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Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 599
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 27, 2003 - 5:25 pm: |       |
It seems to me that nearly all the police officers had different views on who they believed to be the Ripper. There is no doubt that Abberline was an impressive inspector in may ways, but if it was his opinion that the murders had to be done by a skilled surgeon, I wouldn't give him the time of day. Not to mention the fact that he held Klosowski as a favourite suspect - which would mean that the Ripper mutilated a number of women in a very gruesome manner and then suddenly turned to a more "clean" and cowardly crime like poisoning. I would think not. These are totally different types of crimes psychologically.
So if he didn't confuse the names Kosminski and Klosowski (which I'm afraid there are no indications on that he did) I wouldn't pay that much attention to Abberline's analysis in that respect. I believe Swanson and Anderson had their reasons to believe that their "polish jew suspect" was the right man, so that violent character must have had originated from somewhere (although he couldn't have been Aaron Kosminski).
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 659
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 1:38 pm: | |
Some time I did a search in 1891 census for Kosminki and its variant spellings. Thought it might be useful to post. After this is a list of the variant spellings that I have so far traced to give some idea of the scope of the problem!
Kosminki et al 1891 census:
KOSMINKI
9 Records
48 Berners Street, St Marylebone, London
Head:
Martin Kosminki aged 47 born Carlish, Poland
Furrier
Wife:
Augusta Kosminski aged 39 born Houndsditch, London
Children:
Charles aged 18 born Marylebone, London
Furrier
Jessie aged 16 born Marylebone, London
Katie aged 14 born Marylebone, London
70 Berner Street, St George in the East, London
Head:
Maurice Kosminski aged 28 born Russian Poland
Master Baker
Wife:
Rebecca Kosminski aged 26 born Russian Poland
Children:
Israel aged 7 born St Georges East
Betsy aged 1 born St Georges East
KOSMINSKY
No Records
KOZMINSKI
5 records
1 Stafford Street, St Marylebone, London
Head:
George Kozminski aged 31 born Poland
Hairdresser
Widowed
Children:
Annie aged 7 born Poland
8 Upper Baker Street, St Marylebone, London
Head:
Daniel Kozminski aged 39 born Poland
Hairdresser
Wife:
Rosey Kozminski aged 38 born Poland
Children:
Bessie aged 11 boen London
KOZMINSKY
No records
Variants from Jewishgen.org:
KIZMINSKA
KUZMINSKI
KOZMANSKI
KAZJMANSKI
KOZMINSKI
KOZMINSKA
KOZMINCKA
KOZMINSKIWICZ
KOZMYNSKI
KOZOMINSKA
KUSZMINSKI
KISZMIANSKI
KRZYMIANSKI
KRZEMIENSKI
KRZEMINSKI
KUZMINSKA
KOCHMANSKI
KOCHMANSKA
KOCHMANSKI
KOSZMINZKA
KOSNINSKI
KUZMINCSKI
KUZIEMINCKI
KOZMINSKIJ
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Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 660
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 4:20 pm: | |
I have managed to trace some more Kosminki entries from the 1891 census. I had missed these before because they were incorrectly transcribed in the index so a search under Kosminski did not show them. I have given both the incorrect spelling shown in the index and the correct spelling from the original data:
KOSMINCKI (actually spent Kosminski in original census return)
3 Records
11 Aberdeen Terrace, Islington, London
Head:
Samuel Kosminski aged 32 born Germany
Furrier
Wife:
Margaret Kosminski aged 22 born Germany
Child:
Max Kosminski aged 1 born Islington, London
KOSOMINSKI
2 RECORDS
69 Gt. Garden Street, Mile End New Town, London
Head:
Marks Kosominski aged 34 born Russian Poland
Boot maker
Wife:
Yetta Kosominski aged 26 born Russian Poland
KOSONINSHIE (actually spelt Kosminski in census return)
27 Langdale Street, St George in the East, London
Head:
Joseph Kosminski aged 36 born in Russian Poland
Tailor
Wife:
Sarah Kosminski aged 30 born in Russian Poland
Other:
Boarder:
Davis Finchuller aged 20 born in Russian Poland
Tailor
Sister in Law:
Fanny Cohen aged 19 born in Russian Poland
Children:
Nelly aged 7 born St. Georges East, London
Lewis aged 6 born St Georges East, London
Morris aged 3 born St georges East, London
Abraham aged 11 months born St Georges East, London
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Erin Sigler
Sergeant
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 49
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 7:06 pm: | |
Chris, I think the "Martin Kosminki" of Berner Street mentioned in your first post may be the "Martin Kosminski" sponsored for citizenship by Joseph Levy. He seems to match up with the details listed in the A-Z.
