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Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Message Boards » Books, Films and Other Media » Non-Fiction Books » Uncle Jack (Williams, 2005) » New Release » Archive through April 20, 2005 « Previous Next »

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Stephen P. Ryder
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 3222
Registered: 10-1997
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 9:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)



Uncle Jack
Tony Williams
£16.99
Hardback
256 pages
198 x 129 mm
ISBN: 0752867083
Publication: April 2005


From Orion Books:

quote:


The solution - finally and beyond doubt - to Britain's most notorious unsolved crimes - the Jack the Ripper murders of 1888.



* The person identified as the killer of five women in London East End in 1888 has never before been named a suspect in more than a hundred years of intense speculation.
* The co-author of the book is the great-great-nephew of the killer, who discovered extraordinary evidence while researching his illustrious ancestor. He did not set out to find Jack the Ripper, and did not want to believe that his great-great-uncle could have been responsible. But the evidence is incontrovertible.
* The killer was a very eminent man in his field, and naming him will cause huge shockwaves in the places where he is still venerated.
* No one has ever been able to find any evidence linking any of the suspects to the victims. This book puts forward clear evidence connecting the killer to three of the five victims, and circumstantial evidence connecting him to the other two.
* Patricia Cornwell's international bestseller PORTRAIT OF A KILLER may have established that artist Walter Sickert wrote incriminating letters, but all other authorities (including the police) have always believed that the letters were a hoax and were not written by the killer.
* The authors prove that their suspect was in Whitechapel at the same time as the crimes were committed, and had the knowledge and skills which the nature of the murders required.
* For the first time, the book presents a consistent and plausible explanation for every aspect of the case, meeting all the key criteria of method, motive and opportunity. It also explains why the murders stopped as suddenly as they started.
* The authors have even discovered what they believe to be the murder weapon. Further forensic testing may be able to establish this beyond any reasonable doubt.




And a bit more information from a posting made to soc.genealogy.britain by Roy Stockdill on 18 April 2005:


quote:

Ripperologists - students of the Jack the Ripper murders in Whitechapel in 1888 - will be interested to know that a new candidate for his identity has emerged today.

A whole-page feature / book review in the Daily Mail reports that an eminent Welsh surgeon, Sir John Williams, who was a founder of the National Library of Wales, has joined the lengthy list of suspects (over 20 at the last count). Sceptics will no doubt scoff, but what is interesting is that the book has been written by one of Sir John's own descendants - or, in fact, colateral descendants, since the author's grandmother was the surgeon's great-great-niece.

The author, Tony Williams, believes he has actually handled the surgical knife with which his ancestor committed the murders and, somewhat ironically, it is in the National Library of Wales which was left some of Sir John's personal possessions. Sir John Williams was obstetrician to Queen Victoria's youngest daughter and President of the Society of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists and was made a baronet. However, his wife Lizzie was unable to have children (they married in 1872) and the author says it was his ancestor's obsession with her lack of fertility that made him commit the murders as part of his research into the reasons for it and why he mutilated the women so horribly.

Williams also claims to have uncovered a diary for 1888 and other evidence that indicates Sir John knew the women as patients when he worked in the East End of London and that he was there on the dates the murders took place. Further, he claims Sir John may have had an intimate relationship with the final victim, Mary Kelly, when she lived in Cardiff before moving to London and becoming a prostitute.

Well, it's as good a theory as most of the others, especially Prince Eddy the Duke of Clarence, Sir William Gull, Queen Victoria's personal surgeon, Walter Sickert, the artist, and James Maybrick who was poisoned by his wife. Sir John Williams died in 1926.




Thanks to Glenn A. for bringing this to my attention! :-)
Stephen P. Ryder, Exec. Editor
Casebook: Jack the Ripper
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg

Post Number: 2123
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 9:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

those of us who have read todays mail are still smiling!
"All you need is positivity"
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg

Post Number: 1416
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 11:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi all

I guess this just about says it, "Williams also claims to have uncovered a diary for 1888. . ."

Bring it on! If we can weather Patricia Cornwell's advocacy of Walter Sickert, Harrison and Feldman with Jimmy Maybrick, and Richard Wallace's anagrams for Lewis Carroll having done it, why not this new claim?

I do find it interesting that the descendant is happy to clap his eminent forebear in the dock. Much like Steve Hodel, pushing Daddy forward as the Black Dahlia murderer. blush

Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin

Post Number: 809
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 12:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi everybody,

The BBC has a story about the Williams book as well as comment by Trevor Marriott and the National Library of Wales.

