|
 |
 |
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
    
Debra Arif
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 6:38 am: | 
|
I forgot to add to my previous posting ( which will no doubt appear after this one on the board)
I was interested in Bridget Kelly as I found a possible Davies/Kelly marriage in Wrexham Wales involving a Bridget;
Surname Forename(s) Church / Chapel / Register Office Registers At Reference
KELLY Bridget Wrexham, Civil Marriage Wrexham C.B. WM/022/71
1878 NAME OF BUILDING, CHURCH OR REGISTER OFFICE AND LOCALITY
Wrexham, Civil Marriage
Surname Forename(s) Reference
DAVIES Edward WM/022/71
ROBERTS Mary WM/022/71
SENIOR Edwin WM/022/71
two possibles though as usual! |
Debra Arif
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 4:29 am: |
|
I don't know if anyone is interested, but thought I should post this follow up.
It looks like Bridget Kelly married the other guy on the page... Edwin Senior, I found an Edwin senior with a wife Bridget of the right age and bithplace in the 1881 census,although she was not in Wales, I couldnt find a Bridget Davies that fitted....oh well, I can forget about her now! |
Paul Williams
Sergeant
Username: Wehrwulf
Post Number: 43
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 5:29 pm: |
|
At Broughton Colliery Cottages, Brymbo, Denbighshire, Wales in 1881 a Mary Kelly, born Ireland, 1864 lived with her parents, seven brothers and a sister. The neighbours included a family of Davies, son Jonathon, born 1856 who worked as an engine driver at the colliery.
|
Paul Williams
Sergeant
Username: Wehrwulf
Post Number: 44
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 6:19 pm: |
|
I couldn't find that Jonathan or Jonathon Davies in the 1891 census but in 1901 there is a Jonathan Davies, born c 1856 in Minera, Denbighshire, living in Brymbo. He was an engine driver so could well be the same person. The Jonathan Davies living next door to the Kellys in 1881 was born in Wrexham. |
David Knott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dknott
Post Number: 100
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 6:25 pm: |
|
Paul, it is the same person - he is on the 1891 census as Jon.
The Mary Kelly, I am fairly sure, went on to marry a Griffith Jones, so she's not our gal, contrary to what the authors of 'Uncle Jack' would have us believe!
David |
Gareth W
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 6:43 pm: |
|
That particular 1856 Jonathan Davies appears to be still alive and kicking, married (to Sarah Ann) in the 1901 census. Still residing in the Brymbo area, and still working at a coalmine, his occupation is given as a "Stationery [sic] Engine Driver". Quite how much effort it takes to drive a stationary engine I don't know, but it sounds far cushier than being blown up in a mine ;o)
Of course, the fact that this Jonathan Davies doesn't appear to be MJK's spouse (if we believe her story) doesn't mean that this Brymbo clan aren't MKJ's actual family. However, I think with a dad called "Hubert" even Barnett in his bereaved, bereft and allegedly echolaliac state would hardly have confused his name with "John".
An interesting find nonetheless, and worth digging a bit more I fancy. |
Gareth W
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 6:46 pm: |
|
Paul,
Minera is actually IN Wrexham ;o) |
Edgy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 11:41 am: |
|
Initial thoughts......
Do we only have Joe Barnett & MJK's word that this was,in fact,her real name?
|
Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 653
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 3:44 pm: |
|
Edgy,
Unfortunately, that is pretty much the case. Most of the "facts" about MJK stem from what she told Joe and he later repeated to the police and press.
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
|
JFM
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 11:58 pm: |
|
If the killer was JTR, then the facial mutilations seem most likely to be part of a ritual. There appears to be no point in him trying to conceal Kelly's identity. After all, she was killed in her own room, she had her own clothes on, and she was also likely to be missed afterwards.
However, if the killer was someone else... not that I'm advocating any such theory, but here goes:
The facial mutilations could have been inflicted either as a copy-cat behaviour (as mentioned earlier in this thread), or it could have been an act to conceal the dead woman's identity.
Consider this for a possibility/speculation:
If my understanding is correct, there are as of yet no matching records of any Mary (Jane) Kelly. Thus the assumption that it was a fake name, in which case her real name must have been something else.
