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  | Archive through May 07, 2003 | Leanne Perry | 25 | 1 | 5-07-03 9:39 am |
| Archive through July 26, 2003 | Robert Charles Linfo | 25 | 1 | 7-26-03 6:52 am |
| Archive through August 17, 2003 | Glenn L Andersson | 25 | 1 | 8-17-03 7:10 am |
| Archive through December 07, 2003 | Ally | 25 | 1 | 12-07-03 7:44 am |
| Archive through February 23, 2004 | Monty | 25 | 1 | 2-23-04 11:33 am |
| Archive through April 16, 2004 | Glenn L Andersson | 25 | 1 | 4-16-04 4:42 pm |
| Archive through April 18, 2004 | Glenn L Andersson | 25 | 1 | 4-18-04 9:52 pm |
| Archive through April 21, 2004 | Glenn L Andersson | 25 | 1 | 4-21-04 1:20 pm |
| Archive through April 22, 2004 | Dan Norder | 25 | 1 | 4-22-04 6:04 pm |
| Archive through May 12, 2004 | Dan Norder | 25 | 1 | 5-12-04 6:16 pm |
| Archive through July 24, 2004 | Natalie Severn | 50 | 1 | 7-24-04 8:53 am |
| Archive through July 31, 2004 | Glenn L Andersson | 50 | 1 | 7-31-04 3:44 pm |
| Archive through August 17, 2004 | Robert Clack | 50 | 1 | 8-17-04 6:08 pm |
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Shelley Wiltshire
Detective Sergeant
Username: Shelley
Post Number: 81
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 6:35 pm: | 
|
Hi everyone,
Glenn, i can understand you saying that the victims would have been accosted by someone of their own social class ( but that doesn't depicte that someone from that class hasn't had better luck with finances and dresses a little smarter, look at some theives and drug dealers), i'm not disputing that it is possible for the killer to be at the exact same level as the vitims or either, for someone of a middle class stance either. I thought that in the case of Chapman, that the killer or the man she was witnessed with , that it was him that had shown her the back of Hanbury street? ( this would however if true, show that he knew that area well and was of the same class, as rooms were rented at Hanbury st).
Regarding Liz Stride in your post Glenn, i'd say you were right, but i don't recall any doctor's noting that she suffered from syphilis, although she had hospital treatment in Sweden, where she was known to the swedish police as a prostitute. Oh no ,Mercury treatment! ( very dangerous), that course of treatment sent some people mad.
Frank, Glenn's observations are correct, if Tabram had been a ripper victim (Tabram wasn't a sex killer's victim) he wouldn't have changed his signature that quickly in order for Tabram to have been a ripper victim, she would have sustained stabs and cut's small cuts, to either the vagina, anus or breast regions. Glenn's reasoning is common sense to the way the MO would be for a sex mutilator killer such as the ripper would work. Frank in your post to me, yes, i agree that a mental illness or severe mental illness has different impacts on each individual person ( that's why the catagories are Mild, Severe or Acute), but even if it is mild with a severe mental illness, the person cannot sustain a great level of mental awareness to avoid detection for a long periods of time such as the ripper( infact the ripper wasn't caught ). The killer you mention 'Chase' was caught as you say after 2 months, this is a short period of time, even Ed Gein a paranoid schizophrenic was caught after sloppy mess-ups because he didn't have enough reasoning and awareness to his crime to not get caught.
Regards
Shelley
Criminology Student (Advanced) |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2014
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 7:07 pm: |
|
Hi Shelley,
There are file records on Liz Stride in Gothenburg, Sweden, from her time as a prostitute in that city (at first as a legal, registred-by-the-state prostitute), and she was treated for syphilis there. This is before she came to England.
It's true that we can't find any notes about in the English documents, which I must admit surprises me. The English doctors even fail to acknowledge the strange deformity on her upper lip (which is visible on the photo).
However, her pre-English actions and her medical history in Sweden is documented.
Mercury treatment (I agree -- ouch!) was the only "cure" at the time and many came to suffer from mercury poisoning and quite a few died because of side-effects. Among the typical signs on mercury treatment or poisoning is black discolouring of the mouth cavity and loss of teeth. But then on the other hand; her loss of teeth could just as well be a result of lack of care and poverty. She was hardly alone in that respect.
Her dramatic story about her involvement in the Princess Alice disaster was a pure fairy-tale, however. She most certainly didn't get her teeth kicked out while escaping from the ship
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
|
Jeff Hamm
Inspector
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 447
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 8:12 pm: |
|
Hi Glenn,
Yah, I'm not all that convinced that Tabram was a Ripper victim. And I fully agree (as I'm sure I've said before) that it's not unreasonable to suggest that JtR might have been interrupted with Nichols. If so, that greatly reduces the idea of "steadily increasing mutilations". He may have intended much more with Nichols, but had to leave. Even with Annie Chapman, if he decided it was getting too light, or heard someone moving upstairs, he may have left before mutilating the face (assuming he does the face last, which is a big assumption I admit). Anyway, if those ideas hold water, the idea of "increasing severity" may simply reflect "time available".