The "Kosminckis" you mentioned caught my attention because of their address. Is "Aberdeen Terrace, Islington" near "Aberdeen Place, St. John's Wood?" Just to refresh your memory, Abberline incorrectly reported suspect John Sanders's (one of the three "insane medical students") address as "20 Aberdeen Place" instead of 20 Abercorn Place, where he actually lived. Interesting coincidence.
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Scott Nelson
Sergeant
Username: Snelson
Post Number: 41
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2003 - 10:25 am: | |
Samuel was the younger brother of Martin Kosminski. The ages reported are almost never consistent when reviewing the various 10-yr. census returns. In addition, the 1891 returns and directories show a Simon Kosminski at 170 Aldersgate, City of London, Isaacs Kozminskie at 79 Brusnswick Buildings, Goulston Street, Abraham Kosminski at 47 Langdale Street, St. George in the East and Philip Koshminski, 21 Gun Street, Artillery Lane (around the corner from Dorset St) |
Saddam
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 12:37 pm: | |
"...I believe Swanson and Anderson had their reasons to believe that their "polish jew suspect" was the right man, so that violent character must have had originated from somewhere..."
>>Once again, the historian's conceit. Where is the evidence?
Saddam
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CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2003 - 3:04 am: | |
Thanks for your post. I was not sugesting that chapman was jtr. I know that many people believe that a killer doese not change his methods of murder. However Abberline said in the Pall Mall Gazette the 31st of March that he believed Chapman was working on a commission to obtain the organs. I know that sounds far fetched but that would explain chapmans change in methods of murder. I was pointing out that Abberline did not believe the ripper was commited our dead. We Must keep in mind that we are not privy to all the information that Abberline knew. I am not sure because i have just started on the case but kozminski came about because of a witness Isreal Shwartz who stated he saw kozminski fighting with Liz Stride before she was found dead? That would have been enough to convince Swanson an Anderson of his guilt if they believed Stride was a ripper victim. Keep up the good research. I learn something new everyday from reading the boards. Take Care CB |
Saddam
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, October 27, 2003 - 4:13 pm: | |
Abberline knew who Chapman was. He knew his history of partner-murder, knew he had been in America, etc. There is no evidence of him basing his opinion of Chapman on anything beyond known police work involving Chapman. If you want to say he got Kosminski and Chapman confused, please show us concretely how you think this happened. Otherwise, all you are doing is repeating rumors, and that sort of thing has bogged Ripperology down to Von Deimen's Land for a century.
Saddam
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Robert W. House
Sergeant
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 23
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 01, 2003 - 10:43 pm: | |
"..somebody in Scotland Yard heard from a City police source that 'the 23-year-old Whitechapel Polish Jew who went to Colney Hatch' was 'really' called Kosminski, passing the information on so that it reached Macnaghten and Swanson"
This line appears on the last page of M. Fido's book "The Crimes, Death and Detection of Jack the Ripper". This line would seems to suggest that the suspect who was identified had previously been known by some name other than Kosminski, and that the police acknowledged the mixup. Am I reading this correctly? Can someone please clarify this line for me.
What I am really interested in is what is the source for this piece of information? If this was a valid piece of evidence, it would seem to support the mixed-up names idea. Unless I am reading into this incorrectly.
Somebody, help....
Rob |
R.J. Palmer
Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 198
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 12:31 am: | |
Hi. It's a reference to David Cohen.
What I think Mr. Fido is saying is that at some point in the early 1890s, someone at the City police acknowledged that the suspect 'Cohen' was really named K-something-ski (ie., David Cohen was really named Nathan Kaminsky).
