| Author |
Message |
    
Greg Hutton
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2004 - 7:44 am: | 
|
I was looking through a selection of JTR books yesterday and in one of them (sorry can't remember which one)is a photograph of Dorset Street at the time of JTR.
The caption underneath this photograph stated that Millers court was just about where the third lamp is situated. The problem is, that at the end of the street there is what looks like the Crispen Street refuge building.
This therefore places the Millers court passage entrance on the wrong side of the street i.e. on the South side not the North. Either the caption is wrong or the photograph has been printed 'back to front'.
The same photograph is on this site, have a look for yourselves and see if you agree.
Regards,
Greg |
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 505
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2004 - 9:22 am: |
|
Greg,
I know what you mean..the building at the end does indeed look like the Crispin Street Refuge.If you look at the two figures on the left,the woman with the hat and the apron(!) and then across the road to where the table is I think IMHO that Millers Ct would have been around the table area and that the lamp thing related to the position of Crossinghams.Millers court was on the North side of the street without a doubt..opposite to the multi-storey car park these days
What do you think now?
Cheers
Suzi |
Greg Hutton
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2004 - 10:29 am: |
|
Suzi,
thats roughly where I would have placed Millers Court but if you compare the photograph with the table to the photograph with the chair outside Millers Court you'll notice that in the table photo there is a section of pavement missing at the entrance to whatever court that is. In the chair photo, the pavement is intact.
It must depend on how much time passed between the two photographs and whether any modifications were done to the pavement in that time.
If the two photographs are of the same period, then it can't be the Millers Court entrance behind the table.
I did a merge of two photographs, the table one and one of the modern one using the refuge building door and the corner of the end building on the right hand side of Dorset Street as reference points. It was quite surreal to watch them slowly change from the old to new Dorset Street.
Regards,
Greg
|
Greg Hutton
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, February 02, 2004 - 10:35 am: |
|
Suzi,
that's where I would have placed Millers court but if you look at the photograph you will notice a drop in the pavement at the door/passage entrance.
If you compare the table photograph with the chair photograph of the Millers court entrance you'll notce that there isn't a drop in the pavement at that point.
Does anyone know the time difference between when the two photographs were taken? If there is a significant time delay that may account for the way the pavement is constructed, if not then that isn't Millers court opposite the third lamp!
I made a photo merge of two photographs (the old table one and a recent one, both from this site) using the refuge building door and windows and the edge of the last building on the right hand side of Dorset Street as fixed points. It took about 10 seconds to change from old to new but it was quite surreal to look at.
Regards,
Greg
If this message appears twice please forgive my impatience. |
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 530
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 05, 2004 - 4:14 pm: |
|
Greg!! sounds very impressive why dont you post it!!Having been to the area too often for my own good I'd be very interested to see your photo merge thing!!Think you may have a point!!
It was twice..but I'm soo guilty of that..sure you'll be forgiven!!
Register sir!!
Cheers
Suzi |
Greg Hutton
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, February 05, 2004 - 6:55 pm: |
|
Suzi,
I lost the first one when I had to rebuild my pc. However, I have made another one this evening,not as smooth or accurate as the previous merge but it should still give you an idea.
Regards,
Greg |
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 550
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 18, 2004 - 2:42 pm: |
|
Greg
Have tried and tried to download the merge.wont play with me and wont let me play!!!.....praps if you try it again Thanks for bearing with me!!!
Cheers Suzi |
Jon P. Van Skiver
Police Constable
Username: Jonvs
Post Number: 7
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2004 - 2:07 pm: |
|
Greg,
Thanks for the video merge! Like you said, it surreal watching the change over a 100 years.
Suzi, Windows media player will play it.
Thanks again Greg.
BRG,
Jon |
Andrew Spallek
Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 400
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2004 - 2:30 pm: |
|
Greg,
That is truly neat. It would be great if you could do that with some of the other "than and now" photos.
