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  | Archive through November 22, 2003 | Leanne Perry | 25 | 1 | 11-22-03 4:00 pm |
| Archive through November 26, 2003 | Robert Charles Linfo | 25 | 1 | 11-26-03 6:23 am |
| Archive through November 27, 2003 | Sarah Long | 25 | 1 | 11-27-03 12:29 pm |
| Archive through November 28, 2003 | Robert Charles Linfo | 25 | 1 | 11-28-03 1:07 pm |
| Archive through December 01, 2003 | Richard Brian Nunwee | 25 | 1 | 12-01-03 3:01 am |
| Archive through December 02, 2003 | Shannon Christopher | 25 | 1 | 12-02-03 12:32 am |
| Archive through December 03, 2003 | Richard Brian Nunwee | 25 | 1 | 12-03-03 3:44 am |
| Archive through December 04, 2003 | Sarah Long | 25 | 1 | 12-04-03 6:05 am |
| Archive through December 04, 2003 | Leanne Perry | 25 | 1 | 12-04-03 11:21 pm |
| Archive through December 05, 2003 | Shannon Christopher | 25 | 1 | 12-05-03 8:36 pm |
| Archive through December 07, 2003 | Shannon Christopher | 25 | 1 | 12-07-03 6:35 am |
| Archive through December 08, 2003 | Robert Charles Linfo | 25 | 1 | 12-08-03 5:09 pm |
| Archive through December 10, 2003 | Leanne Perry | 25 | 1 | 12-10-03 6:34 pm |
| Archive through December 15, 2003 | Robert Charles Linfo | 25 | 1 | 12-15-03 4:00 pm |
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| Author |
Message |
    
Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 291
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 6:42 am: |       |
I'm a bit lost as I haven't been on for a few days. Are we suggesting Mary stabbed someone a month before she was killed? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Sarah |
Caroline Anne Morris
Chief Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 535
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 9:57 am: | |
Hi All,
Just catching up with this extremely interesting thread!
Admission records in the annual report showed that first-class users had increased to 29,843…
So in fact, on an average day in 1888, there were over 80 first-class users of the Goulston Street Public Baths? Now there’s a figure to conjure with.
Love,
Caz
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Alexander Chisholm
Detective Sergeant
Username: Alex
Post Number: 53
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 9:16 pm: | |
Hi Sarah
I know some people believe Kelly may have gone by the name of M’Carthy (and certainly the reference to a chandler’s shop in Dorset-street in the other extract could be seen as rather coincidental) but I don’t think the above points to MJK stabbing anyone in early October.
I posted these reports as nothing more than the cases which first highlighted Montagu Williams’ concerns about common lodging-houses.
Thank you Natalie & Robert - much appreciated.
Best wishes
alex
|
Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 311
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 7:40 am: | |
Alex,
Ok, thanks for clearing that up.
Sarah |
lindsay petsont
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2004 - 6:38 pm: | |
plz plz plz plz plz can some1 tell me more about the living conditions of these poor people, plz plz plz plz? i really would apriciate it!!! |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 207
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2004 - 12:45 pm: | |
Hi Lindsay
Jack London's book 'The People of the Abyss' is available online at http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/London/Writings/PeopleOfTheAbyss/
And I would recommend the book 'East End 1888' by William J Fishman. It's a bit hard to find, but worth tracking down.
All the best
Rob
(Message edited by rclack on February 01, 2004) |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 208
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2004 - 12:54 pm: | |
Hopefully this link will work better.
http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/London/WritingsPeopleOfTheAbyss
The first chapter in Donald Rumbelow's book 'The Complete Jack the Ripper'. Chapter is called Outcast London, it is very good also.
Rob |
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 731
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 11:24 am: | |
I've been trying to find out how much Joe would have been earning during his stint as a fruit seller. Does anyone know?
Sarah |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1193
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 5:12 pm: | |
G'day Sarah,
Bruce Paley said that a casual dock labourer earned about 6s 3d per week, a sum far below the 2-3 pounds that Barnett would have been making at Billingsgate. Nor could he have raked in much more around the fruit markets.
LEANNE |
David O'Flaherty
Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 226
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 7:11 pm: | |
Hi, Leanne
A couple of weeks ago I was bugging Alex Chisholm about English currency and the cost of living back then. Alex quoted some figures to me from Outcast London: A Study in the Relationship
Between Classes in Victorian Society (Gareth Stedman Jones, 1992), a book I haven't read but which sounds extemely worthwhile. I hope Alex won't mind my quoting him, since I think many others who haven't read Jones might be interested in this:
A rough snapshot of earnings within this currency system includes, the salary of the Chief Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police was £1,500 per annum in 1888. The average wage of policemen living in St. George's-in-the-East in 1887 was 29s. 3d. per week - that is £1, 9s, 3d.