I don't know anything about the content of either the Williams or Marriott books, but I have to say I have to give it up to some of these recent authors (or their publishers) who have managed to get their titles out in the public eye. The curator of Red House Museum just referenced D.J. Leighton's book to me and that just came out.

Cheers,
Dave
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg

Post Number: 1417
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 1:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi David

Thanks for that link.

I really have to see this proof. Here we have a physician to the Royal family, and as the BBC article states: "[Williams] claimed [the evidence] showed that Sir John [Williams], his grandmother's great-great uncle, knew all five of the Ripper's victims and had treated them." Really??? A high society doctor treating the poor women of the East End of London, the unfortunates? That really stretches credulity. . . and no one knew about it until now? It's one thing to postulate that Dr. William Gull would go out murdering prostitutes, but quite another thing to claim a Royal doctor treated the women then murdered them.

All my best

Chris



(Message edited by ChrisG on April 18, 2005)
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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George Hutchinson
Inspector
Username: Philip

Post Number: 472
Registered: 1-2005
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 1:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ooooh God. How do these people get published? I mean, really, how do they get published?

My mum sent me the news about this from her paper this morning. I was just sitting there reading her e-mail with a face of total boredom and disapproval.

Hopefully this will arouse as much interest as a cabbage. Mind you, a CABBAGE on JTR would be quite interesting!

PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin

Post Number: 810
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 1:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Chris and Philip:

Since when is proof required? All that's needed is a charitable hospital servicing a nearby workhouse, a few "could haves" and "would haves", a diary, and some water--Cup O' Theory. It will sell because the general audience doesn't care about the history but is instead looking for the same kind of thrill they get from Amber Frey books or Friday the 13th movies.

I once joked with someone in the chat room that I could come up with a ridiculous but semi-plausible theory that he was actually the Son of Sam killer--didn't matter that he was just a kid at the time because you know, kids kill and New York has an excellent public transportation system.

Dave

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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg

Post Number: 1418
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 1:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Philip

I agree ... one does wonder, although I think the juicy bait of Jack the Ripper is always going to entice publishers.

I am wondering if since Tony Williams is quoted in the BBC Online article as saying, "Other diaries and medical notes in London and Cardiff revealed that Sir John knew all five victims" (emphasis mine) -- is part of the claim going to be that Sir John Williams treated Mary Jane Kelly when she was in Wales?

I also wonder how careful the author has been to make sure that while the names are similar or the same, are they the exact same women who were killed in Whitechapel? Those of us who have been around Ripperology for a while know that there were quite a number of Mary Kellys, George Hutchinsons, and so on, and there are a number of pitfalls in making the assumption that just because the name is the same it is one and the same person.

Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna

Post Number: 3395
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 1:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Good points, Chris.
AS for me, I am can't wait to see the groundshaking "evidence".

Can we look forward to a new Joseph Gorman/sickert here?

All the best

(Message edited by Glenna on April 18, 2005)
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden

The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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John V. Omlor
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Omlor

Post Number: 1362
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 1:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sir John!

A diary!

Finally, I have found a home!

Delighted beyond words,

-- (Sir) John
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris

Post Number: 1916
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 2:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Here is some info on which to start:
Census data:
Dr. John Williams

1871
13 Cradock Street, Swansea
Head: John Williams aged 30 born Llangadock, Carmarthen - Doctor of medicine
Servant - Eliza Daniel aged 18 born Glamorganshire

1881:
28 Harley Street, London
Head: John Williams aged 40 born Llangadoch, Carmarthen - Physician M.D. Lond., F.R.C.P., London.
Wife: Mary E.A. Williams aged 31 born Morriston, Glamorgan
Servants:
Anne Bartlett aged 22 born Farnborough
Mary Kempin aged 21 born Leicester


1891:
63 Brook Street, Mayfair, London
Head: John Williams aged 50 born Llangalad (sic) - Physician / Surgeon - Married
Servants:
Sarah Ruddle aged 36 born Wiltshire
Ada Macey aged 17 born West Bagholt, Essex
Ellen Walsh aged 18 born Chelsea
Fanny Heasman aged 26 born Ardingley, Sussex

1891:
(Wife)
Ynistawe, Llangyfelach, Glamorgan
Head: Richard Hughes aged 74 born Montgomeryshire - Tin plate manufacturer
Wife: Mary Hughes aged 57 born Morriston, Glamorgan
Daughter: Mary E.A. Williams aged 41 born Morriston - Married - General practitioner / Surgeon
Nephew : Edward R. Morgan aged 41 born Llangyfelach - Registered M.R.C.S. / Surgeon