Andy S.
|
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 558
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 20, 2004 - 4:19 pm: |
|
Greg!!! I know I'm a complete newbie to this but
have played around with Windows Media Player for ages....no joy.....what should I do ???? help!!!!
hope to hear back soon
Suzix |
Jon P. Van Skiver
Police Constable
Username: Jonvs
Post Number: 9
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 2:01 pm: |
|
Suzi,
Make sure you have Windowes Media Player 9, if not download it. Click on the downloaded video, a box will pop up saying the player doesn't recognize the extension but would you like to try and play it, click "yes" and it'll work fine, at least it did for me.
BRG,
Jon |
Greg Hutton
Sergeant
Username: Greg
Post Number: 14
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 4:14 pm: |
|
Hello all,
looks like me concerns over the photo in question were somewhat justified. I've come across a clearer version and the Crispen Street refuge is nowhere to be seen. Take a look yourselves and compare it to the version found on this site. Where did the ghost building come from?
Also, can anyone confirm that the building clearly shown in this photo is the same as the existing building on the same location?
(Message edited by greg on May 02, 2004) |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 254
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 3:30 pm: |
|
Hi Greg
It's definitely Dorset Street looking towards Commercial Street. I've seen a photo from William Stewarts book, which isn't very clear but the buildings on the South side correspond with the ones on the right above.
The building at the far end is still there.
I took this from the Whites Row car park.
Just for info, the building on the right corner was "The Queens Head" public house.
All the best
Rob |
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 715
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 4:32 pm: |
|
Hi Greg,Rob etc.
Strangely have been looking again at this photo last night....theres something wrong here....Gregs photo is superb and shows (to me ) that we're NOT looking towards the Refuge at all ,but up towards Commercial St. Was there last week and something made me think the 'phote' best beloved by us all is odd...Ok if this is the cast the table side of the street thing is all wrong!.....Oh God here we go again! Cheers Suzi |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 255
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 6:09 pm: |
|
Hi
This isn't very clear but it's the best copy I have.
This photo is from William Stewarts book, and was taken about 1938 and it shows Dorset Street looking towards Commercial Street. The buildings on the South Side are exactly the same as in the photo from c1900. And you can also tell the building in Commercial Street is the same as the one in the earliar photo and that it is still there.
Rob |
Michael Raney
Inspector
Username: Mikey559
Post Number: 342
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 6:15 pm: |
|
Greg,
Awesome merge. Great pics on this thread all together.
Mikey |
Greg Hutton
Sergeant
Username: Greg
Post Number: 15
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 12:09 pm: |
|
Hello all,
Thanks for the clarification Rob, looks like I'll be re-merging Dorset street, shame because it lookes so right with the old photo. Still now it's all confirmed I can't leave it as it is. Great second photo B.T.W. do you know of anymore? I can't find any at all!!
Suzi, I wish I could re-vist the sites as often as you do, are you sure your not Mary Kelly in spirit wondering around looking for the vital clue to prove or disprove it was 'Joe wot dunnit'?
Thanks Mikey for the post but it has to be re-done. There are other merges, one for Mitre Square and another for Berner Street if you are interested. |
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 728
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 4:37 am: |
|
Hi Greg,
Not Mary I reckon....am at least twice her height!!, Now Kate.....Seem to recollect the odd fire engine impression and worse in my murky past and recent present!! whoops!
Get those merges up eh!!
Cheers
Suzi |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1769
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 5:01 am: |
|
Suzi,
The fire engine impression aside...  ,
as I recollect Kate Eddowes is referred to as a very small woman as well, probably even slightly smaller than Kelly.
Besides, Greg said "in spirit".
Anyhow, I have to concur with Greg; you can indeed consider yourself lucky to be able to stroll around on those sites whenever you feel like it. Especially since there are a lot of nice pubs in the district...
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
|
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 792
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 1:04 pm: |
|
Hey,Mary Kelly has been described as "buxom" "tall" and even her height is given of 5ft 7ins----not a "small woman even by today"s standards.
Natalie |
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 731
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 3:26 pm: |
|
Hi Greg and Glenn!!!!
