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Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 523
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 11:20 pm: | 
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Hey Julie ! I value your contributions. I think having a name to put behind a screen name helps with dialogue. I remember getting flak over mine until I explained that Robert Anderson was, indeed, my name !
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 741
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 2:00 am: |
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A thought raised by some recent posts in this thread:
Do we gain anything by working backwards?
We know MJD's body was found in the river? How did it get there?
Suicide by drowning?
Murder?
If suicide - did he go with the intention of drowning himself, or did something happen that day?
If murder why and by whom?
Something clearly had happened in the life of this barrister/teacher that was of dramatic force.
Was he suffering mental illness?
Had he done something bad?
Were these two possibilities connected (ie mental unbalance causes him to do "wrong")?
We know he had recently been sacked?
Was this related to his actions?
His mental state?
Both?
Where in his life do we look for clues that might help us dig deeper into this puzzle?
Anyone else like to help me follow this trail?
Phil |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 975
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 12:39 pm: |
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Phil,
You are essentially correct in suggesting that we work backwards in Druitt's life. We begin with his inquest. From this account we get the information that he was a barrister and assistant schoolmaster at Blackheath and that he had recently been sacked from the latter. We also find that he left a "suicide note" that was probably written the Friday night/Saturday morning before his death. From this information and the rail pass and ticket found on him, we can trace his travel from Blackheath to Hammersmith on December 1. Looking backwards, we are able to trace Druitt's appearances remarkably well: court appearances, cricket matches, visit to brother at Bournmouth. This brings us back to August 1888. Then we explore his family history of mental illness -- which also sends us to a future event in his mother's death. Then we continue working our way backward to Druitt's youth. in fact, all of this is what Leightonn's book does very well. It gives us a more complete picture of nearly any major suspect (with the exception, I suppose, of Prince Eddy, if you consider him a major suspect).
Andy S. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2358
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 4:00 pm: |
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Hi All,
Have just got back to London and found my book ,"Hammersmith and Shepherds Bush Past" from a Historical Publications series.
Just thought I would post a few snippets from it showing the sort of place it seemed to be in 1888.
First there is the interesting link with Whitechapel by way of William Morris who had his headquarters on a house very near the river ,to which some of the speakers from the Berner Street Club and Hanbury Street Hall paid regular visits.[Viz the likes of George Bernard Shaw,Annie Bessant,Eleanor Marx,Leigh hunt,and all his artist friends from the preRaphaelite movement.
Gustav Holst,the future composer of "The Planets Suite" lived at first on Hammersmith Broadway.
His favourite walk in London was from Hammersmith Bridge,past Kelmcott House,[William Morris"s House-Morris became his friend ]along Chiswick Mall and ,through the narrow footpath by the church and into the gardens of Chiswick and he would then meet his friends in The George in the Broadway.
The book points out that Hammersmith was a popular location for "Private Schools" and lists a fair number.
The Salvation Army had its roots in Hammersmith for the Rev. William Booth was living in Ravenscourt Road when he founded the Christian Mission.Although his endeavours were centred in the East End,his wife Catherine,was engaged in the Western Suburbs and formed a Hammersmith Mission in 1878.
Then there is a chapter given over to the
"Palaces Of Delight",the Theatres,Opera Houses,Music Halls etc in which Hammersmith was second only to the West End in popularity.
In the year 1884 a man called " Acton Phillips " bought up the old Hammersmith Palace and such stars as Marie Lloyd and Dan Leno made a number of appearances there.
In 1888 Charles Cordingley built the Lyric Theatre in Bradmore Grove off Beadon Road to cater for a more sophisticated audience of up to 500 but it fell short of fire regulations and was restricted to one night shows. After alterations in 1890 it opened as the Lyric Opera House.CH was also editor of The West London Advertiser.
There are sections on the Boating scene,churches,drinking places ,Pleasure Domes etc
but I thought these few might be of relevance-if not to Druitt to the East End at least!
Natalie
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2359
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 4:07 pm: |
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Errata-apologies-
the paragraph beginning "his favourite walk should read"....and into the gardens of CHISWICK HOUSE--- [not just Chiswick]
Natalie |
Julie
Detective Sergeant
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 108
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 4:48 pm: |
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Sir Robert Anderson
THanks for your comments. I've changed my signing name.
PS It is my real name too!
regards
Julie
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2361
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 4:57 pm: |
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Hi Julie,
Actually I quite enjoyed "Restless Spirit"-it reminded me of my own restlessness!
Natalie |
Julie
Detective Sergeant
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 109
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 4:59 pm: |
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Hi Phil
I have a small comment re murder vs. suicide.
