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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2469
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 5:31 pm: | 
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I have decided to start picking away at the statements of gods on this site. Rumbelow first, for no reason apart from that he is available.
Rumbelow:
‘Murder was uncommon in the East End as a whole, one a year in the years before and after 1888. This has to be considered, in particular when discussing the ‘double event.’ Either both were Ripper killings, or there was one very big coincidence!’
Well then, just the small matter of the fourteen murders of women I found in the East End of London in 1887. |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2115
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 8:52 am: |
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Hi AP,
Any of those prostitutes, with their throat cut on the street after midnight?
In other words, are you in a position to compare like with like yet?
Love,
Caz
X |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3990
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 8:58 am: |
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Caz,
Read it again.
Rumbelow say 'Murder as uncommon...'
He doesn't refer to Ripper-like killings, he clearly speaks of murders as a whole, unless I misread him.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on September 06, 2005)
G. Andersson, writer/historian
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Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1351
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 9:36 am: |
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Caroline Morris
Any of those prostitutes, with their throat cut on the street after midnight?
But "on the street" doesn't fit Kelly, does it?
And why "after midnight", rather than, say "after 1am"? And why stop at "throat cut", rather than including "mutilations to the torso"? Either of those changes would rule out Stride.
It seems to me you've decided the answer you want to get - the "canonical five" - and then chosen the question carefully (though not quite carefully enough) so that it fits the answer. A rather pointless procedure.
Chris Phillips
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Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2119
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 12:20 pm: |
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Blimey, I only asked AP a couple of simple questions.
I know what Don wrote. I'm just asking if the 14 murders AP found, which prove Don wrong about murder being uncommon, automatically prove him wrong about the double event.
If all 14 were non-prostitutes killed indoors, for instance (and even assuming Kelly was a ripper victim, she bucked the trend in that respect), the statistics wouldn't help, would they?
All of a sudden, I'm not supposed to ask the sort of question that is crucial if we are to learn anything from AP's painstaking research?
Some progress!
Love,
Caz
X
(Message edited by caz on September 06, 2005) |
Simon Owen
Inspector
Username: Simonowen
Post Number: 247
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 12:51 pm: |
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Caz , its a harsh and cruel world I'm afraid ! |
Simon Owen
Inspector
Username: Simonowen
Post Number: 248
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 12:55 pm: |
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Okay , so murder was more common than Don thought. But we still need to ask these questions :
1) How many murder victims were there overall ( female AND male victims ) ?
2) How many murders were ' domestic incidents ' ?
3) How many murders involved mutilation ?
4) How many murders involved facial mutilation and/or decapitiation ( including throat cutting ) ?
5) How many of these murders were solved ? |
Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 729
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 1:03 pm: |
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Caz,
I know what Don wrote. I'm just asking if the 14 murders AP found, which prove Don wrong about murder being uncommon, automatically prove him wrong about the double event.
Fortunately for you there ain't but one Caz likely to be mentioned on the boards (at least until former pro basketball player Cazzie Russell starts posting), but maybe at least Don R.? My first reaction to your post was "what did I screw up this time?" 
Don S.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2470
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 2:22 pm: |
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Yes, I simply and purely meant that it was wrong to claim that the murder of women in the East End of London during 1887, 1888 & 1899 was so uncommon as to be but one a year.
And then use that ‘one’ murder as some kind of weird verification that the murders of Stride and Eddowes must be linked to a common killer.
Well Caz, I am still not in a position to answer your question, and probably will not be for some weeks yet, but in the meantime ponder on this:
On March 6th 1888 Margaret White was savagely beaten to death with a poker, the injuries were massive and appalling.
The very next night, March 7th 1888, a Mrs Stallion was also beaten to near death by a man using a poker. Again the wounds and injuries were absolutely vicious.
Both crimes took place in the East End of London.
But the crutch piece of the matter is that the two very similar crimes were totally unrelated to one another, and each crime had been committed by a different man.
Mr Rumbelow might well be interested to know that although I have only just begun my search into the murder of East End women during 1888 I have so far found four murders and one clear case of attempted murder… and I’ve only got to March 7th and have yet to perform any ’radical’ searches which usually throw up previously unknown or undisclosed murder cases. |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 848
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 3:17 pm: |
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As always, your work makes one think, AP. I look forward with keen anticipation to your considered conclusions.
Phil |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 920
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 5:22 pm: |
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I've seen that claim myself that there was only one murder in the year before all the fun began.
