| Author |
Message |
    
Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 314
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 5:16 am: | 
|
Good post, Glenn!
(although, not surprisingly, I do not agree with all your conclusions)
And yet there is one more point that should be taken into consideration.
Dr Bond, (no, not James, Thomas) was in fact using available forensics at the time to come to the conclusion that "All five murders were no doubt committed by the same hand".
Now, even I (  ) must call for caution about such a statement, but surely the police thus had expert opinion to support a Ripper theory.
They may possibly (I said possibly!) have been wrong, but they did not just wing it!
(Oh, by the way: God bedring!)
Helge
(Message edited by helge on September 22, 2005)
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
|
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2147
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 11:46 am: |
|
Hi Glenn,
I wrote:
And yet there was at least one report that MJK's murder was being considered as possibly the work of someone other than Jack...
Now maybe this was total press invention, or maybe they were implying that the police were considering it when in reality it was just the newspaper staff doing so.
But maybe the conclusion was arrived at on the strength of Barnett's lengthy questioning, for example, or something even more concrete - I don't know.
But then neither do you. So when you wrote:
As for Kelly...we must not forget, that it was a press statement vaguely pointing at the possibility that Kelly's murder may not have been the Ripper's work, but this was apparently not the view of the police,
you were speculating, you naughty boy.
Hi Phil,
I don't know where you get your absolutes from.
I question the Kidney-or A N Other-killed-Stride scenario because I'm far from 100% convinced that Jack didn't do it. Ok?
So think of me as 70/30 for Jack being the killer (and quite frankly, some of the arguments I've heard against Jack work better for - tempting me to up it to 80/20). And for argument's sake, if Jack were ruled out, I would be 70/30 for Kidney as killer, simply because he's all we've got - and that's the problem in a nutshell.
Prostitutes are vulnerable to attack from everyone they encounter, not just ex lovers or active, throat-cutting serial killers.
Love,
Caz
X |
c.d.
Police Constable
Username: Cd
Post Number: 9
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 4:23 pm: |
|
I don't believe that Kidney was Stride's killer although I am willing to keep an open mind and consider all possibilities. My problem rests with the cachous found in Liz's hand. To me, they indicate that she was caught off guard and not expecting an attack. It is certainly possible that Kidney worked himself into a drunken rage beforehand and that he simply killed her within moments of meeting her on the street, but I just can't see him concealing his anger to that extent. A drunken Kidney would be a clear danger signal to Liz. I would also expect any attack from him to come after a heated argument and some hitting. Knowing Kidney's temper and their past history together, I would expect her to be preparing to flee or getting ready to dodge a blow. I don't think freshening her breath would be foremost in her mind.
c.d. |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4073
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 5:11 pm: |
|
Caz,
"Now maybe this was total press invention, or maybe they were implying that the police were considering it when in reality it was just the newspaper staff doing so."
Which is exactly what I believe. I never said it was a police report (of course, I should have written 'account' instead of 'report').
As for the length of Barnett's interview, we only have his own words about the alleged four hours, unless I am mistaken.
All the best
G. Andersson, writer/historian
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2592
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 5:13 pm: |
|
CD
I just produced two cases where what you don't expect to happen, did.
No argument, no hitting, just a knife straight to the throat.
What do you think?
That Stride saw Kidney approaching so decided to freshen her breath?
Or that she was using the cachous to freshen her breath for the man she was already with?
|
c.d.
Police Constable
Username: Cd
Post Number: 10
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 5:37 pm: |
|
AP,
I did acknowledge in my post that Kidney could have stuck a knife in her within moments of seeing her. It is certainly possible (and your cases confirm this) that he was whistling a song as he approached her with a big smile on his face and said "Hey Liz, what a pleasant surprise seeing you here. My you look....." and then did her in. All I can say is that from what we know about him, he preferred to use his fists with her. Of course, that could have changed on the spot.