That aside, given that it does appear that abdominal mutilations was the focus of the attacks, I agree that such a focus would probably have existed in the Ripper's mind before he started actually killing. Once he did kill, I think it odd that he would choose repeated stabbing as with Tabram. The crimes seem too focused on the mutilations, which then suggests the Ripper was focused on the mutilations. And this focus would start in fantasy before turning into a reality. One doesn't just find themselves killing someone and deciding "Oh well, in for a penny in for a pound" so to speak.
Basically, I was just trying to present something that might sort of work in terms of a "transition through deliberation"; meaning the Ripper decided after killing Tabram to go with cutting up rather than stabbing. The best I could come up with doesn't really sit well with me either. And that's why I tend not to include Martha Tabram as a Ripper victim. I can't quite make her fit all that well in a manner that meshes with the later crimes.
- Jeff |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2015
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 8:29 pm: |
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Hi Jeff,
I couldn't agree with you more, and I am very well aware of your real position on Tabram.
A good post, Jeff, and well put. Can't add much to that.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
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Shelley Wiltshire
Detective Sergeant
Username: Shelley
Post Number: 83
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 8:34 pm: |
|
Hi Glenn,
As to the mercury poisioning, didn't they also have loss of hair?
Regards
Shelley
Criminology Student (Advanced) |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2016
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 9:31 pm: |
|
Hi Shelley,
Quite possible. I haven't heard that one (destruction of the muscles and the neurological system are other unpleasant side-effects from mercury poisoning), but it wouldn't surprise me one bit.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on August 17, 2004)
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
|
Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 264
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 9:47 pm: |
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I seem to bring this up every few months whenever the subject comes up, but I will still maintain that throat cutting is not a natural usage of a knife. The instinctive moves with a knife are to stab or slash, so to carefully (and quite successfully) slit Polly Nichols throat would indicate some real thought if not actual previous experiments. In any case, I can not buy the notion a killer switched so completely from stabbing to throat slicing in so short a time as to suggest Tabram and Nichols were victims of the same man.
Don. |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2017
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 10:19 pm: |
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Exactly, Don. Another good point.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
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Shelley Wiltshire
Detective Sergeant
Username: Shelley
Post Number: 84
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 10:46 am: |
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Hi Glenn,
Do you think it's possible that when Pearly Poll went to make an identification of the 2 soldiers that she and Tabram were with, that they both or at least Poll did, serviced so many soldiers that she got the identification of the soldier's uniform's confused with one soldier from another? Also considering the fact that a lot of people can't get good enough descriptions for identification of people without the inclusion of dress anyway?
Regards
Shelley
Criminology Student (Advanced) |
Simon Owen
Detective Sergeant
Username: Simonowen
Post Number: 67
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 1:44 pm: |
|
Heres the reason why I think Martha Tabram was killed by the Ripper :
Martha Tabram - killed 7th August 1888
Mary Nichols - killed 31st August 1888
Annie Chapman - killed 8th September 1888
Liz Stride and Catharine Eddowes - killed 30th September 1888
Mary Kelly - killed 9th November 1888
There is a pattern at work here , the dates go 7 , 8 , 9 one way ( upwards ) and 31 , 30 the other way ( downwards ) in alternating fashion. In any case the Ripper either killed only at the start of the month or at the end of it.
Interestingly , nearly all serial killers kill at random dates rather than following a pattern ( see From Hell , Hinton p.144-145 ) , according to when the urge takes them or when an opportunity presents itself. This is why I think the Ripper was operating to some pre-ordained plan or scheme , rather than killing at random. |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1016
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 3:27 pm: |
|
Hi Simon,
At last I have read a member of this site actually agreeing that this series of murders was comitted by the perpetrator working to a pattern.
To my mind this is the most striking clue to the whole case, but of course the vast majority of the casebook believes it is sheer poppycock.
All coincedence.......
Regards Richard. |
Jeff Hamm
Inspector
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 448
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 4:29 pm: |
|
Hi Richard,
That's stating things a bit strongly, to be fair. Many people believe there is a pattern in the dates of the Ripper murders. The "pattern" of the dates people generally consider is that the murders are associated with weekends and holidays. This "pattern" has been used to suggest sailors (usually cattle boats), or someone in employment, etc., from the time of the murders themselves (What's his name who kept going on about the Portugese cattle boats? He kept records of boats and their dates in and out of London)
People are just highly skeptical of your 39 theory because they do not see a pattern in the way you calculate 39 (or, my 38's). What you propose is a very specific value around which the Ripper is supposed to operate. The pattern of weekend/holiday is less specific to be sure, but it also connects with real people's lives; when JtR, if employed, might have oppertunity to kill. He doesn't have to wait for some particular date and hope he finds a suitable victim and location, he just prowls around on the weekends. Still, even this idea may also wrong since Nichols was killed between Thursday and Friday, not really part of a weekend, and not associated with a Holiday. Kelly was also killed between Thursday and Friday, but Kelly's Friday was a Holiday; but that still leaves Nichols.