On hearing this, Swanson and/or Macnaghten jumped to the erroneous conclusion that he was referring to Kosminski (ie., Aaron Kosminski) another Jewish suspect who was also confined in an asylum.
In other words, the real suspect identified by Lawende as the Ripper was Nathan Kaminsky (according to the theory) but his name inadvertantly goes down in history as Kosminski by Swanson & Macnaghten (because of the mix-up).
So...if you follow.... the City PC source is not in the case evidence per se, but is 'implied'... a theoretical existance based on the inconsistancies of the various primary sources...ie., it's an attempt to reconcile them.
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Robert W. House
Sergeant
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 24
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 10:31 am: | |
RJ
I realized that that was the implied situation, but I think I just read this passage wrong.... it is now clear to me that this whole paragraph is Mr. Fido's speculation of what might have happened.
It was an interesting book... it is amazing how much confusion there is that derives from these snippets of statements by Swanson and Anderson. I am sure there is no known description of Cohen (or a photo) but his age seems a little young (23).
Thanks.
Rob House |
Harry Mann
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 3:27 am: | |
Glen,of course Anderson and Swanson should have known who was commited to asylums soon after the killings appeared to have ceased.Those places would have been checked.That in itself is of little value,if it is the only information against them,which appears to be the case.
"Not in the public interest to disclose...",seems a weak excuse on Anderson's part.
One might just as well look for a death at that time,and infer the same involvement.I'm sure there would have been some male deceased during the winter of 1888. |
Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 629
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 7:39 pm: | |
Saddam,
">>Once again, the historian's conceit. Where is the evidence?"
There is none. It's just a theory - among others. Sorry to dissapoint you...
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
John Fogarty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Goryboy
Post Number: 63
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 3:26 pm: | |
RJ wrote:
It's a reference to David Cohen.
What I think Mr. Fido is saying is that at some point in the early 1890s, someone at the City police acknowledged that the suspect 'Cohen' was really named K-something-ski (ie., David Cohen was really named Nathan Kaminsky).
On hearing this, Swanson and/or Macnaghten jumped to the erroneous conclusion that he was referring to Kosminski (ie., Aaron Kosminski) another Jewish suspect who was also confined in an asylum.
In other words, the real suspect identified by Lawende as the Ripper was Nathan Kaminsky (according to the theory) but his name inadvertantly goes down in history as Kosminski by Swanson & Macnaghten (because of the mix-up).
Correctimundo. And this mix-up between Kaminsky (Cohen) and Kosminski is further bolstered by Swanson's marginalia claim that the suspect had died shortly after committal to the Hatch. Cohen/Kaminsky did indeed die the following October, while Aaron Kosminski lived until 1919.
Further, only Kaminsky/Cohen displayed any real violence, while the hapless Kosminski seemed far too detached and involved with imaginary friends to be anything like violent enough to be JTR.
Thus, if we are to take the "Polish Jew" suspect (whose name ended in -ski or -sky) seriously, it can only be Kaminsky--not the 23-year-old, hallucinatory, filthy, out-of-work, mumbling Kosminski. I still believe further research into Kaminsky/Cohen to be among the most promising lines we can take, though, being situated in the armpit of America, such research is dashed difficult on this end.
(Message edited by goryboy on November 03, 2003)
Cheers,
John e-Rotten
(a.k.a., Goryboy) |
R.J. Palmer
Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 200
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 8:36 am: | |
John--The trouble is, though, was Cohen really Kaminsky? Cohen's name is listed as Aaron Davis Cohen, and then, at the workhouse as David Cohen. The term for a Jewish 'John Doe' is said to be 'Cohen.' But we aren't given the name Cohen; we are given a full name: Aaron Davis Cohen. Question. Is calling someone James Allen Doe likely to be the same as calling them 'John Doe'? Has anyone really done a study, and come up with examples of the British, circa 1880s using the term 'Cohen' to refer to an unknown Jew? Questions to consider. All the best. RJP |
Saddam
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 9:21 pm: | |
Point to ponder, joy in the jello, fish in the foofram:
Whence the report that K-something-sky had died?