Why would anyone who had murdered him put a few stones in his pocket? I would think a heavier weight would make more sense, to ensure that the body sank and was not discovered.
Also, if I were the murderer I would take his money and all documents that points to the identity of the deceased, to ensure that he could not be tied to me in any way.Times were tough, why not take his money?
regards
Julie
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2362
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 5:12 pm: |
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Hi Julie,
The way I see it is that if his relatives were convinced he was the Ripper and knew he was suspected by friends/Valentine etc then they may have thought it was safer to fake his suicide.
Dont forget,if the body had eventually surfaced and a friend who had gone to the police to report him missing had been able to identify his body then the family may well have been suspected of murder.
Remember his family were all doctors and would have known exactly how to bump him off "quickly and quietly" before faking things-an overdose of laudanum for example.
Natalie |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 979
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 5:26 pm: |
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Thanks for that look into Hammersmith, Natalie. That book is listed on abebook.com but the price is a little high for me. I have sent an interlibrary loan request to my local library.
Julie, there were four large stones in each of Montague's pockets. I missed that detail for a long time. That should have been enough to weigh his body down for some time until the gasses formed by decomposition caused enough bouancy to overcome this weight.
Andy S.
(Message edited by aspallek on August 26, 2005) |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2363
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 5:55 pm: |
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Andy,
When I was last at Kew Public Records Office
I picked up several Old Ordnance Survey Maps of the East End and Hammersmith.The ones they had in stock were Hammersmith and Fulham 1871;ditto 1894;
also North Hammersmith and Bedford park 1893.
There is also one at least of Chiswick.
They are excellent and contain extacts of History,names and addresses of Hammersmith dwellers at the time etc. at the back
But the Hammersmith and Fulham one cuts off at Hammersmith Bridge and the North Hammersmith one doesnt have the river on it at all!
They have ISBN"s and can be found on www.alangodfreymaps.co.uk
For further reading on the History of Hammersmith and Fulham they recommend:
C.Bayliss and J.Kimber,The Twentieth Century Hammersmith and Fulham[1999]Survey of Londonvolxlii[1986];subject files in Hammersmith and Fulham local studies dept-they also thank the local studies depts. for their help
Best
Natalie |
Julie
Detective Sergeant
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 110
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 6:02 pm: |
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Hi Natalie
Restless Spirit was a name chosen because of my grandmother. She was born in a small place in NFLD. called Indian Burying Place.( need I say more?)
AS for Montague, your points are well worth contemplating.There are so many things about his suicide and the fact that he was on McNaughton's list that just doesn't sit right.
regards
Julie
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2364
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 6:09 pm: |
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Julie,
NFLD-?Can you help me with these initials?
She sounds wonderful your Grandmother.
Natalie |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4873
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 6:18 pm: |
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Newfoundland and Labrador, I think, Natalie.
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2365
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 6:44 pm: |
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Thanks Robert,
I did think it might be Newfoundland
Natalie |
Julie
Detective Sergeant
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 111
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 10:07 pm: |
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Hi Natalie
NFLD is Newfoundland ( in Canada, east coast)
Newfoundland was an English colony up to 1949. The population consisted of British, Irish, Scottish, and French. The natives themselves were a combo of the above nationalities as well as Indian (Mic Mac mostly) and of course Beothuk Indian and Eskimo, but that doesn't cover all, just the major ones.My background is British and I am having one devil of a time trying to track my dad's side of the family, on his dad's side,however on my grandmother's side it is evident, (micmac)
It is also an internation port. When I was growing up there in the capital city of St. John's, we had many,many boats from other countries grace our shores, eg: Portugese, Spanish, German, Russian, American just to name a few. Newfies , as we are commonly referred to, are known not just for their abundant fish waters but are also recoginized as Staunch supporters of the royal family, we are also regarded as very friendly people living in an absolutely beautiful province. I have been living in Ontario though for many years, however I still consider myself a "Newfie"
regards
Julie
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David Cartwright
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 9:17 pm: |
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Hi Natalie.
Serial killers DO beggar belief.
Peter Sutcliffe was going home to a wife after every murder, and in the earliest cases, a mother-in-law too. He also went to work quite normally every day, and carried on a busy social life with his friends.
That's why they remain unsuspected for so long.
Druitt was seriously mentally ill. His suicide proved that. Yet, as you say, he was able to carry out his duties efficiently, right up to the end. If he was capable of that, he was capable of anything.
Natalie, you once started a discussion with me, speculating on the specific types of mental illness that Druitt might have suffered from. You made some very interesting points and suggestions too. But somehow, we got side-tracked somewhere, and lost it.