Either Nichols is special because she was the first, or even this weekend/holiday connection is a "false pattern". The apparent pattern may be more due to when victims were available then when Jack was available.
Anyway, to say that the vast majority see no pattern in the dates of the murders is inaccurate. The vast majority just do not see your 39 pattern.
- Jeff |
Shelley Wiltshire
Detective Sergeant
Username: Shelley
Post Number: 85
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 6:09 pm: |
|
Hi Glenn,
I've just been over some scribbled notes i have of the Tabram case, can you verify or correct anything that i have of the following:
Dr Timothy Robert Kileen LRCS (Ireland) 1885 Lic.K.Q.Coll.Phys (Ireland) 1886. Spent less than 2 years at the Surgery at 68 Brick lane. Called to examine the body of Tabram at 5.30am, estimated time of death 3.30am. Principle Targets of wounds, breasts, belly and private parts. At least 38 had been caused with an ordinary pen-knife.A wound on the sternum (breastbone) which would have been made by a dagger or Bayonet, the assailant was right-handed. ? I have sent an email to the metropolitain police for the historical side (rather than present day) for verification on this wounding etc with a pathologists opinion also. But if there were any wounding to the private parts, i would have to re-assess that she was a sex-killing, but it doesn't mean to say that she was the victim of the same killer as Nichols (also i have asked for any evidence as to whether she had cutting/slashing to any private parts etc)Given Martha's age she was over 30 years so no i would say that 2 weapons were used as you cannot cut bone with an ordinary knife (this i have already got some time ago from a Pathologist, whereas you can cut bone with an ordinary knife, but only on a subject that is under the age of 30 years. Got any records or info?
Regards
Shelley
Criminology Student (Advanced) |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2020
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 4:00 am: |
|
Hi Shelley,
I must admit the more detailed medical stuff is not really my thing; I can't say whether the killer was right-handed or not or used two different weapons. But I believe it's possible that two different weapons were used, if the initial opinion of a "pen-knife"-style of weapon inflicting the 38 wounds proves to be correct.
I myself have no literature on the matter to consult, I am afraid.
I for my part have never excluded the possibility that the murder on Tabram could be sexually oriented and not just a frenzied work of anger, but as you imply, this is not proof enough of that the Ripper did it. I believe there should have been more people around in the poor East End carrying those kind of criminal thoughts than only the Ripper.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on August 19, 2004)
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
|
Shelley Wiltshire
Detective Sergeant
Username: Shelley
Post Number: 93
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 5:46 am: |
|
Hi Glenn, Thanks for replying, i'd agree with what your saying is reasonable, i'll just have to wait and see from the metropolitan police what documentation they have and what they can tell me. It's just seeing my scribbled notes saying that the private parts were included in the wounding, that's got me thinking again and wondering what type of injury. By the way i've just had my course work marked so far to date, i got 98%.
Regards
Shelley
Criminology Student (Advanced) |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2021
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 6:34 am: |
|
Congratulations on the course, Shelley.
Keep me posted about what the Met has to say.
Could be that there are too few available facts to build any real opinion on, though.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
|
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1068
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 6:06 pm: |
|
Hi Glenn,I take it you dont mean that because the East End was poor it had to harbour criminal thoughts?
Best Natalie |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2024
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 6:35 pm: |
|
Hi Natalie,
Unfortunately poor districts with unemployment, overcrowding and a problematic social environment -- as those extremes that are displayed in some areas of East End in 1888 -- do have a tendency to become a greenhouse for all kinds of criminal elements and to harbour criminal activity as well as drunkedness, sickness and lunacy. This connection is very much yesterday's news and is evident in most places of similar character.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
|
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1070
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 6:56 pm: |
|
Hi Glenn,Thanks for the prompt reply.Yes its quite true that when there is a great disparity in the distribution of wealth as there was at this time and when this is compounded by little hope of a way out then crime often takes a grip.But I believe many of the people of Whitechapel who were poor and unemployed tried to
take themselves forward by collective action and that the Whitechapel of the 1880"s and 1890"s in particular held great significance in the Working Class Movement in the struggle to overcome that poverty.So in a sense I am saying that as well as having things about it that were indeed very negative like criminal behaviour of all kinds,there was concurrent with this a large section of that population that showed admirable resilience,tenacity and goodwill towards each other and can be said to have contributed a great deal to the labour movement and even to the founding of the Labour Party.This is particularly the case regarding the East End Jewish radicals.