Perhaps the facial mutilations were inflicted in order to conceal the fact that the woman who had been passing herself of as Mary Jane Kelly was in fact Ms X. That is, she was made unrecognizable in order for her to remain Mary Jane Kelly. Otherwise, pictures of her face might have gotten around in the papers and she could have been recognized as someone else.
Just some food for though. I have no real reason to discount MJK from the canonical list.
---
jfm |
Tris Bunker
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 4:07 pm: |
|
I like your post, JFM, and it's something that I have thought along the lines of for quite a few years (as a few people who are official members here)
On thing i ould like to see is an official thread explaining why we are wrong in our thinking instead of just telling us we are stupid in our way of thought. |
Maria Giordano
Inspector
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 463
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, September 11, 2005 - 12:15 pm: |
|
Tris- who can say if you are wrong and certainly I wouldn't call your ideas stupid (nor do I think most "official members" would).
That said, since all we can do is speculate and theorize from the very scant evidence available I think it's sensible to use the Occam's razor position of trying to keep things as simple as possible.
So before I think the facial mutilations were to cover up her identity, I have to think that they were,along with the butchering of the body, just because he wanted to and had the time.
Mags
|
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 871
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 11, 2005 - 5:19 pm: |
|
The possibility of a Fenian (Irish republican) involvement in the JtR murders has been discussed before. there seems to be a link between the knives used in the phoenix Park (Dublin) assassination in the early 1880s and the knife - reputed to have been used by Jack - now in the possession of Don Rumbelow.
Such a link, which might explain the Home Secretary's cryptic remark that Munro (an Irish specialist) might give Scotland Yard a "hint" and Munro's later mention of a "hot potato". It could also be one explanation if Melville Macnaghten's memorandum was intended as a red-herring (not that I think the memorandum need be anything other than what it claims to be).
Now, in those circumstances, if MJK was some sort of agent with a false identity, then there might be reason to EITHER cover up her departure by killing someone else in her place (hence the face had to be destroyed); OR, MJK herself was killed and mutilated to cover her true identity.
Now that murder, in those circumstances, does not have to be part of the Ripper series. There are several features (indoors, level and nature of mutilation, age of the victim) that COULD make it different to Jack's usual MO. I repeat COULD.
On the other hand, all the murders might have been carried out by a Fenian - perhaps one who know MJK - who was then removed.
I suggest this not as some new theory, or an old one in which I believe, but simply as a possible explanation of several features of the case, that ties in with JFM's ideas.
Phil |
Jeff Leahy
Inspector
Username: Jeffl
Post Number: 226
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 6:34 am: |
|
Sorry to butt in Phil on a tangent, but I'd always thought Donald Rumblows knife was rumoured to have been found after the police searched Druitt's city practice. Have I the wrong end of a story here?
yours Jeff |
Crimes of Passion
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, September 12, 2005 - 12:36 pm: |
|
Does anyone find it funny that Barnett was made to identify Mary's body there and then?
Crimes. |
Crimes of Passion
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 7:37 pm: |
|
To anyone,
Was it the form to i.d. bodies at the scene of crime (by a partner or close relative)?
Regards, Crimes.
|
Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 82
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 5:33 am: |
|
I have been sitting on this 1861 Welsh census entry for a while as I was intending to try and trace the Kelly' couple I found through further entries but was unable to.
I thought I would post it here in case any one else would like to follow it up, I am not sure it will lead anywhere but who knows!
The Kelly couple in question are listed with no children but as Mary was supposedly not born until c 1863 and we do not know her position in the family ie oldest, youngest etc. I was thinking they could be possible candidates for her parents.
What I found interesting about them was that the head John Kelly aged 35 was an iron miner b Kildare Ireland and his wife Bridget 30 was born possibly in Limerick ( ancestry gives Limrell as the transcription, does Limrell exist?)