Hi Andy
Thanks for putting me straight about the suicide note. For some reason, I'd been under the impression that only William Druitt, and probably the police, had been privy to the full contents of the note.
Best wishes to you both.
DAVID C, |
c.d.
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 10:20 am: |
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Andy,
Hi. I was completely unaware that Druitt's suicide note was printed in the newspaper. I was under the impression that it was found in his room. This certainly puts things in a whole new light. Do you know why the note was published? It certainly seems like an invasion of privacy especially for Victorian times. Was this a common practice or was it because of Druitt's stature? Was there any reference to the police theory that the Ripper might have committed suicide? Any information that you can provide will be appreciated.
c.d. |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 980
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 12:08 pm: |
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David and c.d.,
The "suicide note" was found in Druitt's rooms at Eliot Place, Balckheath. But the contents -- or rather a summary of the contents -- was printed in the Acton, Chiswick, and Turnham Green Gazette of January 5, 1889 as it reported on the inquest:
"Witness had deceased's things searched where he resided, and found a paper addressed to him (produced). The Coroner read the letter, which was to this effect: - "Since Friday I felt I was going to be like mother, and the best thing for me was to die." [Witness=William Druitt].
There is no mention in the article about the Whitechapel crimes or JtR. I never thought of it before but you are right, this does seem like an uncharacteristic invasion of privacy to have the contents of a suicide note printed in a Victoria-era newspaper. I think I have seen it before, though, when I was looking up other suicides of that period.
Julie,
I've been up through New Brunswick and to PEI (took the Northumberland Ferry before they built that blasted new bridge) and driven all the way up round the tip of Cape Breton Island, NS. But unfortunately, I ran out of time before I could take the ferry across to Newfoundalnd. But I have -- like most other transatlantic travelers -- flown over Labrador many times.
Andy S. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2366
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 4:13 pm: |
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Hi David,
I have never felt comfortable comparing Peter
Sutcliffe with The Whitechapel Murderer.
I first got interested in The Whitechapel case through the writings of the much maligned Stephen Knight,who I believe opened many doors
to ways of thinking about the case as well as
making available some previously unseen documents.
Druitt remains an enigma its true.Clearly something had happened other than his suicide
for Macnaghten to point the finger at him.
But Druitt could have convinced himself he was the ripper!
As for comparing the behaviour of Peter Sutcliffe with Montague Druitt there is simply no comparison as far as I can see.
Druitt came from the Upper Middle classes,from a distinguished family of surgeons , doctors and lawyers,himself an Oxford graduate
and first class cricketer with games documented throughout the 1888 season.He was also busy with his legal work right up to the end and carried out
his duties as Secretary of Blackheath Club to the letter, again right up to the last couple of weeks of his life.
Sutcliffe was married ,its true ,but his wife
suffered from a serious mental illness and from what I have read the marriage was a strange affair.
He was not popular and what you say about his active social life is news to me.
He drove a lorry as I recall and had few other interests than his murder sprees which included women other than sex workers,a young student being one such victim.
What I would like to know is how many other
serial killers have shared Druitt"s type of priveleged ,social,educational and professional/sporting background but are on record as having had the sort of ongoing,active "engagement" with these worlds concurrent with their serial killing?Are there any statistics ?
Don"t forget Druitt has no known history of violence whatever and no proven links to Whitechapel whatever,
Best Wishes Natalie
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John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 449
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 5:53 am: |
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Natalie,
" Hello ".(As Leslie Phillips used to say)..
Whilst everything you say makes sense, I am not sure we know enough about Montague Druitt's complete picture to make judgements.
Naturally, given modern day techniques, and the
efficiency of information gathering and monitoring today, we certainly know a great deal about Peter Sutcliffe.
I am probably not alone in wishing Montague Druitt had been given the opportunity for a fair trial.( Although such a thing would have been hard to guarantee given the hysteria of the press at the time). We would at least now, be able to luxuriate in combing through a much more detailed
psychological silhouette of MJD.
I must add, I certainly agree with you about Stephen Knight's research. He certainly did shine his torch in many places long neglected beforehand.And some of his stuff was first-rate.
I want right here and now, to coin a name for that terrible disease which inflicts most great Ripperologist authors: "The Publisher's Imperative".
That is, where a Ripper author takes his manuscript or womenscript, to a publisher begging to have a book. The cold-hearted publisher says:
" Yeah, but what's different about your book?".
"Ya, gotta have a sensational suspect!".
Can't ya accuse Prince Charles? Or Sherlock Holmes?"...."Ya gotta have a gimmick!".
And this dear fellow Ripperologists, has been the downfall of many great researchers turned authors.
