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Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 578
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 6:55 pm: | 
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1) First canonical murder happened the night of the docks fire when firemen would have been out and about.
2) Eddowes said she knew who Jack was and proceeded to imitate a fire engine -- her spunky way of threatening to tell?
3) Would a prostitute be more likely to trust a fireman and go with him?
4) Would police be less likely to arrest or stop and question a fireman?
5) A knowledge of fire and how it works would have enabled him to build the superhot blaze in Kelly's room somehow, using only clothes. |
Stanley D. Reid
Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 39
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 11:07 pm: |
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Hi Diana
Sounds like as good a theory as any.
The biggest mystery to me in the case is why did the later victims continue to go off with these guys. I don't care how desperate they were for money, it wouldn't be worth being cut to pieces. And besides, from their pictures, it didn't look like they were missing any meals.
My pet theory, going by a dream in which I saw the Ripper, is that he was very young and thus non-threatening. But that's just me.
All the best,
Stan |
Helge Samuelsen
Police Constable
Username: Helge
Post Number: 1
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 3:33 am: |
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Hi everyone.
Eddowes imitated the fire engine during a drinking spell, and she was at that time obviously very drunk. She was a feisty one, not afraid to be the center of attention once in a while. It is impossible to draw any conclusions from this episode. One explanation could be that she witnessed the great dock fires before, for example.
The story about her knowing the Ripper was told by the superintendent of Shoe Lane casual ward. I think she may wery well have said something to that effect, but how likely is it that she actually knew the Ripper?
Consider that both Eddowes and Kelly had been unsuccessfull in their hop picking that year ("we didn`t get on any too well and started to hoof it home"), and both were "done up for cash".
So much so that Eddowes pawned Kellys new boots to buy food, tea and sugar.
After a meal and further drink the pair was penniless again, and Eddowes said she would ask her daughter in Bermondsey for money.
The problem with this is that her daughter, Annie, was in the habit of moving without forwarding her adress to stay away from Eddowes and her scrounging. At the time she actually did not live in Bermondsey, and it seems reasonable to suggest that Eddowes must have known this.
Indeed she never went to Bermondsey.
More importantly, if she really believed she could get the reward money for pointing out Jacky, why this new scheme?
I therefore propose that both the "plan" to get the reward money for the Ripper, and the "plan" to visit her daughter Annie was desperate (and impossible) attempts to plan a way out of a despairing situation, the result of a sort of denial to face reality.
Even though Eddowes probably never really believed in these schemes herself. It was just talk.
Sorry, this is no intriguing and exciting hypothesis, but then reality seldom is.
Poor Catherine! For what it is worth at least Kelly seemed to treat her better that Conway ever did. But, as must have been the case many times before (conjecture), Eddowes probably decided that in the real world her only chance to get her next meal was to solicit the streets.
Tough world, tough luck, her next customer was Jacky.
I have done some..umm..scientific research regarding burning clothes in fireplaces. One experiment made a neighbour come over to ask if my chimney was on fire. Certain clothes burn with a LOT of heat. No fireman needed to get that started.
Luckily no fireman was needed to put it out in my little experiment either!
Helge
Fascinating! (Mr Spock raises an eyebrow)
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Maria Giordano
Inspector
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 360
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 11:59 am: |
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Helge is probably right.
There were,what, 20,000 prostitutes in Whitechapel? To a starving person the odds of being a victim probably look pretty long.
Mags
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Gary Alan Weatherhead
Chief Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 706
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 5:15 am: |
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Hi Diana
You make some interesting connections.
Without taking a position on your point, it is worth pointing out that one of the cardinal signs of a serial killer "may" be that he is a pyromaniac and/or fascinated by fire from an early age. These people tend to become involved in voluntary firework.
Then again serial killers are said to be fascinated with police work but can rarely pass the police psychological profiling test. One of the questions used to be something along the lines of "Would you ever think for a moment of robbing a Brinks truck if you knew you could get away with it?" If a person answered "never" the psychologists who analyzed the test would know that he was lying since that is not a normal human response from an honest person.
Perhaps Kate thought the killer was a fireman and in a drunken spree was giving away her secret. Maybe she was right and maybe she was wrong. Nevertheless she went down a dark alley with a man she must have trusted and was butchered.
Profiling can lead you in a lot of different directions; but it has its place in studying serial killers.
All The Best
Gary |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 966
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 1:26 pm: |
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We have to get rid of some of our modern ideas and think like Victorians here.