1901:
Plas, Llanstephan, Carmarthen
Head: John Williams aged 60 born Llangadock, Carmarthen - Physician / Surgeon
Wife: Mary E.A. Williams aged 51 born Moriston, Glamorgan
Servants:
Alice Maud Fletcher aged 20 born Woolwich
Margaret Cregeen aged 26 born Liverpool
Edith Florence Stoke aged 27 born Wimbledon
Elizabeth Winter aged 24 born Westminster
Henrietta Phely aged 21 born Westminster


Here is his obit from the Times (1926):
willobit
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris

Post Number: 1917
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 2:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Another snippet that might be of interest - a case from 15 March 1895 in which Williams was called in to treat the victim of an illegal abortion:
willabort
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Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse

Post Number: 231
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 2:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sounds like he would have been 49 years old in 1888.

RH
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David Knott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dknott

Post Number: 77
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 2:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)


Sir John Williams
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Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn

Post Number: 1387
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 3:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi,
To use a remark made by Cornwall' Take a look at the son of a bitch'
I am lost for words.
I am sure the book will be a good read if only for the obvious attempt to cash in on this extremely commercial subject.
But if i am wrong.... Simply i would have wasted the last forty years of my life chasing suspects, that simply do not include this said gentleman.
Richard.
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Christopher J. Morley
Police Constable
Username: Cjmorley

Post Number: 7
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 4:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It is always nice to see a new Ripper title on the shelf, and I for one am looking forward to reading it, I wish the author every success.
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Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100

Post Number: 840
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 4:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It's funny that the BBC seems to have Trevor Marriott noted down as its "RentAQuote" source on Jack the Ripper.

Chris Phillips

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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris

Post Number: 1918
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 4:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

These further notes from the Orion Books site might be of interest:
Evidence
Some of the principal evidence that has been uncovered is as follows. In all cases Tony Williams has proper, recorded evidence to compellingly flesh out each point:

It is accepted that the murders were committed by one who knew and had an interest in human anatomy, given the skilful removal of internal organs – in some cases parts of the victim’s reproductive system – after death. Williams was a student of anatomy and leading light in research into abdominal obstetrics and infertility. More than this, he had a very personal interest in the subject as he and his wife were unable to have children.

Williams worked at the Whitechapel Workhouse Infirmary. Three of the victims attended this Infirmary while he worked there. The fourth victim was also treated by him and her name is clearly recorded in his medical notebook. The fifth victim was Mary Kelly. Williams had an affair with a working class girl called Mary and a definite link between the two of them has been uncovered. This means that Williams knew and picked out in advance all five of his victims.

In Williams’ personal archive at the National Library of Wales, four objects link him directly to the crimes: a knife that resembles in every single respect the murder tool intricately described by the police surgeon who examined the victims’ bodies, a detailed medical notebook, his diaries – with just the one for 1888 having had the pages carefully removed – and some mysterious medical slides with human matter on them.

Tony Williams is in possession of a letter from Williams to a friend clearly placing him in Whitechapel on the night of the murder of Annie Chapman, the second victim.

Sir John Williams’s life is well-documented and much fascinating insight into his life and personality has been uncovered to illustrate and back up all the other evidence.


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Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder

Post Number: 629
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 4:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The thing that disturbs me the most about the BBC article is that the BBC keeps running to Trevor Marriott as the default Ripper expert whenever someone else says anything about the case these days. What's up with that?! You'd think somebody over there will multiple books published, the respect of his peers and maybe some connections to somebody who could get the BBC's ear could topple Marriott off his PR throne, because this is getting ridiculous.

Yes, that's the part that disturbs me most and not the book itself. It sounds strange and dubious, but I'll wait until I see it. At least it's a new suspect instead of taking a few more whacks on some long dead equine.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile    Email    Dissertations    Website
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David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin

Post Number: 811
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 4:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Chris Scott,

Neal Stubbings cites Catherine Eddowes's visit to Whitechapel Workhouse Infirmary, writing that she was admitted for a burned foot at 5.15 pm, Tuesday 14th June, 1887 and then discharged 20 June, well over a year before her murder. (Just referencing that--I know you know) :-)

Hi Chris Phillips and Dan Norder,

The BBC just ran a story on Trevor Marriott--he also probably has a good agent or his publisher has a good publicity department. If I were a Ripper expert (I never will be), I would be asking my agent why the BBC doesn't ask my opinion on these matters!