"The Publisher's Imperative" makes JTR authors
take that vertiginous leap from logic to huge improbability, so publishers can guarantee big sales. Stephen Knight made that leap.
All that does not change the core of Natalie's argument: that Montague Druitt does seems to be condemned on flimsey evidence so far as we currently know.IMO. |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 985
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 9:28 am: |
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Natalie,
Sometimes psychopaths come from the "upper crust." Take, for example, Leopold and Loeb. True, they were not serial killers (so far as is known) but they might have turned out to be had they not been so inept in carrying out their one known murder. They were most definitely psychopathic (to use the archaic term).
Andy S. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2370
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 11:52 am: |
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Hi John and Andrew,
What I think is that actually we do know
quite a lot about his activities up until he was dismissed from Eliot"s School and subsequently drowned himself.If one tries to compose a profile of Montague Druitt he seems to have behaved in way that befitted his social/economic/academic class.Everything he undertook, that we know about, was accomplished at least competently and in the case of Sport,much more than competently.
All we know about him that signifies a departure from this seemingly decent enough life is that he got into serious trouble at Mr Valentine"s School,left a suicide note that explained that he feared for his sanity-especially "since Friday"-and that he was found drowned about a month later in Hammersmith[with a "return ticket to Hammersmith Broadway"].
Nothing whatever to indicate he was in the slightest bit psychopathic here though Andrew-another term for a psychopath being a"plausible rogue".The one thing these people have in common is that they usually leave a trail of complete chaos behind them!Well I am sure that if the Blackheath Cricket Committee had been asked what distinguished MJD from others in their club they
wouldnt have said they had found any trail of disorder or chaos that he had left behind-in fact didnt they say his work for them had always been exemplary-or words to that effect!
But I agree he could have had another psychological condition that drove him to drown himself.
But
- No history of violence,-no known links with Whitechapel-
and so far only Macnaghten placing him way in front of Thomas Cutbush et al as the likely Ripper.
Another point to ponder- How come Abberline said he had heard about it all[Macnaghten"s assertions]and there was nothing in it?
Why wasnt Anderson convinced either?
Just pondering....
Natalie
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David Cartwright
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 8:31 am: |
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Hi Natalie.
I don't think that social status has any bearing at all to the mind of a serial killer.
I mentioned Sutcliffe as an example only, in that these people can carry on their daily lives and duties perfectly normally, whilst committing wholesale murder.
Sutcliffe DID have his little circle of friends, and even used their company (unknown to them) for reconnaissance trips to planned murder sites. Did his Mother-in-Law also have a "serious mental illness"?? He was living under her roof at the time of his earlier killings.
I could mention John Wayne Gacy, who was an influential man with influential friends, but all of this is irrelevant anyway. As far as behaviour goes, each individual killer will carry on according to whatever his daily life and duties are, whether they be upper-middle class or working class. You seem to be saying that Druitt's social standing somehow makes him far less likely to committ murder than Sutcliffe, etc.
I don't allow such things to influence me, and as far as my own personal opinion goes, I still believe Druitt to be, by far, the best suspect for the unenvious title of Jack the Ripper.
Best wishes.
DAVID C.
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c.d.
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 12:56 pm: |
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Andy,
Hi. I know that the police and the newspapers had to be careful of opening themselves up to libel suits and therefore would be quite reluctant to make any reference to JTR in connection with Druitt's suicide. Do you think that there is any possibility that the suicide note was published with the hope that someone might connect Druitt to the murders and come forward with information? It would be interesting to find out how common it was for any personal information regarding a suicide to be printed in the newspapers at the time. As you mentioned, this really does seem to be an uncharacteristic breach of privacy for Victorian times.
c.d. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2371
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 1:21 pm: |
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Hi David,
Social/economic class/professional work- all I was saying was that he apparently carried out most of his duties right up to the end in a conscientious way[we even have records of the secretary work and legal work] except for getting himself into trouble at school.We do therefore have some yardstick to go by unlike Peter Sutcliffe whose only "hobby" seemed to have been the murdering.Nor do we have any yardstick by which to judgeSutcliffe"s work record.Was he conscientious/reliable as Druitt seems to have been to an almost exemplary extent viz a viz advocacy work/cricketing matters etc.
Actually this can be of much significance because where there is mental illness the regularity of a person"s work record is usually a reliable indicator[obviously not if the person has been made redundant or is unemployed for reasons to do with physical health etc].
It seems that it is only at the very end that we begin to hear about any "trouble" beginning to disrupt Druitt"s pattern of reliable employment-and we do have at least a partial explanation for this from the man himself
in his suicide note.
