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Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Message Boards » Victims » Mary Jane Kelly » What do the numbers 28:4 mean on Kelly's leg? « Previous Next »

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DK
Unregistered guest
Posted on Saturday, April 02, 2005 - 2:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello,

I see most of the postings about the Kelly photos were made in 2003 and 2004, so I am a bit late.However, going over the photos with a magnified glass I have found something that has not been mentioned here , so could someone please assist me.

The photo I refer to is the second Kelly photo. The grid number on the grid set up is - D5.However it was on the high resolution photo what I saw. I CLEARLY SAW ( there is absolutley no doubt ) A NUMBERED SEQUENCE - 28:4. Seeing as though the tone is not deviating from the backgroud at all, I am assuming the numbers were marked on Kelly's leg, just below her knee.Firstly can someone blow this up to the maximum to see the numbers as clerly as possible.

Does anyone know if the detectives at the scene might have marked her in some way, for autopsy purposes? If not, could this have been signed by the killer as a clue? Does 28:4 mean anything in relation to any suspects? I mean in terms of possible birth dates or adressess. Would be very greatfull for any help I can get.There is no conjecture about the numbers, they are clearly there.

Thanks DK.
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Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder

Post Number: 601
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 5:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi DK,

You can be fairly certain that nobody marked her at the scene.

Lots of people think thy see lots of things. I don't see any 28:4 there, but I do see what I believe to be loops and swirls from writing that impressed onto the photo (or the copy of the photo) in some way. Nothing clear though, and certainly nothing actually written on MJK's body in any way.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
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D. Radka
Unregistered guest
Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 6:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The "debunking" of supposed symbols on the Kelly photographs may seem intelligent, but in fact it requires no special perceptiveness, erudition, or talent. Anyone can say they see nothing, or, cynically, that those who see something see pie in the sky.
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Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder

Post Number: 608
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 11:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi David,

Anyone can say anything. What matters is when people say things that make sense. You should try that sometime.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
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Scott Nelson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Snelson

Post Number: 115
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 12:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

David's observation was completely neutral. Yours is biased, Mr. Ripper Notes.

Hey, how's it going over on the forums site?
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Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder

Post Number: 609
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 12:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Scott,

As you've demonstrated on these boards time and time again, you and David have a really screwed up idea of what neutrality and bias are.

To most of the rest of the world, pointing out that completely unsupported statements need some actual logic and evidence before they can be taken seriously is not bias, it's just common sense. But then since you and David are huge fans of unsupported nonsense in your theory, it looks like you will defend any nonsense that comes along even if it's not related to your theory (or should we expect the new A?R to now include numbers appearing out of thin air on body parts as part of your so-called evidence?).

And actually, the forums site is going fine, thanks for asking. The thread you are undoubtedly referring to got erased by the management there as being pointless unsubstantiated insults. Trying to bring it up on this site just shows how desperate you are. Maybe one of these days you'll move on to contributing something useful to the boards.

Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
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Mephisto
Sergeant
Username: Mephisto

Post Number: 22
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 8:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello DK,

The next time you cite a particular photo, or an argument by another contributor, if there is a next time, you might find it helpful to include the page, board, thread, topic, and specific message you're referring to; it saves the less affected contributors, who are willing to reply to your message, the hassle of looking for a needle in a haystack.

On the Victims page, at the Mary Jane Kelly board under The Second Kelly Photograph topic, and the What can be seen in this photo thread, in Stephen Ryder's Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 12:01 am message, are posted four gridiron pictures, three of which are different, i.e., the third is the same as the first.

In your Saturday, April 02, 2005 - 2:53 pm message on the Victims page, at the Mary Jane Kelly board, under the, What do the numbers 28:4 mean on Kelly's leg? thread, your statement, "The photo I refer to is the second Kelly photo. The grid number on the grid set up is - D5. However it was on the high resolution photo what I saw. […] the numbers were marked on Kelly's leg, just below her knee", is just a little ambiguous.

Do you mean that the 28:4 image can be found in the second picture at the top of the thread, or the second gridiron photo? Or are you referring to the linked high resolution photo on the Kelly Photograph–High Resolution thread, found in Mr. Ryder's Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 12:20 am message? Is the 28:4 image below the knee toward the bottom of the photo, or do you see it on Kelly's skin to the right of the knee? And lastly, are you referring to Kelly's right knee, or to her left knee?

