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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2232
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 7:53 am: | 
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Hi all
I have recently been contacted with a story which I am now researching and thought it might be of some interest. As a brief bit of background, the lady involved contacted me privately after reading the Kelly book and told me that she had some information about Mary kelly which originated from her great great grandparents. When this lady was 14 years old she saw a copy of the Kelly murder photo and mentioned it to her grandmother, who informed her that HER grandmother (i.e. my contact's great great grandmother) had known Kelly, knew that it was not she who was murdered and also that kelly, at some stage, lived in Tottenham. I have been supplied with the names and address of the great grandparents, which check out, and the name of the road where Kelly lived and one male relative of Mary Kelly, which I am currently checking.
I am, for obvious reasons, currently not publicising the name or any details about my contact and will let you know anything that checks out in this story.
Chris
(Message edited by Chris on November 01, 2005) |
Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 147
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 11:33 am: |
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Hi Chris
Great work, good luck with it all, I hope something comes out of it...great book by the way!
Debra |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2551
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 5:06 pm: |
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This sounds like it could lead somewhere Chris!
Natalie |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2756
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 5:32 pm: |
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Yes, Chris, sounds very interesting.
I would just love it to death if the male relative is called Patrick Kelly. |
Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 441
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 5:41 pm: |
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Good Luck Chris! Finally nail Kelly, eh? Now that would be a scoop!
Helge
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5210
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 5:50 pm: |
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Chris, I hope you get somewhere with this.
A Tottenham connection would be appropriate - over the last few years there's been as many holes in the Spurs defence as there were in Kelly.
Robert |
BelindafromHenmans.
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 8:35 am: |
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Hello Chris,
This strikes me as potentially more interesting than the "exclusive revelation". However, I'm concerned that it has all the appearances of dreamland- though I'm very interested that Mary might have lived in a precise Tottenham address.
The Joseph Sickert rumour suggests that Mary indeed lived in the Tottenham area before moving down to Whitechapel. Where else? Many people, none of whom research the matter atall, firmly believe Mary Kelly regularly frequented Cleveland Street. Tottenham puts her bang in the region of Cleveland Street, (where I personally believe she probably was, for a while). So the Tottenham suggestion is nothing new. In fact, the person to suggest this first was an old lady who'd heard this from her Grandmother who'd apparently got it from Florence Pash, one of WS's students, who'd purportedly claimed she knew Mary Kelly. So this 'Grandmother etc) part of the story might well have been imitated by your contact. I would take it though, were in not for the fact that this contact suggests her grandmother knew that Mary got away and another woman died in her place.
Come , what person's great great grandmother knew for certain at the time that Mary Kelly got away and another woman died in her place? Is there any point in Special Branch Freemasons keeping a secret atall if they're going to let it slip in the fishmarket so easily?
:-) Your contact has given you a story that relates entirely to mixed Media information, including 'From Hell.' I love the idea that a true informant has come forward, but be vigilant. All a spoofer has to do is quote her grandparents in London and someone who went by the name of 'Kelly', who lived there also. All the rest, can be got from the Media.
What we want is Mary's Limerick Address, Tottenham address, Dieppe address, Whitechapel arrangement- and details on how these tie up. Can she do that?
hhmmmmmmmmm
Kindest wishes. |
Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 983
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 9:03 pm: |
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Hi Chris,
The story seems interesting, but of course without a lot of details on why the person who claimed to know Mary Kelly thought it wasn't her who died it's not really much to go on.
On the face of it, even assuming it's true, it could just be a case of having known someone named Mary Kelly who wasn't our Mary Jane Kelly/Marie Jeanette Kelly/Mary Davies, so of course that one didn't get murdered in that room.
It also smacks heavily of being just another FOAF (Friend of a Friend) tale.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
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Steve Swift
Detective Sergeant
Username: Swift
Post Number: 61
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 9:17 pm: |
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Hello Chris 
Good luck but just one thought.....does the fact that not a single family member was ever found or turned up to her funeral not point to the distinct possibility that Mary Kelly was not her real name?
Bill Shankly to a Liverpool fan:
"Where are you from?"
"I'm a Liverpool fan from London."
"Well laddie . . . . What's it like to be in heaven?"
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Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1512
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 4:53 pm: |
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Hi,
According to the Times Newspaper November 10th 1888, which I am reading a original[ not copy] at this very moment there are two reports from Times Reporters from McCarthy [ kellys landlord]The first states The deseased came to live with a man called Kelly[ Barnett] a coal porter .
The statement indicates that Mary was taking the name of kelly from her then partner.
It is also known that McCarthy states that he knew her as Mary Jane McCarthy or Mary jane Kelly as she used to pose as Kelly the [Coal porters ] wife.
Further on in the Times report it changes to the surname Barnett [ obviously after the latter appeared on the scene]
Taking all of this into account it is conceivable that when the couple came to live at Millers court the male then giving his name as kelly [ not Barnett] was the surname that at least the landlord knew this couple as.
The members of the court knew her as only mary Jane.
It therefore is likely that Barnett never knew his loves Surname and because of a hidden past on his account used the name of Kelly when renting room 13, and because of his lack of knowledge on his girlfriends past after her death and believing that they were a couple indicated to the authorities this fact and she was buried under the name of Kelly, thus leaving us all in a quandary.
Regards Richard. |
MTR
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rigby
Post Number: 61
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2005 - 5:35 am: |
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Images of the relevant Times articles:
Page 7
Page 11 (scroll down to the bottom for the start of this one)
Mike.
(Message edited by rigby on November 03, 2005) |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1516
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2005 - 4:27 pm: |
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Hi,
What is so intresting in reading these old newspapers is the time gap although obviously 117 years ago is not so distant from this world as one may think.
The situations vacant ads are not disimilar then they appear today , the accodomatation ads , the birth , deaths, weddings etc are not primitive.
It really does give a insight into the fact that a lot of us had relatives who we have known and loved and talked to who were very much alive and growing up at the time of these murders.
Regards Richard. |
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