I believe someone instituted a thread on these boards with a list of crimes committed [ I'm not sure where ] in London, not just The East End, in 1887.
Anyone remember this? |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2471
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 6:13 pm: |
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Thanks chaps
I'm up to 7 murders of women now, and 6 attempted murders of women - as classified by the police of the time - for the East End of London in 1888.
And I still have not employed the radical searches. And I'm only in June of 1888.
So the fun has yet to begin.
Just for Caz, I think I've found a whore, her throat was cut nine times - a tad excessive I feel - from the May of 1888, but the case is still going through the court, well in my time zone anyway.
This was Mary - or Maria - Newman, whose husband, tired of her bad habits did for her.
I didn't realise that one of Emma Smiths ears had been ripped off? |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1851
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 4:16 am: |
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AP,
These murders and attacks in the East End.
Could you clarify East End for me? I mean, what areas exactly?
....or is it all hush hush, wink, wink?
Cheers
Monty
...and I said: "My name is 'Sue!' How do you do!
Now you're gonna die!!"
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Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2121
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 6:44 am: |
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Hi Monty,
The same question occurred to me too.
Hi All,
This is great work being done by AP, and it will be interesting to see where it all leads.
At present there are several grounds for thinking Stride may not be one of Jack's, one being the lack of mutilations. But we shouldn't run before we can walk, with regard to the murders found by AP.
If another argument for Stride's exclusion is going to be that her murder is more likely to be one of the larger number of non-ripper murders that were committed during the late 1880s than one of the ripper's series, there is little to go on at present.
We need a list of similarities between the murder of Stride and AP's newly discovered murders, so we can compare this with the list of similarities between Stride and the three accepted ripper murders.
Stride was an unfortunate who had her throat cut outdoors after midnight at the weekend within walking distance of the three ripper victims, and her body was left where she died. That much is accepted.
Now there could have been a hundred other murders of women in the East End either side of these but if, to take an extreme example, none of them were unfortunates, or they were all poisoned indoors on a Tuesday afternoon outside of Whitechapel, and their bodies disposed of elsewhere, the argument would kind of fall down.
Even then, Stride could still have been killed by someone other than Jack. But the statistics in that case would not support such an argument.
And sorry Don S! I didn't meant to spook you like that.
Love,
Caz
X |
Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1359
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 7:19 am: |
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Caroline Morris
If another argument for Stride's exclusion is going to be that her murder is more likely to be one of the larger number of non-ripper murders that were committed during the late 1880s than one of the ripper's series, there is little to go on at present.
But is anyone actually arguing this?
The only statistical argument I can see is Rumbelow's, based on the assumption that there was only one murder a year in the East End in the years before and after 1888.
Surely the point is simply that - according to A.P.'s numbers - Rumbelow's assumption was false, and that his argument is, to say the least, much weaker than he thought.
But in any case, do you really find this kind of argument convincing? On another thread I seem to remember you airily dismissing it by saying "Coincidences happen" ...
Chris Phillips
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2472
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 1:04 pm: |
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I agree with everyone!
All I'm basically trying to show is that one of the most respected authors and researchers in the world - in this strange field - has not peeled his onions before he cooked them.
Now I aim to serve up the sauce with his cooked goose.
Regarding the East End of London. I have simply taken cases that I feel truly reflect on the jurisdiction of the courts of London in this particular area, and have been careful to avoid any murder cases that have been carried out by the nobs and toffs of the West End.
My road map has been the areas and streets of London associated with the people and crimes of the Whitechapel Murderer.
But hey I'm only an old wolf so errors may occur, but at least I'm peeling the onions before I cook 'em, even if sometime soon they might make me cry.
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4951
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 4:47 pm: |
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AP, I know you're preoccupied with murder in East End....but let us know if you spot any jobbings in Newington.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2474
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 5:14 pm: |
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I will, Robert, I will.
I'm holding you and Debra responsible for all this anyway, seeing you gave me the key.
The Original Villages of the East End
Bethnal Green
Spitalfields
Whitechapel
Wapping
Hackney
Mile End
Stepney
Poplar
Limehouse
Millwall
Stratford
Bow
Blackwall
West Ham
Plaistow.
Five days after the murder of Nichols, Mary Cowan was stabbed in the breast and back outside of the ’Elephant & Castle’ at 1am.
Inspector Chisholm investigated, and attempted to prosecute the attacker on a charge of attempted murder but had to admit to the court that ’friends of the prisoner were keeping the woman away from the court’.
You see, little cases like this are vital to our understanding of the East End of London in the LVP.