Saddam
|
R.J. Palmer
Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 202
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 11:17 pm: | |
It is my contention that Anderson's "solution" to the case was politically and personally motivated. His "solution" always goes hand in hand with a certain amount of belly-aching about the British system of police work. Anderson had a motive for claiming what he claimed; the funding for his extracurricular activities had been cut by the Home Office in the past. RP |
Saddam
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 2:36 pm: | |
1. The apellation Aaron Davis Cohen may include confusion with Aaron Kosminski, mutatis mutandis.
2. "...the funding for his extracurricular activities had been cut by the Home Office in the past." >>Anderson I don't believe could be said to have had extracuricular activities. Based on his autobiography, he saw himself as being empowered as a kind of principal of the realm to go ahead and confidentially network with whomever he wanted, picking up any sort of information about anyone that might be available, and then to use his authority to make unreported side deals with witnesses, criminals, other officials, etc. He was a consummate behind-the-scenes guy, a trader deluxe, and didn't need to get special funding for anything "extracuricular" I don't believe. It was all the curiculum of the realm and the curiculum of his life, as he saw it. Please show us where he experienced a funding cut for his "extracuricular activities."
Saddam
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Gary Alan Weatherhead
Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 372
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 4:05 pm: | |
Hi Saddam
I didn't realize Anderson was a "consumate behind-the-scenes, trader dueluxe" I thought all cops made behind the scenes deals, traded information, made unreported side deals and all the rest. Even with all this wheeling and dealing, Anderson still did not solve the mystery of JTR. I realize he says he knew the identity of the killer but refused to disclose it because of the traditions of his department and all. I just don't buy his excuses for failing to name the killer.
Perhaps he figured it out while he was on his extended vacation through some long distance wheeling and dealing. Unfortunately the Whitechapel prostitutes were being slaughtered during this period and on top of that you had the Torso muders taking place.
I would hardly expect his autobiography to state that he didn't really have any better idea as to who the killer was than any of the other authorities at the time.
All The Best
Gary |
R.J. Palmer
Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 203
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 6:45 pm: | |
Dearest Saddam--As research is entirely superfluous to "solving the case," I can't imagine there is any pressing need for me to elaborate about Anderson's funding. But what the hell. The rug was pulled out from under him on more than one occasion. In his early days, every time the Irish went for more than twelve months without throwing a stick of dynamite under a bridge, Anderson was faced with the axe. His whole career was one of justifying his views of police work. He wrote three books on the theme.
I have no overall dispute with your view of the Master. A "trader delux" works. Yet, if you think the Home Office & the Powers that Be wrote Anderson a blank check you are mistaken. As Mick Jagger once said "When the curtain goes up, you have to produce." RP
P.S. I believe the word is curricular. 'Cur' is a certain low-class dog. |
Alan Sharp
Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 151
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 6:54 pm: | |
I am not sure because i have just started on the case but kozminski came about because of a witness Isreal Shwartz who stated he saw kozminski fighting with Liz Stride before she was found dead?
CB, that's a theory put forward in Ivor Edwards book. Schwartz saw someone throw Stride to the ground, and Edwards uses the whole Anderson/Swanson thing to say that it was Kosminski and that Schwartz identified him at the seaside home but that the Ripper himself, Donston in this case, was the other man on the scene, the pipe smoking man. Like so many of the theories in Edwards book he really does not back it up with any evidence whatsoever.
ps. Ooh, I've just been promoted to Inspector. Yay me!  |
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 2:43 am: | |
Thanks for your reply Alan and congradulations on your promotion to Inspector. CB. |
Neale Carter
Sergeant
Username: Ncarter
Post Number: 31
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 9:05 pm: | |
Glenn,
Re. your comments above (October 27) that any analysis by Abberline can be discounted as he considered Klosowski as JtR; do you maintain that it is impossible for an offender to change mode from ripping to poisoning based soley on, say profiling? I'm aware this argument is raging on other threads but I couldn't let this one pass by.