I have printed out all four gridiron photos, and the high resolution photo, and looked at every D5 grid, and at the same area on the high res shot, with a professional grade microscope, and I can't find the image to which you are referring.

If you can be a bit more specific, I might be able to help you.


Best regards,



Mephisto



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David Keating
Unregistered guest
Posted on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 9:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dear Mephisto,

You can blame this webstite for me not being able to post my finding. I had it all edited and ready with lines juxtaposed to point out my find. It was only a SMALL photo compred to the big photos I have seen posted. It was 64 KB's. When I tried to post it , I got the message " your attachment excedes 200 KB's, and cant be downloaded." . Even though it was only 64KB's. That was kind of strange , dont you think. I had a small 64KB image and was not aloud do download it. So dont blame me - I tried.

Thanks' David
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D. Radka
Unregistered guest
Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 1:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mr.Norder wrote:
1. “Scott, As you've demonstrated on these boards time and time again, you and David have a really screwed up idea of what neutrality and bias are.”

>>Please give specific examples of how Scott and I have demonstrated this characteristic, with full citations. I don’t believe either he or I have participated in a dialogue concerning “neutrality and bias” here before.

2. “To most of the rest of the world, pointing out that completely unsupported statements need some actual logic and evidence before they can be taken seriously is not bias, it's just common sense.”

>>Common sense is relativism. What person A thinks is sensible depends on person A’s intentions, plans, and perspectives. Common sense is not knowledge. Knowledge depends on methodology, asking critical questions, and establishing objective standards concerning evidence. You have seldom expressed an opinion on this case originating from a point beyond your own common sense, Mr. Norder, which, in a strange way, has amounted to your only consistency.

3. “But then since you and David are huge fans of unsupported nonsense in your theory, it looks like you will defend any nonsense that comes along even if it's not related to your theory (or should we expect the new A?R to now include numbers appearing out of thin air on body parts as part of your so-called evidence?).”

>>Please provide specific examples of how Scott and I support or defend positions outside the case evidence, including full citations. Scott has solid knowledge of the case, and I’ve never seen him deviate from entirely plausible suggestions concerning it. My A?R theory is soundly supported by the whole of the evidence.

4. “And actually, the forums site is going fine, thanks for asking. The thread you are undoubtedly referring to got erased by the management there as being pointless unsubstantiated insults. Trying to bring it up on this site just shows how desperate you are. Maybe one of these days you'll move on to contributing something useful to the boards.”

>>Several others have since commented on this matter, which would mean under your criterion that they are “desperate” also.
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David Keating
Unregistered guest
Posted on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 1:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi,

Can someone tell me why a message comes up saying my attachment must be 200KB's or less. I am really confused. This size picture - 200KB's - is about the size of my finger. On the Kelly photo threads, there are massive pictures of all Kelly photos, which cover the whole screen. Can someone tell me whats going on here? I am itching to get my post through.
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Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder

Post Number: 619
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 11:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi David (Radka)-

Come now. Your every post shows just how biased you are. Anyone can pick any post of yours at random and see for themselves. It's not like you or Scott have contributed useful posts in a long, long time, they have consistently just been feeble attempts to attack others, often over things that make no sense at all. Just look at what you showed up to support in this thread: numbers written on a corpse's leg based upon what somebody thinks they see and nobody else does who has examined it closely over the years. I mean, come on, get a grip.

Hi David (Keating)-

If you have an image that's only the size of your finger that's 200KB, you must be saving it in a way that isn't very web-friendly. Make sure the pixel size is appropriate for a computer screen and not for printing out (width of maybe 400 pixels or so, certainly not much above that, preferably less so as not to screw up the width of the pages). You should also try picking JPEG formatting and a compression setting that makes the file size much smaller than standard windows BMP files. Image quality still looks pretty good, at least for on screen viewing at small sizes, with quite a bit of compression. If nothing else you should be able to test a variety of compression settings and see what they look like and what file size they give you.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
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Mephisto
Sergeant
Username: Mephisto

Post Number: 30
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 3:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello Mr. Keating,

Please don't feel that you have to defend yourself. Relax and enjoy the website.