Dave

(Message edited by oberlin on April 18, 2005)
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Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn

Post Number: 1390
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 4:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Chris,
If all the evidence you have mentioned is true, then without a doubt this man is a major suspect for the whitechapel murders. however I for one am extremely dubious until definate proof comes obvious.
For Exsample.
He may have been resident at the Whitechapel infimary, he may well have treated the fourth victim[ Eddowes] or stride depending if Tabram is considered the first.
But anyone in that infirmary could be labled as a suspect...
I would like nothing better to identify the killer, and it to be logged into history, but I for one would like to be more convinced, yet this new publication may well convince me.. Lets see......
Regards Richard.
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris

Post Number: 1919
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 4:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Administrative/Biographical history: Sir John Williams was born 6 November 1840 at Gwynfe, Carmarthenshire, the son of David Williams, Congregational minister and farmer, and his wife Eleanor. Educated locally, he entered the Normal College, Swansea with the intention of joining the ministry, but left to study medicine at Glasgow University, 1857-58. He was subsequently apprenticed to two Swansea doctors, and went on to the University College Hospital, London.
Once qualified, Williams returned to Swansea to practice, where he began collecting books of Welsh and Celtic interest which would form the basis of the collections of the National Library of Wales. In 1872, he married Mary Elizabeth Anne Hughes, and returned to London. He took up the post of House Surgeon at the University College Hospital - the beginning of a successful career as a medical practitioner, teacher, and Court Physician. He also dedicated his energies toward the establishment of a Welsh Hospital in South Africa during the Boer War, and toward the campaign for the eradication of tuberculosis in Wales. In 1894, Williams was made a baronet, and he received honorary doctorates from the Universities of Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen and Wales.
1903 saw Williams return to Wales once again, settling at Llansteffan, Carmarthenshire, in order to be closer to, and more involved with Welsh culture during his retirement. He had become involved with the Welsh Library Committee of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth, which was calling for the establishment of a national museum and library for Wales. In 1898, Williams purchased the Peniarth collection of manuscripts, with the aim of donating it to the National Library of Wales - if that institution was established at Aberystwyth. It was, and Williams donated the Peniarth and Llansteffan manuscripts, along with his own library of books, to the institution on its opening in 1909. He was naturally made first President of the National Library of Wales, a position to which he was re-elected on many occasions. He was also made President of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth in 1913. He died at Aberystwyth, 24 May 1926.


This is from
http://www.rhwydwaitharchifaucymru.info/cgi-bin/anw/fulldesc_nofr?inst_id=42&coll_id=10016&expand=
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris

Post Number: 1920
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 4:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Here is another pic of Williams:


and this is the house he lived in at Blaenllynnant:
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris

Post Number: 1921
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 5:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Williams was doctor to and close friends with Margot Asquith, wife of the future Prime Minister, Herbert Asquith. In Chapter 8 of her autiobiography she writes the following:

Sir John Williams was my doctor and would have been a remarkable man in any
country, but in Wales he was unique. He was a man of heart without
hysteria and both loyal and truthful.

I was gradually recovering my health when on May the 21st, 1895,
after an agonising night, Sir John Williams and Henry came into my
bedroom between five and six in the morning and I was told that I
should have to lie on my back till August, as I was suffering from
phlebitis; but I was too unhappy and disappointed to mind. It was
then that my doctor, Sir John Williams, became my friend as well
as my nurse, and his nobility of character made him a powerful
influence in my life.

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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard

Post Number: 327
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 5:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If some of you think you are irritated, here I lost a $5 bet that there wouldn't be a new suspect in the immediate future.

Hate to say this but..does anyone think this Williams guy will allow testing done to his letters of incontrovertible evidence ?

Hmm.....just thinking about that sawbuck I lost...anyone wanna bet this guy comes up with another piece of evidence within a years time to verify the diary and letters ? $5 sez he does.
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John V. Omlor
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Omlor

Post Number: 1363
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 5:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey Howard,

$10 sez someone "finds" his watch within that time.

What a sad and wonderful world,

--John
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John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage

Post Number: 362
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 7:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi All,

For the interest of those who like the Robert Lees story, I note that Sir John Williams address given above is 63 Brooke Street, just up the road from Sir William Gull at number 74!