Anyway what do you make of Abberline"s and Anderson"s[by implication]and Walter Dew"s rebuttal of Macnaghten"s assertions?They too were in a senior position to have seen and have evaluated the evidence -and if they were shown no evidence what does that tell us- because it tells us something David if you think about it ,so how come if Druitt is such a hot suspect such senior police as they dismissed Druitt as a contender?
Natalie
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David Cartwright
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 8:36 pm: |
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Hi Natalie.
Well Nats, first of all, as I said, I just pulled Sutcliffe out of the hat. I could have named many others. But in answer to one of your queries, I have a video recording of Sutcliffe's boss & the owner of the company, William Clark, making a statement after his arrest. He was totally shocked and described Sutcliffe as his best, most honest, & most conscientious driver.
He went even further, and stated that as a result of a collective scam & fiddle within the company, he was forced to sack ALL his drivers, with the sole exception of Sutcliffe, who he described as "clean". This occurred quite some time before Sutcliffe's arrest. It's a matter of record Nats, and can be checked.
Well, enough of Sutcliffe, let's get to the people you've named. Firstly, Abberline. Only a couple of months ago, along with A.P., you described Abberline to ME, as a "liar", based on another case. But now that it suits, you're happy to take his word about Druitt. Are you also happy to accept his inaccurate statements about George Chapman ??
Anderson?? Well, he described the Ripper's identity as a "definitely ascertained fact". This, said Swanson, was Kosminski. Is this dirty little man of seven stone, who ate food out of the gutters, refused to wash or work, and who was described as "not" dangerous to others in the asylum, YOUR picture of the Ripper ??
It has been the trend in Ripperology for many years now, to discredit Macnaghten at any cost.
Paul Begg stated on a documentary I have, that Ripperologists DON'T want the mystery solved, and I can well believe that now. Macnaghten stated that he had been very interested in the case even before he held his high official position. He didn't just pluck Druitt out of thin air, and must have had good information to suspect him. He then stated that further private information hardened his suspicions, sufficiently enough to consider him No.1.
I believe him, and consider him to have been an honourable man. Clearly, you don't Nats, and everyone is entitled to their opinion. But for me, Druitt is everything I'd be looking for in the Ripper. A single man. Very strong, fit & agile, with a good brain. But also a man on the borderline of insanity.
Given the dreadful curse of insanity and suicide that plagued the Druitt family, particularly the women, it doesn't take a genius to work out a plausible motive for Montague, in his failing mental state, to form a hatred of prostitutes. Pure speculation of course, but plausible.
Well, I expect to be attacked for these views, but I won't change them, so I'll leave it at that.
Best wishes Nats.
DAVID C. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2377
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 1:06 pm: |
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David,
I need to answer each of your points to make myself as clear as possible so here we go:
1] Sutcliffe may have been a reliable employee
but there the comparison with Druitt ends IMHO.
Druitt led an active social life,was a dedicated sportsman while at the same time being a part time school teacher and a barrister who was doing advocacy work right up to his last days.
What hobbies did Sutcliffe have-other than his [proven] murdering?
Druitt"s work/sports record would be hard to maintain for someone with a serious mental illness throughout the early Autumn of 1888.
Everything in this work/sports record indicates Druitt was certainly not psychopathic
which leaves us with only two major mental illnesses that could have caused him to commit suicide:manic depression or schizophrenia.
I doubt,if he really were the Whitechapel murderer that he would have suffered from manic depression-very few manic depressives commit crimes of any kind let alone the crime of murder-psychotic or not.
He could its true,have been suffering from the onset of schizophrenia[ there was after all a lot of order in Hitler"s madness!]So yes I guess thats a possibility-just!But actually ,as I said earlier, the work record is usually the first to suffer and there is nothing to indicate failure in Druitt"s advocacy work and only at the very end did he lose his teaching job.
2]Re Abberline
I have always had a very high regard for Abberline.I dont remember calling him a liar but I do remember
the role he played in the Cleveland Street Case where he turned a sort of Nelson like "blind eye"over several matters.
I dont think he was any kind of fool to have considered that George Chapman was the ripper esp. at the time of his trial.After all he was a trained barber /surgeon and a thoroughly nasty piece of works-it wouldnt have surprised me either had he been the ripper.
David- your wording regarding Kosminski is astonishing!
"a dirty little man" therefore he couldnt be the Whitechapel murderer?I take it you mean he was too "out of it" with his mental illness to be Jack the Ripper.And OK put like that I can see what you mean.
But seriously, as far as dirty little men go ,I know of no dirtier, more horrible, vile ,woman hating/ woman fearing , pile of filth than whoever Jack the Ripper was!