John Kelly
Age: 35
Relation: head
male
born Kildare Ireland
occupation iron miner
Bridget Kelly
Age: 30
Estimated birth year: abt 1831
Relation: Wife
Gender: Female
Where born: Limrell (Limerick?), Ireland
Civil Parish or Township: Ystraddyfodwg
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales
Source information: RG9/4063
Registration district: Merthyr Tydfil
Sub-registration district: Aberdare
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
|
Christopher Lowe
Sergeant
Username: Clowe
Post Number: 22
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 6:53 am: |
|
Debra, as far as I know there is no such place as 'Limrell'. It does not read like an Irish language place name. It could be bad anglicisation of an Irish word or a bad transcription. |
Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 83
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 7:48 am: |
|
Hi Chris
That is why I thought it may say Limerick or may be a mishearing of Limerick by the census taker.
On the page are several Irish people and in all cases their place of origin is given in the format country Ireland and then a county in Ireland.
There are only the following counties in Ireland that begin with L,Laois,Leitrim,Limerick,Longford,Louth and this entry definitely begins Lim...
Of course it could be an exception to the others on the page and not be an Irish county at all but a place within a county.
Chris do you live in Ireland? do you recognise the placename at all?
(Message edited by dj on September 18, 2005) |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5001
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 10:01 am: |
|
Hi Debra
There was a Bridgett Kelly, age 43, widow lodging at Swansea in 1871. Maybe John died.
Robert |
Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 84
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 10:39 am: |
|
Thanks Robert
Yes that could be her, if it is then they either had no children or their children were all grown up and left home before 1861.
Not to worry, I am just having a major file clearout from my computer, I have more Cutbush and Kelly material than even I realised.
I was trying a different angle at the time and looking at possible families that fit MJK's story, without them necessarily having a daughter Mary at home with them.
If anyone is interested I have come across an 1881 entry I didn't know I had found as well, not sure how far I got with it
A John Kelly b Ireland, living in Sandycroft Flint Wales and described as foreman of an engineering works.
wife, four sons and one daughter on the 1881 entry.
I did add a note at the time that there was a Sandycroft Foundry, mining machinery manufacturers
in Sandycroft, Flintshire....does that count as an iron works?
Debra |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5002
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 11:11 am: |
|
It sounds like it, Debra.
I just wish Kelly had chained herself to the Prime Minister in her youth, instead of occasionally being fined for drunkenness. We might be able to track her then.
Robert |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2962
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 11:22 am: |
|
Gosh!!!
Could be Llanelli!!! and then we'd be onto something....Seem to remeber my Uncle Jack telling me that!!!!
Robert- Fabulous image!!!!! feel a drawing coming on!!!!! Suz |
Christopher Lowe
Sergeant
Username: Clowe
Post Number: 23
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 1:10 pm: |
|
Debra,
the only place name I can think of in Ireland which looks like that is Limerick.
And yes I am from Ireland |
Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 85
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 1:18 pm: |
|
ooh!! so near... yet so far...
Found the above John Kell(e)y in the 1871 census b in Armagh, hiding in Chester, he was a gent. foreman of an engineering works there too.
He seems to have been all over Lancashire and Cheshire, going to Wales after 1871.
He even had one daughter named Mary Jane who was born in Dublin!... sadly she's much too old to be MJK!!!
I just had to satisfy my curiosity, I'll stop now! |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5004
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 1:25 pm: |
|
Hi Christopher
Do you know whether Irish immigrants' place of entry was determined by the area of Ireland they were coming from, i.e would someone from Limerick be more likely to have entered the UK via wales than, say, Liverpool?
Robert |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2964
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 4:23 pm: |
|
Robert
Cardiff was the major port here and thats where the work was! Also Swansea...a lot of 'bosses' had Irish names aka Murphy!!! Just asked hubby re this and he assures me this is true although not remotely interested in 'the case' was brought up in Swansea and declares this to be the truth!
Suzi |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2965
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 4:25 pm: |
|
Odd that its Cardiff though!!! Thereby starts our Mary story!! Hmmmmmmmmmmm
Suzi |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5007
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 4:33 pm: |
|
Thanks Suzi. Where's that drawing?
Robert |
Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 87
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 11:12 am: |
|
Robert, that is a very good question.