Rgds
John
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg

Post Number: 1421
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 11:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi all--

The "evidence" is already sounding a bit suspect. The general statements given out on the BBC site have it that Sir John Williams "knew all five of the Ripper's victims and had treated them." The Orion site says only that three of the victims attended the clinic, but that doesn't mean that he treated them, even if his notes show he treated Eddowes. And that he had a mistress named "Mary" does not mean that the mistress was Mary Jane Kelly. In fact a physician to the Royals would be unlikely to have a mistress in a place like Miller's Court.

Orion: "This means that Williams knew and picked out in advance all five of his victims." No it doesn't.

Orion with more shaky statements: "It is accepted that the murders were committed by one who knew and had an interest in human anatomy, given the skilful removal of internal organs – in some cases parts of the victim’s reproductive system – after death. Williams was a student of anatomy and leading light in research into abdominal obstetrics and infertility. More than this, he had a very personal interest in the subject as he and his wife were unable to have children." [That last point is an odd statement to make about an eminent surgeon even in Ripperland.]

And though we hear that Sir John's diary for 1888 had been found and would be evidence, . . . er, pages are missing. blush

Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg

Post Number: 2126
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 4:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

John,
indeed the thought had crossed my mind.

in relation to this guys address, ahh!!

Jenni
"All you need is positivity"
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris

Post Number: 1926
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 8:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well guys the story has certainly made the daily papers over here. Below is the full page article from the Daily Mail from yesterday:

Daily Mail (UK)
18 April 2005

RELATED TO THE RIPPER?