Poor old Kosminski.A man who didnt seem to have any record of violence at all[-just like Druitt in this respect].
I think what mostly got up Anderson"s aristocratic nose was that Kosminski was
a]Jewish
b]poor
c]an immigrant!
Anyway he committed no violent acts in Colney Hatch or Leavesdon in all the 30 years he was there[except for a chair throwing incident].
But Anderson was every bit as senior as Macnaghten so surely we have to consider their suspects
with a due sense of parity and respect for each man"s view!
I am startled by your phrase that poor old Monty,
-
-was "everything you would ever be looking for in the Ripper![doubt his family would have enjoyed hearing him so described]. Here again David, you are making the ripper -that horrible,little scumbag--- sound like Prince Charming!
Are you joking David?
Otherwise I feel I may need to apologise[posthumously] to
Polly,Kate,Annie,Elizabeth ,Mary Jane -and all those other poor victims who lost their lives to this murderous misogynous mutilator
that you should see their slaughterer thus!
Natalie
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Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 988
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 5:21 pm: |
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c.d. --
I don't think that was the thought of the newspaper in publishing the contents of Druitt's suicide note. Remember that it only appeared in a small, local Chiswick area paper and not in a major London newspaper. I think it was just the writer's best attempt at being thorough.
Natalie --
I hate to keep going back to Gacy but I lived not far from his home in the Northwest suburbs of Chicago at the time his murders were discovered and I will never forget the television images of body bag after body bag emerging from that house -- the death count rising daily. Gacy would have been considered organized and efficient in running his business right up until the end. He was not suspected of being capable of such violence by his friends. You just can never tell.
I think it is likely that Druitt performed his duties adequately up until his dismissal. however, we don't know this for certain. And we do know that he managed to get himself into "serious trouble" with his employer. So his organization broke down at some point.
There may be a minor clue in his cricket performance in 1888. Looking at the scoresheets and statistics that we do have (see Leighton's book) it is evident that his performance had fallen off dramatically from previous seasons and was rather mediocre. Of course, this might have been the result of a physical injury or just the effects of advancing age (though don't many cricket players play well into their 40's?). However, this decline in performance might also reflect a mounting psychological disturbance that was manifesting itself in physical changes.
Andy S. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2381
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 6:12 pm: |
|
Hi Andy,
Yes That could well be significant regarding the fall off in his performance.I hadnt known about that or maybe I just missed it.
Thanks
Natalie |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 452
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 6:56 am: |
|
Hello Natalie and Andy et al,
Although this is not addressing the train ticket issue per se, my own opinion is both of you are right.
However, - (and here I am not trying to put either Druitt or Macnaghten on some kind of Simon Pure pedestal)- I cannot believe Druitt would have been allegedly suspected by his close friends/ family of one of the most horrific a series of women murders of the century, without some further evidence than his possible mysogyny
and/or homosexuality.
This was what I was trying to say in an earlier post.
Sure, one of Macnaghten's great weaknesses,( and he had many ), was his mistaken belief he was a hands-on, front-line detective. Whereas he was a higher level bureaucrat: a "pen-pusher".
He kept murderer's items as souvenirs; he kept photos of their victims; he attended the digging-up of corpses; he attended sensational trials...
He sought to give the impression he alone, knew who murderers were when others did not.
This probably goes some way to telling us part of the reason he wrote the Memorandum.
But, having said that, I still am not convinced that Macnaghten -with all his faults - did not have more substantial reason for suspecting Montague Druitt as a mass murderer.
The fact there was a Home Office file which no longer exists, and there were hints in Macnaghten's ventriloquist dummy, (George R Sims') writings which gave further hints to Druitt's possible "problems"..religious bigotry; hatred of women of " a certain class"; and one or more periods spent in an asylum, all suggest we are not in full possession of the facts regarding suspect, Montague John Druitt.
I know others have said all this, so I am merely
echoing those points. |
David Cartwright
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 5:47 pm: |
|
Hi Andy.
Yes I thought about what you've just said, a little while back.
Robert put me on to the cricket records, and I noted Monty's poor performances. At the time, I think I said that his early dismissals in the two match records I saw, could simply have been the result of good bowling by the opposition, or maybe, just maybe, his mind was on other things at the time.
I'd forgotten to mention that to Natalie.
Thanks for reminding me.
Best wishes.
DAVID C. |
David Cartwright
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 3:42 pm: |
|
Hi Natalie.
Hey, steady on there. Where on earth do you get the idea that I think of Jack the Ripper as a Prince Charming ?? I was describing Druitt as, "physically" the type of man I'd be looking for. You're attacking me as though you were a relative of his. SOMEONE who passed for a human being was killing these women. Someone who was obviously able to behave like a human being in everyday life.