Best Wishes
Natalie |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2026
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 7:40 pm: |
|
Hi Natalie,
I am not trying to put the people of Whitechapel down here. I think it's implied anyway that there were a lot of decent folks there as well, and most certainly the great majority.
But it is also true that in an environment like that displayed in 1888 Whitechapel and Aldgate (at least in some of the more notorious areas within those districts), you would come across any kind of strange characters: drunkards, beggars, violent people, street gangs, mad homeless people with no medication, thieves and most certainly also murderers. This is what happens in this kind of social context and it can't be disregarded just because of political correctness. You can see it today in other big cities, in areas much less struck by misery than London's 1888 East End.
Even if large groups of inhabitants indulged in positive activities -- which I am sure was the case -- a man of the Ripper's type or any other violent or demented sexual character, would hardly be out of place in such an environment. Especially at night with some of the streets filled with prostitutes and homeless people.
Not to mention the weekends and bank holidays when the area was visited by sailors and people working on the boats.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
|
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1073
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 20, 2004 - 4:00 am: |
|
Hi Glenn,again thanks for your reply.I agree this was indeed the case.It was a patchy area as regards social composition and still is.As you say I was pointing out that it had lots of decent folk there as well and they occupied then and still do a prominant place in our social history---much more so than any other area of London at that time or since.
Best Wishes Natalie |
symon
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 5:06 pm: |
|
Hi new to this so i apologise in advance if this is old hat.
Can anybody shed any light on this, Ann Morris claims to of seen Martha Tabram enter the White Swan public house at about 11:00pm however she makes no reference to her being with the two soldiers or Mary Connelly aka Pearly Poll, who says she was with the victim from 10:00pm till 11:45pm.
Would like to now if there is any reference to this as it may or may not help with the theory that these murders where not quite so random.
cheers
sy (sprog ripperologist) |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 575
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 12:27 pm: |
|
Apologies if this has been brought up before, but I can't find anything on this. Stephen Ryder sent me an article from the 24 August Morning Advertiser to transcribe and I saw the following passage on the Tabram murder:
"It is worthy of mention that the murder was committed on Bank Holiday night, and is almost identical with another murder which was perpetrated near the same spot on the night of the previous Bank Holiday. The victim in each case was a poor unfortunate, and their cowardly assailants have up till now evaded capture."
That doesn't sound like the Lipski case. I wonder if this is a press inaccuracy or if anyone has seen any other reference to a murder in the George-yard vicinity on Bank Holiday, 1887?
If true, this would be a case example of one of Alex Chisholm's "Statistical Shortfalls."
Dave
|
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 288
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 1:35 pm: |
|
Hi David,
I think this may be a reference to Emma Elizabeth Smith, who was attacked on Easter Monday 3 April 1888.
According to "Jack The Ripper, Summing up and Verdict", by Colin Wilson & Robin Odell, "she staggered into her lodgings at 18 George Street, Spitalfields, sometime that afternoon. She told the lodging house kepper that she had been attacked and robbed by four men in Osborn Street"
She died at the London Hospital next day.
Best Regards
John Savage |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 576
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 1:53 pm: |
|
Thanks, John. You have just corresponded with an American who's not overly familiar with English holidays. I'm sure you're right; I was thinking on an annual basis when there must have been a few Bank Holidays throughout the year.
Cheers,
Dave |
Stephen Lee
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 2:49 pm: |
|
I'm still undecided on Tabram, I used to discount her as a victim but the more I think about it the more unsure I am. If Tabram was a ripper victim then it stands to reason Annie Millwood was one also.
So, first victim is Millwood, who survives, not very succesfull for a first attempt. Next up Tabram, possibly going into 'overkill' if anything and stabs her 39 times, she of course doesn't survive. Then when he kills Polly he settles on a sure and quick way to dispatch his victims, strangulation and/or throat cutting. This gives him more time to mutilate.
I wouldn't read too much into MO's the Yorkshire ripper (Sutcliff) used Knives, hammers and screwdrivers at different times.
As I said I'm still undecided about Tabram (and Millwood) but i've not neglected them completely as I had done in the past. |
Neil K. MacMillan
Detective Sergeant
Username: Wordsmith
Post Number: 115
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 12:41 pm: |
|
Stephen:
I too, am undecided about Tabram but I am inclined to think she was not a victim if for no other reason then he/she (The murderer) would be less inclined to so dramatically shift the method of murder.
Alas, unless something comes up after all this time that can be proved conclusively, we will never know.