The average weekly rent of Police living in St. Georges-in-the-East was 7s. The average wage of Labourers living in St. George's-in-the-East in 1887 was 21s. 2d. per week - that is £1, 1s, 2d. The average weekly wage of Dockers living in St. George's-in-the-East in 1887 was 17s. Even Bricklayers, the top earners in the St. George's-in-the-East 1887 Wages/Rent survey, earned
on average only 31s.1d. per week - that is £1, 11s, 1d
Now I haven't read Paley's book, but can you tell me if he references where his 2-3 pounds a week figure for Barnett comes from? It seems awfully high, way above even what the average bricklayer and policeman made.
By the way, that's a nice photo of you in your profile--it's good to see what people look like!
Cheers,
Dave
(Message edited by oberlin on February 24, 2004) |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1194
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 3:12 am: | |
G'day Dave,
Thanks for the compliment! It brings you closer to the person you are communicating with if you know what they look like.
Now, Bruce Paley's research: 'Charles Booth calculated that the average casual dock labourer earned about 6s 3d per week - a sum far below the 2 to 3 pounds a week or so that Barnett had been making at Billingsgate Market.'
On another page he says of porters at Billingsgate: 'Porters were paid by the piece at varying rates, so wages varied, but a steady diligent worker could earn as much as 3 pounds a week.'
I remember looking into this on a Website about Billingsgate, and checking Charles Booth's stuff and it was pretty right. I'll look for it again and get back to you!
LEANNE |
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 735
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 4:43 am: | |
Thanks Leanne. I wonder what the rent for 13 Millers Court was.
Dave,
Thanks for posting that, it was interesting to read.
Oh, just as a point to anyone really, I was doing my college tutorial last night and I discovered that in 1996 half of the murders committed were done out of jealously or revenge of a lover or ex-lover and I thought that it may be relevant to Joe being Jack. I know those figures were in 1996 but I shouldn't have thought that back in 1888 things would have been much different.
Sarah |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1195
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 5:42 am: | |
G'day Sarah,
Barnett and Kelly had a weekly rent to pay on 13 Miller's Court of 4s6d.
And this post isn't long enough to register, so I'll add this sentence just for jolly wouldn't you?
LEANNE |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1196
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 3:50 pm: | |
G'day,
I've been searching through that Victorian London Website, and have heaps of figures. I'll keep looking for specifics.
From Henry Mayhew's 'London Labour and London the Poor', a casual dock labourer was quoted as saying: "I've worked 11 years in the dock as an extra, and it don't give more than 5 shillings in a week."
With whatever they make: 'The barrows are almost always borrowed and for these they pay 2 shillings a week.' So with whatever the street-sellers made, they also had to hire a cart and purchase the goods to fill it!
Henry Mayhew's book was published in 1851, 1861 and 1862, so I guess earnings wouldn't have improved much by the Ripper's days.
Billingsgate Fish Market was a very busy place for permanently employed people. In 1871 2,000 000 sterling was earned there annually.
I'll keep searching for a figure for orange sellers.
LEANNE |
David O'Flaherty
Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 227
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 5:42 pm: | |
Thanks, Leanne--I appreciate your looking that up. If you happen to find the Charles Booth information, can you tell me if he also quotes figures for steady workers, as well as casual ones? I'm interested if since Mr. Paley references Booth on casual wages (people only picking up work for a day or two, for example), Booth also confirms the 2-3 pounds amount Paley says Barnett made doing steady work.
There seems to be a discrepancy between the information in the Gareth Stedman Jones book (drawn from an 1887 St. Georges-in-the-East Wages/Rent survey) and what Bruce Paley wrote.
This is really just an idle question on my part, but I have an interest on wages and the cost of living back then (in a subject unrelated to Joseph Barnett), so if there's some sort of source for such a high figure, I'd certainly be interested in checking it out.
One thing I've discovered about myself as I chat and correspond with people--I need to do more reading and my library is inadequate 
Cheers,
Dave
|
Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 160
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 7:49 pm: | |
David,
Paley twice mentions a possible wage for a fish porter, but in neither instance does he give any attribution for the figure. I agree that it seems rather high, but in both instances he hedges a bit.
The first time he wrote: "a steady, diligent worker could earn as much as 3 [Pounds] per week." And the second time it is ". . . 2-3 [Pounds] or so that Barnett had been making at Billingsgate Market." Note the "as much as" and "or so."
Sounds just a bit like the come-on spam ads I get. You know "Earn up to $1,000 a week in your spare time." You could earn "up to" a $1,000 if very lucky, work 32 hours a day and are Bill Gates.
Paley does say that it was "piece work" and that the rates varied, so just maybe a hard working and lucky porter could sometimes top out at 3 Pounds. What I find less forthright was the second instance where Paley asserts the upper wage level was what Barnett had been making. There is no proof at all that Barnett had been taking home that much.
Don. |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1197
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 8:19 pm: | |
G'day Don,
here's 'The Victorian Dictionary':
http://www.victorianlondon.org/
This looks at every aspect of life in Victorian London, so to examine wages click on: 'Professions & Trades' and 'Markets'/'Billingsgate'.
Also make use of the search engine and 'ALLTHEWEB'.