Visitors are always welcome to make observations, share their thoughts, or ask questions. If you plan to visit regularly, I recommend that you register a user name with the site's administrator and become a member. Registration is free, and it allows your messages to be posted immediately.

Generally, the Casebook community is friendly and fairly well versed with the details of the case. With one notable exception (You've already met our resident bully), everyone here knows that inquiries are not declarative statements, so don't concern yourself with trying to find evidence to support an inquiry, just ask your questions, and if anyone feels they can help you along, they'll respond.

So, when you're able to up-load those photos, I'll be happy to take a look, and discuss them with you.


Best regards,



Mephisto



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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg

Post Number: 2106
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 12:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi there David Keating,

i am sure you will be able to post your photos perhaps they are too large a file and the file size can be reduced in size in order to help?

i am sure someone can help with that.

Hi there Mephs,

I have to agree with you on the following points,
generally, the casebook community is friendly

everyone here knows you dont have to find evidence to support an inquiry. and also when thats appropriate.

Indeed it is a shame that some people seem to have a rather odd fixation with certain individuals which can lead at times to quite bizarre behaviour.

Somehow on that point I doubt we are talking about the same person. Still everyone reading this knows whats really going on,

lets not over concern oursleves

Hi David Radka!

Cheers
Jenni
"All you need is positivity"
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Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse

Post Number: 227
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 12:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey DK,

Is this the image you are talking about? I really dont know if this is the "284" you mean, but I can kind of see it. I think it is just a coincidental image, like seeing something in a cloud.
284

Rob H
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Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse

Post Number: 228
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 12:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This is the original


Rob H
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Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder

Post Number: 623
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 1:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Rob,

If he's seeing what I think he's seeing, it's actually farther down to the left.

One thing to keep in mind is that the photo here on the site is saved as a JPEG, which turns things into varying shades of boxy shapes inside of other boxy shapes so that when you see it at normal size it looks OK but stores as a smaller file because the details are washed out.

In the image in the upper right above (first post, as I see another has been added since I started typing), we can see JPEG artifacts all over the place. Those are the conspicuous blurry straight lines that cross themselves exactly horizontally and vertically. The "4" and the "8" highlighted above are formed by following the edges of some of the smaller JPEG blocks. (Try as I might I can't see the two, but based upon the doodled shape it's probably just JPEG artifact edges as well.) Those would not be in the original photo, let alone at the original crime scene.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
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Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek

Post Number: 774
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 3:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, I wasn't going to join this thread because I'm pretty cynical about it and I see absolutely nothing like a 28:4 or any other writing in this photograph. However...

If I were to see it, "28:4" would look to me like the standard American style of citing Scripture, as in "Matthew 28:4" (i.e. Matthew chapter 28, verse 4). I think the European convention would be "28.4".

OK folks, here it is. There are only two books in the New Testament with as many as 28 chapters: Matthew and Acts.

Matthew 28:4 --
"And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men." KJV

"The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men. " NIV

Acts 28:4 --

"And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live." KJV

"When the islanders saw the snake hanging from his hand, they said to each other, “This man must be a murderer; for though he escaped from the sea, Justice has not allowed him to live."" NIV

Either of these passages could have application to the murders. If this is a hoax, my compliments go to the ingenuity of the hoaxer.

Andy S.
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Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek

Post Number: 775
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 3:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

...and there is also Psalm 28:4 --

"Give them according to their deeds, and according to the wickedness of their endeavours: give them after the work of their hands; render to them their desert." KJV

There are others. But these are the "best."

Andy S.
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Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn

Post Number: 1381
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 4:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi,
If you all are contemplating the relevance of 28/4 in Biblical terms, then the 39th psalm which has factors in this case for numerous reasons, would strongly indicate that the killer was well versed in Biblical studies.
Therefore is the killer a devout worshipper, indeed a member of the cleric[ at least one letter refered to himself as that] and the person who uttered the words to Stride' You would say anything but your prayers' could be a suspect........
I truely suspect that the whitechapel murderer was infact a person with deep religious convictions.
Regards Richard.
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Mephisto
Sergeant
Username: Mephisto

Post Number: 31
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 10:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello Everyone,

In the upper right blow-up of Mr. House's Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 12:41 pm post, the numbers look more like red letters to me, i.e., JW. Perhaps the killer was saying he liked Johnnie Walker Red.