For the last time Nats, Sutcliffe was just an example and no more. You asked questions of his work record, and I supplied you with what I knew.
End of story. Exit Sutcliffe.
Do you know what I have in my hand at this moment ?? It's a print-out of a post addressed to me by a certain "Natalie Severn", dated Jan.5th. 2005. It begins ---- "Hi David. I too often think that Druitt may well have been JtR".
Obviously you've changed your mind, which is your perogative, but why should you attack me for harbouring the very same thoughts. I'm afraid that if you're hoping that JtR was some kind of inhuman creature like Dracula, to fit your desciption of "horrible little scumbag", it hasn't proved to be the case generally.
I too would like to think it was such a creature, but think him more likely to have been a harmless & inoffensive looking man who loved his Mother.
Being born a gentleman does not make Druitt incapable of serial murder. I believe that if it WAS him, then he was subject to periods of homicidal mania, over which he had no control, and his suicide was a last act of remorse.
An identical pattern to the one I've suggested, even down to the suicide, occurred in the 1960's, in the case known as the "Jack the Stripper" murders. The man was not named, but his suicide brought closure to the case.
You said how you thought Druitt's family would feel about things like this being said. But what about the families of every other man who has been accused without proof ?? One thing is sure, SOMEBODY killed these women.
I personally consider Thomas Cutbush to be a very poor Ripper suspect, but I respect A.P. very much, and wouldn't dream of attacking her for her views.
I'm sorry Nats, but of all the suspects that have been put forward, Druitt is the favourite for me, as he has been for many years now. But I don't want a war with you about it. I'd rather not post at all, than sink to that level.
Best wishes.
DAVID C.
|
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 990
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 1:58 pm: |
|
John,
No one to my knowledge has ever suspected Montague Druitt of being a "mass murderer." Melville Macnaghten did suspect Druitt of committing exactly five murders -- no more, no less. He was very clear on the number of murders.
If we exaggerate the accusations against any suspect, it becomes easy to refute them.
Andy S. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2384
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 5:58 pm: |
|
John-thanks for summarising some of the tete a tete exchanges that appear to have gone on between Macnaghten and Sims.
More particularly thanks for this information on Macnaghten.
Its close to how I have begun to see him myself-a bureaucrat with a bit of a "twist" he seems to have been most at home doing this "armchair" theorising about the murders -now and then enjoying watching corpses being dug up or going to sensational trials-no doubt making notes about it all for those "Days of My Years..." and meanwhile getting paid most handsomely for all his "honorary" detective work
---- so why such an honourable man ?
As I see it, Sir M Macnaghten"s word is no more reliable than say the eminent Dr Stowell"s or Dr Anderson"s regarding who the Whitechapel murderer was.
But each may have enjoyed the kudos given to those believed by others to be in the know!
David,
The reason I got rattled was its like people sometimes seem to forget we are discussing Jack the Ripper-hardly someone who could be considered a friend of the female sex and it can be irksome, from time to time, to some of us women, seeing the ripper sort of "sexed up" or having to have the "right credentials"-heck- here was someone who tore into women like there was no tomorrow ---and always the most vulnerable/unprotected women at that-no heroic figure this!
I still dont discount Montague Druitt.All I am doing is trying to find out why he was suspected by Macnaghten-and so far there is nothing I have found that links him to these murders.
Best Wishes
Natalie
|
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 453
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 7:14 am: |
|
Sorry Andy,
I was in no way trying to invest some undeserved super-evil mantle on Montague John Druitt. I am not an armchair criminal psychologist or amateur profiler.In fact, I've read very few true crime books which did not touch on Jack The Ripper.
When I described him as a " mass murderer" I perhaps should have said "multiple murderer" .
I have no idea what entitles someone to have the dubious title of "mass murderer". After all, I think five is quite a lot! But I do accept your corrective.Thanks.
Natalie,
Thanks for your enlightening remarks.
I still think it will be difficult to dispationately assess Montague Druitt's guilt until we have more details.
Which I and many others are busily trying to unearth in lots of unlikely places...
|
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2084
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 7:22 am: |
|
Hi Nats,
And that's the problem for me regarding all contemporarily named suspects.
Had the evidence against any one of them been strong enough to link him directly to one or more of the murders, that evidence IMHO would almost certainly have been shared, compared and convincing to more than just one or two of the top cops who worked on the case.
And what are the chances of any of them naming the real Jack - without a shred of evidence of a direct nature? There must have been thousands of men for whom a circumstantial case could have been made, but were never brought to police attention.