Yes tis good to be able to hop on a train I guess.... have got some newbies coming with me next time tho and have instructed them to read Don before we go!!
Nats!! Hi!!! Still think MJK wansn't 5' 7" ......I'm 5' 10" God Nat if she was 5'7" Long(!!!!) Liz wasnt even a contender......don't think she was anyway!!!! HHHhmmmm some carthorse old Mary.......nobody commented on her height.....wasn't it Maxwell, xx suzi
|
Richard Brian Nunweek
Chief Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 865
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 3:32 pm: |
|
Hi Suzi,
when we meet in Brighton, we certainly will see eye to eye, as we are exactly the same height. but I doubt if we will be the same weight unless them dreaded computer scales are not as accurate as advertised.
Richard. |
Greg Hutton
Sergeant
Username: Greg
Post Number: 17
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 4:22 pm: |
|
Suzi,
I know this is a bit of a cheek to ask, but next time you go can you take photo of Dorset street from aproximately the same position as the Victorian one above, getting the building across Commercial Street in roughly the same position and either post it here or e-mail it to me?
I can't find one at all that fits. Don't go out of your way though, it's just a thought.
Best regards,
Greg |
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 737
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 4:10 pm: |
|
Greg,
OK am planning on going fairly soon...looks like about 50 yds down on the left hand side and looking up towards Commercial St!!! Ok will do it with the school digi cam!!!! Lots of Car park here tho!!!!!!
Ok give me a couple of weeks!!! will get back!!! email me yr address and will send ok??? All best Suzi x
|
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 258
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 9:49 am: |
|
Hi Greg
This photo is from the approximate spot. If you want a higher resolution copy, e-mail me and I'll e-mail you one.
all the best
Rob
 |
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 786
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 10:16 am: |
|
Rob/Greg
Off to the smoke next Wed!! for two days!! odd shot that though......might tuck myself in a bit further to the left!!! to get the building opposite in!!!
Move that bloody blue car tho!!!
Will get back!! wish me luck!!
Suzi x |
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 787
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 10:26 am: |
|
hi
Right have been through all the pics I have on this place.......100's of em but strangely NOTHING looking in that direction!!!!!! Spooky eh!!! off on Wed to rectify that 'eh!!
Cheers
Will have one or ten in the Ten Bells and or City Darts for you!! Suzi |
Greg Hutton
Sergeant
Username: Greg
Post Number: 18
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 4:25 am: |
|
Thanks Rob and Suzi for your sterling efforts, I was hoping Rob that the building would be a bit more visable, and Suzi is going to take a few photos on Wednesday for me so I may be able to have the ideal snap then, here's hoping anyway.
Regards,
Greg |
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 797
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 10:49 am: |
|
Greg!
"Snap"'eh!!! God that ages us!!!
OK will make sure I get that durned building in if it kills me!!!!!!have been going bonkers here trying to find one......but the pic police seem to have taken them off!!! Oh well looks like rain tomorrow but nothing new there then!!!
Will get back soon as! Rumour has it theres email in the hotel ! so will let you know whats up!
Best Suzi
|
Eric J. Matatics
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 9:29 am: |
|
Sorry if this is obvious...
Is the old entrance to the murder site no longer there? Has Buck's Row been "filled in" with modern structures?
Thanks. |
Greg Hutton
Sergeant
Username: Greg
Post Number: 19
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2004 - 6:35 am: |
|
Eric,
Millers court and the North side of dorset street was demolished in 1928, Bucks Row is now Durward Street and the murder site is still there. Hope this helps, all details are on this excellent site, photos, diagrams, essays, arguments etc. if you look for it, you will find it.
Regards,
Greg |
Greg Hutton
Sergeant
Username: Greg
Post Number: 20
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2004 - 6:48 am: |
|
Suzi,
yes, did I really write 'snap', lol.
How does a 'digitalised image' sound as opposed to a 'snap'! B.T.W. my baseball cap is on my head the correct way, i.e. backwards!!!