Mephisto



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Brad McGinnis
Inspector
Username: Brad

Post Number: 244
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 12:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi all! You miss the point here. The case solves itself. You add 28 and 4 you get 32. Add this to the number of thighs slashed (2) and boobs removed (2) you get 36. Combine this with the number of arms with defensive wounds (2) and the number of throats slashed (1) and you get 39. AHA! It obvious that our boy is none other than Oswald Googlesnit, a Jewish taylor and part time butcher who was born March 9th 1839.He served in the 38th Floatilla of HRMs royal Navy to but was released a day early...38 plus one day = 39.
He was driven to insanity when his children (triplets) died at the age of 9. The only real problem in naming him the ripper came when Bagster Phillips asked him point blank at the inquest room at 39 at Treneuve Street "Are you the ripper?" To which Googlesnit replied, "You can 86 that idea". See? Its easy. Brad
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Lindsey Millar
Inspector
Username: Lindsey

Post Number: 385
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 9:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well done, Brad!

Best theory I've heard in a long time!

(I really don't think that there are any numbers on MJK's leg - rather they appear to be just blood stains to me. Even with a magnifying glass. Maybe I'm missing something.)

Bestest,

Lyn
"When a man grows tired of London, he grows tired of life" (or summat like that)
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg

Post Number: 2113
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 10:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This really is turning into a cracking thread. I have to say i cant see it myself!!
"All you need is positivity"
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Mephisto
Sergeant
Username: Mephisto

Post Number: 33
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 10:41 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Two sentences in a row with capital letters. Something cracking is indeed happening here.






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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg

Post Number: 2116
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 10:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't know what you mean Mep. You always seem to do fine with your grammar. What could you be saying? In fact your last post had an interesting use of comas, but, aside from that...

I guess that goes to show something about the grammar sense correlation!

But we stray off point.





"All you need is positivity"
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Mephisto
Sergeant
Username: Mephisto

Post Number: 34
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 11:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

hello, Je, there, is, definitely, something, unusual, happening, today, i, wonder, if, it, will, last, methinks, we'll, soon, find, out. p,s, are, you, comatose, from, commas, or, from, capital, letters.
...............Mephisto Editor..............
Ripper Totes The International Journal of Foot Wear for Wet Weather Walking Tours


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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg

Post Number: 2118
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 11:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

AHEM,

oh there is so much to say but none of it has to do with this thread, so i guess i'm not saying it. Too easy. Wouldn't it be better to get back to topic. An interesting topic. Though maybe you don't want to.

perhaps youd rather just carry on insulting people, hey one never can tell

jenni

(Message edited by jdpegg on April 15, 2005)
"All you need is positivity"
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Mephisto
Sergeant
Username: Mephisto

Post Number: 35
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 12:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Je, what, did, you, find, insulting, about, my, last, post. i, know, what, it, was, i, pointed, out, your, misspelling, of, comma, and, you, went, into, a, coma.

everything, is, easy, if, you, have, positivity.


ta ta
...............Mephisto Editor..............
Ripper Totes The International Journal of Foot Wear for Wet Weather Walking Tours


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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg

Post Number: 2119
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 2:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

hi,
some of us live in the real world. We know whats what. we register what happened prior to this time you took the p**s out of my grammar and what happened the last time you did likewise.

BUT BACK TO THE POINT!!!!
Jenni
"All you need is positivity"
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Mephisto
Sergeant
Username: Mephisto

Post Number: 36
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 3:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jenn,

Did you get my e-mail?
Mephisto, Editor

Ripper Totes: The International Journal of Foot Wear for Wet Weather Walking Tours



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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg

Post Number: 2120
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 3:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

i have replied to your email - twice now!

Jennifer
"All you need is positivity"
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David Keating
Unregistered guest
Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 9:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks, Jennifer,Robert and Dan,

Robert, that was not the area of the photo I was referring to . Dan, it is not to the left, but actually to the lower right. In my last post I pinpointed the area.