For all we know our boy may have been arrested on another charge and the police knowing who that had but unable to prove it got him put away for the rest of his life. Again that is a theory and not necessarily mine. Just a thought. If Martha Tabram is a victim of JTR then we need to review all the evidence again and look for indices that the killer had a much higher body count. Neil |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2603
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 12:55 pm: |
|
Neil,
I completely agree with you.
Although I have lately been stressing the point, that she probably was NOT a Ripper victim (which I still believe she wasn't), my opinion on this swings back and forth on occasion.
And as Stephen says, if she was, then I find it most credible that Millwood also may have been.
I think, though, that the Ripper's method seems very deliberate and well-conceived. I find it hard to believe that he just three weeks prior to Nichols indulged in frenzied stabbing (and no strangulation) and then suddenly three weeks later pops up with this new method from nowhere. But I could be wrong, it just doesen't ring true in my ears.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Well, do you... punk?"
Dirty Harry, 1971
|
Philip Hutchinson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 1:37 pm: |
|
I recently posted a view of the site of George Yard Buildings from the same spot as Stewart Evans took one in 1967 (he kindly gave me a copy which I used to get the right place) which I posted elsewhere on Casebook. I thought it would be an idea if I placed the 'then and now' shots here too. I have taken my recent photo and cropped it so it matches exactly with the old one. I've also deliberately removed the colour so comparison can be more standardised. The big surprise for me was how big it actually was - the door is further down the street than I'd expected. If I had the knowhow I would love to layer one shot on the other.
 |
Jeff Leahy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:38 am: |
|
Have been following your postings on Tabram and Millwood with some interest on a couple of threads.
The question that comes into my mind is what constitutes a frenzied attack?
The Ripper may have cut the throats of his victims in a fairly cool and calculating manor. But particular in the case of Eddows he must have carried out his muterlations with considerable haste and speed. And are you saying that the mutilation of Mary Kelly wasn't a fenzied attack?
What if the attack to the female sexual organs was the main thrust of the rippers MO. However having made a few attempts (Annie Millwood) where his victims simply took flight or struggled to much, he decided, or learned, that it was simply easier to kill or paralize the victim first by cutting the throat.
He would then find that as the victim gave no resistance he simply had more time to carry out the mutilations he desired. Purposefully if not fenzied.
Also does the speed of the fenzy (rpm's or stabs per second) alter the shape and definition of the cuts or marks to the body. Can you tell by looking at Tabrams injurries exactly the speed of the assault? Can we at the same hypothosis work out the attack or cutting rate required to destroy Mary Kelly's body?
If you were trying out what worked best, and you werent an experienced Butcher or Doctor. Perhaps you'd try out a couple of knives to see what worked best (as in Tabram.) Even experiment with an Axe (as in Kelly)
Someone suggested Jack was learning his craft, experimenting as he went along. I dont think the three inch cut to Tabrams bowl was an accident but the starting point. She had simply put up to much of a struggle and he figured he had to silence his victim quicker?
Once he perfected this the attacks RPM needant be as quick. He could concintrate on what he really wanted.
Another thing what if the police did make a mistake and Nichols was stabbed and chased in Brady St and eventually finished in Bucks Row. Would this not start with an MO similar to Millwoods and Tabrams and end like the other cannalonical victims?
The MO changed as the Ripper went along. The only questions we rearly need to ask are, by how much and to what purpose.
Jeff
|
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2803
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 1:02 pm: |
|
Jeff,
When I am talking about "frenzy" I don't refer to speed as such, but to rage!
The Tabram wounds seem to me inflicted by a person that is desperately filled with sheer rage (and maybe in combination with drunkedness) and takes it out on her with stabbing, rather than someone who -- like the Ripper -- is performing a methodologic post-mortem signature with more or less ritual contents. Stabbing does not only indicate another MO, but also quite another emotional reason for the attack. And therefore in my mind possibly another killer. So speed in itself has nothing to do with it.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Well, do you... punk?"
Dirty Harry, 1971
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Jeff Leahy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 6:15 am: |
|
Hi GS,
I take your point about the ritualization of the MO. This is most pronounced in Eddows killing. The strange marks cut to her face....but these have developed considerably from the Nichols murder.
So lets sit on safe ground a say Jack only killed Three. Nichols, Chapman and Eddows.
Even hear we can see considerable development of the MO over a period of say six weeks. He kills, he brudes, he fantisizes and each time, he comes ever closer to his ultimate goal (Which I beleive was the Kelly murder).
So possible explinations could be (NOT saying they are) that Jack is suffering from a mental illness which means his mental state is in steady decline, perhaps when he kills Tabram he is still trying to cling to some sort of Reality (strange though that statement may seem). Angar and frustration boil over. OR perhaps our Jack is a pioson addict, which would give similar highs to someone who is drunk...perhaps he just over did the dossage the night he does for Tabram (though that is unlikey- I think if Jack takes poison he knows very well what high to produce).