Ye Gods, somebody tell 'them' fish and chips come in proper newspaper and YOU DON'T DEEP FRY MAAARRRSSSS BAAARRRRRSSSS. AAARRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!
regards,
Greg |
Eric J. Matatics
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2004 - 9:22 am: |
|
Thank you, Greg.
I did look around this site and have come to the conclusion that Miller's Court--once perpendicular to Dorset--is now part of a widened "new" Dorset Street (Durward Street today). Is that accurate? Could someone post a "Then and Now" map with street names side-by-side?
Was the business above about "which side in the 'table' photo contained the old entrance to Miller's Court" ever resolved?
Thanks! |
Greg Hutton
Sergeant
Username: Greg
Post Number: 21
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2004 - 12:32 pm: |
|
Eric,
there are maps and drawings already available, try typing the street name into the search engine on the home page of this site and wade through the pages that come up, the clues are there and so is the information, it just takes a bit of patience to find it.
Once you find your way around it will all make sense.
I think you're mixing up Dorset/Duvall Street with Durward Street.
Greg |
Eric J. Matatics
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 9:01 am: |
|
Will do.
Sad that thes architectural changes took place, eh?
Thanks again, Greg. |
Greg Hutton
Sergeant
Username: Greg
Post Number: 23
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 09, 2004 - 9:28 am: |
|
Hello all,
for those who are still interested, I have completed the re-merge of Dorset Street.
Many many thanks to Suzi Hanney for her photographic skills and of course daring do in risking prosecution for straying onto private land to take the required photos and without whom this merge would not be possible.
Any complaints regarding the epic film you are about to view must therefore be directed at the above person, . |
Greg Hutton
Sergeant
Username: Greg
Post Number: 28
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 09, 2004 - 11:37 am: |
|
I have also found that the merges will play in the DIV-X player
Greg |
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 834
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 11:49 am: |
|
Greg
Thanx for that!!!!! And if I get any bad movie/pic reviews........!!!!!!! Grrrrrr meanwhile see you back with Mr Barnett soon I hope!!!!
Cheers
Suzi |
Cludgy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, June 11, 2004 - 10:23 am: |
|
Hi Greg.
I think the old photo of Dorset Street is looking East towards Commercial Street.
If you look to the left of the building in the distance, in Commercial street, you can just make out the shape of the trees in Itchy Park.
Regards Cludgy. |
Greg Hutton
Sergeant
Username: Greg
Post Number: 31
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 4:15 am: |
|
Hi Cludgy,
yes, I was unsure when I did the first merge at the begining of this thread, but when I found the clearer photo above I knew the direction was all wrong and had to re-do the merge.
Regards,
Greg |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 1069
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2004 - 5:07 pm: |
|
oooooooooooooh God! am merging myself into a corner here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Cheers
suzi |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 1406
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 5:14 pm: |
|
GOD!
merging a dangerous thing!
sx
|
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 690
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 9:31 pm: |
|
Rob Clack came up with an interesting observation this afternoon whilst we were walking the sites.
The buildings next to Itchy Park on the opposite side of Commercial Street were there at the time of the Ripper murders. With that knowledge, though we can safely assume the distance DOWN Dorset Street 13 Millers Court lay, we can now more clearly understand how far BACK from the street the room was, and it appears it was closer to current day public access than we at first assumed.
Currently, only about 4 feet of the far building overlaps Whites Row car park, which marks the southern boundary of the present day private road.
We know the alley leading into Millers Court was 20 feet.
By use of the Ordnance Survey map (this is the 1894 one, which - thanks to advice from Jane Coram - I can now scan at a huge DPI!) we can now get a better idea of how far forward the room actually was.
On this map, the end of the building opposite is about halfway across Dorset Street. The street appears to be as wide as the alley of Millers Court (ie 20 feet) which means the room would be about 30 feet north of the edge of the opposite building.
That would put 13 Millers Court approximately only 10 feet inside the current 1929 warehouse and the current facade would have been about halfway down the actual arched alleyway of Millers Court.
Just call me Sherlock.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
|
dorset street- old to new