I read once that there was a large influx of females workers from Kerry to the iron works in Wales c 1871 ( around the time MJK's family arrived in Wales if there is anything to her story.)
As Suzi says there were a lot of arrivals at Cardiff after the famine, in 1847 the majority of Irish arriving in Cardiff were from Cork, figures quoted were that ' only one in a hundred were from outside of county Cork' most of them were en-route to London though.
I have seen it written that once the Irish arrived in England, Scotland or Wales they never or rarely returned home to Ireland, but from some quick reading that doesn't necessarily seem to be the case, a lot of Irish came over for seasonal work and then returned home to pay off their debts.
You have got me started on something else Robert!
Debra
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5012
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 2:18 pm: |
|
Hi Debra
Another thing is, I wonder whether particular jobs were actually advertised for, by British companies, in Irish newespapers? In an age when getting the best price possible for something, and paying the least price possible for something, were seen as almost a moral duty, firms might have counted on the Irish doing the work for less than the British workers were demanding.
Robert |
Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 88
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 2:54 pm: |
|
Hi Robert
It just so happens that I have access to some Irish newspapers from various periods after 1847, seems to be a lot in them about the Irish workforce in Wales and England and the problems their cheap labour brought, but have just skimmed through them so far.
I'll email you, I have a site that might interest you! ( not as suggestive as it sounds!)
Debra
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5014
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 3:18 pm: |
|
OK Debra. Maybe if we could find out the names of any ironworks advertising for Irish workers around 1863-5...that's if she wasn't telling a load of fibs, of course...
Robert |
Jeff Leahy
Inspector
Username: Jeffl
Post Number: 230
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 6:19 am: |
|
Well I shall be following your thread with some interest. Largely because of my surname. All I really know about my great Grand father is that his family came from just out side Cork. And would have left Irland about the time of the famine. Also that he played piano in bars in the Eastend about the time of the Ripper. My sister returned to Cork recently and discovered the name LEAHY means hero. My mothers family have welsh conections and it has often made we wonder what route my family ended up in London. Realize this is not much to do with the Ripper but would be facinated if you find any interesting adverts in Cork papers.
Jeff |
Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 89
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 9:35 am: |
|
Hi Jeff
I think the Irish who came over as a direct result of the famine in 1847 had no choice really as they were starving, and wouldn't have been lured by English newspaper adverts, that came later I think.
If you are interested in reading accounts of the famine and it's effects in Cork, email me and I can give you a link to the whole of The Cork Examiner for 1847, and The Illustrated News, there are some harrowing accounts and illustrations but very interesting from a family history point of view.
I would have posted the link on here but it is so big it causes the messages to expand too far widthways.
Debra
|
Mr Poster
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 9:01 am: |
|
The Gaelic for Limerick is Luimnigh or Luimneach, the former being pronocunced as
"Limni" which could perhaps be misheard for Limrill although the graphic reproduced by Debra J. Arif looks a lot to me like Limnill maybe which is possibley phoenetically closer to "Limni". The latter is pronounced "Limnuck" which doesnt sound like Limrill at all. The difference is spelling is, I think, if I remember my Irish lessons, the spelling of the guttural "ch" sound at the end of the word which is sometimes equivalent to "gh" in which the guttural sound is softened.
Mr P. |
Mr Poster
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 6:16 am: |
|
does Limrell exist?
Nope, but it is possible that an English/Welsh speaker could not spell/say the name of an Irish village in Gaelic and just wrote in Limrell. But off hand I have never heard of a town or village that even phonetically could produce Limrell. Then again, there are plenty of villages that existed then but dont now.
The other possiblity is that many Irish give their birth/residence location as a townland which may not be a town or village in which case there could be a townland called Limrell (which will not appear on a modern map) that I havent heard of but that does exist.
Interestingly enough, there was one part of Cumbria known as Little Ireland due to the huge influx of Irish iron miners after 1780 so the fact that an iron miner would move to Wales would fit in.