But I guess what I'm saying is whether you say rage or fenzy its really the same thing.
Are you trying to say that who ever killed the excepted Canolonical 5, had some knowledge of anatomy and worked like a post mortum, wear as Tabram's killing was just a random assault by a drunken soldier?
I see some of what your saying, but for me who ever killed Tabram was not your average drunk out on a Saturday night. Check out similar drunken attacks with knives after Kelly's death. Apart from Rose Millet there is nothing of this scale. 39 stab wounds is a soldier with one hell of a hang over....
Jeff |
Jeff Leahy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 12:32 pm: |
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Just another thought on the Tabram killing. In another thread someone mentioned the positioning of the bodies. It had been pointed out to me that Kelly's head turned towards the window her back to the wall, her knee's bent and raised a little, may have been of importance. Am I correct in assuming all the bodies rested near gate, wall or partician. All had their heads turned away from Gate, wall or partician? Legs apart slightly raised.
Tabram however was killed on a landing.
Is it known if her face was turned away from the nearest wall? Were legs apart or together?
Was the body positioned in any way similar to that of the canalonical five?
Just a thought. The mad soldier who gets drunk and commits a one off brutal murder on someone he doesn't know doesn't make sence to me. If Tabram was stabbed 39 times it was the Ripper or someone who knew her and had a big grudge.
The positioning of the bodies, given that Jack firstly strangles lowers the body to the floor, mutilates the genitals then cuts the throat (possibley trying to remove head) has always struck me as significant.
I think Tabram was a victim. Of a Ripper sliding into mental illness on a very fast curve. For me the ripper either dies or is locked up shortly after the Kelly murder. But thats just my opinion.
Jeff |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2912
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 12:45 pm: |
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Hi Jeff,
"So lets sit on safe ground a say Jack only killed Three. Nichols, Chapman and Eddows.
Even hear we can see considerable development of the MO over a period of say six weeks. He kills, he brudes, he fantisizes and each time, he comes ever closer to his ultimate goal (Which I beleive was the Kelly murder).
So possible explinations could be (NOT saying they are) that Jack is suffering from a mental illness which means his mental state is in steady decline..."
I agree with this to some degree. Yes, we do see some signs of development also in the three canonical victims you refer to -- and I personally interpret this as a sign of an accelerating mental detoriation on the killer's part. I believe the Ripper was more psychotic and psychopathic, as with most disorganized killers.
There are two problems, though:
a) the killer of Tabram doesen't seem to have the same goal as the Ripper; Tabram's murder displays rage and impulse, possibly by a drunken over-aggressive client or soldier, in my view.
There really are no twisted sexual fantasies displayed in Tabram's wounds and no real focus on the genitalias (most of the stabs are directed towards the throat and the brest or upper abdomin), while in the three canonical Ripper victim's the womb is clearly -- in my mind -- the target, and sexual/delusional fantasies the psychological background of the murders.
Furthermore, even though we see a slight mental detoriation in the Ripper, he is rather methodical throughout in his targeting of body parts and the mutilation, in contrast to the irrational and fierceful stabbing of Tabram.
b) Regarding the detoriation of the Ripper, his MO changes are less dramatic than the change between Tabram and Nichols. It is not at all the same thing. There is a slight escalation in the Ripper's mutilations (like the facial marks on Eddowes), but the intentions and the focus are still identical in those three victims. It differs quite dramatically from Tabram.
In my mind, Tabram's murderer(s) and the Ripper is clearly not the same person.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Jeff Leahy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 8:54 am: |
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Hi again Glen we seem to be arguing the same point on two different threads..I'm afraid this is probably becuase I'm not a memeber and my posts take a couple of days to come through.
Please check my other post...also I'm not convinced by your no sexual intent argument, there were stabs to the genitals and breasts. The stabbing to the throat reminisant of attack to Annie Millwood.
I no I've contradicted myself a little by pointing out that there was more than one killer at work in the area..but I think if Jack was a local man, which for me he was, then he didnt spring from nowhere.
Many thanks Glenn.....Jeff |
Frank van Oploo
Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 448
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 11:21 am: |
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Hi Jeff,
Just two remarks from my part.
First, it isn't clear to which side Nichols' head was turned (if it was turned) and Catherine Eddowes' head was resting on her left shoulder when she was found, meaning that her face was directed towards the wall. So, I don't think it necessarily means anything which way his victims' heads were turned.
Secondly, it wasn't Annie Millwood that was stabbed in the throat, but Ada Wilson.
All the best,
Frank
"Every disadvantage has it's advantage."
Johan Cruijff
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Jeff Leahy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 8:01 am: |
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Hi Frank
I've posted my veiws about an evolving Jack on the other thread. Thanks for the info on Eddows. I thought that her head was facing into Mitre sq so thanks for putting me straight.