LEANNE |
Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 161
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 8:53 pm: | |
Leanne,
Thanks, a truly fascinating web site (as if I don't already have a 1,001 ways to waste time on the internet). I iterate, a truly fascinating web site. Damn rule!
Don. |
Alex Chisholm
Detective Sergeant
Username: Alex
Post Number: 78
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 9:36 pm: | |
Hi Don, Leanne
As fascinating as the Victorian Dictionary site undoubtedly is, nowhere – at least nowhere I’ve come across on previous visits to the site – does it suggest that a Billingsgate porter could earn anything approaching £3 per week in 1888.
Best Wishes
alex
|
Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 162
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 10:01 pm: | |
Alex,
Quite true. I had not even gotten that far in my exploration of the site. I did notice a lot of reliance on Mayhew, and happily when I was a footloose and free-spending undergrad years ago I bought the four volume set.
Anyway, there is no mention of anyone earning that kind of money and I once more add that Paley did not offer a citation for his figure.
That weekly wage suggests between 100-150 Pounds a year and that is real money. My annotated Holmes books are in the basement and I don't want to bother my landlady by searching tonight, but I seem to recall a comment (by Doyle or the annotators) that at about the same time a gentlewoman could live quite comfortably on 100 Pounds a year.
As it is, even at 2 Pounds a week the rent would only consume about 10 percent, leaving a lot of disposable income for Mary and Joe. Alternately, with that sort of income even an ascetic would be tempted to find more comfortable digs than 13 Miller's Court.
Something seems wrong.
Don.
|
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1198
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 11:03 pm: | |
G'day,
That Website and this one were used heaps in my research, and both get heaps of praise in my book. Read the eyewitness reports of work at Billingsgate to discover what kind of place it was. Also follow the life of a fruit costermonger.
I think Paley assumes that Barnett was in a top earning position at Billingsgate, because he had been working there for at least ten years, as did his father before him, and may have been permanently employed by one of the shops.
He probably never moved far away from his work-place. And had lived in the East End all his life.
LEANNE |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1200
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 3:09 pm: | |
G'day,
I just found another eye-witness interview on that website that describes the life of those who are forced to start costermongering in their middle-ages: "The don't find a living, it's only another way of starving." That's all I'm saying here because I'll write about it in my 
LEANNE |
Alex Chisholm
Detective Sergeant
Username: Alex
Post Number: 79
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 4:17 pm: | |
Don, I have to concur with what you write above. Apart from the landlady, Sherlock Holmes and the cellar bit, that is.
Leanne, I agree that finding accommodation close to the workplace was a major concern for C19th workers. But earning £3 per week Barnett would have been able to secure far more salubrious lodgings in Whitechapel than the Millers Court room.
Picking up on Don’s point about rent as a percentage of wages, the St. George’s in the East 1887 survey, referred to by David above, listed the average amount of rent paid as a percentage of average wages for various occupations as ranging between 20.9% and 32.6%. Even allowing for the best case scenario, with the 4s 6d weekly rent for Millers Court amounting to 20.9% of Barnett’s wages, it would still leave old Joe earning only 21s 6d per week – a full £1 18s 6d short of Paley’s estimate of Barnett’s Billingsgate earnings.
Best Wishes
alex
PS The plight of costermongers received a fair amount of press coverage at the time of Whitechapel murders – not the easiest way to earn a living by any stretch of the imagination.
|
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1201
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 5:15 pm: | |
G'day Alex,
What do you reckon? Barnett and Mary Kelly lived at a few addresses prior to Miller's Court, From memory I think one was also on Dorset Street, and one they were evicted from for getting drunk instead of paying the rent.
Mary was an extravagent lady, and Joe often brought her things to patch up arguments.
LEANNE |
Alex Chisholm
Detective Sergeant
Username: Alex
Post Number: 80
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 5:30 pm: | |
Hi Leanne
I reckon it’s highly unlikely that Barnett ever earned anything like £3 per week. That’s all. 
Best wishes
alex
|
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1202
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 6:08 pm: | |
G'day Alex,
Yeah, I'd have to see proof of that. It's not mentioned in our book. Just that permanent, licensed porters would have had a more certain, secure, healthier income than costermongers.
LEANNE |
Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 163
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 8:40 pm: | |
Leanne,
Bravo! A very reasonable position to take on the question and one with which few could quarrel. Though, on these Boards I'm sure someone could be found who would argue against the sun rising in the east.
Don. |
Alex Chisholm
Detective Sergeant
Username: Alex
Post Number: 81
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 8:57 pm: | |
Now Don, I think you’ll find that the sun only appears to rise in the east.
That said, even I can't argue with Leanne's last post. 
Nice one, Leanne.
Best Wishes
alex
(Message edited by alex on February 26, 2004) |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1203
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 9:08 pm: | |
G'day,
This is what I did find on that Victorian Website, about the work of licenced fish-porters: 'Twopence per draft is paid for "shoreing" or landing the fish from the vessels.' (That was the task of the porters, who tended to carry two at a time.)
Regular "shoremen" charged fourpence a bushel of oysters, for their services.
LEANNE |
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