Mr P. |
Mr Poster
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 7:57 am: |
|
Me again
Heres a breakdown of McCarthy households (not people) in each county for the period 1848 -1864 (Griffiths Property Valuation):
Antrim 8.00
Armagh 2.00
Belfast city 8.00
Carlow 6.00
Cavan 2.00
Clare 80.00
Cork 2094.00
Cork city 204.00
Derry 4.00
Donegal 10.00
Down 31.00
Dublin 6.00
Dublin city 28.00
Fermanagh 3.00
Galway 15.00
Kerry 715.00
Kildare 4.00
Kilkenny 8.00
Laois 12.00
Leitrim 9.00
Limerick 280.00
Limerick city 30.00
Longford 6.00
Louth 11.00
Mayo 8.00
Meath 11.00
Monaghan 1.00
Offaly 4.00
Roscommon 5.00
Sligo 3.00
Tipperary 80.00
Tyrone 1.00
Waterford 129.00
Westmeath 3.00
Wexford 6.00
Wicklow 3.00
Strangely enough, Kildare at that point had a lot less of them than today for some reason.
As for tracing MJK through Irish records, there is no hope really I think.
here is the current state of affairs regarding records:
State Registration of Births, Marriages & Death
State registration of non-Roman Catholic marriages began in Ireland in 1845. All births, deaths, and marriages have been registered in Ireland since 1864.
Census Records
Full government censuses were taken of the whole island in 1821, 1831, 1841, 1851, 1861, 1871, 1881, 1891 1901, and 1911. The first four, for 1821, 1831, 1841, and 1851, were largely destroyed in 1922, in the fire at the Public Record Office; surviving fragments are detailed under the county source-lists. Those for 1861 1871 1881 and 1891 were completely destroyed earlier, by order of the government.
This means that the earliest surviving comprehensive returns are for 1901 and 1911. Because of this, the normal rule that census returns should not be available to the public for 100 years has been suspended in the Republic of Ireland, and the original returns can be consulted in the National Archives.
Land Records
Because of the destruction of nineteenth century census returns, surviving land and property records from the period have acquired a somewhat unnatural importance. Two surveys cover the entire country, the Tithe Applotment Books of c. 1823-38, and Griffith's Valuation, dating from 1848 to 1864. Both of these employ administrative divisions which are no longer in widespread use, and need some explanation. The smallest division, the townland, is the one which has proved most enduring. Loosely related to the ancient Gaelic "Bally betagh", and to other medieval land divisions such as ploughlands and quarters, townlands can vary enormously in size, from a single acre or less to several thousand acres.
There are more than 64,000 townlands in the country. They were used as the smallest geographical unit in both Tithe Survey and Griffith's, as well as census returns, and are still in use today. Anything from 5 to 30 townlands may be grouped together to form a civil parish. These are a legacy of the middle ages, pre-dating the formation of counties, and generally coextensive with the parishes of the Established Church, the Church of Ireland.
Church Records
After the coming of the Reformation to Ireland in the sixteenth century, the parish structures of the Catholic Church and the Church of Ireland diverged. In general, the Church of Ireland retained the older medieval parochial divisions, which were also used for administrative purposes by the secular authorities. Thus civil parishes, the basic geographical units in early censuses, tax records and land surveys, are almost identical to Church of Ireland parishes. The Catholic Church, on the other hand, weakened by the confiscation of its assets and the restrictions on its clergy, had to create larger and less convenient parishes.
In some ways, however, this weakness produced more flexibility, allowing parishes to be centered on new, growing population centres, and, in the nineteenth century, permitting the creation of new parishes to accommodate this growth in population. The differences in the parish structures of the two churches are reflected in their records.
Even allowing for the fact that members of the Church of Ireland were almost always a small minority of the total population, the records of each parish are proportionally less extensive than Catholic records, covering a smaller area, and are thus relatively easy to search in detail.
Catholic records, by contrast, cover the majority of the population and a much larger geographical area, and as a result can be very time-consuming to search in detail. The creation of new Catholic parishes in the nineteenth century can also mean that the registers relevant to a particular area may be split between two parishes. Both Catholic and Church of Ireland parishes are organized on the diocesan basis first laid out in the Synod of Kells in the Middle Ages, and remain almost identical, although the Catholic system has amalgamated some of the small medieval dioceses.