Andrew Spallek and Richard Nunweek. Thanks kindly for that input. You have me now racing to the bible like a headless chook. I find the references in this passage interesting to say the least. They refer to a murderous man - " no doubt this man is a murderer" and makes reference to the sea. Brian , I totally agree with you that the biblical reference would indicate a devout suspect believing they were meeting out some sort of justice to an immoral pursiut. An extremist, or fundemantalist, in thier belief to a dangerous level. . This is an interesting, and unexpected, conection at this stage.However, I wont jump to conclusions just yet, and sound like a hothead. I just want to get to first base and get you all seeing the numbers.

What there is is a sequence which starts with a dot( or bullet), a '2', a partially broken '8', 3 colon like dots, and a clear '4'.My goal is to get you first to recognise them. It is at first hard - but when it clicks in you can see it clearly in every photo you see. In this post I have painted over exactly the contour of the lines to make it clear. I SINCERERLY AND HONESTLY HAVE NOT EXAGERATED ANYTHING WHEN WRITING OVER THE LINES. PLEASE BELIEVE ME. I HAVE FOLLOWED THEM EXACTLY, which is what initially led to the sequence * 28:4.

Thanks everyone, David
image/bmp
untitled.bmp (68.2 k)
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David Cartwright
Unregistered guest
Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 2:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

FOR RICHARD BRIAN NUNWEEK.

Hi Richard.
I'm sorry to have to shatter one of your illusions about a religious Ripper, but "YOU WOULD SAY ANYTHING BUT YOUR PRAYERS" is an age-old everyday saying. It was used by my parents and Grandparents, and those of my friends. Whenever we, as children, tried to make up stories or excuses for our wrong-doings, that was the regular sentence used by our parents. It was also used by adults to adults.

These were certainly not deeply religious people, and the sentence carried no religious meaning. It was just another saying. So THAT won't wash in the Ripper context. I'm sorry Richard, but you'll have to come up with something better than that, as the words supposedly used to Elizabeth Stride certainly had NO sinister religious meaning.
Best wishes Richard.
DAVID C.
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Mary Merritt
Unregistered guest
Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 7:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello all! Long time reader, first time poster. Just wanted to say that this business of 28:4 is indeed very interesting. It would suprise me if the numbers on Kelly's leg are authentic/original to the scene(most likely imprints from other photos made during the long years these pictures lay undiscovered)but I am very impressed with those who made the connection to Bible verses. A very interesting "lead". Bravo!
~Mary Merritt~
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David Keating
Unregistered guest
Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 8:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dear Bosses,
I was not codding dear old bosses when I gave you the tip.You'll hear about Saucy David's work on this post.Double event this time. 1. I have enlarged the 2nd Kelly photo and cut section out. 2. I have placed a rectangle directly about the numbers. Number one was hard, getting the attachment through, I squealled a bit, but got it on.

I keep on hearing the police say I am a hoax poster, but they wont fix me just yet. I have laughed when they look so clever and talk about me not being on the right track.That joke about pie in the sky gave me real fits.Grand work my last post was too, but Chriss Scott told me my find was just a blemish on the photo, oh well.This time I have used black lines to point out the numbers.I wanted to use red lines but my editing function did not have it.Black ink is fit enough , I hope, HA HA.

You'll soon hear of me with my funny little games.I love my work and I want to start again. The next job I shall clip the picture out first , then post it before the dialogue.Then I shall send it to the message boards just for jolley - wouldn't you. My eyes are nice and sharp and I want to get to work right away if I get the chance.

Your truley , David the not so Ripper.

P.S. On a serious note.I was not aloud to make a bigger attachment.These are the pictures I used.
* Thread - 'The Second Kelly pkoto'
* Subthread -' What can be seen in this photo'
* High res photo posted by Admin Steve Ryder on March 25 , 2003, 7.46pm.
As there was no grid on this , I had to go back to an earlier post of Steve's to get a reference point.
* Steve Ryder, March 21, 2003, 3.38pm. Grid number D-5.
To help me out here, can someone give a much larger picture, displaying the boxed numbers in relation to the whole photo.Thanks.
image/bmp
untitled.bmp (68.2 k)
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Stuart
Unregistered guest
Posted on Saturday, April 16, 2005 - 9:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Andrew Spallek,

I cant see the numbers yet, but I hope David gets his plan together and posts it. If they are there, than an interesting connection." You would say anthing but your prayes".This could only mean this person thought the prostitutes were heathens.These bible references also indicates reference to the murders.Backing my long standing belief that the murderer did not personally know each whore, but wanted to make an example out of them and prostitution.