Sorry if I keep mixing Annie and Ada names up, hopefully you understood my reasoning on why these attacks could have been early Ripper attacks in an Evolution process.
Cheers jeff |
Neil K. MacMillan
Detective Sergeant
Username: Wordsmith
Post Number: 128
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 9:24 pm: |
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just an idea to ponder.One I believe I mentioned before. I just finished the chapter on Martha Tabram for my novel. I rewrote to have a different murderer for Tabram The culprit? An unnamed sailor whom she offends by trying to lift his wallet. Alas it is a THEORY that at this point will never likely be proved but it acounts for the time differential, the different style from the other murders and in the novel I believe makes good reading (Yes,I know modesty is a virtue but Tabram was a hard chapter to write) Comments on the feasability? Neil |
Jane Coram
Inspector
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 352
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 10:12 pm: |
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HI Neil,
This is not about the overall idea of the chapter - just a silly little point that you probably have thought of already. It was only that you used the term wallet. I am not saying that they didn't have wallets in 1888, of course they did, but a sailor would probably have either had his coins loose in his pocket or perhaps in a leather purse....I wish I could draw it for you.....it was a fold over kind of purse with a tongue that slotted into a loop, but it was quite secure........The average sailor would probably have had no more than a couple of shillings on him, if that, at the beginning of the evening, and by the end of a nights drinking, probably very little if anything.......
Just a thought ........you probably were aware of this, but it might make it a bit more authentic, if you can research it in more detail.......trivia like that really make for a more convincing read.
Hope the novel goes well, you're a braver man that I am........well actually I'm a woman, but you know what I mean..........
All the Best
Jane
xxxxxx |
Neil K. MacMillan
Detective Sergeant
Username: Wordsmith
Post Number: 130
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2005 - 1:02 pm: |
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Hi Jane;
Atually, wallets were in common usage during the American Civil War twenty-three years earlier. Depending on who the sailor shipped with would likely depend on if he carried a purse or a wallet. As to money, the amount the sailor in question would have would depend very heavily on three factors. How long he had been ashore, whom and where he was spending his time and the frugailty of the man himself. It was also dependent on the man's position on the ship. Obvoiusly a ship's officer would have more to spend (and worry about) than an ordinary seaman. And I am familiar with what you speak of. In addition to beeing an ameteur Ripperologist, I am an American Civil War reenactor. One of my ideas about Jack the Ripper is that he may have been a sailor most likely a ship's surgeon. Thanks for the input by the way. It is appreciated and it's nice to know that people still read things instead of scan them. Kindest regards, Neil |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2130
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 1:55 pm: |
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Looking through press reports prior to the ‘Whitechapel Murders’, I note with interest in The Times of August 24th 1888 it is reported that Martha Tabram was commonly taken into custody by the police when suffering from fits caused through her drinking. (Evidence of Inspector Reid.)
I hadn’t seen this before, and it does put me in mind of Eddowes’ imitating a fire engine and then collapsing to spend the night in the cells.
As well as that, I do ponder why there was so much question as to her true identity when she was obviously so well-known to the police?
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1980
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 2:50 pm: |
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I am pretty certain that all five of the so called canonical victims were alcoholics---in every sense although I know that only the person themselves is allowed to call themselves "alcoholics" according to those who should know best- Alcoholics Anonymous.
But to my way of thinking its of crucial importance because if they were suffering from the later stages of such an illness, this does indeed tend to come to come to the attention of the police-in contrast to say a heavy drinker who would not repeatedly be creating public scenes as the illness progressed.
Also ,and not to labour this too much but Supt.Charles Cutbush
WAS personally involved in this particular case----the first to cause shock waves through Whitechapel in the year 1888.
Another thing that has interested me about the Tabram murder is that it was ,like the murder of Annie Chapman in a house where homeless people were quite often found sleeping on the landing-and probably where some "business" was known to take place from time to time by the police on beats and various neighbours etc
Well spotted though AP. |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 629
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 5:14 pm: |
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I have just been rereading John Douglas' book, Mindhunter. In it he carefully distinguishes between MO and signature.
He says that signature is something the offender emotionally needs to do (ie. the mutilations) and therefore does not change (except to escalate).
The MO is the means to the end. It is the method he develops so that he can act out the signature. MO can and does change with time as he refines his technique. Jack wanted them dead ASAP so he could begin the mutilations.
It would not be impossible for Tabram to have been done by Jack. The main difference with Tabram was that her throat was stabbed instead of slashed. If that was MO then he apparently "improved" it later. |
Jeff Leahy
Inspector
Username: Jeffl
Post Number: 167
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 01, 2005 - 12:51 pm: |
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Well said Diana and a point I have argued with Glen at length.