Given the fact that Kelly is the second most common name in the country, the fact that names bounced between Gaelic and English, the complex nature of naming children in Ireland, the extremely common practice of pet names and alternative names in families with large children, the destruction of records, the practice of grandparents bringing up children from their childrens large families, the high death rate and mass graves of the Famine, emigration, and half a dozen other things, the chance of finding and confirming a Mary Kelly are slim to none.
Which is sad. But passenger lists from ships could prove helpful as she must have crossed the channel at some point and the numbers doing that are maybe more realisric in terms of the odds of finding someone.
Mr P.
|
Mr Poster
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 7:21 am: |
|
Hi ho
Just as an interesting aside, I got the current Irish phonebook and determined the distribution of McCarthy's in the country. Here it is by county, the second value being the number of McCarthies listed as a percentage (ascending) of the total population of that county in 2002 in order to normalise the data:
Donegal: 38 0.028
Mayo: 39 0.03
Galway: 110 0.0526
Carlow: 27 0.059
Longford: 20 0.06
Louth: 61 0.06
Offaly: 39 0.06
Westmeath: 50 0.07
Dublin: 89 0.079
Monaghan: 45 0.08
Sligo: 48 0.08
Roscommon: 60 0.11
Leitrim: 33 0.12
Meath: 999 0.15
Wexford: 192 0.16
Kilkenny: 155 0.19
Cavan: 114 0.2
Tipperary: 289 0.2
Laois: 141 0.23
Waterford: 250 0.24
Limerick: 577 0.33
Kerry: 449 0.33
Cork: 2257 0.5
Clare: 528 0.51
Kildare: 1049 0.64
Wicklow: 1027 0.89
It seems the name is associated with the southern and south western areas of the country. Primarily it is dominant in Kildare, Wicklow and some southern counties. Of course this is a little tenuos as just after an Gorta Mor (Famine), the populations of some of these counties (and not others such as Dublin and the richer Pale counties to the east) was much less in which case it is possible that McCarthy as a nme was more predominant that these figures suggest. Limerick and Clare would have been badly affected as would Cork by both death and emigration.
BUt the distribution is as expected given that the family were rulers of Munster at one time. Interesting though (however coincidental) that the two names associated with Kelly (Kildare, Limerick) would have been McCarthy strongholds.
Mr P.
|
Gareth W
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 5:50 pm: |
|
Suzi,
Odd that its Cardiff though!!!
I've started a new thread about Kellys in Cardiff and it has much in its favour, to wit:
1. Up until the mid-19th Century, thousands of Irish immigrants came in waves to the iron, coal and steel industrial heartlands of South Wales, with the port of Cardiff at its very centre. Cardiff was literally at the hub of the Industrial Revolution in Wales and a magnet for Southern Irish settlers.
2. The majority of Southern Irish immigrants settled in South Wales - primarily in Cardiff and Merthyr - and those who failed to find work in the mines and foundries found alternative employment in the thriving shipping communities around Cardiff Bay and Newport to the East.
3. Cardiff was then in the county of Glamorganshire. In the account of Mary's history given by Barnett, she could well have said she'd settled in "Glamorganshire" and been misheard. Barnett, by error of recall (or prompted and inadvertently led astray by his interrogator), misremembered it as "Carmarthenshire or Caernarfonshire". Barnett was a Londoner trying to remember what was probably a one-off conversation early in his relationship with Kelly. It is understandable that his recall may have been impaired, especially if Welsh geography was not his strong point - is it anyone's outside Wales even today?
4. It is certainly true that comparatively more Irish immigrants put down roots in the anglicised areas of Cardiff, Merthyr and Newport than settled in the West of Wales, simply by virtue of wanting to be understood. The heavily Welsh-speaking communities of Carmarthen and Caernarfon would have been somewhat alienating to any immigrant, and still occasionally are!