I believe that Mary Cowan was an ‘unfortunate’ and that the men involved in keeping her away from court were close friends of her attacker, who I do believe was her ‘pimp’.
That there was collusion and a genuine and real effort to defeat the ends of justice by the toughs of the East End when the attempted murder or murder of women happened in Whitechapel cannot be denied. This is the second case I have found so far, the first involving the 100 men who attacked a PC attempting to protect two women who had been viciously attacked outside of George Yard Buildings.
This is the East End folks.
Like it or lump it. |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1855
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 3:51 am: |
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AP,
Many thanks. Is it ok to mail you?
Monty
...and I said: "My name is 'Sue!' How do you do!
Now you're gonna die!!"
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Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 780
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 7:47 am: |
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Douglas says in his book Mindhunter that prior to the 1960's there were plenty of murders but most of them were solved. It was usually someone who knew the victim. Since then stranger murders have greatly escalated. They are much harder to solve.
Perhaps the JTR killings were unique in that 1) they involved serious mutilation and 2) the police couldn't catch the perpetrator. In fact, wasn't there a lot of hoopla in the press about the police being incompetent?
Either JTR was a complete creation of the media of the day and the murders were all committed by different people or JTR was the first recognized serial killer.
Since AP has done away with the "few murders in Whitechapel" theory we have to look at signature and the fact that there was no obvious candidate for the role of perpetrator, which, at that time, was apparently unusual.
Then you have to look at the reaction of the residents of Whitechapel and the people of London in general. If JTR was business as usual then why were there mobs of panicky people in the streets, why was the WVC formed, why were questions asked in Parliament, why did the Home Office get involved and even the Queen take an interest?
(Message edited by diana on September 08, 2005) |
Simon Owen
Inspector
Username: Simonowen
Post Number: 253
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 11:23 am: |
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Diana , you have made some excellent points.
Whereas murder or attempted murder may not have been uncommon in the East End of the LVP , I think (i) Stranger murder must have been pretty rare , at least in cases not involving robbery or theft as well (ii) serial murder must have been rare (iii) murder involving mutilation must have been rare (iv) murder involving the theft of bodily organs must have been rare , and (v) murder involving facial mutilation of the victim must have been rare.
At least in British murder , I don't think there is another case like the Ripper case : even the Yorkshire Ripper did not mutilate one of his victims similar to what happened to Mary Kelly.
Interestingly , there has been a fictional programme/thriller about a modern day serial killer on BBC1 recently , ' Messiah - the Harrowing '. It was extremely grisly , but nothing in the show came close to Jack's work ! |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4005
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 12:33 pm: |
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The Ripper murders were not at all uncommon or singular as far as mutilation is concerned. Murders involving serious mutilation had occurred before the Ripper in London.
As far as the mutilations are concerned, the so called Ripper murders were not something new in THAT respect. As far as later cases are concerned, we indeed do have other murders, displayiong even worse results than Mary kelly. Actually, compared to many modern cases, Jack's work is nothing.
What probably made the murders extraordinary and quite difficult to solve for the police, was that the perpetrator(s) was/were unknown to the victims (at least as popularly viewed) and that they were considered as a part of a series, performed by the same man. I think this pretty much baffled the police of the day, and the myth-making and hysteria created by the illustrated press and the news media didn't help their situation.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on September 08, 2005)
G. Andersson, writer/historian
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2478
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 1:33 pm: |
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No worries, Monty.
Always nice to get mail.
Yes, Diana raised some crucial points. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4955
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 5:03 pm: |
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AP asked me to post this.
SEPT 28th 1888
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2484
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 5:54 pm: |
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Thank you so much Robert.
We have to consider in this case that the killer - after dashing his wife’s brains out - put down the hammer, then picked up his knife and started slitting her throat, after that he put down the knife and picked up a razor… or the other way around.
Whatever, for any researcher to have ignored a case like this, and the seven others that I have found for September of 1888 alone in the ‘real’ East End of London is beyond the pale.
That is a month, not a year… or even three years.
Rumbelow claims the murder rate was one a year in the East End of London as a ‘whole’. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4956
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 6:36 pm: |
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AP, weird, weird case. To have the hammer, the knife, and the razor to hand suggests some pre-planning. Yet the man was manic, having to be held down by four policemen.
Robert
(Message edited by Robert on September 08, 2005) |
Harry Mann
Inspector
Username: Harry
Post Number: 180
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 09, 2005 - 6:05 am: |
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I believe Simon is relating to serial murder involving mutilation,and not mutilation murders of a singular nature. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2485
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 09, 2005 - 1:40 pm: |
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Yes, Robert, he was a madman and a murderer to boot. I've got another madman who slit his daughter's throat in the East End of London in September of 1888.