Did Jack just appear fully formed, commit 5 murders and disappear.
or did he evolve?
I think that study of the 5 suggests development of MO and that Tabram could fit that patern.
The trouble is, however you stack the cards, there does appear to be a disproportionate number of murders and serial killers on the street in 1888.
Also think Annie Milwood fits this pattern.
Jeff |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3475
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 01, 2005 - 1:17 pm: |
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Well, it is not impossible that Martha may have been an early Ripper victim -- I can't rule that out -- but personally I don't believe she was for three simple reasons:
-- to address Diana's good points about signature and MO (on which I agree), Martha's murder doesn't really contain any post-mortem signature, if one dismiss the posing of the body. Just random stabbing probably deriving from rage and frenzy (judging from the wounds). In Nichol's murder some time later we already see a killer with a finished signature and a careful method out of nowhere that is quite far away from the murder of Tabram. In my mind that doesn't add up.
-- Two weapons appear to be used (although that can not be fully established as a fact), and nor the weapon(s) or the method have any similarity to the Ripper killings (even if we include the possibility of escalation).
-- In Tabram's case, we have two (or at least one) reasonable and credible suspects, namely the soldiers. I am not basing this on the tenious statements of Pearly Poll, but on the fact that a PC found a grenadier who, for unclear reasons other than "waiting for his friend", was hanging around outside George Yard buildings the same night (and the timing of this could fit her killing). I see no reason to dispute this.
Common sense dictates to me, that those are the deductions to be made from it, although we of course never can be certain. People can agree with me or disagree. I don't care. But those are my two cents from reading the evidence.
All the best
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Jeff Leahy
Inspector
Username: Jeffl
Post Number: 168
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 9:13 am: |
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Hi Glen and always a good two cents which I dont disagree with either. However there are some other pionts that I feel could be added:
Aswell as the body position we have at least five stabs to the genetal area. The location is in the heart of ripper territory and the timing just a few weeks before the Ripper crimes would seem to fit the ripper pattern.
Although there is the suggestion of two knives we can not rule out the possibility of other instruments being used in Mary Kelly attack.
The attacks on Ada Wilson and Annie Milwood fit the Tabram pattern. Wild stabbing to the Throat in Adas case and stabs to lower torsow with clarsp knife in Annie's. The Tabram murder could be seen as an esculation from these two.
Who ever murdered Tabram was covered in blood. A logical conclusion for the killer may have been to find a less messy approach and one which stopped victims struggling. If the killers main piont of interest was stabbing at the genitals then throat stabbing may just have been a means to an ends.
The Ripper only had to introduce strangling his victim first lowering then to the ground and cutting their throat inorder to avoid the previous spills of blood.
This completed he would have had more time than in the previous attacks to focus on his real desire...mutilation of the genital area. The esculation may just be a result of better method.
His victims would have stuggled less and the attacks more successful than Ada ,Annie and Martha. Simply by adding stangulation to the original MO. One simple step for the killer but it would produce a large jump in MO.
The killer also would have been less agitated in his attack on Nicols because he was getting what he wanted rather than struggling with an unhelpful victim.
Just a thought Glen.
Also, and I'm playing devils advocate here, we cant completely rule out the possibility that the two soldiers were involved in the other attacks, as you know some theories suggest more than one attacker, it isn't impossible.
love from Londons East end
Jeff
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R.J. Palmer
Chief Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 659
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 2:29 pm: |
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In Tully's book he writes that Elizabeth Mahony had purchased fish & chips at the Chandler's shop near Thrawl Street, and even adds the detail that it only cost a farthing. I have been unable to find any contemporary source for this detail. Can anyone shed any light on where he might have got this detail about fish and chips? Tully was a serious researcher, so I don't wish to disregard it out of hand. Thanks for any serious response. RP
(Message edited by rjpalmer on July 20, 2005) |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4709
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 12:20 am: |
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Hi RJ
I don't know where the fish and chips came from. Sugden has the chandler's shop in nearby Thrawl St.
Robert |
Neil K. MacMillan
Detective Sergeant
Username: Wordsmith
Post Number: 141
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 4:24 pm: |
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I would think if two weapos were used, then Martha was killed by two assailants and I would take a look at the gang that was extorting money from the soiled doves of Whitechapel.
I still believe that Martha had only one assailant and that the weapon broke accounting for the difference in the wounds.
The problem with the soldiers in Pearly POlls statement is the time differential. The grenadier is another story. I discount a soldier or a Royal Navy sailor for the simple fact that they would have to account for themselves to the military authorities and a uniform stained with the amount of blood that would have been present would draw very pointed questions from their Sergeant-Major and officers and in a mighty big hurry. A merchant sailor particularly a ship's doctor could pass it off a bit eassier I would think. I'm just theorizing here and hopefully it stimulates a good conversation. Neil |
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