5. We know for sure that Mary said she'd spent some time at Cardiff Infirmary, perhaps recovering from the TB that had left "old adhesions and consolidated nodules" in her lung, perhaps as a nurse. Doesn't really matter - the salient point is that she was in a Cardiff hospital, which may indicate that she lived and/or worked in or around Cardiff. Incidentally, this probably rules out placing the Kellys in North Wales (Fflint, Wrexham), since Liverpool and Manchester would have been more likely destinations for patients and/or medical staff from those regions.
|
Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 90
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 4:03 pm: |
|
I am just trying to digest all the information that has suddenly appeared on this thread!
But some quick comments;
Mr Poster
The question about whether the census entry says Limerick or not is irrelevent now as the couple in question there obviously didn't have any children or had children all grown up by 1861.
>> But passenger lists from ships could prove helpful as she must have crossed the channel at some point and the numbers doing that are maybe more realisric in terms of the odds of finding someone. <<
Afraid not! they rarely exist for short passages like this, and there were enormous numbers making this journey at the time.
At one time I thought I may be able to trace when some of my Irish ancestors came to England by this method...no hope!
It's funny that you should mention Cumbria though, one of the best fitting families I have ever found was living in Cumbria in 1881, the head John Kelly was an iron miner, and they had a daughter Mary of the right age and a son Henry....but I am trying to leave this addiction to finding Mary's family alone now!
I am going to read through yours' and Gareths' other information more carefully now and see if I can find Gareth W's Cardiff thread.
Debra |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2976
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 4:24 pm: |
|
Thanks for that chaps a serious lot of research here!!!!
Back to work!!
Suzi |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5024
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 4:45 pm: |
|
Thanks for all your information, Mr Poster and Gareth. Yes, more chance of finding JTR than Kelly!
Robert
|
Mr Poster
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 3:26 am: |
|
Hi ho
Why not serach for MJK as "Maura Kelly", "Maire Kelly", "Maureen Kelly" or just swop the last name for " Caolaigh". Mary Jane is just not a realistic Irish name in my opinion. The Jane can definitely go for starters. But however slim were your chances of finding Mary Jane Kelly, the ones of finding less than a hundred Maura Kelly's are slimmer.
MR P. |
Gareth W
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 4:50 pm: |
|
By the way, for those of you who have seen my "Mary Kelly in Cardiff - a possible family" thread, I had noticed a family called either "Carthy" or "M'Carthy" living a few doors away from the Kellys in Halket St, Cardiff - I think in the 1861 Census. Haven't double-checked the year, but I believe it's correct.
Mind you, seeing a family of Kellys living in proximity to a McCarthy household in this area of Cardiff is probably no more weird than seeing a Davies living next door to a Jones ;o)
Besides, I haven't the energy right now to chase tenuous Cardiff connections for John McCarthy of Dorset St, or Mrs Carthy of Breezer's Hill. I might if I get time, assuming nobody pours definitive cold water on the Kellys of Halket St in the meantime!
|
Jane Richards
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, October 10, 2005 - 2:42 pm: |
|
Hi
My gt aunt was a Mary Jany Kelly from Coedpoeth Wrexham, but I am sure she is not the one you are searching. I am tracing my Kelly family from Coedpoeth/Minera and if anyone has any details on the Kelly,s I would be interested. My gt grandfather Joseph Kelly) had the Queens Head pub Coedpoeth in 1909 with his wife Sarah Ann(nee Davies). Joseph Kellys brothers and sisters were Catherins Ann, Edward, Sarah Ellen, George and Mary Jane. Parents were Joseph Kelly and Ellen (nee Jones) any information would be appreciated.
Thanks.
Jane |
|
Use of these
message boards implies agreement and consent to our Terms of Use.
The views expressed here in no way reflect the views of the owners and
operators of Casebook: Jack the Ripper.
Our old message board content (45,000+ messages) is no longer available online, but a complete archive
is available on the Casebook At Home Edition, for 19.99 (US) plus shipping.
The "At Home" Edition works just like the real web site, but with absolutely no advertisements.
You can browse it anywhere - in the car, on the plane, on your front porch - without ever needing to hook up to
an internet connection. Click here to buy the Casebook At Home Edition.
|
|
|
|
Closed: New threads not accepted on this page