The rent collector was growing angry. He'd been hammering on the door of the East End hovel for five minutes and shouting the occupant's name. He knew she was there and was determined not to leave without his money.
Cursing to himself, he peered through the filthy window - then recoiled in horror as bile filled his throat. Mary Kelly was at home but clearly not in a position to answer the door.
The 25 year old prostitute, regarded locally as something of a beauty, was lying lifelessly on her blood soaked bed, her body savagely mutilated. She'd been sliced open, her internal organs strewn around her.
Later, police discovered her uterus and kidneys under the bed along with one of her breasts. Her heart was missing.
Dr. Thomas Bond, who was called to the scene, wrote: "The whole of the surface of the abdomen and thighs was removed and the abdominal cavity emptied of its viscera.
"The breasts were cut off, the arms mutilated by several jagged wounds and the face hacked beyond recognition."
Kelly, who'd drifted into street prostitution after being widowed, was the last of Jack the Ripper's five victims.
But although she's been strangled and mutilated like the others, there were some notable differences about her death on November 9, 1888 - not least that she was the only one to die inside her own home.
For the previous two months, the Ripper had been killing women and removing their sexual and internal organs with surgical precision, right there on the streets of Whitechapel - two of them had died on the same night. He'd had to act with remarkable audacity and speed.
But with Kelly, the Ripper had taken his time and made full diabolical use of it. Everyone who saw her hollowed out remains agreed that this was the Ripper at his most devilish and insane.
Ripperologists generally agree that the serial killer's spree came to a halt with Kelly's death. The five murders were never solved and today there are dozens of competing theories about the Ripper's identity.
There are now more than 20 suspects in the frame, including Queen Victoria's grandson, the Duke of Clarence; artist Walter Sickert; and James Maybrick, a Liverpool merchant.
Now a fascinating new book points the finger at a previously unconsidered suspect - Sir John Williams, a Welsh born pillar of the Victorian establishment.
An eminent surgeon, he was obstetrician to Queen Victoria's youngest daughter but inexplicably abandoned his career at around the time the Ripper murders ended.
Intriguingly, Sir John stands accused of being one of history's most notorious serial killers by one of his own descendants.
Writer Tony Williams, whose grandmother was Sir John's great great niece, claims that Sir John slaughtered and mutilated prostitutes in a frantic bid to find an answer to infertility, his area of research and something that had blighted his own marriage.
Williams' search for the Ripper began when he came across a surgical knife - so well used that its point had snapped off - among Sir John's personal possessions held at the National Library of Wales, of which his ancestor was a founder.
He also found a letter, dated September 8, 1888, in which Sir John apologises to a friend for cancelling an evening appointment because he had to attend a clinic at Whitechapel.
September 8, 1888, was the night the Ripper's second victim, Annie Chapman, was found dead, her skirts hoisted above her hips, exposing horrific abdominal incisions.
Williams also discovered an 1888 diary belonging to Sir John, with many pages missing, and another document which listed an abortion the surgeon had performed in 1885 in a woman called Mary Ann Nichols - the name of the Ripper's first victim.
So who was Sir John Williams and what exactly is the evidence that points to him being Jack the Ripper?
Sir John had grown up on a farm in Carmarthenshire before moving to London to study medicine. He was a prize winning student but, surprisingly, he returned to Wales after qualifying.
It was while working as a GP in Swansea that he met his wife, Lizzie. Sir John and Lizzie married in 1872 - he was 32 and she was 22 - and they moved back to London, where the doctor quickly gained a reputation as a pioneering expert in obstetrics.
He became President of the Society of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists and was later made a Baronet.
According to documents, he was not popular with his peers, who judged him difficult, vain and aggressive.
However, Sir John turned on the charm for his most aristocratic patients and Queen Victoria and her family apparently adored him.
His career was an undoubted success but by the mid 1880s, he had grown unhappy in his marriage. He was obsessed with continuing his family line but Lizzie was unable to conceive. It was painful and humiliating for the obstetrician not to be able to get his own wife pregnant.
At around this time, Sir John is listed as working at several respectable London hospitals, but Tony Williams claims to have uncovered evidence that the surgeon also worked at the Whitechapel Workhouse Infirmary in the East End - during the Ripper's murderous spree.
And, according to his book, all five victims had been treated there at some point, raising the possibility that the women knew Sir John.
Further, Williams says Sir John was practising there on the weekends when the murders took place.
Williams suggests that Sir John used the sick women of the East End as guinea pigs on whom to practise his surgical skills. If these women complained, no one would listen to them.
And, of course, Sir John was also looking for the answer to his wife's infertility. When the women of the Workhouse Infirmary failed to provide that, did he decide on a more bloody course of action?
By killing, Sir John would have been keeping his research - and his chance of fatherhood - alive.
Williams claims, moreover, that Sir John knew his last victim, Mary Kelly, as more than a patient; that he'd had an intimate relationship with her and that this was why she allowed him into her home.
After Kelly's death, her boyfriend Joe Barnett, a porter at Billingsgate fish market, told a coroner's court that Mary had been born in Limerick but raised in Wales.
She was married to a collier who'd died in a pit explosion, after which she'd spent time in Cardiff Infirmary for an unrelated illness.
It is suggested that Sir John and Mary Kelly's paths first crossed in Wales - perhaps in the Infirmary.
Indeed, it has long been part of Williams family folklore that the surgeon had an affair with a working class girl called Mary, whom he had set up in rooms near his home in London.
Certainly, Kelly had lived in the smart West End of London when she first arrived in the capital.
She had been the kept woman of a rich client, but she always refused to name him. At some point, this client had abandoned Kelly and she'd moved to the East End where she'd been forced into street prostitution.
And there is the mystery of Sir John's breakdown - this coincided with the end of the murders - and his decision to quit London and his glittering career for a quieter life with Lizzie in Aberystwyth.
Following Lizzie's death in 1915, Sir John threw all his energies into establishing the National Library of Wales until his own demise in 1926.
It's doubtful that the National Library will delight in the new book suggesting one of its founders is the Ripper.
And it would be a surprise if no members of Tony Williams' own family are angered by his accusations about a man who has, until now, been held in the highest regard.
But Tony Williams is hoping that his book will persuade library officials to have Sir John's surgical knife scientifically analysed, along with some tissue samples he left.
He points out that when police surgeon Dr Phillips examined the body of Annie Chapman, the Ripper's second victim, he concluded that the clean removal of Annie's uterus suggested her killer had expert anatomical knowledge.
Dr Thomas Bond, who had examined Mary Kelly's body, later suggested that the serial killer was using the same knife - six inches long, pointed at the top and an inch in width - for all his murders.
"That is the knife that I held in my hand in the reading room of the National Library in Aberystwyth," insists Williams. "I am sure of it." Of course, previous Ripper investigators have been equally convinced of their theories.
And, like many of those others, Tony Williams' theory relies heavily on circumstantial evidence. There are many leaps in his reasoning but the new evidence is fascinating nonetheless. It remains to be seen whether the answer to this tantalising mystery is now within our grasp.


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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna

Post Number: 3400
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 8:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Circumstancial evidence is indeed the word.
As usual -- no evidence, only vague theory castles built on sand.