This qoute is from my bible, and another incredible coincidence here, with relevance to the murders.
PSALMS - 28:4 - "give them according to thier acting", " and according to the badness of thier practises" YOU ARE KIDDING ME - THIS WOULD BE A STAGGERING COINCIDENCE- It has direct inference to prostitutes.

" according to the work of thier hands do you give to them"
" pay back to them thier own doing" - PAY BACK! This is motive for a relgious nut to commit these murders. I am holding my breath for the sighting David. Dont let us down buddy!If it's a hoax - congrats. If it is not - this is a pot of gold.
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David Keating
Unregistered guest
Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 8:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dear Bosses,
I was not codding dear old bosses when I gave you the tip.You'll hear about Saucy David's work on this post.Double event this time. 1. I have enlarged the 2nd Kelly photo and cut section out. 2. I have placed a rectangle directly about the numbers. Number one was hard, getting the attachment through, I squealled a bit, but got it on.

I keep on hearing the police say I am a hoax poster, but they wont fix me just yet. I have laughed when they look so clever and talk about me not being on the right track.That joke about pie in the sky gave me real fits.Grand work my last post was too, but Chriss Scott told me my find was just a blemish on the photo, oh well.This time I have used black lines to point out the numbers.I wanted to use red lines but my editing function did not have it.Black ink is fit enough , I hope, HA HA.

You'll soon hear of me with my funny little games.I love my work and I want to start again. The next job I shall clip the picture out first , then post it before the dialogue.Then I shall send it to the message boards just for jolley - wouldn't you. My eyes are nice and sharp and I want to get to work right away if I get the chance.

Your truley , David the not so Ripper.

P.S. On a serious note.I was not aloud to make a bigger attachment.These are the pictures I used.
* Thread - 'The Second Kelly pkoto'
* Subthread -' What can be seen in this photo'
* High res photo posted by Admin Steve Ryder on March 25 , 2003, 7.46pm.
As there was no grid on this , I had to go back to an earlier post of Steve's to get a reference point.
* Steve Ryder, March 21, 2003, 3.38pm. Grid number D-5.
To help me out here, can someone give a much larger picture, displaying the boxed numbers in relation to the whole photo.Thanks.
image/bmp
untitled.bmp (68.2 k)
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Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder

Post Number: 632
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 5:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I've taken the liberty of downloading David Keating's files and putting them into a format people can see on screen. I also put them in context with the larger photo and then blew up the area as much as I could.

numbers

While this area doesn't look like the result of JPEG artifacts, it doesn't look like writing to me either. Certainly not on her actual leg. It's too small and too white (can't write with chalk across a mutilated leg). Just looks to me like another example of random nothingness that can look like something if you squint real hard.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile    Email    Dissertations    Website
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Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek

Post Number: 776
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 9:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I firmly believe one can see anything at all in random shapes such as the marks or artifacts on Mary's leg. I also believe that one can take Biblical passages out of context, or passages from Shakespeare out of context for that matter, and see in them imaginary significance.

Remember that in Acts 28:4, Paul was in fact not a murderer. In Matthew 28:4, the reference is to the appearance of angels at Jesus' tomb as being so frightening. Nothing sinister in either case.

Andy S.

PS - I still don't see it. Perhaps a hint of a "2" if I really use my imagination but that's all.
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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard

Post Number: 329
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 10:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"...Should I try to look some more?....

... 28 or semicolon to 4 ?"


You dummies...its from Chicago's 2nd album. It was a popular song...ask O'Flaherty.
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David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin

Post Number: 814
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 11:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Howard, if it's not sung on American Idol, I don't know it, man.

Check out Dan's post--I can clearly see the numbers, you have to look at the lower right section. Bright as day.