I'm not sure about freshening her breath for him. It might have been a practice reserved for customers and it might not have occurred to her to do so. I don't know how strong they were, but she might have realized that if Kidney smelled them on her breath, he might have immediately suspected that she was meeting another man and not a customer.
I am not sure that what you mean by her using the cachous to freshen her breath for the man she was already with. Are you referring to Mr. B.S.? If so, wouldn't enough time have passed that she would have put them back in her pocket?
c.d.
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2594
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 5:57 pm: |
|
Thanks CD
as I've already said a long time ago, I believe it was the habit to carry the cachous in the hand anyway.
You seem to believe from your post that Stride was a working prostitute at the time of her death?
I think not.
I think she left Kidney to get away from whoring.
Hence she died.
But hey, you might be right.
No worries. |
c.d.
Sergeant
Username: Cd
Post Number: 11
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 9:21 pm: |
|
AP,
Even if it was the habit to carry the cachous in the hand, wouldn't they get in the way when the prostitute was "getting down to business?"
I was not aware that there was uncertainty as to whether Liz was whoring. I just naturally assumed that she was. What makes you think that she was trying to get away from the profession?
If we assume that Kidney was Liz's killer,I think it is reasonable to believe that there was some kind of friction between them at the time of her death. If I were in her shoes and saw Kidney coming down the street at this time, I think it would give me a very bad feeling that something was about to happen. I think I would start to move towards a place where other people would be such as the nearest pub (or was it so late that the street was deserted?). I don't think I would want to face him alone.
I also wonder if Liz had any close women friends in whom she would have confided as to her rough treatment by Kidney. Would they have had any desire to come forward and give that information to the police?
And hey AP, you might be right. Thanks for your response.
c.d. |
Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 529
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 1:23 pm: |
|
"You seem to believe from your post that Stride was a working prostitute at the time of her death?
I think not. "
Hey A.P., a question for you, then. What do you think the comment "You would say anything except your prayers" would mean, if not spoken by a john to a prostitute ?
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2598
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 1:32 pm: |
|
Well, Sir Robert, it could mean something like this:
'The Times. September 28th 1888.
'Ever said your prayers?' asked John Allinson of his wife when he set about her with a chopper in a Pimlico street, and continued chopping her until his chopper broke.' |
Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 530
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 5:07 pm: |
|
A.P. of course you may be on to something, but I have to say prima facie that "You would say anything except your prayers" sounds exactly like a witticism said to a whore by an avenging angel...
Or demon.
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2601
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 5:54 pm: |
|
And I would agree with you, Sir Robert.
I intend to stretch this a bit, and see what comes up.
But I tend to think you are right. |
Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 532
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 6:22 pm: |
|
Please stretch away, A.P. It may lead somewhere.
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2605
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 1:32 pm: |
|
Here a couple, Sir Robert.
March 26th 1889.
John Jefferson of Lambeth told his wife to kneel down and ‘say her prayers as she had not long to live’ and then proceeded to beat her almost to death with a pair of heavy metal tongs.
Now the next one I like.
June/July 1889.
Dr. Percy Chatterson battered his wife soundly and then ordered his 15 year-old daughter to ‘kneel down and say her prayers for she had only five minutes to live’, while sharpening a large knife with which ‘he would rip her up saying “Jack the Ripper” would be nothing to it.’
Luckily she survived. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5094
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 3:22 pm: |
|
There are all kinds of Ripper echoes here.
FEB 9th 1891
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2608
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 5:50 pm: |
|
That's a peach, Robert.
Have you looked 10 years up the road to see if he was stabbing women in their stays? |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5096
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 6:29 pm: |
|
Thanks for jogging me, AP. This one, Nov 29th 1894, isn't necessarily him, but has a certain Kelleyesque quality.
Robert |
Steve Swift
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 7:36 pm: |
|
To me, they indicate that she was caught off guard and not expecting an attack.
and I'd agree 100% My immediate problem with the cachous is that, according to Schwarz,she had already been knocked down once, and yet when she's found dead she STILL has these in her hand?
