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Ally
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Ally
Post Number: 1014
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 3:51 pm: | 
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John,
Yes John, close reading is fun. Let's take them in order then I'll add a few of my own.
"I suppose her actually telling us who she is quoting (or paraphrasing) here is too much to ask. After all, citing sources and specific references and dealing with the words people actually write would indicate a certain level of simple responsibility and decent scholarship."
Once again: when did Caroline ever claim to be quoting or paraphrasing anyone as you claim here she did. I have asked you twice now.
I do hope Caroline will provide us with a source or citation or explanation for this, the way any respectable writer using (or creating) such a quotation would.
If she was making a generalization on a message board, why should she need to cite? Her use of "oh well" is generally recognized as a lead in to a generalization, in oh, just about every conversational situation I have ever encountered.
"If not, then I think we can safely assume no one has ever said any such thing and that she knows this and is being deliberately deceitful in attacking a position no one holds."
Once again, just because you disagree with it, doesn't mean she doesn't believe that position is an accurate one and it is hardly reflective of deceitfulness just because almighty Omlor disagrees with its veracity
"Caroline claims it represents the position of someone here, but she won't say who. Of course, that doesn't stop her from attacking this position as if it truly were someone's."
Where did she claim it represented the position of someone here?
"If one person in the discussion is simply willing to use unattributed and perhaps even totally fictional positions and quotations in their own work, then it immediately renders everything else they might write untrustworthy."
Once again, where did she ever say she was making a direct quote or providing a person or persons' position.
"If she was offering her quotation as a fair and accurate representation of the one you've just cited, then she really should be ashamed of herself.
Once again, where did she ever say she was making a direct quote.
"In any case, the only reason we have to play this stupid little guessing game is because Caroline has not been responsible enough to cite her source directly or to identify who she's talking about or to offer even a single reference for her mysterious attacks."
I hope that was a "direct" enough answer.
No it wasn't. Where did Caroline every claim that she was directly quoting a person or providing anything more than a generalization of arguments that she felt were not acceptable.
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Ally
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Ally
Post Number: 1015
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 4:06 pm: |
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And by the way, you failed to cite who you were quoting when you quoted "direct" above. Please, be more mindful of proper scholarship and citing in the future.
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John V. Omlor
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Omlor
Post Number: 1650
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 4:14 pm: |
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What the heck. I'm still bored...
My language in each case considered the possibility that she was not directly quoting a person, as I've already said and just demonstrated by citing my words from each post.
Now then, short answers.
Caroline said that we shouldn't let them "get away with," and then she offered a phrase in quotes.
So who was she talking about?
That was either a paraphrase of someone's already stated position on the boards or a quotation from someone or her version of someone's or some group's position. Right? Those are the only possibilities, unless you think she was talking about people who have never posted on these boards -- but they would have never said any such thing so that would be stupid. You and I both now know it was not a direct quotation, so that only leaves the other two possibilities.
And yes, even if she was "generalizing" on a message board about what she thought someone's position was, whether that someone was a single person or a group, she should make it plain who the hell she is talking about. Especially after being asked repeatedly. And especially if no one can find any such position anywhere on the boards.
And it is reflective of deceitfulness precisely because no one can find anything by anyone anywhere on these boards that looks remotely like what Caroline put in those quotation marks.
If you can, then I'll take back my charge of deceitfulness.
When she said "it's better than letting them get away with..." and then offered her paraphrase in quotes, it became clear that she was at least characterizing someone's position on these boards, otherwise the sentence makes no sense.
Finally, you and I long ago agreed that Caroline was not "directly quoting" anyone. I have already explained to you twice now in depth why it became clear when she came to this thread, from reading her own language, that the position she was representing was her version of RJ Palmer's. She even came here and restated this same position today.
She was talking about RJ and his position when she posted the remark in quotes on the FH boards. She was talking about RJ and his position when she said the same sort of thing here yesterday. And she was talking about RJ and his position when she said it a third time here today.
And, in each case, her version of his position looks nothing like anything he has ever written.
I'm sorry if you don't believe that. Perhaps you never will.