Although profiling certainly has a place amongst traditional investigative techniques, it too imprecise to use to eliminate a suspect per se. I agree it is unlikely that an offenders pattern of murder will de-escalate from the extreme violence of the ripper crimes to anything else but these crimes are so rare and the data for unsolved apparently serial murders is obviously absent we need to be careful in applying such techniques.
I contend that in this example profiling can tell us "it is unusual for violent offenders to move to a passive method such as poison" which suggests examining Abbeline's suspect for evidence of innocence is as far as we can go.
Regards
Neale |
Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 663
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 10:47 pm: | |
Hi Neale,
I think it would be a slight exaggeration to say, that I would discount any analysis that Abberline performed because of the Klosowski theory, but I admit that I think his reasoning is quite puzzling regarding this.
Well, it is of course true that profilers in general -- but also criminal detectives from the police force -- considers the chance for this scenario to be quite slim, if not microscopic.
But it is merely my own common sense that tells me that this is highly unlikely. There are of course examples of serial killers changing thier MO, but such a transformation from frenzied butchering attacks to more coldly, cowardly methods as poisoning I find rather uncomprehensible. There is simply no logic to it, and I believe most people with experience from law enforcement are of the same opinion, it is no invention of either criminal profilers or myself.
Not many contemporary sources supported Abberline's theories, and some newspapers widely critzised him for accepting such discrepancies in murder methods (while, of course, some agreed with him). And I believe they were right. I think such a transormation is very much unlikely; poisoning and savage murder by mutilation are not the same type of murders psychologically, and there are also several other differences: a poisoner has in most cases a distinct motive for the crime, something which is not that appearent in the Ripper murders.
I don't get everything I base my opinion of from criminal profiling; I started studying crimes quite many years ago, but profiling is something that hasn't really caught my attention until a few years back. But it is true that I find the approach interesting, altough not water-proof. However, I do not want to turn this thread into another "profiling" one. That subject has invaded too many threads already.
The fact that Abberline believed the murders to be performed by a skilled surgeon is a a bit more difficult to determine, but the Klosowski thing I think is quite elementary, regardless of profiling, and added together with the "surgeon" opinion, I can't help but admit that these "analyses" nags my confidence in him quite a bit. Nothing can undermine the fact, though, that the Russian wife-poisoner belonged to the lowest scums of the Earth. But Jack the Ripper he was not, and I am not the only one to dismiss Klosowski for reasons above.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Saddam
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 1:28 pm: | |
"...Abberline believed the murders to be performed by a skilled surgeon..."
>>Surgeon, schmurgeon. The reason why Ripperologists think in terms of medical skill is because they don't want to bother themselves to think about why someone would want to think of himself as a surgeon under those circumstances. "Is medical skill evident or not?" is a question that demeans the case evidence. Don't let Abberline lead you over a cliff.
Saddam
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Neale Carter
Sergeant
Username: Ncarter
Post Number: 34
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 8:51 pm: | |
Glenn,
Exaggerating elements of anothers argument and then attacking the exaggeration is one of the oldest tricks in the book for which I humbly apologise
Thanks for your elucidation with which I now agree entirely. Except for always considering the unlikely explanation (which I'm sure you do anyway) in light of the failure to id and catch our man.
Regards
Neale |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1300
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 03, 2004 - 9:57 am: | |
Earlier in this thread there were comments about the Lubnowski/Cohen name change in Matilda Kosminki's branch of the family. The last glimpse we get of them in the census data is 1901 (details are listed elsewhere) when they are listed under the name of Lubnowski. However, Samuel, the son of Matilda and Morris Lubnowski, was declared bankrupt in 1938 and the court notice shows clearly that the use of both names persisted that late:
The entry states: "Lubnowski, S (described in Receiving Order as S. Cohen)"
If Samuel's age of 14 shown in 1901 census is correct, he would have been circa 51 at the time of his bankruptcy. Unfortunately the notice gives no indication of the nature of his business. The page of court notices is from The Times of 26 October 1938 and is headed "Law Notices October 26":
 |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 218
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 03, 2004 - 8:36 pm: | |
Hi Chris,
Further details of this bankruptcy case should be available in the "London Gazette", although I don't know if it will give the brankrupt's age.
Bes Regards
John Savage |
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