All the best
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden

The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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John V. Omlor
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Omlor

Post Number: 1369
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 8:41 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"There are now more than 20 suspects in the frame, including Queen Victoria's grandson, the Duke of Clarence; artist Walter Sickert; and James Maybrick, a Liverpool merchant."

I love that these are the three that get mentioned by name -- what with their being the three most likely and all.

This is a trio that should always be linked in our minds, indeed -- if only to teach us the value of marketing.

Delighted still with this new suspect,

--John
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris

Post Number: 1927
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 9:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

As the pages from the 1888 diary are missing I thought I'd have a look and see if there were any details in the press. Here are some of the events which Williams attended in 1888:

The Times

14 March 1888

Windsor Castle, March 12.
Her Royal Highness Princess Beatrice, Princess Henry of Battenberg, has been pleased to appoint John Williams, M.D., to be Physician Accoucheur to her Royal Highness.

30 April 1888

Univeristy Intelligence
London, April 27.
At a meeting of the Senate yesterday the following gentlemen were elected Examiners for 1888-89:-
List includes:
Obstetric Medicine - Prof. John Williams, M.D.


12 May 1888
The Levee
By command of the Queen a Levee was held yesterday afternoon at St. James's Palace by his Royal Highness the Prince of Wales on behalf of Her Majesty.
Presentations to His Royal Highness at this Court are by the Queen's pleasure considered as equivalent to presentations to Her Majesty.

Among those listed as presented:
Dr. John Williams. on appointment as Physician Accoucheur to Princess Henry of Battenberg, by the Lord Chamberlain.


9 June 1888
North London or University Hospital
A Festival Dinner in aid of the funds will be held on the Whitehall Rooms, Hotel Metropole, on the 19th June, at 7 p.m. The Right Honourable Lord Herschell in the Chair.
The following gentleman have kindly consented to act as stewards:
The list includes:
Prof. John Williams, M.D.
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg

Post Number: 1423
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 11:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi All

In regard to the surgical knife, I fail to see how the finding of a knife that had belonged to Sir John Williams is tantamount to finding the Ripper's knife. I don't believe the police surgeons were specific about the type of knife used except for describing in general terms what they thought could have been the knife used by the murderer. And of course Sir John would have such a knife -- he was an obstetric surgeon for goodness sake. As for the idea of conducting "research" to find a cure for infertility by disemboweling women on the streets of Whitechapel, is the author serious? sad

All my best

Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna

Post Number: 3401
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 11:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Beats me, Chris. I had exactly the same thoughts as yours, when reading the article.
The "evidence" seems a little vague, to put it mildly.

All the best
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden

The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Olivier P.M.G. Donni
Sergeant
Username: Olivier

Post Number: 33
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 11:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Chris,

No, the author is certainly not serious. However, his contribution may be interesting.

If William's diary is genuine (a big "if", though), it is a new source of information that may help us to understand the life of the canonical victims. In a sense, it is possible that the author's interpretation is wrong while his sources are reliable and interesting (even if they do not give us a clue for identifying JtheR). Let us hope.

All the best,
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg

Post Number: 1426
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 11:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Olivier

It sounds as if the 1888 diary is only "evidence" because it contains missing pages. How they became missing is another question. Were those pages taken out during Sir John Williams's lifetime or since his death? I may be wrong, but I wouldn't expect to find anything useful in the diary since it sounds as if the information about Sir John working at the Whitechapel Workhouse Infirmary and, probably, his case notes about treating Kate Eddowes (if by the "fourth victim" they do mean, as I assume, Eddowes) and evidence about him knowing the other victims come from different sources.

It is also interesting to note that Sir John's wife was named Mary and he had a servant named Mary ... and the contention is that he kept a mistress named Mary, whom the author is alleging was probably Mary Jane Kelly whom he set up in a house near his West End home. Why would Sir John kill Mary Jane Kelly all those years afterward ... was it separate to the claim that he was conducting research to identify a cure for infertility?

All my best

Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Olivier P.M.G. Donni
Sergeant
Username: Olivier

Post Number: 34
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 12:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Chris,

Of course, you are right: the most important pages of the diary seem to be missing. However, what are these sources that indicate that Sir John was knowing several victims? It is intriguing (even if I am very sceptical).

Olivier
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi

Post Number: 2337
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 2:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Chris S
-Well of course there has always been the possibility of a Welsh connection one way or another!!!
Am still ploughing through all this stuff...it's odd there is a family connection here too OMG sussed!