Cheers,
Dave

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Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek

Post Number: 778
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 10:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sitting cross-legged on the floor,
25...or 6...to 4


One of my favorites. The reference is to the composer struggling to come up with a song in the middle of the night (i.e., at 3:34 or 3:35 AM).

A could make some comment about the hour of Mary's death, but let's not start that all over again!

Andy S.

(Message edited by Aspallek on April 19, 2005)
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Karen Maxwell
Unregistered guest
Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 3:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello,

Dan sais you cant write with chalk on a mutilated leg. Why do you think this was written in chalk. I dont think chalk would even come off on skin.When looking at the other marks on Kelly's leg and knee, they all seem to be scraped on with some sort of scraping instrument.I dont think there was any writing implement avalable in 1888, certainly not chalk, that would mark human flesh.I think, if the numbers were left by the killer, he has scraped them on. I think there is also a possibilty that the numbers may have been put there after the picture was taken.

Due to the fact the sequence is not straight, and the numbers are a bit rough, ( I can still clearly see them though), it could have been a rough tool for scraping.I also find that little sketch of his on the top of Kelly's knee of interest. Despite the difficult texture of flesh, his sketch came out alright.The demon like creature that is about to eat the womans head(presumably Kelly's) gives a good insight into his motive. The demons eye, snout, and bottom row of 3 teeth were all good detail. The womans eyes, and the 2 excellently placed nostrils below her nose, indicate to me that this man had some skill in artwork or similar.I am an ex art teacher at a private colledge. I could not have done this sketch, with the remarkable detail I have mentioned , even if I had 2 days to do do it.Certainly not on human flesh.

Given this sketch, it is possible he has scraped these numbers, but only close annalysis of the original might tell.

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Bill O'grady
Unregistered guest
Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 11:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I see 3 chief inspectors on this thread that say they cannot see these numbers. I am 62 years old and do not have perfect vision, and I am just a retired clerk. I can see the numbers 28:4 quite easily on the bottom right side of Dan Norder's picture.They are not clear , they are only slight, but certainly there.You inspectors cant see them and I can? shame, shame, shame!
all the best , Bill
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David Keating
Unregistered guest
Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 3:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks David O'flaherty, I am glad you have seen them and give me some credibility. They are very faint numbers, and I guess if you are a sceptic, then you wont want to see them anyway. I will take it to the grave that the sequence is there, albeit very faint.You dont really have to magnify too much, as this will probably distort the image. As David said, on Dan's post you can see them quite well.If you cant see them , I'm sorry but thats life I guess.

I do not conclude they are definatly on Mary Kelly. They may have been impressed onto the photo. The question still remains - what do they represent ? The bible reference is uncanny, but there could be other possibilities.

One thing I find strange. The person who released the photo in 1988, did so anonomously. Maybe this person knows what the numbers mean. Maybe they know something behind the case.Anyway, one thing is for certain - they are there to indicate something. Just what, I'm not sure.
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David Cartwright
Unregistered guest
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 12:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Stuart.
As I pointed out in my previous post, the sentence "YOU WOULD SAY ANYTHING BUT YOUR PRAYERS", is NOT a biblical reference, but an age-old everyday saying, which was used often by my parents & grandparents, and neither they or others who used this saying were religion freaks.

It was simply another way of saying "I don't believe you", when someone would say anything, rather than admit the truth. So, I can assure you that there is NO sinister connection with religion in this old saying.
Best wishes Stuart.
DAVID C.
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David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin

Post Number: 817
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 3:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi David Keating

Sorry, that was a joke. They're only visible because someone (you or Dan I guess) took the time to draw them on there to help others make them out. I don't believe 28:4 is really there any more than I believe there's an "FM" on the wall. Dark Ages stuff if you ask me (and you didn't), but to each their own. People see what they want to see, I guess.

Cheers,
Dave
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DK
Unregistered guest
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 3:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I totally give up. I am a sceptic. I have been outscepticed here though. No one believes me. I see at least one unregistered poster , Bill, can help me. But does any registered police officer on the boards at all see them? I am starting to doubt my sanity now.

Bill: thanks, at least you give me a little dignity, but I wish you wre in law enforcement.

