperologists don't accept that. Deeming was in prison for nine months in 1890 - 91. But he was not (from what is known of his movements) in prison in 1888. This doesn't mean Deeming was the Ripper, but it shows a slackness in research there.
I have Cornwell's book too - haven't read it either. One day I will.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Chief Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 724
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 07, 2006 - 4:55 pm: |
|
Hello All
Just a quick note on J.J. Faulkner.
The teller who took the money from the person who signed the name J.J. Faulkner took absolutely no notice of the individual who deposited over 2,900.00 in ransom money. The day that the money was deposited was the last day to exchange gold certificates for greenbacks. The tellers were inundated that day and the 2,900.00 that Faulkner deposited was not even close to the largest deposit made that day. He was also handling payroll and was clearly distracted and working at a fast pace.
When asked for a description of Faulkner he could remember nothing. The authorities kept asking him what 'he' looked like. The teller responded that Faulkner may have been a woman.
Further sleuthing then lead back to the address given by Faulkner when the deposit was made. The address proved to be that a man whose wife had used the alias J. J. Faulkner.
All The Best
Gary |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 724
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 07, 2006 - 6:08 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff and Gary,
I'd think the teller would have remembered Hauptmann's accent if he was J.J. even if he didn't make eye contact. One would also expect that they, from their records, could have tracked down the individuals in line before and after Faulkner and gotten a description from them. Or, perhaps they did.
Regarding Cullen's book, the thing I like about it is that he was able to interview some still living who at least claimed to have some connection to the JTR case. I don't believe any subsequent releases had that option.
Well, Jesse James Meets Frankenstein's Daughter was bad but not for at least one of the reasons I suspected. I expected it would be too outrageous but actually it wasn't over-the-top enough. It stars John Lupton, who I remember from the old Broken Arrow TV series along with Michael Ansara, as Jesse. The film also has a lot of old western character actors in it, most notably Jim Davis as the Marshal.
SPOILER ALERT!!
Jesse and his half-wit partner join up with The Wild Bunch headed by "Butch Curry". During a botched hold-up, the band is pretty much wiped out but Jesse escapes with his wounded pal. They wind up at Dr. Frankenstein's American residence so that the injured man can get much needed treatment. The "lady" doctor, who is actually the Baron's grandchild rather than his daughter, puts the moves to Jesse but he's not interested, having his eye on a local senorita. The spurned woman sends Jesse into a trap that she hopes will result in his arrest and takes advantage of the time to perform a brain transplant on the numbskull sidekick.
True to form, the monster kills his creator. In the end, Jesse rides off into the sunset in the custody of the lawman; his fate unspecified.
I rate the film as not recommended.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Chief Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 725
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 07, 2006 - 6:37 pm: |
|
Hi All
Just to follow up-When they checked the address on the deposit slip no-one by the name of Faulkner lived at the address noted. (537 W.49th Street) However it was the previous address of a Jane Faulkner who had married a man by the name of Carl Giessler. His handwriting was tentatively identified as being the same as that on the deposit slip.
Interestingly Geissler's son had lived one short block away from 'Jafsie' Condon.
All The Best
Gary |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 1052
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 07, 2006 - 9:57 pm: |
|
Hi Stan and Gary,
Stan, having heard your synopsis of what goes as plot in JESSE JAMES MEETS FRANKENSTEIN'S DAUGHTER, I fully accept your recommendation not to bother about catching it. Whatever one can catch from movies like that one is definitely not worth having in the first place. Sorry Jim Davis got stuck in it, but then he did end up as Josh Ewing on Dallas, so the fates were kinder to him.
Gary - thank you for bringing us back to Mr. Faulkner (who we left behind several months back). In actuality it was probably nearly impossible in the early 1930s for bank tellers to recall details of the customers who made deposits or withdrawals in major city banks on busy days. This being a special occasion, the last day that those gold certificates could be turned in, suggests that the person calling himself (or herself) J.J.Faulkner planned to wait for a day like this, fully aware that the money that was in his/her possesion was possibly traceable currency. As for the people on line with "Faulkner" if that party remained inconspicuous while on line few would recall him being there or what he looked like. They'd be concentrating instead on whether they would reach the teller's cage before the bank closed it's doors.
The connection between "J.J.Faulkner", Jane Faulkner, Carl Giessler, and John F. Condon is interesting. Poor "Jafsie" has been turned from a well-intentioned meddler into a potential criminal facilitator or aider and abetter over the years. Yet I don't think anybody has ever actually found anything in his known record showed a criminal streak. He did admire Lindbergh. He is in a photo from 1940 with Charles Lindbergh at an American First rally. Hardly the action of somebody who was possibly involved in the kidnap-murder of his hero's oldest child.
Cullen's book was the last one of note that discussed what survivors of the 1880s (in the mid 1960s) believed they remembered. One of the stories Cullen mentions is the one of Mary Kelly's funeral, and the two young people who see
a male "mourner" who thinks he's alone - and spits into the grave.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 725
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 07, 2006 - 11:52 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff and Gary,
Hmm; it almost looks like Jafsie might have pinched a little of the cash for himself and then fenced it to the kid.
At first, I thought the "small" sum of $2900 would eliminate the mob as a suspect. Why would they risk being caught for that paltry amount? However, that would probably be more like $29,000 in today's money and maybe even more due to the depressed times.
As for "cult" films, I've got A Bucket of Blood and Drive-in Massacre on my docket over the next couple of weeks. The Film Institute has to be begging for those two.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 1053
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 08, 2006 - 3:19 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
The only story about the kidnapping and organized crime that I recall was Al Capone's offer to aid Lindbergh's search for his son, and later his search for the kidnapper. But this offer (obviously done for publicity sake) was never taken up...probably fortunately for the investigation). You are right that the $2,900.00 would have had inflated value regarding the world of depression America in 1932.
As for cult films, I put down a review of ROBOT MONSTER on the IMDB Board last night.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 726
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, January 08, 2006 - 5:27 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I think there were some vague assertions that organized crime might have been involved in the Lindbergh kidnapping. Capone's offer was probably the main genesis of this thought. I agree that "Snorky's" move was almost definitely done in an attempt to make the public sweet.
As for Robot Monster, I'll try to check out your review. Nothing like men in gorilla suits and diving helmuts to make an epic film. Have you seen it recently and wasn't it originally in 3-D? Like I said earlier, I've never seen it but I saw the previews at the drive-in with my parents when I was about six years-old and it sort of scared me then. I remember lying in bed thinking about how frightening it would be for Earth to be attacked by a more advanced force.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 1057
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 08, 2006 - 7:55 pm: |
|
Hi Stan,
The version of the film I saw decades ago was probably not the 3-D version. Somehow, unlike DIAL "M" FOR MURDER or HOUSE OF WAX or INFERNO, 3-D probably did nothing to save ROBOT MONSTER. Massive script rewrites, a larger budget, better actors, and a better director might have saved it
from being the garbage it was.
If we are ever attacked from outer space by creatures in gorilla suits and diving helmets I am certain they will be so stupid that we will have little trouble defeating them.
Was Big Al's nickname "Snorky"?
Best wishes,
Jeff |
|
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