Stirling work Chris am going back to reading!!!! Get back later


Suzi
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi

Post Number: 2338
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 2:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok ploughing on...................the initial thoughts are that it's either toot or oooops we've gotcha!
The wonderful stuff from Chris in the Census are very convincing...I know the area praps thats why but come on chaps dont dismiss! Has anyone actually read this?

best Suzix
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi

Post Number: 2339
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 5:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

AT THE END OF THE DAY CHAPS............IF IT'S THERE........ NO MATTER WHAT IT IS....IT HAS TO BE READ!!!!!!!!! queueing up with Amazon!

Suzi xxx
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Clive Appleby
Sergeant
Username: Clive

Post Number: 22
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 5:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dear All,

Chris's post of 18th April (5.13pm), the quote from Margot Asquith, surely provides the corrobarative evidence (not)..

".....He was a man of heart...."

Williams obviously was JTR, took Mary kelly's heart after all and carried it around with him. You would have thought that someone at the time would have been suspicious of an eminent surgeon wandering around with a heart plonked on his head, but there you go. (Perhaps he also showed off his knife, personally autographed by each victim, just to prove for posterity that it was the real thing as opposed to any common or garden surgeon's knife that every surgeon in the Country would have possessed).

Seriously though, although it is tempting to be sceptical on the basis of the press coverage and publicity blurb, we should perhaps read it to assess the author's full "evidence" before knocking it. (Otherwise it's a bit like those who clamour that a film should be banned when they haven't even seen it).

Having read it, then let the cut and thrust of debate, debunking or defence begin in earnest !

Clive

ps Howard raised the question of will the author allow any testing of the "letters of incontrovertible evidence" (April 18th 5.36pm)?

Given the mixed views and seemingly inconclusive outcomes from document testing with The Maybrick document (plus as pointed out in earlier posts,the pages for 1888 are missing anyway, so it wouldn't mean much), I would have thought that more convincing would be DNA testing of the "mysterious medical slides with human matter on them" with the remains of victims (But of course no other surgeon in the Country would have had similar slides, so Williams must be guilty). This of course would mean disinterment. Chances of that ????

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Christopher J. Morley
Police Constable
Username: Cjmorley

Post Number: 8
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 3:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello, I have just finished reading the new Ripper title 'Uncle Jack'. Has it convinced me that John Williams was Jack the Ripper?. No, but he's a far stronger candidate than Maybrick, Sickert and a host of others, and this is an excellent book worth reading.
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Olivier P.M.G. Donni
Sergeant
Username: Olivier

Post Number: 35
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 4:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Chris(topher),

Can you say me how the author justifies that John Wiliams knew the canonical victims. Are there some new (reliable) sources of information that are exploited?

All the best,

Olivier
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Christopher J. Morley
Police Constable
Username: Cjmorley

Post Number: 9
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 12:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello Oliver, without wishing to spoil the enjoyment for anyone about to read the book, the author Tony Williams discovered that Dr. Williams, in archive papers he left at the National Library of Wales, performed an abortion on the first Ripper victim Mary Ann Nichols in 1885, and uses this as a basis for a connection between Williams and the canonical victims.
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David Knott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dknott

Post Number: 79
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 12:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Christopher,

Is it definitely 'the' Mary Ann Nichols, or just 'a' Mary Ann Nichols?

David
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ERey
Unregistered guest
Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 1:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm a bit late to this fast-moving thread, but I just wanted to say I very much agree with Christopher T. George on the similarity to Steve Hodel's bogus Black Dahlia book. They even borrowed a page out of Hodel's publicity playbook by embargoing the authors' names -- and, I presume, the book itself. I have to wonder if these people don't crib ideas from each other.

I was wondering if Mr. Williams' "found diary" would turn out to be as phony as Mr. Hodel's "found photographs", but now it seems the pertinent pages of the diary are "missing". Eh?? Gee, even Steve Hodel didn't think of that one.
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Charles Valentine
Unregistered guest
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 9:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Another might-be, could've been, virtually was, but probably just a money-spinning grab at yet another 'Final Solution' Ripper book. Why would a doctor study infertility on women well past their sell-by date? Why didn't he take Mary Kelly's womb then? Why would this sensible doctor go and chalk a message on a wall which still cant be deciphered? I am very suspicious.
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c j morley
Unregistered guest
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 4:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It is always nice to see a new Ripper title on the shelf, and I for one am looking forward to reading it, I wish the author every success.
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Sam
Unregistered guest
Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 3:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Why are you all so jealous of authors? He has probably discovered something that will contribute.

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