But that is not as important as the fact that what she wrote in those quotations marks looked nothing at all like anything either RJ or anyone else here has ever written.
That's what I want everyone to remember.
Thanks,
--John
(Message edited by omlor on August 06, 2005) |
John V. Omlor
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Omlor
Post Number: 1651
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 4:18 pm: |
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And Ally,
I wasn't quoting anyone. I was referring specifically to your "directly" in your prior post. See, if you ask, I'll tell you. Just like I'm supposed to. Just like any scholar should.
If only Caroline had done the same.
--John |
John V. Omlor
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Omlor
Post Number: 1653
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 6:16 pm: |
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Hello all,
Well, my time is up here for today.
I am, for reasons that still remain completely cloudy in my own head, about to go out on something roughly approximating a date.
[insert joke of choice here]
But before I go, I want to say something. For whatever it is worth, I enjoyed today very much. Sincerely. And not in any smug way. Please know that I like Ally a great deal. I like what she did today. I admire her and I had a great deal of fun constructing these exchanges. I respect Ally’s tenaciousness and obvious quickness of mind. She gave as good as she got, perhaps even better, it seems to me. And that made this a real pleasure for me. It was first-rate mental exercise with nothing really at stake – like repetitive weight lifting for the brain – and it was an excellent way for me to pass the day. On a sunny Saturday when I would have much rather have been on the golf course and when not being able to play would have otherwise disturbed me all day, this little joust made the morning and afternoon go by quickly for me and gave me just the distraction my poor brain needed. In between posts, I read The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn because I am preparing for the next semester (after reading our exchanges here, everyone should go right out and get a copy and read Chapter 14 for themselves – it’ll suddenly be much funnier than it already is). And before I knew it, the evening was upon me.
In the end, I made the only real point I wanted to make here plenty of times and the rest, for me, was a joyful little exercise that kept me smiling and thinking all day. I hope Ally feels at least somewhat the same. If not, I understand that.
Anyway, I know this has not been all that much fun to read, and it really wasn’t all that important after all, I guess, whatever Caroline might have been thinking when she wrote those words in those quotes. But it did give me something fun to do.
Diary World can be a very goofy place. Ally’s right, we almost never discuss the actual book here anymore. No one here thinks James wrote it and we’ve all exhausted our arguments concerning what the text tells us about when it was created. But still, it’s a good place for this sort of silliness from two people who have little or nothing better to do. And I want to thank Ally, not sarcastically at all, sincerely and honestly, for playing along and battling without let-up and without compromise. She is a noble warrior.
I must say, though, social cripple that I am, that it is far more unnerving heading out to meet someone this evening for drinks and dinner than it is to spend the day here taking the best shots Ally can throw. But that’s my problem. And I’m sure it comes as a surprise to no one here.
Anyway, I love everyone here really. I honestly do. And today I have special respect and admiration for Ally. She has played the game well.
Right. Off to face a different sort of music.
All the best,
--John
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Simon Owen
Inspector
Username: Simonowen
Post Number: 221
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 6:49 pm: |
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Was this Board something about a Diary ? |
Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 661
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 7:12 pm: |
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Simon,
No, I think the word is actually dairy and with udder contempt for the facts folks have been milking that misapprehension for months.
Okay, I'll go quietly.
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 508
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 7:13 pm: |
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Hey Simon ! Welcome back if you've been away....I don't remember seeing your name on the boards for awhile.
"Was this Board something about a Diary ?"
It was. Hopefully it will be again. Anything in particular you'd like to discuss ?
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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Ally
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Ally
Post Number: 1016
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 8:12 pm: |
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John,
You've been married before, by now you should know what a woman wants-complete, total knuckling under and bowing to her every whim. And chocolate.
If the date did not include chocolate, I am afraid you're sunk.
Hope you had a good, but not too good of a time.
P.S. Don't order spaghetti on a first date.
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Ally
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Ally
Post Number: 1017
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 8:14 pm: |
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Donald,
There is no excuse for puns. None. That was completely uncalled for.
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AAD
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 4:28 pm: |
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Thank you for that. I was under the impression that Robert bought both the rights to publish the diary and the actual volume eventually. |
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