Fire-watching was a common entertainment in this period. Before television and radio, people turn to real-life tragedy for entertainment. Even years later, look at the crowds that came out to see Crystal Palace go up in flames. So, a lot of people would have been out and about the night of the dock fires and would have been fascinated by the steam-generated power of a fire engine.
I assume London had a standing fire department by 1888, as opposed to relying on volunteers. However, fire fighting was not nearly so sophisticated the as now. It's unlikely that a Victorian fire-firghter would have any more technical knowledge of fire than the average person who relied on fire for heat, light, cooking, and power.
All in all, fire itself was much more common then than now. I don't think we should see any significance in the role it plays in these murders.
Andy S.
(Message edited by Aspallek on August 23, 2005) |
Frank van Oploo
Chief Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 747
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 8:59 am: |
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Hi Andy,
Although you've given us some interesting insights into fire-watching fighting, fire-fighting and the general use of fire of Jack's day, I don't think it has any bearing on Alan's point that serial killers generally seem to like fire.
As a fire-fighter he would most probably get to see more flames than the average person, regardless of how the fire department was organized and how much technical knowledge the average fire-fighter of those days actually had.
Nevertheless, interesting info you put forward.
All the best,
Frank
"There's gotta be a lot of reasons why I shouldn't shoot you, but right now I can't think of one."
- Clint Eastwood, in 'The Rookie' (1990)
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Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 982
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 12:21 pm: |
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Hi Frank,
I was responding to Diana's post at the top of this thread. I think she was wondering if these clues meant that JtR might have been a firefighter. Incidentally, in the steam age a "fireman" was a person who stoked a steam boiler with coal. "Firefighter" I believe is the proper term for someone who put fires out.
Andy S. |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 749
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 4:24 am: |
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All through my youth in the 50s and 60s firefighters were called "firemen" in the UK - I thought they still are!!! Newspaper headlines "Firemen Strike!!" Firefighter sounds like PC speak to me!!
I think this whole fire "thing" is a red-herring. Didn't someone write a book in which Edward VII's liking to dress up as a fireman played a major part?? It's on the shelves somewhere.
I think the fire on the night of Nichols' murder might prove a context for that killing - although (so far as we know) it had nothing to do with her being where she was that night. The murderer might have been returning from watching the fires.
But I see no connection if Tabram, and the earlier attempts are ascribed to Jack.
Phil |
Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 2886
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 2:38 pm: |
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Hi,
Fireman Sam was a firefighter. If it was on kids TV it must be true.
I assume firefighter is therefore an americanism?
Jenni
ps when he hears the fire bell chime Fireman Sam is there on time...
"You know I'm not gonna diss you on the Internet
Cause my momma taught me better than that."
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4882
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 6:52 pm: |
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Jenni, I think that was when they brought firefighter Penny in. There was none of that firefighter business before she turned up.
Someone could be in a jam
So hurry, hurry Firefighter Sam
Doesn't scan!
Robert |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 987
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 10:32 am: |
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I didn't mean to quibble on the differentiation between the terms "fireman" and "firefighter." I don't know what contemporary UK usage is. In America the more "correct" term is "firefighter" just as "stewardesses" are now "flight attendants." The latter is a PC thing, I'm sure. But with "firefighter" I'm not so sure since there are comparatively very few female firefighters due to the physical requirements that are needed in order to qualify.
The point I was trying to make (quite unsuccessfully I might add) is that in the steam era, at least in America, a "fireman" was first and foremost a person who was responsible for stoking a boiler furnace. On US railroads, the position of "fireman" continued long after automatic coal augers were in use and even well into the diesel era because pressure from the labor unions prevented the elimination of even this obsolete position.
It's only a minor point.
Andy S.
(Message edited by Aspallek on August 29, 2005) |
Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 2890
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 4:15 pm: |
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Andy,
don't worry, we weren't having a go ( any way to mention kids TV and I'm happy!). What you say about firemen on trains seems to ring a bell with me.
I don't know what the Victorian term for a firefighter was,
Jenni
(Message edited by jdpegg on August 29, 2005)
"You know I'm not gonna diss you on the Internet
Cause my momma taught me better than that."
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4890
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 6:53 pm: |
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Amazingly enough, this is from 1937.
Robert |
Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 2894
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 4:12 am: |
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Hello,
don't tell me Fireman Sam is wrong!>?
Jenni
"You know I'm not gonna diss you on the Internet
Cause my momma taught me better than that."
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Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 989
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 5:33 pm: |
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Vindicated! 
And now I must add some meaningless words so that I can post this.
Andy S.
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