Love,
Caz
X |
David Cartwright
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 6:50 am: |
|
Hi Natalie.
Please accept my apologies if I upset you. I certainly never intended to do so for a single moment. These were indeed horrendous crimes, and it's difficut for the normal person to comprehend the kind of mind and man that could plan and carry out such deeds. Life was already bad enough for these women, without meeting such a terrible end.
It seems such an appalling thought, that a man regarded as a "gentleman" could have committed these acts, but serial killings have turned up some very unlikely culprits, one, as Andy says, being Gacy.
There seems to be so much hidden about Druitt. John commented on the Home Office file that no longer exists, and the hints of possible further "problems" that Druitt had. I've always been struck by the "coincidences". The murders beginning very soon after his mother was committed to an asylum, the latest victim of the family curse.
Then, if you believe Kelly to be a JtR victim, and I most definitely DO, his suicide soon after that dreadful slaughter. I personally believe that Kelly was the last Ripper victim, and that McKenzie & Coles don't belong in the series. Of course, there is no definite proof of ANYTHING against Druitt, but if you add together the things that Andy, John, and myself have said, they make a pretty big coincidence.
As for the Railway tickets found on his body, there have been a few possible avenues explored here. It would seem from the return ticket, that he intended to return home, in which case it points to something major having occurred that changed his mind, and resulted in the drastic action that he took. But who could really know what was going on in a mind that was obviously in total turmoil ?
Nats, you seem to have a soft spot for Monty, so just for you, I sincerely hope it wasn't him.
Best wishes.
DAVID C.
|
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2385
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 2:43 pm: |
|
Not really David!I actually have much more of a "soft spot" for Kosminski,poor,a broken man at twenty four wandering the ghost wards of Leavesdon for 27 years or so years.
But its true that I like what I have read about his early liberalism and most particularly how he "defended his contemporaries against the older generation which had}subjugated women and tolerated slavery"-yes I do quite like Druitt for having said that in his last debate!
Natalie |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2386
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 2:47 pm: |
|
ps David,The last para in the post above refers to Druitt and was taken from a chapter in Donald Rumbelows book-The Complete JtR. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2387
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 3:31 pm: |
|
Hi Caz,
Well yes and no!A few may have known who he was[or near as damn it] but may have chosen to throw others off the scent.
In my view this would particularly apply if the murderer was "one of them"----a bit like Lord Lucan"s friends all preferring to believe in Lucan"s innocence!
So I am prepared to believe there may have been a "cover up"-but could someone like Macnaghten have been "covering up"-in the same way as Lord Lucan"s friends still do and with the same total loyalty -for one of his own "aristocratic" friends or was it possibly to exonerate Thomas Cutbush[a relation of one of his senior colleagues] or was it simply, as he claimed,that he was "covering up" but only out of
consideration for Druitt"s family?
Nats
x |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2389
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 3:39 pm: |
|
Hi John,
I agree completely.So I hope something definite
can be soon rooted out,
Best Wishes
Natalie |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2092
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 6:18 am: |
|
Hi Nats,
But if Macnaghten was so concerned about Druitt's family, did he have to name him as his best suspect for being the ripper, even in a confidential memo?
What I'm trying to get at is that if Macnaghten was right, it was Druitt who hacked MJK up. That's the very worst thing you could possibly suspect about anyone in writing. So what could possibly be there in the 'private information' that would have put Druitt in an even worse light, and upset the family, had it not been 'covered up' by the discreet Macnaghten?
Do you see what I mean? He may as well have 'hung' Druitt for a (black) sheep as a lamb, once he was officially named in that memo.
How would it be more considerate to your family, if you were named as someone's best suspect for murder and mutilation, but they covered up the fact that you had, say, a stash of porn, behaved 'oddly', fantasised about death, or walked the streets at night?
Love,
Caz
X |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 991
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 12:28 pm: |
|
John,
No problem! Just for clarification:
A "mass murderer" is a person who willfully kills a large number of people in one act. For example, a terrorist who crashes an airplane into a skyscraper is a mass murderer.
A "serial killer" is a person who willfully kills several people one at a time. John Gacy was a serial killer.
There is no specific minimum number of people that have to be killed in order to "qualify" as either a mass murderer or a serial killer (that I know of anyway).
Andy S. |
Cludgy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 12:59 pm: |
|
Hi Andy what do you call a soldier who kills his fellow human beings with the full approval of his Country's government?
Regards Cludgy |
Cludgy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 12:59 pm: |
|
Hi Andy what do you call a soldier who kills his fellow human beings with the full approval of his Country's government?
Regards Cludgy |
|
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