You seem to believe from your post that Stride was a working prostitute at the time of her death?
I think not.
I think she left Kidney to get away from whoring.
Sorry AP but this does not fit with the number of men Stride was seen with before her death,all the indications were that she was soliciting.
If we were talking about Kate Eddowes here I could agree with this wish to 'escape' prostitution but that does not really fit with Liz Stride. Alone among the victims (with the possible exception of Kelly) Liz seems to have been a hard bitten prostitute and had been one from at least the age of 22,Nichols,Chapman & Eddowes drifted into the life out of need.
This escape into a 'romance' sounds a bit too 'Victorian melodrama' to be true.It is important, I think, at this late stage that we do not turn men like Kidney & Barnett into something that they more than likely were not.
Many of these men knew their women were prostitutes and many were little more than protectors who got 'favours'.To put it bluntly I think Barnett was lying through his teeth about the reason he & Kelly had argued and split up and Kidney sounds like a man trying to hang onto his property rather than his 'love'.
Kidney comes across as what he probably was,a drunken bully who had lost his extra income. Barnett the same,he has been unemployed for weeks and yet he still has money to stay at Bullers after he splits from Kelly, where they are in trouble for not paying the rent because he lost his job!On his visits to Kelly Barnett was more likely to have been collecting money rather than dropping it off.
|
Steve Swift
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 7:05 pm: |
|
"You would say anything except your prayers" means 'you are not telling the truth'. |
Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 536
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 10:19 pm: |
|
""You would say anything except your prayers" means 'you are not telling the truth'."
What ? The expression is open to interpretation, but that's just plain wrong.
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
|
c.d.
Sergeant
Username: Cd
Post Number: 13
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 10:42 pm: |
|
Sir Robert,
I have to agree with Steve on this one. I think he is exactly right in his interpretation of that statement. While I agree that its meaning is debatable, I really think any other interpretation would run a distant second.
c.d. |
Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 920
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 10:52 pm: |
|
Hi Robert,
What exactly is wrong with that interpretation? It's a figure of speech, and that's the fairly obvious meaning of it. Perhaps it doesn't fit in with various dramatic theories, but it's a pretty innocent phrase.
See the thread where the phrase itself is discussed:
"You would say anything but your prayers"
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
|
Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 537
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 02, 2005 - 12:11 am: |
|
"that's the fairly obvious meaning of it."
I have to say, I've never heard it remotely interpreted that way..The obvious meaning is : "You'd say anything, except your prayers."
What's so obscure about it ? And it if it were complex or odd, the context in which was said makes it pretty darned clear.
Since when are prayers and truth synonyms ?
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
|
Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 922
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, October 02, 2005 - 2:07 am: |
|
Hi Robert,
It's not obscure or complicated. Even today if you say of someone that he or she "would say anything" it means that he or she doesn't feel bound by sticking to the truth. The end part of it is a joke, a verbal twist on something else someone would "say".
"Timsta" on an old post found the same basic phrase used in a 19th century novel that predated the Ripper murders by several decades. The first chapter of The Poacher by Captain Frederick Marryat has one man accuse his drunken friend of lying by saying:
“Friend Byres, it’s my opinion you’ll say anything but your prayers; but in your present state I overlook it."
The site at Timsta's old link is down, but I found the novel online elsewhere. See The Poacher by Captain Marryat - Chapter I for yourself.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
Profile Email Dissertations Website
|
Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 538
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 02, 2005 - 10:00 am: |
|
"Even today if you say of someone that he or she "would say anything" it means that he or she doesn't feel bound by sticking to the truth. The end part of it is a joke, a verbal twist on something else someone would "say". "
Ahhh...now I see where the conflict arises from. No question that "you would say anything" means you're saying the person in question is inclined to prevaricate. Also no question that "but your prayers" is a witticism.
However, taken together and in the context where the sentence was uttered, I think it comes across as far more sinister than merely accusing someone of not telling the truth.