Karen : I am not sure about the sketch you refer to. Being an art teacher, as you claim to be, you must see something, so I will give you a fair go.I think you are refering to the top area of the knee.It looks like a dog, or beast like head, about to devour another head.Being the sceptis I am, I would probably go with what the Inspectors will say - it is cloud imagery. Except for one thing, it seems to fit right in with what the murderer was thinking - that these woman wre being punished for thier infernal doings.It also strangly fits in with Psalms 28:4
* 'give them according to the badness of thier practises'
* 'pay back to them thier own doings'
I think though you will certianly need a genuine oppinion from another professional art EXPERT , rather than the punishment you will probably recieve from this lot.

Thanks DK
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Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn

Post Number: 1391
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 2:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Dk,
I happen to be in full agreement with you, i [ personal opinion] believe the killer had strong religious motivations, thus my infamous 39 theory ie. The 39th Psalm, which if one reads carefully sets out a tormented soul.
Your 28,4 psalm would have been typical of such a deranged mind.
Richard.
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Mephisto
Sergeant
Username: Mephisto

Post Number: 37
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 4:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello Mr. Keating,

Some people see numbers, while others see loops or swirls; still others see nothing at all. It's not a question of whether or not you want to see an image; rather, what each person sees is a matter of perception. There are a dozen or so psychological tests, e.g., the Rorschach ink blot test, and subliminal stimulus test, which measure an individual's perceptive abilities. So don't despair, your ability to perceive these images is concomitant with your intelligence, experience, and your psychological characteristics.

Looking at the lower right-hand photo in Norder's Monday, April 18, 2005 - 5:40 pm post, I can clearly make out a •, then a 2, and what appears to be a 5 followed by a \ and a ±. Be advised that a suspect stated (in writing) that he was considering marking his next victim; he did not specify where on her body he would place the characters.

In his Monday, April 11, 2005 - 9:05 am post, at the Suspects page, Maybrick board, Controversey topic, Flouresent Markings thread, Mr. Chris Scott wrote: "Hi Chris P This section appears on page 245 of the [Matbrick] Diary. The passage runs: "I wonder if next time I can carve my funny letters on the whores flesh? I believe I will give it a try. It amuses me if nothing else".

Your perception has provided us with some interesting food for thought, i.e., the existence of these characters, what they might mean, and their significance, if any, vis-à-vis the Maybrick Diary. Your persistent belief was the catalyst for a lively discussion; in this sense, you have made a valuable contribution here Mr. Keating, and I thank you for your effort.

Best regards,


};-}




Mephisto, Editor

Ripper Boats: The International Journal of Watercraft for Nautical Ripperologists



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Nigel Graddon
Unregistered guest
Posted on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 7:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A propos Psalm 28, it's also interesting to consider its 4th line (in Verse 1):

"I become like them that go down into the pit."

Regards

Nigel G.



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Gareth W
Unregistered guest
Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 9:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I can actually see the numbers (for what it's worth, I see "267") but I'm less than convinced that the numbers are actually written on MJK's flesh.

If these aren't just photographic artefacts my feeling is that what you've seen could be something as mundane as some numbers stencilled on the bed-clothes - perhaps the bedspread once belonged to a ho(s)tel whose address was "267 [something]".

Another possible explanation concerns the dot before the "2", as has been pointed out in the enlargements. This "dot" could be the eyehole in a cardboard tag, such as those sometimes used as laundry (or luggage!) tickets. It's not inconceivable that the odd tag (or even the odd stolen bedsheet!) might turn up in a dwelling whose occupants took in casual laundry work.
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Graham W
Unregistered guest
Posted on Sunday, June 05, 2005 - 3:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The problem with the interpretation of the ‘numbers’ is that from the first post it has been assumed that they represent writing. When viewed as part of the larger scene each of the elements that appear to form part of a number consists of a light upper area and a corresponding lower section that is significantly darker. Given the position of the light source this indicates that these small elements are in relief, both reflecting light and causing shadow. These are small, random irregularities, several-hundred of which are scattered across the body and clothing. If one thinks in three-dimensions – and that is what a photograph represents in a two-dimensional form - then the ‘writing’ becomes a nonsense.

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