When asked why he did it, the eloquent reply was:
'It was the animals crawling under my skin.'
Harry, Simon...
all I'm doing is finding the murders of women in the East End of London in 1888.
Murders that were not there before.
I leave the dissection to you.
I'm just the killer. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2494
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 10, 2005 - 3:30 pm: |
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Robert
I've been reading more on the Bartlett murder, and it does appear that he also attempted to cut the ear off his victim, plus it seems that all the knife wounds were inflicted after the death blow from the hammer.
A fuller report of the injuries is available on the 6th October 1888. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4966
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 10, 2005 - 3:45 pm: |
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AP, I'm not so sure that the apparent suicide attempt wasn't just a blind - though he was crazy in one sense.
Robert |
Simon Owen
Inspector
Username: Simonowen
Post Number: 262
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 10, 2005 - 6:03 pm: |
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Yes , I was thinking of serial murders.
I think its something like 80% of all murders are committed by someone known to the victim - murder is often a domestic affair as in the case of the Bartletts above.
So , stranger killings are going to be reasonably rare - the Radcliffe Highway Murders of 1811 are a well-known example.
I imagine that a lot of stranger killings involve murdering someone so they cannot identify you later , as in the case of a robbery or a rape attack for instance. I think we can discount those here.
The Ripper murders are definitely sexually sadistic , but was this the motive for the crimes , or were the murders committed for another reason and the ' thrill aspect ' built up as time went on ?
Finally , the modus operandi of the killer changes after the ' Double Event ' - the Ripper changes from killing drunken old women to killing the relatively attractive Mary Kelly ( and indoors at that ). Thats got to be an oddity hasn't it ?
So - a stranger killing is rare , a stranger serial killer is rarer , a stranger serial killer killing with escalating mutilation of the victims must be rarer , a stranger serial killer taking bodily organs has got to be rarer , and a stranger serial killer who performs facial mutilations and performs the level of mutilation seen on Kelly must be rarer still.
So , imagining our killer to be a normal person from the streets , what kind of circumstances could create such a monster ? Maybe this is part of the fascination with the case - how was the Ripper made ? |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 942
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 10, 2005 - 6:15 pm: |
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Simon...
I liked the way you segued into this final sentence,sir..
"Maybe this is part of the fascination with the case - how was the Ripper made ?"
Sounds like a new thread from here...
...why not? |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 786
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 11, 2005 - 1:16 am: |
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See my new thread on Neurodevelopment of Psychopaths |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4015
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 11, 2005 - 6:43 am: |
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Simon,
OK, so you meant serial murders - that was absolutely not clear from your post since you separated serial murders there from your other points. Therefore I interpreted it as you you meant murders in general regarding the points where you only wrote 'murders'.
I don't agree with you that the Ripper murders are that rare in character, although they are not entirely common either. It is absolutely true that most murders are performed by someone known to the victim. But do keep in mind that we DO have domestic murders (not serial killer crimes) that are just as terrible as the one of Mary Kelly and I have seen at least one of two that are even worse (although her murder of course is grusesome enough, poor woman).
As for serial killers, we do have a lot of rather disturbing mutilating murders as well, and I personally think some of them are equally gruesome as the Ripper's although slightly different.
Not to be picky, Simon... but just one point to consider...:
"The Ripper murders are definitely sexually sadistic "
One should be cautious about these definitions.
The Ripper murders are definitely NOT 'sadistic'. A sadist is someone who gets off sexually by torturing the victim or subjecting her to physical and psychological pain prior to death. This is clearly not the Ripper - he killed his victims as quickly as possible and instead inflicted the injuries post mortem. Therefore the Ripper can't with any strength of the imagination be called sadistic, and that term is too often used in an incorrect way.
All the best
G. Andersson, writer/historian
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Maria Giordano
Inspector
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 457
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, September 11, 2005 - 10:22 am: |
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AP-
I had always marvelled at the assertion that in an area that poor, that cruel,there were no murders in the previous year. Thanks for doing the homework.
You've restored my faith in human nature.
Glenn is absolutely right about sexual sadism.
Mags
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2503
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 11, 2005 - 5:01 pm: |
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No worries, Maria
always nice to help, or hinder.
Regardless of the result there are a number of murders there that should not have been ignored by the researchers for so long.
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