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2610
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 02, 2005 - 1:55 pm: |
|
Although I can't argue with the above posts, after trawling through hundreds of Old Bailey trials I have the distinct feeling that the expression was used as a threat or warning.
In the LVP the good folk of Whitechapel would drag themselves out of bed to make morning prayers at six o'clock, and it strikes me that the implication was that this person would not be at morning prayers the next day. |
Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 407
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 02, 2005 - 3:13 pm: |
|
Hi all,
Honestly, I don't understand the fuss about this one.
The meaning of the phrase is quite clear, it is used, not as a threat, but implying that the other person would say anything (i.e. lying) for some reason or another. Not necessarily implying any malice or ill will.
"You would say anything for your purposes", is another way of putting it. The purposes may differ. But let us analyze what could be the case here:
"11:45 PM: William Marshall, a laborer, sees her on Berner Street. He is standing in the doorway of 64 Berner Street on the west side of the street between Fairclough and Boyd Streets. He notices her talking to a man in a short black cutaway coat and sailor's hat outside number 63. They are kissing and carrying on. He hears the man say "You would say anything but your prayers." (quoted from Casebook)
Ok, they were "carrying on". Not a menacing situation. No reason to suspect any threat involved.
Most likely Stride was giving the man some compliment or whatever, and the man knew she was really only acting for money. "You would say anything but your prayers". Furtermore the phrase was spoken mildly, with an English accent, and in an educated manner.
It has nothing in common with "Say your last prayers", or anything of the kind. Neither in circumstances or intent, IMO.
Was it nevertheless the words of the killer? Well, anything is possible in Ripper-land, but not necessarily likely.
This happened 11.45. Schwartz witnessed the attack on Stride approximately 12.40. What is the connection?
Well, Maybe Jack was indeed just warming up for the kill an hour later, and the phrase had a double meaning unbeknown to Stride.
It would surprise me if that was the case, though.
Helge
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
|
Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 110
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 02, 2005 - 8:43 pm: |
|
The sentence means: "You're full of sh*t. There really doesn't seem to be anything else that's viable imho.
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
|
c.d.
Sergeant
Username: Cd
Post Number: 14
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 11:28 am: |
|
I think the phrase was used innocently in the context of sexual banter. Maybe the response was elicited by Liz jokingly saying something like "you know you're my favorite cutomer" or something to that effect.
c.d. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2617
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 3:45 pm: |
|
Actually folks, from 'Legal Life and Humour' by Joseph Heighton, published 1914.
'The police will say anything except their prayers,' said a witness at Willesden, and there are times when they depart a little from the actual truth.' |
Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 541
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 5:27 pm: |
|
Lemme ask you this then, A.P. : Putting aside the political football of whether Stride was a Ripper victim, can we make any assertions that the person uttering "You would say anything but your prayers" might have had at least a little book learning ?
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2620
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 5:54 pm: |
|
I'll check the book learning of the Willesden witness reference I found.
|
Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 542
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 6:31 pm: |
|
I'm sure you see where I'm heading with this, A.P. Is it the sort of thing a commoner would have uttered ?
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
|
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2162
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 07, 2005 - 6:06 am: |
|
Hi Sir Robert,
It sounds to me like it would have been a fairly common expression, not confined to the educated.
And I too can imagine Liz falsely flattering a potential customer, and the man brushing it aside with the "you [being what you are] would say anything but your prayers" comment, meaning that nothing honest is likely to come from the lips of someone in her profession and he's not fooled for a moment.
Hi AP,
I think she left Kidney to get away from whoring.
She was a prostitute before she met Kidney. She probably got fed up sharing her income with a shiftless bully. And she seems to have had an independent streak.
And what was she doing at half past midnight, on her own outside a men's club, before broadshoulders pulled her about, if she was busy getting away from whoring? Funny time of night to be waiting for a new beau to turn up for a date.
Love,
Caz
X |
Closed: New threads not accepted on this page